Okay, deep breath. I'm going to de-lurk for a minute and try to be useful. PBS is a great list. As someone who suffered through the collapse of the old Bulbs mailing list some years back, I really value this forum and would hate to see it damaged. At the same time, despite all of the tension expressed in recent days, I am glad this discussion is happening. Many of us in the US have been enormously frustrated by the confusion and complexities involved in plant importation, and by what feels like a distant and arbitrary government decision-making process. It sounds like some government officials have been frustrated too. There's a lot of pent-up emotion that needs to be burned off, and that is always an ugly process. But when that process is done I hope we can settle down to have a productive discussion and maybe actually influence the way the rules are developing. That's what I think you're offering, Mr. Aley, and if so I want to take you up on it. I personally think that with a productive dialog we could have a system that is both more secure and easier for plant nuts to deal with. The key is to *keep talking,* don't kick anyone out, and treat each other with respect, the same as we would if we were talking face to face. And I'd like to ask that folks give each other a pass for what's been said so far. Like I said, it's part of the frustration-release process, let it go. In the meantime, the discussion has already been helpful to me because it pointed out that you can apply for a plant import permit by mail. I thought you could do it only electronically, which in my case would have forced me to drive two-plus hours each way to have a government official look at my driver's license. Thanks for that, you saved me a tank of gas. Mike San Jose, CA (zone 9, min temp 20F) PS: Once the discussion calms down, maybe we can talk about the whitelist ;-)