Mark, These changes are based on multiple gene sequences that clearly show that Alliaceae+Amaryllidaceae+Agapanthaceae represent a very well-supported unit, while the former Alliaceae tribe Brodieeae (I can never spell that correctly) of Alliaceae is sister group to the Hyacinthaceae. Yes, Muilla (I agree about the irony) is part of Themidaceae. Thus, it has much less to do about morphology. There are not a great number of good morphological characters to separate the group, but the lack of bracteoles in Alliaceae, and the gynophores and articulate pedicels in many Themidaceae are good characters. Though we wish that the DNA sequences were always backed up by lots of morphological or anatomical characters (and sometimes they are, especially when we go back and look carefully), that is not always the case. And sequence phylogenies are the arbiters these days of phylogenetic relatiionships. Alan ----------------------------- Alan W. Meerow, Ph.D., Research Geneticist, Systematist and Curator USDA-ARS-SHRS, National Germplasm Repository 13601 Old Cutler Road, Miami, FL 33158 USA voice: (305) 254-3635 fax: (305) 969-6410 email: miaam@ars-grin.gov WWW page: http://ars-grin.gov/ars/SoAtlantic/… ----- Original Message ----- From: <Antennaria@aol.com> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:29 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Dichelostemma--Themidaceae? > Comments on several respondents offerings on this topic: > > > Mark: > > > > Try these. Looks can be deceiving. > > > > Alan > > Thanks Alan, > I shall give these a lookup sometime. Until such time that I get a chance, > can you summarize, is Muilla now in the Themidaceae? If it is, it's ironic > n'est pa? > > Mar Sue, thanks for the paragraph summarizing the differences between > Alliaceae and Themidaceae. Some comments: > > >Alliaceae have a true bulb (composed of > >swollen leaf bases) with a membranous > >coat, but the storage organ in > >Themidaceae is a corm (composed > >of stem tissue.) > > This is a gross generalization. Many alliums do not have a recognizeable > bulb whatsoever > . many Chinese species, such as A. wallichii, have nothing more that a > ever-so-slightly thickened leaf base, and some fleshy white roots, nothing that > you'd remotely call a bulb, but indeed merely a rhizome, and even questionably at > that. A large number of species do not have membranous bulb coats... some > do, some have fibrous bulbs coats, some have no recognizeable bulb coats > whatsoever. > > I do agree that Trits and Brodes have corms, but some Geranium species, as > well as some Pelergoniums, have bulbs or bulb-like storage structures whereas > most are fibrous rooted perennials. Are they removed into their own genus? > Alliums can have true bulbs, rhizomes (whole sections named after this feature), > or a combination of vestigial bulb and rhizome. Should the different groups > be separated into their own genera? Many genera exhibit similar rootstalk > diversity, such as Corydalis... should these be separated out into their own > family? > > >Most, if not all, Themidaceae lack the onion odor." > Some major sections of the genus Allium also lack the characteristic onion > odor. Should these non-alliaceous-scented alliums be split off into their own > genus, or a new family perhaps. > > >While Alliaceae have a pair of bracts that > >encloses the flower buds, Themidaceae have > >several bracts that do not enclose the young > >flowers. > > Alliums have *one* to *many* bracts that enclose the flower buds, not always > a pair as described above. The number of spathe or bract segments, and > whether the segments are persistent or not, play a role in species determination. > In some species the spathe is so short and ephemeral (dropping off) that the > buds can appear as not being enclosed. The genus Muilla is described as having > buds enclosed in several spathe segments. What am I missing? > > Alan writes: > >No South American Themidaceae. Strictly > >Southwestern and Western U.S. andMexican. > >There is no true Brodiaea in Chile. All the Chilean > >onions are still onions. > > Way back when, many S. American plants now known as Tristagma, Ipheion, > Nothoscordum, and others, were listed as Brodiaeas, even a few as Allium. Alan is > quite right, there are no true Brodiaea in Chile and these genera names were > misapplied. When it is said "all Chilean onions are still onions", I assume > what is meant by that is that all Chilean Alliaceae are still Alliaceae, because > there are no true onions (Alliums) in South America. > > But this Themidaceae separation has me wondering... was the division largely > devised based on Western American and Mexican taxa... if so, therein lies the > conventional flaw in not looking "big picture". Most American Allium fall > into a single type with bulbs. Consider the genus Allium in it's holistic sense, > including Chinese Allium, the "rhiziridium" section of Allium, the > stoloniferous Alliums, alliums with varying bract structure, rootstalk structure, even > onion smell, and tell me that Themidaceae is justified. I just want to be > convinced. I'm not adverse to sensible change, but this one really has me > wondering. > > > Mark McDonough Pepperell, Massachusetts, United States > antennaria@aol.com "New England" USDA Zone 5 > ============================================== > >> web site under construction - http://www.plantbuzz.com/ << > alliums, bulbs, penstemons, hardy hibiscus, western > american alpines, iris, plants of all types! > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >