_____ From: Kathryn Kennedy [mailto:Kathryn.Kennedy@mobot.org] Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 5:17 AM To: meneice@att.net; jocelyn616@earthlink.net; Emmy Seymour; Ann Coburn; ladeenm@gmail.com; Diana Neely; Patricia Schleuning Subject: RE: [pbs] Saving Endangered Plants I hate that this perception is out there when I think CPC has tried to navigate this delicate subject. It saddens me to think that our devoted conservation horticulturists who are so professional and work so hard to understand and recover these plants (so that we CAN make them more widely available someday) are so misunderstood. I hope we are and will be the bridge between horticultural research, popular horticulture, and conservation! You know we do encourage use of all nonessential core material to facilities for education, etc. AND we have supported and encouraged approval of some FWS applications for commercial development of some species where doing so is not a danger to the wild and the material is abundant enough to make it possible (including cacti, bromeliads, orchids, some salvias (which later became a cultivar problem in Texas) and others--and that " must benefit the recovery of the species" requirement of commercial FWS permits is pretty broad..it includes promoting appreciation of the species! One thing we WANT to do is get everyone to see and enjoy these materials and identify with them in a way that does not harm them and helps the commercial sector and enthusiasts understand how delicate and rigorous restoration work actually is. This education is so important before we could envision an army of effective amateur restorationists helping us in a widespread way. Commercialization does have real risks...including increasing the threat of irresponsible overcollection and damage in the wild of the few existing delicate sites remainng because of creating a wider market of interest in the plants, people deriving material in cultivation so that it no longer has the wild adapted traits desired and could present genetic risk to wild populations, etc., and compassionate enthusiasts with too low an understanding of the habitat specificity and considerations doing informal "jonny appleseed" reintroductions in areas where they can do harm to the target species or others in the area (and damage the reputation of horticulturists, gardeners, and serious botanical gardens everywhere with the state and federal resource agencies). The wariness of state and federal agencies of horticulturists getting involved in conservation has arisen directly from these experiences, not from elitism or over-control. I myself have seen these very harmful practices and effects...every one of them...in my work over the years. So part of that "uptightness" is justifiable. I have met and talked to Tony once or twice and very carefully attempted to bring some balance and understanding to the picture without success. I do not know who else in the network he may be interacting with of course..it sounds like he is very aware of state and federal agency concerns as well. He is particularly adept at managing perception to discount risk of damage in the wild from unscientifically planned outplantings, outbreeding depression and swamping, derived cultivars getting into the wild etc. and understanding the need to prioritize and not yet being able to release materials that are in such small quantities they must be prioritized for research and recovery. The concept that we could engage nurseries to get busy and grow lots of these things for repatriation is just not practical yet. I wish it WERE easy enough to give out kits and provide instruction to good horticulturalists and good gardeners and garden clubs everywhere so there was an army out there, but the fact is that it IS complicated, and we are still feeling our way. WE ARE engaging more clubs through partners for plants and volunteers working WITH our scientists in our work, for the help they give, and to help them understand what is involved in successful projects and see the care and concern. Given the careful research and planning we have to do for each site related to placing these plants in the right place in terms of the plant community and security of restoration sites, the correct source material genetically for the greatest chance of success, the numbers and type of nursery stock for best results (liners? 2 in? gallon?), timing of planting, great care to avoid introducing pathogens to a wild site, how we move around in the site to prevent damage,etc. For most of these species this pilot work is ongoing and we aren't ready yet for more widespread multiplication of reintroduction efforts. It's a delicate thing to engage the passionate who are convinced of their particular point of view.sadly I think that we won't be able to convince many of the necessity for proceeding as we do in the short term. Only longer term education and information and demonstration will get us there.I've been dreaming about a video online where some of these points are made in the narration along with our scientists working away. KK -----Original Message----- From: meneice@att.net [mailto:meneice@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 7:37 PM To: Kathryn Kennedy; jocelyn616@earthlink.net; 'Emmy Seymour'; Ann Coburn; ladeenm@gmail.com; 'Diana Neely'; 'Patricia Schleuning' Subject: FW: [pbs] Saving Endangered Plants -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Tony Avent Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:12 AM To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Subject: Re: [pbs] Saving Endangered Plants Shirley: I'm glad you posted a note about the Center for Plant Conservation (CPC). Although their mission is good, I have found them to be one of the most elitist organizations that I've ever encountered. They seem more interested in patting each other on the back than actually accomplishing anything. In talking with them, they seem to have no interest in commercial nurseries or private collectors, since in their eyes, we are the great "unwashed". We don't understand the "problems" inherent with growing endangered plants...all rare plants must remain exactly where they are today, unless academic bureaucrats decide its okay to relocate them. They dismiss all nurseries and horticulture in general because we are evil commercial ventures only wanting to exploit plants. As I've tried to explain to several members, the nursery industry would be the perfect partner, not only in being able to actually grow the plants, but we could do wonders with ex-situ conservation by spreading the plants around widely to collectors in this changing climate. We would have many more Federally Endangered plants in our catalog if it were not for this bunch of bureaucrats...along with those from the US Fish and Wildlife. Do you know that to legally grow and sell Federal Endangered plants, you must prove that by doing so, you will help the wild populations. Common sense would say that as long as you aren't harming the wild population, this should be adequate. The CPC absolutely do not want endangered plants in private hands since the idea that they might wind up in a new location gives them fits...think Linda Blair from the Exorcist. Evidently, I missed the memo where someone put them in charge of keeping nature in exactly the same place as it is today....quite bizarre. In my logical world, a functional CPC would be passing out propagation material of endangered plants to nurseries and encouraging them to get it propagated and sold. Until we can get folks with more common sense, I don't hold much hope for the group actually accomplishing anything meaningful. How about it Shirley...are you up to the task? Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com/ phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of meneice@att.net Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 11:59 PM To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Subject: Re: [pbs] Saving Endangered Plants Are many of you in the U.S. aware of the Center for Plant Conservation, headquartered at the Missouri Botanic Garden in St. Louis? Their mission is to conserve and restore the imperiled native plants of our country. It is a consortium of Botanic Gardens and Arboreta across the country, including New York BG, Arnold Arboretum. Fairchild, Univ. of Washington, Desert Botanical Garden, Missouri Botanical Garden, Brooklyn Botanic Garden, Historic Bok Sanctuary, Flagstaff, AZ; Red Butte, Santa Barbara, Morton Arboretum, Arizona-Sonora Desert, Cinncinnati Zoo and BG, Chicago Bot. Garden, New England Wildflower, Denver Bot. Garden, North Carolina BG, Waimea Valley BG. New York BG, Rancho Santa Ana BG, State Botanical Garden of Georgia, Chicago BG, National Tropical BG, Holden Arboretum,, Minnesota, Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center, Cornell Plantation and Honolulu BG. For more information, please contact Kathryn Kennedy@mobot.org. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/