----- Original Message ----- From: <pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 11:00 AM Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 43, Issue 12 > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." > > > List-Post: <mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > List-Archive: <http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/> > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Crinum reblooming (Joe Shaw) > 2. Flower Formation (cross posted on "that other list") (Joe Shaw) > 3. Re: Crinum foetidum and water (Joe Shaw) > 4. Erythrina herbacea (Joe Shaw) > 5. Aquatic Crinum (Joe Shaw) > 6. Re: Aquatic Crinum (rdjenkins) > 7. Re: Aquatic Crinum (Alberto Grossi) > 8. Re: Aquatic Crinum (rdjenkins) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:54:38 -0500 > From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Crinum reblooming > To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <000901c6be30$012334f0$6401a8c0@Petunia> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > -------------------------------- > What I mean for reblooming is a plant which sends scapes i.e. in June and > again in August or September. So far the only true reblooming crinum I > grow > is Cecil Houdyshel. > ------------------------------- > > Hi Gang and Angelo, > > I agree with the proposed definition of reblooming. For me, C. > bulbispermum > Jumbo hybrids do the typical 2-4 scapes in Spring and then slow down for > summer. Mature plants, if well watered, will put up more blooms in late > August and right up till frost. > > Therefore, I was happy to see 'Bradley' reblooming this summer. 'Eagle > Rock' reblooms, irregularly but relalibly. 'Summer Nocturne' is late to > start but if you keep it well watered a clump just keeps blooming till > November (later if no frosts)--not every week but reliably often. > 'Hannibals Dwarf' reblooms in late summer and sometimes tries to make a > third performance before frost--it too needs lots of water to keep on > track. > > Some C. asiaticum-like plants (or hybrids) seem to bloom off and on till > frost cuts them down. They may bloom early in the season, or wait till > June > to start, but then they can keep making flowers. C. x augustum seems to > bloom only in winter, and it is not suitable for me to grow becuase I > don't > protect my plants from cold. However, friends in Houston (a bit warmer) > grow it in frost-free gardens where it reliably blooms several times from > December till spring. They may experience drop to 31-33 F once or twice a > winter, but plants near the house never feel that cold. > > I've finally decided that one key for rebloom is water, water, water. I > think they need several years of good, regular irrigation (no month-long > droughts) before Crinum give their best performances. I can't be sure, > but > that's my current "hypothesis of the week." > > > Cordially, > > Joe > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:55:26 -0500 > From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com> > Subject: [pbs] Flower Formation (cross posted on "that other list") > To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <000a01c6be30$1d542800$6401a8c0@Petunia> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Flower Formation > > > > > > Irrigation for garden Crinum is great. Sometimes languid clumps can > suddenly bloom in the month following heavy rains. > > > > Many bulbs form flower buds a long time before they are stimulated to > bloom, > perhaps during the prior growing season or even the one before that. So, > for me, the key to good blooming has been regular watering over a long > season of growth, and every season. This means that I water the plants if > it hasn't rained in 5 days or a week (during hot weather); I water potted > plants a lot, even if they are in 25-gallon containers. > > > > By nature, many bulbs don't perform their best in their natural > environments, or they may not do so every year. They have bad years and > good years, and grow and flower accordingly. Typically, if care is taken > to > make sure they are not pushed too hard with fertilizer, many bulbs will > perform best in gardens where conditions are better than they might ever > experience in nature. > > > > There can be drawbacks sometimes plants that are grown "hard" have a > special > look, a durability and presence that is often lacking in garden-grown > plants. Also, garden-grown plants may suffer from too much fertilizer, or > exposure to insects and pathogens not encountered in the wild. > Additionally, plants that are pushed to grow for months on end may have > lots > of new growth that is sometimes fodder for nearly permanent pest > infestations. > > > > For the most part, garden bulbs are a hardy lot, and are often hybrids > that > might not even be able to survive or reproduce in "the wild." So, I'm > happy > to push my flowers with water, and Crinum types seem to appreciate it > (during the growing season). > > > > Some plants need a down time, a stress- or environmentally-induced > (drought, > short days, cold, heat, etc.) period when they shut down. They may not > need > such period to actually survive but may require it for flower bud > formation > or maturation. > > > > Many Crinum like to slow down during the winter, but that can be a problem > in many gardens; sprinklers or year-round rain don't permit the type of > drought that is experiences by many bulb species in the wild. For > instance, > Amaryllis belladonna grows easily here in my yard, but it has never > flowered; I'm pretty sure it needs a pronounced summer drought. > Similarly, > Lycoris squamigera grows easily here; alas, it too never flowers. The > leaves pop up after January and die down by June; I think it must need a > period of cold to flower. The local rain lily (Z. chlorosolen) blooms > reliably, but the flowers are unnaturally tall and can fall over-perhaps > too > much fertilizer in the flowerbed. > > > > Anyway, getting back to flower formation, I take care to water Crinum for > at > least six months of the year (March-September); they enjoy it. C. > scabrum, > C. delagoense (sthulmanii), something that seems like C. graminicola, and > some others just deal with the rain as long as they have deep soils and > good > drainage. I try to remember to put pots of the latter 2 species on their > sides for winter. > > > > Conceptually, I lump many bulbs (Crinum, Nerine, Lycoris, some Tulipia, > etc.) into the same category I put succulents. The bulbs are indeed > adapted > for drought, but like succulents need water. The amount of water, the > timing, the drainage, and so on are all variables that might be modified. > For instance, I plant most cacti in pure scoria (lava rock for landscape). > Then, I pour a little soil into the rock cracks (the soil is a mix of > sand, > perlite, and 10% humus). I never water cacti, they get far more rain than > they need just by being here in the Greater Houston area. Even with a > soil > composed primarily of scoria, I still have to apply fungicides 2 or 3 > times > a year to be sure the roots don't acquire some infections. > > > > After thinking it over and getting some advice from Greg Pettit, I've > decided I'll move the C. delagoense to a mixture that is composed of more > sand and perlite, and far less humus. Maybe that will make them happier > with year-round rain, maybe not. > > > > Back to flower formation: typical bulbs like water in the growing season; > typical bulbs like good drainage. Many bulbs seem to produce flower buds > a > long time before we ever see the flowers and I try to help them along by > giving them lots of water during the growing season. > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > Joe > > Conroe, TX > > Not too hot today, not a lot of rain this week. I've watered the Crinum > beds twice this week, and of course, have given no water to the cacti. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:38:30 -0500 > From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Crinum foetidum and water > To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <002801c6be36$21e75d00$6401a8c0@Petunia> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > ------------------- > I think it would be a mistake to water well all species of Crinum. The > amount they need depends on the species. Crinum foetidum, as an example, I > found growing at Victoria Falls, in very very dry soil which was also very > compacted, being in a path from the station to the village. > ----------------- > > > > > > Hi Gang, > > > > That sure sounds like one tough plant, compacted and shallow soil, and not > much water. > > > > I can't comment directly on C. foetidum, but generally speaking, many > plants > have 2 or 3 life phases. Thus, as seeds and seedlings they need > conditions > that they may not encounter often as adults. > > > > As a general rule, succulent plants (including bulbs from arid areas) need > gentle conditions during the period when they are establishing. In the > American West, for certain cacti, such periods might be 2 or 3 wet years > in > succession, with mild winters as well. Some seem to require such > conditions > and then 2 or 3 dry years (to kill competitors like grasses), followed by > another few wet years in order to really get established. > > > > However, once established cacti can go 2-3 years without rain, and much > longer with just a bit of rain. Such plants may not flower, or they may > flower and set seed poorly, but they are alive and ready to produce when a > good year comes along. > > > > Many bulbs of dry lands can often be found in situations that are quite > wet > sometimes, clay pans and local areas of water runoff. Of course, in > really > dry areas, the wet condition is not obvious most of the time and may not > occur some years. Bulbs are a storage device, storing food and water, or > perhaps rare trace elements. How much of which and in what proportions > will > depend upon the bulb type and growing conditions. Cacti (or succulent > leaf > plants) similarly are storage devices, but they have evolved different > storage organs. > > > > Many cacti don't mind water, per se, if they have good drainage. In fact, > they often achieve unnatural (and sometimes ugly) growth if they have too > much water, such as here in my garden. This area may receive 40-60 inches > of rain per year; in contrast some species I grow come from areas with > 5-25 > inches of rain per year. Also, precipitation is pretty much a year round > thing here, whereas desert areas may go 5 months or 10 months between > rains. > > > > I think that many bulbs will tolerate water even if they don't require it, > but prolonged soggy soil can lead to many problems. Therefore, bulbs from > dry areas will obviously benefit from excellent drainage if they are > getting > too much water. They may even benefit from other provisions such as more > perlite and stones (and less humus) so that less water is held in soil > after > gravity removes what it can. > > > > Even if a lot of care is taken with cacti, they can suffer from root rot > when grown where rains occur year-round. I combat this by doing several > things: 1) I never water mature plants (they get too much water as it > is), > 2) I plant them in nearly pure scoria, sand, and perlite, with only a > trace > of humus, and 3) I apply lawn fungicides to surface of the cactus pots > (just > as I would apply to a lawn, but more heavily). I like myclobutanil > because > it has low toxicity for me, because it breaks down soon enough, and > because > it is a systemic fungicide. > > > > Back to bulbs: bulbs from very arid places may utilize more water than we > can suppose. However, extra irrigation can result in a garden "look" as > opposed to a wild look. Also, bulbs from arid areas can be predicted to > require not-so-horrible conditions during their seedling stage. > > > > Bulbs may require a drought-induced dormancy to bloom. So, extra water in > summer may be fine but it may not be helpful for blooming. I have looked > but can find no literature out there (help me gang) where it has been > determined if C. foetidum requires a drought, or cold, or something else > to > bloom. I'm under the impression that C. foetidum plants will bloom in > South African gardens where conditions are not as it might find in the > wild. > > > > Finally, it needs to be mentioned, that lessons extrapolated from other > succulents do not necessarily apply to Crinum (or other bulb plants). I > guess we all make our way in the garden or greenhouse, improvising as we > go. > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:29:34 -0500 > From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com> > Subject: [pbs] Erythrina herbacea > To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <005801c6be56$69615850$6401a8c0@Petunia> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi Jim, > > I was reading old PBS files (the archives). I noticed that a while back > (2-3 years ago) you were looking for 2-3 pounds of Erythrina herbacea > seeds. It seems you had a colleage in Japan wishing to isolate > components. > > Anyway, I have 500-1000 seeds sitting here. I was thinging to shell them > and give them away on the Texas Garden Web. I have 2 large plants in my > yard from population in Central Texas. Last year I collected and traded > about 2 cups of pure seed; I got a about $80 dollars in credit from Mesa > Garden (in New Mexico). > > I certainly don't have 2-3 pounds, but could get 4-5 cups of hulled seed > over a year's time if you still were interested in such things. It goes > without saying that it would be easier for me to send seeds-in-the-pod to > you, and let you and your colleage sort out overseas shipping and > shelling, etc. Perhaps it is far too late to help your friend. > > > Cordially, > > > Joe > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:34:58 -0500 > From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com> > Subject: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum > To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <001d01c6be5f$8c92f690$6401a8c0@Petunia> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > -------------------------->>I grow thaianum and calimistratum (a var. of > natans). They are >>completely submerged all time. In summer I put them > into > a >>little pond at full sun, in winter (I live in zone 8) I put>> them in > an > aquarium with temperature at 18-20?C. I have not>> seen the flower till > now, > but I hope to. There is little in>> literature about these items and less > in horticulture. >>I am experimenting! > > --------------------------------- > > > > Hi Gang, > > > > Last winter I wrote about Crinum thainum and C. natans, and a couple of > other apparently fully aquatic Crinum species. Perhaps the plants are > obligate aquatics, or perhaps they are facultative. Or maybe they really > want to be submerged most of the time, but don't require 100% underwater > existence. > > > > Alberto (in Italy) provided a bit of information. I'd like to try growing > these plants, and looked for them in a couple of aquarium/fish stores, but > did not find them. No doubt, one or another will appear for sale in the > future-fish stores seem to have erratic shipments of stock. > > > > Anyway, I wonder if Alberto's plants bloomed this year? > > > > Does anyone have a clue about hybrids between these plants and other > Crinum? > As near as I can tell, the genus has specialized in many ways to exploit > seriously arid environments, forests, savannahs and grasslands, > sometimes-flooded regions and bog-like areas, and streams. Such wondrous > adaptation is not without precedent, but it is special and fun to learn > about. > > > > So, if you grow the 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6) aquatic Crinum, I'd enjoy hearing > about your experiences and observations, whether in aquaria or in the > garden. > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > Joe > > Conroe TX > > No rain for a week or more, and so I've been watering the summer-growing > bulbs. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:40:02 -0400 > From: "rdjenkins" <rdjenkins@bellsouth.net> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <007301c6be71$060d3ab0$6101a8c0@JenkinsMachine> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com> > To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:34 PM > Subject: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum > > > > >>Last winter I wrote about Crinum thainum and C. natans, and a couple of >>other apparently fully aquatic Crinum >species. > >> I'd like to try growing these plants, and looked for them in a couple of >> aquarium/fish stores, but >>did not find them. >>Joe > > I Googled and found many online sources starting at about $2.50 a plant > for > thaianum and natans. > Robert. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:10:37 +0200 > From: "Alberto Grossi" <crinum@libero.it> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum > To: "pbs" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <J3XITP$8851D1EBB7C593AFE15B5882F8B364BE@libero.it> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Hi Joe and all. > My crinums (thaianum and calimistratum) are growing well, but they have > not flowered. I do not know how big have to be the bulbs before blooming. > It looks like it is worth to go on. > Ciao > Alberto > Italy > > ---------- Initial Header ----------- > >From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org > To : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Cc : > Date : Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:34:58 -0500 > Subject : [pbs] Aquatic Crinum > > > > > > > >> -------------------------->>I grow thaianum and calimistratum (a var. of >> natans). They are >>completely submerged all time. In summer I put them >> into >> a >>little pond at full sun, in winter (I live in zone 8) I put>> them in >> an >> aquarium with temperature at 18-20?C. I have not>> seen the flower till >> now, >> but I hope to. There is little in>> literature about these items and >> less >> in horticulture. >>I am experimenting! >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Hi Gang, >> >> >> >> Last winter I wrote about Crinum thainum and C. natans, and a couple of >> other apparently fully aquatic Crinum species. Perhaps the plants are >> obligate aquatics, or perhaps they are facultative. Or maybe they really >> want to be submerged most of the time, but don't require 100% underwater >> existence. >> >> >> >> Alberto (in Italy) provided a bit of information. I'd like to try >> growing >> these plants, and looked for them in a couple of aquarium/fish stores, >> but >> did not find them. No doubt, one or another will appear for sale in the >> future-fish stores seem to have erratic shipments of stock. >> >> >> >> Anyway, I wonder if Alberto's plants bloomed this year? >> >> >> >> Does anyone have a clue about hybrids between these plants and other >> Crinum? >> As near as I can tell, the genus has specialized in many ways to exploit >> seriously arid environments, forests, savannahs and grasslands, >> sometimes-flooded regions and bog-like areas, and streams. Such wondrous >> adaptation is not without precedent, but it is special and fun to learn >> about. >> >> >> >> So, if you grow the 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6) aquatic Crinum, I'd enjoy hearing >> about your experiences and observations, whether in aquaria or in the >> garden. >> >> >> >> >> >> Cordially, >> >> >> >> Joe >> >> Conroe TX >> >> No rain for a week or more, and so I've been watering the summer-growing >> bulbs. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> > > Alberto Grossi > Italy > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:21:56 -0400 > From: "rdjenkins" <rdjenkins@bellsouth.net> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <001e01c6beec$37c0f670$6101a8c0@JenkinsMachine> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com> > To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:34 PM > Subject: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum > > >>Last winter I wrote about Crinum thainum and C. natans <snip> Or maybe >>they >>really >>want to be submerged most of the time, but don't require 100% underwater >>existence. >>Joe > > What an intriguing question which naturally begs for practical > exploration! > That's on my list of to-dos now. > > Robert. > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 43, Issue 12 > *********************************** > >