Hello all; I'm with Jim McK. It's hard to have too much information--maybe too much duplication, and sometimes too much irrelevancy, but better more than less... like food when company comes. Yes, it takes time to sort it. Problems either way...too much or too little. The former is easier to correct. The other way, one doesn't know what's missing or where to look for it. I enjoyed this skein also. Adam in Glenview, IL USDA Z 5a Comfortable today at 75 F. ----- Original Message ----- From: <pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:00 AM Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 31, Issue 11 > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: pbs Digest, Vol 31, Issue 10--derivation of El Cacomite > (Adam Fikso) > 2. Re: cochineal (Liz Waterman) > 3. Re: Tigridia pavonia & cochineal (Alberto Castillo) > 4. tigridia to cacomite (Adam Fikso) > 5. Off Topic: Cochineal (Brook Klehm) > 6. kermes (Carol Jensen) > 7. Tigridia, cochineal, kermes, Aztecs, Mixtecs, ocelots, > cacomistles (Jim McKenney) > 8. Herbertia and Calydorea (Osmani Baullosa) > 9. tigridia (Arnold Trachtenberg) > 10. Re: Off Topic: Cochineal (Dennis Kramb) > 11. Re: kermes (Dennis Kramb) > 12. Re: tigridia (Dennis Kramb) > 13. Re: Off Topic: Cochineal (Jane McGary) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:53:24 -0500 > From: "Adam Fikso" <irisman@ameritech.net> > Subject: Re: [pbs] pbs Digest, Vol 31, Issue 10--derivation of El > Cacomite > To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <000701c5a027$8542bf80$5ad8fea9@FAMILY> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > The Nahuatl name may not refer to the ocelot (although it may) but is > nearly > identical to cacomistle which is a raccoon like animal unrelated to the > ocelot and not spotted. Another example of a confused etymology > misconfigured of out ignorance of native cultures? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org> > To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 11:00 AM > Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 31, Issue 10 > > >> Send pbs mailing list submissions to >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:57:33 -0700 > From: Liz Waterman <lizwat@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [pbs] cochineal > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <42FE348D.7010408@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Here is a wiki page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochineal/ > > Jim McKenney wrote: > >>Yes, John, but it seems to be more confusing than that. >> >>Both kermes and cochineal come from scale insects. Kermes, as you note, >>has >>an ancient history in Old World: as the saying goes, and as you note, the >>Greeks had a word for it. >> >>The dye from the New World scale insects (cochineal) is much more readily >>and profitably collected than kermes. And some think that the color is >>better. >> >>Doesn't the word cochineal refer specifically to the product obtained from >>the New World scale cultivated by the Aztecs and exploited so successfully >>by the Spanish? The cochineal trade in Europe is probably nearly five >>hundred years old: like the Tigridia, cochineal must have been one of the >>first of the new things to arrive in Europe from the New World. >> >>Jim McKenney >>Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we are all red faced >>this morning, and it has nothing to do with either embarrassment or >>cochineal: it's the nearly unbearable heat and humidity. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>pbs mailing list >>pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >>http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:09:14 +0000 > From: "Alberto Castillo" <ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Tigridia pavonia & cochineal > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <BAY20-F7269886965288ACC4B044AEBF0@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed > > Dear all: > As we all know Spanish invaders were not notoriously dedicated > to > the natural sciences. They were pretty satisfied with giving a name to so > many new animals of all kinds they found in America (of course all of > these > animals were unknown to them). Thus, they called rheas ostriches, tinamous > partridges and besides many others, they named the powerful feline found > from Mexico to Argentina, "tiger", because it had a few features in common > with the tiger they knew or heard of. That was enough for them! Of course, > a > tiger is striped, lives in Asia, etc., etc. The name jaguar is South > American and the aztecs and other Mexicans did not give that name to the > jaguar. It had little importance if the spots were stripes, rings or > donuts, > to the Spanish it was a tiger and Tigridia the plant was. > As for cochinilla, it may with good probability refer to the fact > that scale insects are fat and plump, for cochinilla sounds more derived > from "piglet". > Cacomite sounds strange and "little Mexican" because it is a > Spanish form of the original cacmiTL. This really sounds nahuatl. Tigridia > pavonia was widely used as food roasted in the embers. It seems many > tigridioids are edible (as crocuses are) and Herbertia lahue is much > exploited in its native Chile for the same purpose and use and is becoming > very rare. > Best > Alberto > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Amor: busca tu ? naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:34:57 -0500 > From: "Adam Fikso" <irisman@ameritech.net> > Subject: [pbs] tigridia to cacomite > To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <000901c5a035$b4d02d60$5ad8fea9@FAMILY> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > reply-type=original > > My Merriam -ebster (1935) gives cacomistle as derivd from the Nahuatl > word > "tlacomiztli" for the animal we call cacomistle. This does not necessarily > invalidate the other derivation pertaining to the ocelot. The Aztecs > probably didn't classify animals as we do, lumping things together that we > would separate, f. i. in Arabic there are few words for flower, and some > authorities indicate only one word, i.e., susan, (soft "s" sounded as > shushan) which can cover everything from irises to snapdragons unless > you're an Arabic botanist, or use a native non-Arabic dialect word. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:32:41 -0700 > From: Brook Klehm <bklehm@comcast.net> > Subject: [pbs] Off Topic: Cochineal > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <280ea7608e2ca5519844fee943449b2e@comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > >> Doesn't the word cochineal refer specifically to the product obtained >> from >> the New World scale cultivated by the Aztecs and exploited so >> successfully >> by the Spanish? > > Am I splitting hairs? > > Cochineal was not exploited by the Aztecs, but by the Mixtecs. In > fact, the Mixtecs were never subjugated by the Aztecs, instead, they > entered into a commercial relationship with the Aztecs. They were > able to keep their noble class and social structures, probably due to > the power they derived from the cochineal trade. The Mixtecs were > barely subjugated by the Spanish when they arrived. The Oaxacan > highlands were conquered much later than the central highlands of > Mexico. Once again, the Mixtecs continued their cochineal trade and > maintained their social structures (the nobles became caciques -- > indigenous strongmen) even after being conquered. It was only after > the loss of the secret of cochineal production and the loss of their > topsoil due to growing maize that the Mixtecs finally floundered. > Now, the middle elevations of the Mixtec region of Oaxaca are > completely stripped of soil and are landscapes of eroded gullies of > richly colored, barren, mineral subsoils. The people who inhabit the > area are frighteningly impoverished. > > On a further tangent, the British redcoats who enforced the King's > wishes prior to the US revolution wore coats dyed red with... > cochineal. > > Too much information? If so, please forgive me. > > Brook Klehm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:58:50 +0200 > From: Carol Jensen <jorna@mobilixnet.dk> > Subject: [pbs] kermes > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20050813215535.01e83ec0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > The kermes you refer to is a louse. But in Danish the pokeweed that is > native to the southern states is called kermesb?r (kermes berry) and was > used as fruit colors up to about 1900. After the Civil war, poor people > used the pokeweed berries to make red ink, as they had no ink. > > (Also too much knowledge. The pokeweed grows beautifully here in Denmark.) > > Carol > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:52:29 -0400 > From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney@starpower.net> > Subject: [pbs] Tigridia, cochineal, kermes, Aztecs, Mixtecs, ocelots, > cacomistles > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <4as4s5$2641sr@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Too much information? Never! > > Thanks John, Alberto, Brook, Adam, Carol, Liz, Dennis, Osmani - sorry if I > have forgotten anyone - for your contributions to this thread. > > Are we a great team, or what? > > Jim McKenney > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:43:36 -0700 (PDT) > From: Osmani Baullosa <osmani_baullosa@yahoo.com> > Subject: [pbs] Herbertia and Calydorea > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <20050814024336.15736.qmail@web30514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > It seems many > tigridioids are edible (as crocuses are) and Herbertia lahue is much > exploited in its native Chile for the same purpose and use and is becoming > very rare. > Best > Alberto > > Yes, they eat the Herbertia lahue here. And Calydorea xiphioides is also > edible. Both of them are almost extinct :---( due to causes like this... > > Perhaps people do that when they get angry (not hungry) because the > flowers only last one day... :-) > > Cheers, > > Osmani > > > > --------------------------------- > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:02:15 -0400 > From: Arnold Trachtenberg <arnold@nj.rr.com> > Subject: [pbs] tigridia > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <42FF40D7.7080906@nj.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Grown by Ellen Hornig in Upstate New York. > > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… > > Arnold > New Jersey > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:28:30 -0400 > From: Dennis Kramb <dkramb@badbear.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Off Topic: Cochineal > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050814102558.01adbe80@pop.bizland.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >>Too much information? If so, please forgive me. > > Not for me! I've found this to be one of the most entertaining threads in > quite some time. It's (very nearly) combining two favorite things: > irises > + aztecs. > > As for Herbertia lahue being native to Chile... I thought that it was > native to Texas! Is this a different species, or one that is actually > Pan-American ? > > Dennis in Cincinnati > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:29:38 -0400 > From: Dennis Kramb <dkramb@badbear.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] kermes > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050814102901.01af0e10@pop.bizland.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed > > At 03:58 PM 8/13/2005, you wrote: >>The kermes you refer to is a louse. But in Danish the pokeweed that is >>native to the southern states is called kermesb?r (kermes berry) and was >>used as fruit colors up to about 1900. After the Civil war, poor people >>used the pokeweed berries to make red ink, as they had no ink. >> >>(Also too much knowledge. The pokeweed grows beautifully here in Denmark.) > > > In a few weeks my car will be painted pokeweed red courtesy of the birds. > LOL. > > Dennis in Cincinnati where the pokeweed grows thick! > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:32:15 -0400 > From: Dennis Kramb <dkramb@badbear.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] tigridia > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050814103053.01ae6598@pop.bizland.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 09:02 AM 8/14/2005, you wrote: >>Grown by Ellen Hornig in Upstate New York. > > WHOA!!! That is too cool. I have one with similar colors, but totally > different pattern. Mine has random stripes of the peachy-pinky colors. > > I like Ellen's *much* better than mine. > > Dennis in Cincy > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:22:31 -0700 > From: Jane McGary <janemcgary@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Off Topic: Cochineal > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050814081858.010fe370@mail.earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Not having a Nahuatl dictionary on the shelf -- my Native American > linguistic studies were well to the north of that -- I won't attempt to > answer the cacomitl query (though I could ask someone else if it's > crucial), but I can reply to Dennis's comment, > "As for Herbertia lahue being native to Chile... I thought that it was >>native to Texas! Is this a different species, or one that is actually >>Pan-American ? > > In "Bulbs of North America," Michael Chelednik writes: "This species > occurs > in heavy soils of coastal prairies in Louisiana and Texas but also in > southeastern South America, a curious distribution shared by a number of > bulbous plants including Habranthus tubispathus and Zephyranthes > chlorosolen; it has been speculated that all these were introduced from > South America, possibly by early Spanish missionaries." > > Jane McGary > Northwestern Oregon, USA > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 31, Issue 11 > ***********************************