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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Crinum reblooming (Joe Shaw)
2. Flower Formation (cross posted on "that other list") (Joe Shaw)
3. Re: Crinum foetidum and water (Joe Shaw)
4. Erythrina herbacea (Joe Shaw)
5. Aquatic Crinum (Joe Shaw)
6. Re: Aquatic Crinum (rdjenkins)
7. Re: Aquatic Crinum (Alberto Grossi)
8. Re: Aquatic Crinum (rdjenkins)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:54:38 -0500
From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Crinum reblooming
To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000901c6be30$012334f0$6401a8c0@Petunia>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

--------------------------------
What I mean for reblooming is a plant which sends scapes i.e. in June and
again in August or September. So far the only true reblooming crinum I
grow
is Cecil Houdyshel.
-------------------------------

Hi Gang and Angelo,

I agree with the proposed definition of reblooming. For me, C.
bulbispermum
Jumbo hybrids do the typical 2-4 scapes in Spring and then slow down for
summer. Mature plants, if well watered, will put up more blooms in late
August and right up till frost.

Therefore, I was happy to see 'Bradley' reblooming this summer. 'Eagle
Rock' reblooms, irregularly but relalibly. 'Summer Nocturne' is late to
start but if you keep it well watered a clump just keeps blooming till
November (later if no frosts)--not every week but reliably often.
'Hannibals Dwarf' reblooms in late summer and sometimes tries to make a
third performance before frost--it too needs lots of water to keep on
track.

Some C. asiaticum-like plants (or hybrids) seem to bloom off and on till
frost cuts them down. They may bloom early in the season, or wait till
June
to start, but then they can keep making flowers. C. x augustum seems to
bloom only in winter, and it is not suitable for me to grow becuase I
don't
protect my plants from cold. However, friends in Houston (a bit warmer)
grow it in frost-free gardens where it reliably blooms several times from
December till spring. They may experience drop to 31-33 F once or twice a
winter, but plants near the house never feel that cold.

I've finally decided that one key for rebloom is water, water, water. I
think they need several years of good, regular irrigation (no month-long
droughts) before Crinum give their best performances. I can't be sure,
but
that's my current "hypothesis of the week."

Cordially,

Joe

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:55:26 -0500
From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
Subject: [pbs] Flower Formation (cross posted on "that other list")
To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000a01c6be30$1d542800$6401a8c0@Petunia>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

Flower Formation

Irrigation for garden Crinum is great. Sometimes languid clumps can
suddenly bloom in the month following heavy rains.

Many bulbs form flower buds a long time before they are stimulated to
bloom,
perhaps during the prior growing season or even the one before that. So,
for me, the key to good blooming has been regular watering over a long
season of growth, and every season. This means that I water the plants if
it hasn't rained in 5 days or a week (during hot weather); I water potted
plants a lot, even if they are in 25-gallon containers.

By nature, many bulbs don't perform their best in their natural
environments, or they may not do so every year. They have bad years and
good years, and grow and flower accordingly. Typically, if care is taken
to
make sure they are not pushed too hard with fertilizer, many bulbs will
perform best in gardens where conditions are better than they might ever
experience in nature.

There can be drawbacks sometimes plants that are grown "hard" have a
special
look, a durability and presence that is often lacking in garden-grown
plants. Also, garden-grown plants may suffer from too much fertilizer, or
exposure to insects and pathogens not encountered in the wild.
Additionally, plants that are pushed to grow for months on end may have
lots
of new growth that is sometimes fodder for nearly permanent pest
infestations.

For the most part, garden bulbs are a hardy lot, and are often hybrids
that
might not even be able to survive or reproduce in "the wild." So, I'm
happy
to push my flowers with water, and Crinum types seem to appreciate it
(during the growing season).

Some plants need a down time, a stress- or environmentally-induced
(drought,
short days, cold, heat, etc.) period when they shut down. They may not
need
such period to actually survive but may require it for flower bud
formation
or maturation.

Many Crinum like to slow down during the winter, but that can be a problem
in many gardens; sprinklers or year-round rain don't permit the type of
drought that is experiences by many bulb species in the wild. For
instance,
Amaryllis belladonna grows easily here in my yard, but it has never
flowered; I'm pretty sure it needs a pronounced summer drought.
Similarly,
Lycoris squamigera grows easily here; alas, it too never flowers. The
leaves pop up after January and die down by June; I think it must need a
period of cold to flower. The local rain lily (Z. chlorosolen) blooms
reliably, but the flowers are unnaturally tall and can fall over-perhaps
too
much fertilizer in the flowerbed.

Anyway, getting back to flower formation, I take care to water Crinum for
at
least six months of the year (March-September); they enjoy it. C.
scabrum,
C. delagoense (sthulmanii), something that seems like C. graminicola, and
some others just deal with the rain as long as they have deep soils and
good
drainage. I try to remember to put pots of the latter 2 species on their
sides for winter.

Conceptually, I lump many bulbs (Crinum, Nerine, Lycoris, some Tulipia,
etc.) into the same category I put succulents. The bulbs are indeed
adapted
for drought, but like succulents need water. The amount of water, the
timing, the drainage, and so on are all variables that might be modified.
For instance, I plant most cacti in pure scoria (lava rock for landscape).
Then, I pour a little soil into the rock cracks (the soil is a mix of
sand,
perlite, and 10% humus). I never water cacti, they get far more rain than
they need just by being here in the Greater Houston area. Even with a
soil
composed primarily of scoria, I still have to apply fungicides 2 or 3
times
a year to be sure the roots don't acquire some infections.

After thinking it over and getting some advice from Greg Pettit, I've
decided I'll move the C. delagoense to a mixture that is composed of more
sand and perlite, and far less humus. Maybe that will make them happier
with year-round rain, maybe not.

Back to flower formation: typical bulbs like water in the growing season;
typical bulbs like good drainage. Many bulbs seem to produce flower buds
a
long time before we ever see the flowers and I try to help them along by
giving them lots of water during the growing season.

Cordially,

Joe

Conroe, TX

Not too hot today, not a lot of rain this week. I've watered the Crinum
beds twice this week, and of course, have given no water to the cacti.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:38:30 -0500
From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Crinum foetidum and water
To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <002801c6be36$21e75d00$6401a8c0@Petunia>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

-------------------
I think it would be a mistake to water well all species of Crinum. The
amount they need depends on the species. Crinum foetidum, as an example, I
found growing at Victoria Falls, in very very dry soil which was also very
compacted, being in a path from the station to the village.
-----------------

Hi Gang,

That sure sounds like one tough plant, compacted and shallow soil, and not
much water.

I can't comment directly on C. foetidum, but generally speaking, many
plants
have 2 or 3 life phases. Thus, as seeds and seedlings they need
conditions
that they may not encounter often as adults.

As a general rule, succulent plants (including bulbs from arid areas) need
gentle conditions during the period when they are establishing. In the
American West, for certain cacti, such periods might be 2 or 3 wet years
in
succession, with mild winters as well. Some seem to require such
conditions
and then 2 or 3 dry years (to kill competitors like grasses), followed by
another few wet years in order to really get established.

However, once established cacti can go 2-3 years without rain, and much
longer with just a bit of rain. Such plants may not flower, or they may
flower and set seed poorly, but they are alive and ready to produce when a
good year comes along.

Many bulbs of dry lands can often be found in situations that are quite
wet
sometimes, clay pans and local areas of water runoff. Of course, in
really
dry areas, the wet condition is not obvious most of the time and may not
occur some years. Bulbs are a storage device, storing food and water, or
perhaps rare trace elements. How much of which and in what proportions
will
depend upon the bulb type and growing conditions. Cacti (or succulent
leaf
plants) similarly are storage devices, but they have evolved different
storage organs.

Many cacti don't mind water, per se, if they have good drainage. In fact,
they often achieve unnatural (and sometimes ugly) growth if they have too
much water, such as here in my garden. This area may receive 40-60 inches
of rain per year; in contrast some species I grow come from areas with
5-25
inches of rain per year. Also, precipitation is pretty much a year round
thing here, whereas desert areas may go 5 months or 10 months between
rains.

I think that many bulbs will tolerate water even if they don't require it,
but prolonged soggy soil can lead to many problems. Therefore, bulbs from
dry areas will obviously benefit from excellent drainage if they are
getting
too much water. They may even benefit from other provisions such as more
perlite and stones (and less humus) so that less water is held in soil
after
gravity removes what it can.

Even if a lot of care is taken with cacti, they can suffer from root rot
when grown where rains occur year-round. I combat this by doing several
things: 1) I never water mature plants (they get too much water as it
is),
2) I plant them in nearly pure scoria, sand, and perlite, with only a
trace
of humus, and 3) I apply lawn fungicides to surface of the cactus pots
(just
as I would apply to a lawn, but more heavily). I like myclobutanil
because
it has low toxicity for me, because it breaks down soon enough, and
because
it is a systemic fungicide.

Back to bulbs: bulbs from very arid places may utilize more water than we
can suppose. However, extra irrigation can result in a garden "look" as
opposed to a wild look. Also, bulbs from arid areas can be predicted to
require not-so-horrible conditions during their seedling stage.

Bulbs may require a drought-induced dormancy to bloom. So, extra water in
summer may be fine but it may not be helpful for blooming. I have looked
but can find no literature out there (help me gang) where it has been
determined if C. foetidum requires a drought, or cold, or something else
to
bloom. I'm under the impression that C. foetidum plants will bloom in
South African gardens where conditions are not as it might find in the
wild.

Finally, it needs to be mentioned, that lessons extrapolated from other
succulents do not necessarily apply to Crinum (or other bulb plants). I
guess we all make our way in the garden or greenhouse, improvising as we
go.

Cordially,

Joe

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:29:34 -0500
From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
Subject: [pbs] Erythrina herbacea
To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <005801c6be56$69615850$6401a8c0@Petunia>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi Jim,

I was reading old PBS files (the archives). I noticed that a while back
(2-3 years ago) you were looking for 2-3 pounds of Erythrina herbacea
seeds. It seems you had a colleage in Japan wishing to isolate
components.

Anyway, I have 500-1000 seeds sitting here. I was thinging to shell them
and give them away on the Texas Garden Web. I have 2 large plants in my
yard from population in Central Texas. Last year I collected and traded
about 2 cups of pure seed; I got a about $80 dollars in credit from Mesa
Garden (in New Mexico).

I certainly don't have 2-3 pounds, but could get 4-5 cups of hulled seed
over a year's time if you still were interested in such things. It goes
without saying that it would be easier for me to send seeds-in-the-pod to
you, and let you and your colleage sort out overseas shipping and
shelling, etc. Perhaps it is far too late to help your friend.

Cordially,

Joe

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:34:58 -0500
From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
Subject: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <001d01c6be5f$8c92f690$6401a8c0@Petunia>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

-------------------------->>I grow thaianum and calimistratum (a var. of
natans). They are >>completely submerged all time. In summer I put them
into
a >>little pond at full sun, in winter (I live in zone 8) I put>> them in
an
aquarium with temperature at 18-20?C. I have not>> seen the flower till
now,
but I hope to. There is little in>> literature about these items and less
in horticulture. >>I am experimenting!

---------------------------------

Hi Gang,

Last winter I wrote about Crinum thainum and C. natans, and a couple of
other apparently fully aquatic Crinum species. Perhaps the plants are
obligate aquatics, or perhaps they are facultative. Or maybe they really
want to be submerged most of the time, but don't require 100% underwater
existence.

Alberto (in Italy) provided a bit of information. I'd like to try growing
these plants, and looked for them in a couple of aquarium/fish stores, but
did not find them. No doubt, one or another will appear for sale in the
future-fish stores seem to have erratic shipments of stock.

Anyway, I wonder if Alberto's plants bloomed this year?

Does anyone have a clue about hybrids between these plants and other
Crinum?
As near as I can tell, the genus has specialized in many ways to exploit
seriously arid environments, forests, savannahs and grasslands,
sometimes-flooded regions and bog-like areas, and streams. Such wondrous
adaptation is not without precedent, but it is special and fun to learn
about.

So, if you grow the 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6) aquatic Crinum, I'd enjoy hearing
about your experiences and observations, whether in aquaria or in the
garden.

Cordially,

Joe

Conroe TX

No rain for a week or more, and so I've been watering the summer-growing
bulbs.

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:40:02 -0400
From: "rdjenkins" <rdjenkins@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <007301c6be71$060d3ab0$6101a8c0@JenkinsMachine>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:34 PM
Subject: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum

I Googled and found many online sources starting at about $2.50 a plant
for
thaianum and natans.
Robert.

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:10:37 +0200
From: "Alberto Grossi" <crinum@libero.it>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
To: "pbs" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <J3XITP$8851D1EBB7C593AFE15B5882F8B364BE@libero.it>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hi Joe and all.
My crinums (thaianum and calimistratum) are growing well, but they have
not flowered. I do not know how big have to be the bulbs before blooming.
It looks like it is worth to go on.
Ciao
Alberto
Italy

---------- Initial Header -----------

From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
To : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
Cc :
Date : Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:34:58 -0500
Subject : [pbs] Aquatic Crinum

Alberto Grossi
Italy

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:21:56 -0400
From: "rdjenkins" <rdjenkins@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <001e01c6beec$37c0f670$6101a8c0@JenkinsMachine>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:34 PM
Subject: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum

What an intriguing question which naturally begs for practical
exploration!
That's on my list of to-dos now.

Robert.

------------------------------

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