At 11:23 AM 7/30/2004 -0700, John Ingram wrote: >When planting, plant deep, 6-8" below the >soil line to the top of the graft union. This does >double duty. First, herbaceous roots cannot grow that >far. So, it does not allow them to take off. If they >are planted shallowly like other peonies, the >herbaceous growth will surpass the tree graft and >thus, all will be lost. Second, it forces the tree >graft to produce it's own roots. My experience prompts me to disagree strongly with this advice, although I'll agree up-front that it is advice often given. Yes, it's true that we want to do everything possible to enhance the growth of the tree peony scion. One of the important things to do for newly acquired grafted tree peonies is to encourage the herbaceous stock. If it does not take hold and grow well, the tree peony scion is doomed. In fact, you want the herbaceous roots to take off, take hold and grow vigorously. Those are the only roots the scion/stock unit will have during the first season. If you think tree peony scions are itching to root into the ground on their own, you have not grown many tree peonies! Furthermore, the herbaceous stocks used to graft tree peonies rarely have buds for vegetative growth. Indeed, it would make a huge difference in the propagation of herbaceous peonies if they did. It is true that buds for herbaceous growth do sometimes appear years down the road, but in newly joined stocks and scions, I'll bet they are pretty rare, if only because no propagator paying attention to what is going on would use such a stock. Thus, it's extremely unlikely that the herbaceous stock will overwhelm the tree peony scion during the first season. And when you say: >Second, it forces the tree >graft to produce it's own roots. my response is that it does nothing of the sort. In fact, if it forces the tree peony scion to do anything with any high level of predictability, it forces it to die. Tree peonies scions are not like coleus cuttings; they produce roots very deliberately. Even plants which have been in the ground for several seasons will often have very few tree peony roots. While it may seem very desirable to have tree peonies on their own roots, don't rush the process. It takes time and patience. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I have not seen any basketballs under my tree peonies, but I think there may be a soccer ball or two. >Jim M, > >When you said: > >"Now this is getting interesting. In recent years, >Chinese-grown tree >peonies have appeared in local shops. Generally they >are less expensive >than the Japanese-grown plants (and they appear to be >different >cultivars). >The Chinese plants are bigger, twiggier plants than >the Japanese-grown >plants, which typically are little more than a scion >and stock stuck >together. Those Chinese plants are very tempting. When >you unpack them, >they seem to be a much better deal than the >Japanese-grown plants. >There >are often multiple stems and a superficially much >better developed root >system. " > >Rick actually said of Chinese imports: > >"The plants are ruthlessly trimmed of all the small >roots and out growing roots, leaving only a few down >growing main roots. My Oregon State inspector said >this is for two reasons. Number 1, is to take off any >roots that have been infected by soil bugs, namely >nematodes and symphylans. The presence of both are >readily seen as root knots on the young roots. I have >seen plants so badly infected that it looked like the >root had marbles inside. If you strip these roots >off, then no one can see that the plants are infected. >Number 2, is that if you take away all the small roots >the plant is far less likely to rot or mold in >transit. My inspector said that he sees this with >bare root roses from China too. >After all this trimming, they put the smallest amount >of moss in the middle of the roots and pack in plastic >bags with 5 rubber bands. This promotes mold >where the plastic touches the root. >In '01, I had to destroy a whole shipment of 3000 >plants that had mountains of mold. My inspector was >so excited because he said that there were so many >kinds of mold, many that he had never seen." > >And about Japanese varieties: > >"For the last two years I have been ordering through a >different vendor from Japan. These plants are huge, >packed bulk, one layer of plants then a thick layer of >moss, and so on. The plants are NOT TRIMMED AT ALL. >The best part is that 98% grow out in the spring. I >can send you a price list from our best vendor if you >like. The proof is in the pudding. When I put the >plants from different vendors side to side, there is >no comparison." > >As far as roots and grafting, most tree varieties are >increased by grafting onto herbaceous roots. This >serves several purposes. First, the tree peony roots >are not as strong of growers as the herbaceaous ones. >So, if you wanted to grow tree peonies on their own >roots, you would be waiting some time for the cuttings >to form a sizeable enough root structure to be >marketable. But, the Chinese are master gardeners when >it comes to their prize plants. So, they take their >time and wait, and thus, the prices go up with it. >But, there are ways to remove the herbaceous root from >the tree peony. Rick, again, was kind enough to tell >me his trick for such an act with minimal impact on >the plant. When planting, plant deep, 6-8" below the >soil line to the top of the graft union. This does >double duty. First, herbaceous roots cannot grow that >far. So, it does not allow them to take off. If they >are planted shallowly like other peonies, the >herbaceous growth will surpass the tree graft and >thus, all will be lost. Second, it forces the tree >graft to produce it's own roots. >Now, to the trade secret. Get a very strong piece of >metal wire. Use it like a twist-tie and put it right >at the union of the tree stem and herbaceous root and >tie securely. So, when the herbaceous root starts to >expand, it slowly girdles itself and does not allow >the tree to get more food from it. Thus, it forces the >tree to produce it's own roots to compensate for it. >So, over the years, you will have a tree peony growing >on it's own root system. > >Now, about the names, I will go with the irony of old >translaters and say that they are great. Even if they >were meant to be sarcastic, they are very artistic and >sometimes quite descriptive in their own right. > > >===== >John Ingram in L.A., CA. >http://www.floralarchitecture.com/ check it out >Floralartistry2000@yahoo.com >310.709.1613 (cell, west coast time, please call accordingly. Thank you) >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >