Thanks for the additional info, Tom. Jo Canning -----Original Message----- From: pbs <pbs-bounces@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> On Behalf Of Tim Eck Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 5:49 PM To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> Subject: Re: [pbs] Question regarding commercial advertising I would suspect this is the Canadian case you refer to: https://monsanto.com/company/media/… Tim Eck > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net] On Behalf > Of Tim Eck > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 8:38 PM > To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' > Subject: Re: [pbs] Question regarding commercial advertising > > Jo-Ann, > This (in part) is what Monsanto had to say on the subject: > > "Since 1997, we have only filed suit against farmers 147 times in the > United States. This may sound like a lot, but when you consider that > we sell seed to more than 325,000 American farmers a year, it’s really > a small number. Of these, we’ve proceeded through trial with only nine > farmers. All nine cases were found in Monsanto’s favor." > > A very small number of farmers involved in patent infringement cases > with Monsanto have sought publicity around their cases, and have > characterized the company’s actions in a negative light. In some other > situations, outside parties have portrayed particular cases > negatively. We take exception to any misleading allegation of > wrong-doing. Our employees and contractors respect our customers and their property." > > > Apparently, the case you mention could only be one of these nine cases > that went to court so it shouldn't be hard to find. The anti-Monsanto > propaganda was much more prevalent on the web. > > Thanks > Tim Eck > > “Time is nature’s way of preventing everything from happening at once.” > Anon. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net] On > > Behalf Of Jo&Greg > > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 3:47 PM > > To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' > > Subject: Re: [pbs] Question regarding commercial advertising > > > > Tim, with due respect, that was not the case. > > Monsanto's original claim was that of willful intent to steal, but > > when it was obvious it would not go forward because the defendant > > proved in pre-trial > he > > did not know his seed had been infected, and the infection of his > > seed was undesirable ... he was an organic grain farmer. So the > > Monsanto lawyers narrowed the legal argument to usage, not willful > > intent to steal or profit, a de facto crime whether or not intended, > > and that was how the company > won > > the case. And I read the judge's statement. More importantly, I read > > his comments, which the federal judge also specifically asked to be > > published in Canadian media ... to wit ... that he (the judge) felt > > the issue was a miscarriage of justice, that he was constrained to > > find against the farmer, who was now bankrupt largely because of the > > ruining of his grain, only because his power as a judge was limited > > to a ruling that fell ONLY within > the > > legal wording in the complaint. He said the Monsanto lawyers were > > very careful to word their complaint just so, and so they won. The > > judge said in words of one syllable that the farmer was right, and > > further that Monsanto had used its power to destroy a farmer and > > send a message to all who disagreed. He said that if he were able in > > some legal way, he would have > not > > only found against Monsanto, but forced them to pay all the legal > > costs, pay back the farmer for lost harvest, and levied fines > > against the company as large a fine as Canadian jurisprudence could allow. > > > > So, whatever side of the GMO fence one lives one, I agree, Tom ... > > be > careful > > of only reading only what you already agree with. > > Jo-Ann Canning > > Vancouver Island > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pbs <pbs-bounces@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> On Behalf Of > > Tim Eck > > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:00 PM > > To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> > > Subject: Re: [pbs] Question regarding commercial advertising > > > > It's worth mentioning that "the horrible Monsanto cases" were > > decided > based > > on the willful intent and action of a farmer to steal the RoundUp > > Ready > gene > > from a neighbor's pollen source and breed his own RoundUp Ready seed > > without compensating Monsanto. It's so easy to buy into > > villainizing propaganda when you only get your information from "like-minded people". > > > > Tim Eck > > > > “Time is nature’s way of preventing everything from happening at once.” > > Anon. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net] On > > > Behalf Of Jo&Greg > > > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 12:43 PM > > > To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' > > > Subject: Re: [pbs] Question regarding commercial advertising > > > > > > Perhaps a note or two regarding patented plants may help. My > > > comments come from my experience with publishing, and copyright > > > info in both USA and Canada ... copyright is slightly different > > > yet using the same underlying principles as a patent. > > > "Resale" and "propagation" and "commercial" all refer to > > > for-profit > > business. > > > Non-profit organizations can offer books, plants, seed, etc., for > > > sale without crossing copyright -- and as far as I've found out -- > > > patent regulations. Plant patents are also legally suspect. You > > > cannot patent a recipe or technique and the horrible Monsanto > > > cases against the grain farmers aside, some feel the change in the > > > plant is more like a recipe shift than something new or unique > > > (the DNA is not fundamentally changed), and natural self-sowing or > > > seed drift from > natural > > sources are outside the purview of an intent to retail a product. > > > That said, plants can at present be patented. > > > > > > So, I'd go ahead and have that plant sale and seed swap. And > > > remember, though we are not a group of veggies farmers, when it comes to Big Hort: > > > "Control my food, control my politics, control distribution, > > > control my > > politics." > > > Just my old-hippie-somewhat-anarchistic opinion. > > > Jo Canning > > > Vancouver Island, Canada > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: pbs <pbs-bounces@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> On Behalf Of > > > Jan Jeddeloh > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 4:10 PM > > > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> > > > Subject: Re: [pbs] Question regarding commercial advertising > > > > > > While we’re griping about Big Horticulture I’d like to add my > > > gripe about patented plants. I’ve been stung too often by > > > patented pretty faces and have learned that a patent does not > > > necessarily reflect the value or grow-ability of the plant, > > > although it seems like it ought to. Too often big nurseries > > > patent every tiny variation and rush the plant to market. > > > Sometimes it appears they apply for a patent just to lock up the > > > market for a year or two and then stop producing the plant once > > > the word gets out that it’s not a good doer. You go to the > > > nursery, are smitten with the pretty face, bring home your new plant whereupon it promptly dies. I’ve had this experience several times. > > > And don’t get me started on the million heucheras or coneflowers > > > out there. They are sold as perennials but most have an annual > > > life in your normal, less than perfect home garden. You know, the > > > home garden > > that does not have the mythical well drained, evenly moist soil. > > > > > > Patented plant are also becoming a problem for plant society plant > > > sales. I organize our NARGS chapter participation in the > > > Hortlandia sale and we have to watch that we don’t offer patented > > > plants. As more and more plants are patented it will become > > > harder to find plants we can propagate. Yes growing from seed it > > > great but many of our members want to donate divisions and cutting > > > grown plants. Plant tags get lost and it would be very easy to > > > inadvertently offer a patented plant > for > > sale. > > > > > > I realize plant breeders want to get some kind of return from > > > their investment of time and money but it shouldn’t be too much to > > > ask that the plants be good doers and truly unique. They should > > > also be adequately trailed. One or two years is just not enough. > > > I have found a couple of patented plants that are worth growing. > > > Geranium “Roxanne” blooms all summer, does not spit seed all over and is tough. > > > Salvia “Amistad”, while tender, puts on a great summer show and is > > > much beloved by bees and hummingbirds. It also seems rather silly > > > to patent plants that will self propagated. If it’s going to form > > > a big clump you can easily hack apart gardeners are going to share > > > it around. This takes no real skill. If you want to patent a > > > plant it ought to > > require a bit of skill to propagate or you will lose the battle of > > controlling its propagation. > > > > > > To bring this back around to bulbs does anyone know of any > > > patented bulbs? I know Terra Nova at one point had applied for a > > > patent on a Cyclamen coum selection with a Christmas tree marking on the leaves. > > > I wonder if this was denied because it wouldn’t be hard to find > > > look a likes in many groups of coum seedlings. It’s not in their current catalog. > > > > > > Jan Jeddeloh > > > > On Jun 20, 2018, at 9:59 AM, Jane McGary > > > > <janemcgary@earthlink.net> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I've been purchasing plants and bulbs for about 35 years now. > > > > I'm fortunate > > > to live in Clackamas County, Oregon, which has more nurseries than > > > any other US county, so "local" can mean anything from a daphne at > > > the > > farmers' > > > market to a viburnum from the big Monrovia fields on the other > > > side of the river. I buy some unusual cultivars and rooted > > > cuttings for cutflowers by mail order, mostly from specialty > > > nurseries. Most years I obtain some commercial bulbs for planting > > > out in front of the house > > > -- daffodils to distract the bulb fly from the good ones in back, > > > anemones > > and crocuses for the bulb lawn, etc. > > > Almost all of my bulb "collection" has been grown from seed. > > > > > > > > I agree with Robin that there's false advertising by large > > > > commercial > > > nurseries, but small ones do so as well, especially in > > > exaggerating > > > cold- hardiness. They may not mean to, but if you're growing > > > plants on an island you don't have the same conditions as most of > > > your customers who live 150 km or more inland. Conversely, > > > nurseries in colder areas who keep all their stock in greenhouses > > > may produce plants that are hard to acclimate to outdoor > > > conditions anywhere. Growing your own from seed is likely to > > > result in losses, but the survivors will be easier to > keep, > > and much cheaper. > > > > > > > > Two years ago I had the experience Ellen mentions of buying a > > > > shrub that > > > had been bulked up by keeping two cuttings in one pot, but I got > > > it at the farmers' market and the grower told me about it. It's a > > > hybrid daphne; I was able to disentangle the root systems, potted > > > them separately for a couple of months before planting out, and > > > now have two very fine shrubs. This spring I went on a spending > > > spree on Dianthus cultivars. One nursery sent me excellent plants, > > > but another's plants had been in their pots far too long (I > > > repotted them and waited until they recovered to plant them out). > > > I almost never put a purchased plant into the garden the day after > > > I get it. For one thing, you > > have to watch them for disease. > > > > > > > > As for bulbs that fail, it helps to understand the growth > > > > cycles, natural > > > habitats, and structure of the particular species and genera. > > > Bulbs with strong tunics, such as tulips, can stand dry storage > > > much better than those without tunics, such as most Fritillaria. A > > > species native to rocky desert will survive storage better than > > > one native to river meadows. A species native to the alpine zone > > > may not flourish without a long winter dormancy (hence the plants > > > "hardy in Denver" that can't be grown in lowland gardens). It is > > > also instructive to learn how commercial bulbs are grown and > > > processed in the Netherlands, where they can be grown in sand, > > > heavily fertilized, protected from predators, lifted and kept in > > > warehouses controlled for temperature and humidity, and exported > > > in advantageous condition. After a month at Home Depot and > > > transfer to a home garden, they'll likely perform for a year but > > > that may be the limit of their adaptability. Moreover, controlled > > > conditions can suppress the activity of viruses, which may > > > resurface in the home garden; that's why all my tulips are grown > > > from > seed, > > and I buy lily bulbs only from The Lily Garden, which I trust to > > provide clean stock. > > > > > > > > So read, read, read, and be prepared to lose some plants anyway. > > > > You can > > > identify an experienced gardener by their possession of a big bag > > > of plantless labels. > > > > > > > > Jane McGary > > > > > > > > Portland, Oregon, USA > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > pbs mailing list > > > > pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net > > > > http://lists.pacificbulbsociety.net/cgi-bin/… > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > pbs mailing list > > > pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net > > > http://lists.pacificbulbsociety.net/cgi-bin/… > > > > > > > > > --- > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > > https://www.avg.com/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > pbs mailing list > > > pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net > > > http://lists.pacificbulbsociety.net/cgi-bin/… > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net > > http://lists.pacificbulbsociety.net/cgi-bin/… > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net > > http://lists.pacificbulbsociety.net/cgi-bin/… > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net > http://lists.pacificbulbsociety.net/cgi-bin/… _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net http://lists.pacificbulbsociety.net/cgi-bin/… _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net http://lists.pacificbulbsociety.net/cgi-bin/…