Alani Davis wrote: "There are so many name issues relating to common names which is one of the of the problems with common names" and then went on to give lots of good examples. However, I would like to play devil's advocate in this discussion. Those of us fluent in botanical names may be misleading ourselves and others. The correct application of botanical names in my experience is sometimes a much more difficult undertaking than we give it credit for. Here's an example I've been wrestling with for the last week or so. It ties in to some recent discussions we've had on the topics of speciation, evolution, cladistics and related topics. About a week ago I had one of those serendipitous experiences in which several seemingly unrelated threads of cognition came together into a seeming revelation. I had been going through some old lily books to check something or other out and, in passing, I noticed an old photograph and suddenly had an inspiration. The photograph, in George Slates Lilies for American Gardens (Scribner's, 1939) was captioned Lilium grayi. I'm convinced that the plant portrayed in not Lilium grayi but rather one of the lilies which occur in the northern range of Lilium grayi where it and Lilium canadense exist in what is in effect a species-like relationship. Such lilies are routinely called hybrids and given the name Lilium pseudo-grayi. As I've said before, I'm of the school which says if they are interbreeding and producing viable progeny which themselves are capable of interbreeding and producing viable progeny, then they are not hybrids; the reality is that the parental populations are members of the same species. The photograph in Slate also suggests something else. In the Flora of West Virginia there is a line drawing of Lilium canadense editorum. The line drawing is so odd that for a long time I assumed that it had been drawn from a bad herbarium specimen. But that line drawing matches fairly well one of the images (a sort of photographic collage) provided by Fernald, the author of editorum. At this point in my understanding, I am just about convinced that Lilium pseudo-grayi and Lilium canadense editorum are based on either the same population or on related populations which show varying degrees of introgression with Lilium grayi. In this view, Lilium grayi and Lilium canadense emerge as a single species, the apparent morphological differences notwithstanding: they form a population which not only interbreeds but interbreeds and produces viable progeny. These two species have long been recognized as being closely related. Presumably in the distant past they were one species; over time, their populations separated enough for the apparent differences to become stabilized. Now those formerly separated populations are in contact and are interbreeding: these "species" are merging before our eyes. And what's the point of all this? I for one would not want to be too dogmatic about the identity of any of the Lilium grayi material I've seen. In particular, I would be very reluctant to draw a sharp line of separation between what traditionally have been known as Lilium grayi (such as the ones in my images on the wiki) and the evidently numerous plants found in southeastern Virginia which clearly show the influence of both Lilium grayi and L. canadense. There is a long history (going back to the early twentieth century) of this material coming into commerce under the name Lilium grayi. In cases like this, where the conventional nomenclature does not reflect the reality on the ground, the use of botanical names easily becomes misleading. In a case like this one, botanical names are not adequate to express what is really happening. There are plants in the trade being sold as Lilium grayi. But how would one know? The best that can be said is that some authorities will say yes and some will say no. To those who have to have botanical accuracy, this is torture. To those happy and content to have a red thimble lily, it's irrelevant. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where Crocus ochroleucus is still in bloom and where there has been no sigh yet of C. laevigatus. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/ BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/ Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/