Aloha and Han`oli Makahiki Hon

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Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 14

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Liz Waterman)
2. Re: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS (William Aley)
3. Winter Dreams - Pasithea coerulea (James Waddick)
4. Re: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS (Tim Harvey)
5. Re: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS (William Aley)
6. Re: Using proper (bird) names (Eugene Zielinski)
7. Re: names (piaba)
8. FW: Re: Using proper (bird) names (Eugene Zielinski)
9. Re: Using proper names (piaba)
10. Best wishes. (Marguerite English)
11. Re: Merry Christmas (Douglas Westfall)
12. Re: Merry Christmas (Paul T.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:16:45 -0800
From: Liz Waterman <lizwat@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <476D7EBD.9000201@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

*UC Berkeley Botanical garden receives some of the confiscated plants
that survive a period of neglect in quarantine. I know some of the
orchid collection was acquired this way.
Liz W
*
J.E. Shields wrote:

The Huntington Botanic Gardens near Los Angeles, California, has a
marvelous collection of large barrel cacti, most of which were handed over

to them by conservation officers, customs agents, etc., after confiscation

of the plants as stolen or smuggled. I don't know if they propagate these

confiscated species from seeds at the Huntington or not. They do attempt
to propagate some of their rare species of plants.

I have assumed that many botanic gardens are designated to receive plants
confiscated by the government for lack of proper documentation. Does
anyone know if this is true of other gardens besides the Huntington?

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:22:13 -0500
From: William Aley <aley_wd@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <1A3EF9FA-B488-4457-9307-2AB1BD58DAC2@mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Times are different now. There is The Department of Homeland Security.
Those are the folks in dark blue that protect our borders. APHIS and
other government agencies like Fish and Wildlife and Public Health are
no longer working at the entry points of the USA.

That being said, USDA requires all propagative plant material to have
a phytosanitary certificate from the exporting country. There are a
few exceptions - (small lots of seed permits and experimental
permits) CITES material would be documented on the Phyto as well as
with the CITES documents. It is up to the exporting country to
determine the necessity of CITES documents.
In the situation you described below, this is how it works today..
Your would be better off contacting the US CITES representative at
APHIS HQ in Riverdale, MD. The folks at the Plant Inspection Stations
are good, but they are only validators and enforcement officers.
Much has changed in 10 years.
USA and APHIS as the enforcement agency for USA must follow the laws
of CITES. In reality there "should" be no exceptions. It is an
international agreement, USA has agreed to participate with CITES and
ESA. For the most part this is the enforcement element that everyone
notices the most. It seems unfair when an individual is traveling with
a few rare plants and the government "seizes" them for no apparent
reason and then "destroys them" contrast this to whole suppliers of
rare plants.

So what really happens?
When the plants are presented or discovered at the ports of entry in
the USA. Certain documents are necessary to allow those plants to
enter. As mentioned the Phyto is the most important document. For rare
plants, a CITES document. Because the US is currently busy funding a
freedom operation to the folks in the middle east, government
resources are limited and now importers myst pay a small fee for an
CITES import permit $70 which is every two years (don't be too
concerned- because in the very near future, the price will triple to
about $350 for all import permits- Thanks be to George).
If you don't have the documents- the government has to follow some
specific guidelines to process the plant material.
1. the importer is provided 21 days to obtain the necessary documents
from the exporting country. The plants sit in a not so nice place
(usually depending of the plant inspection station it's as good as
they have) at least it's not anything like where the plants were
growing prior to being transported to the USA.
After this period of time, the importer should be contacted to verify
that they have produced the documents or the plants will be sent to
the country of export or to a rescue center.
Usually 15 days is the grace period for this.
If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the
country of export and offer the material back to that country. The
exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time
this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and Wildlife
who looks art the address of the importer and follows a list of
available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue center NOT
the same as the address or State of the importer. Too many folks at
botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually the government
figured it out.
Then, now almost 60 days after the initial import into the USA, the
plants are off to a rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in
bad shape. Definitely not happy plants.

But this doesn't mean you can't import. You just have to be aware of
what the rules are and know who to contact.

Remember the official documents. Those need to be obtained before the
plants leave the country by the appropriate government official. Not
every government is good at posting their information on the web, so
you may have to research. Sometimes difficult when in Burma and your
skill in either Gurma, Fulani, Dejula, or Tuareg is a little rusty
trying to find out who and communicate to their government CITES
representative may pose some problems.
I'd recommend ordering plants on line or doing a lot of research
before you travel.
Have your permits in place before the plants or money are exchanged.
Be prepared to work with people who may not know as much about what
you are trying to do as you know. Often regulatory people have to do a
lot of things and sometimes they just don't know what it is you are
trying to accomplish. It's bad, it's unfortunate- but think about all
the things someone expects you to do and how much do you know about
all the things you don't do an a daily basis.

Word of caution, trying to fool people will work for a while, but when
you run into someone as smart- or smarter than yourself, you may have
to explain your actions and if you have a history, often the
Government is not so forgiving and challenges all that you've done in
the past as probably not so innocent. They are the Department of
Homeland Security and doubt and paranoia are part of the corporate
psyche.
APHIS is still in charge of policy- For now.
some contact information:

CITES Program Coordinator
(APHIS headquarters in Riverdale Md)
301-734-5312

East Coast CITES Specialist
(Jamaica, NY)
718.553.1732

West Coast CITES Specialist
(San Francisco, CA)
650.876.9093

Permit information
hhttp://aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/…
ed_plants.shtml

A link to the manual used to regulated CITES plants- slow to download
but this is what the government uses
http://aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/…
da.pdf

Plant Inspection Info (large pdf document) with current information
http://aphis.usda.gov/publications/plant_health/…
n/PlantInspectionStations2007.pdf

Bill

On Dec 22, 2007, at 8:55 AM, Judy Glattstein wrote:

A decade or two ago I was lecturing / visiting in England. A friend
there offered me some Galanthus cultivars. Since Galanthus is on CITES
Appendix II, I telephoned John Arcery at the Kennedy Airport APHIS
inspection station to explain the situation. I suggested that my
friend
and I would go to a notary in said friend's town and testify to the
fact
that these were A) cultivars and B) propagated, not wild collected
(though how one could wild-collect cultivars in the first place . . .)
After all, I already had a general import permit that included
Amaryllidaceae (I'd gone for plant families when applying for the
permit, why be niggardly and restrict to genus, let alone a specific
species.)

Not possible, said John. I would need government level export and
import
documents.

What would happen if I brought them in without said documentation on
both sides?

I was sternly informed that the bulbs would be confiscated and sent to
the nearest approved educational institution. Which, in this instance,
would be the New York Botanical Garden. Where I was then and am now an
instructor. I thought about this for a bit, but decided that was
getting
complicated.

Galanthus bulbs do look very much like those of Narcissus
bulbocodium . . .

Judy in New Jersey, where gray skies and patchy iced-over snow look
gloomy rather than festive
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:42:08 -0600
From: James Waddick <jwaddick@kc.rr.com>
Subject: [pbs] Winter Dreams - Pasithea coerulea
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <p06240826c3944d118619@[192.168.1.105]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Dear Friends,
It is now officially winter here in the northern hemisphere.
Here we have been snowed in and iced in once each, received the first
seed and nursery catalogs and there's 3 or more inches of snow on the
ground.
So naturally thoughts turn to plant acquisitions in 2008.

A run through Google leaves me wishful for seeds or better a
plant of Pasithea coerulea. This is a plant we've discussed a bit and
is pictured on the wiki. I'd love to organize a trade for this plant
from someone who grows it successfully. I have tried seed once, but
bad climate coincidences did them in.

Anyone grow it and have something to spare? Please write to
me at jwaddick@kc.rr.com and we'll make a deal.

That's number one of the list. Happy Holidays to
all. Jim W.

see http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/…
--
Dr. James W. Waddick
8871 NW Brostrom Rd.
Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711
USA
Ph. 816-746-1949
Zone 5 Record low -23F
Summer 100F +

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:21:10 -0800
From: Tim Harvey <zigur@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BAY110-W40C30D48064B2C1D020D83BC580@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Well maybe that's what is supposed to happen, but is absolutely not what has
happened, as recently as the last three months.

Has anyone ever been offered even the opportunity to obtain appropriate
documents? I know of plants destroyed because of a simple typo the genus on
the contents list, and "Nothing could be done".

I even know of shipments that were supposedly returned but then all
paperwork pertaining to the return was 'lost' along with the plants.

It is hardly a system that inspires confidence.

T> So what really happens?> When the plants are presented or discovered at
the ports of entry in > the USA. Certain documents are necessary to allow
those plants to > enter. As mentioned the Phyto is the most important
document. For rare > plants, a CITES document. Because the US is currently
busy funding a > freedom operation to the folks in the middle east,
government > resources are limited and now importers myst pay a small fee
for an > CITES import permit $70 which is every two years (don't be too >
concerned- because in the very near future, the price will triple to > about
$350 for all import permits- Thanks be to George).> If you don't have the
documents- the government has to follow some > specific guidelines to
process the plant material.> 1. the importer is provided 21 days to obtain
the necessary documents > from the exporting country. The plants sit in a
not so nice place > (usually depending of the plant inspection station it's
as good as > they have) at least
it's not anything like where the plants were > growing prior to being
transported to the USA.> After this period of time, the importer should be
contacted to verify > that they have produced the documents or the plants
will be sent to > the country of export or to a rescue center.> Usually 15
days is the grace period for this.> If the importer fails to obtain the
documents. USA will contact the > country of export and offer the material
back to that country. The > exporting country must pay for freight costs
only. 99% of the time > this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to
Fish and Wildlife > who looks art the address of the importer and follows a
list of > available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue center
NOT > the same as the address or State of the importer. Too many folks at >
botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually the government > figured
it out.> Then, now almost 60 days after the initial import into the USA, the

plants are off to a

rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in > bad shape. Definitely
not happy plants.>

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:03:50 -0500
From: William Aley <aley_wd@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <0E1603D6-24C4-4BEC-92EC-AA94BF1E94C8@mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Well Tim,
I can't say anything about your real life adventures but if you let me
know the particulars, I'll contact the CITES Manager myself in the
new year.
Also anytime the Government makes mistake , you can at a minimum file
for a Tort Claim. You may not get 100 % recovery, but you can reclaim
lost $ for your effort. Every Tort Claim is investigated by OGC and
creates motivation to change in the system.
Remember it's your government, you can make the system work for you or
you can sit back and wait for change to occur. Also CITES is not US
law it is an international agreement. US adopts the CITES standards.

Bill

On Dec 23, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Tim Harvey wrote:

Well maybe that's what is supposed to happen, but is absolutely not
what has happened, as recently as the last three months.

Has anyone ever been offered even the opportunity to obtain
appropriate documents? I know of plants destroyed because of a
simple typo the genus on the contents list, and "Nothing could be
done".

I even know of shipments that were supposedly returned but then all
paperwork pertaining to the return was 'lost' along with the plants.

It is hardly a system that inspires confidence.

T> So what really happens?> When the plants are presented or
discovered at the ports of entry in > the USA. Certain documents are
necessary to allow those plants to > enter. As mentioned the Phyto
is the most important document. For rare > plants, a CITES document.
Because the US is currently busy funding a > freedom operation to
the folks in the middle east, government > resources are limited and
now importers myst pay a small fee for an > CITES import permit $70
which is every two years (don't be too > concerned- because in the
very near future, the price will triple to > about $350 for all
import permits- Thanks be to George).> If you don't have the
documents- the government has to follow some > specific guidelines
to process the plant material.> 1. the importer is provided 21 days
to obtain the necessary documents > from the exporting country. The
plants sit in a not so nice place > (usually depending of the plant
inspection station it's as good as > they have) at least
it's not anything like where the plants were > growing prior to
being transported to the USA.> After this period of time, the
importer should be contacted to verify > that they have produced the
documents or the plants will be sent to > the country of export or
to a rescue center.> Usually 15 days is the grace period for this.>
If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the

country of export and offer the material back to that country. The
exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time
this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and

Wildlife > who looks art the address of the importer and follows a
list of > available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue
center NOT > the same as the address or State of the importer. Too
many folks at > botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually
the government > figured it out.> Then, now almost 60 days after the
initial import into the USA, the > plants are off to a
rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in > bad shape.
Definitely not happy plants.>
_______________________________________________
pbs mailing list
pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php
http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:01:34 -0500
From: "Eugene Zielinski" <eez55@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper (bird) names
To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <380-2200712124413462@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

No we don't. Scientific names are for ornithologists.
Because there are relatively few species of birds (compared to plants),
North American birders are able to use standardized English names. Jim McK
used the term sparrow hawk in a recent e mail. While perfectly valid, this
name is not the official name; the official name is American Kestrel. If
you mentioned sparrow hawk, duck hawk, or pigeon hawk to a younger birder,
he may not know what you're talking about. Mention American Kestrel,
Peregrine Falcon, or Merlin, and he will (or should.) The American
Ornithologists' Union determines the official North American names. There
are a few checklists that establish English names for birds worldwide; the
best known and most used is probably Clements.
A few years back, the New World chickadees were split off from the Old
World chickadees. Originally, both were in the genus Parus; the New World
birds were put into the genus Poecile. The American birding community
barely noticed. At about the same time, Oldsquaw was officially changed to
Long-tailed Duck. This caused a minor ruckus.
Incidentally, I've seen Northern-Beardless Tyrannulets, Masked Boobies,
Golden-winged Warblers, and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers -- and more.

Gene

Eugene Zielinski
Augusta, GA USA

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:07:52 -0800
From: Diane Whitehead
Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>

When I look at bird lists, there are wonderful common names: Golden
Spangled Whatevers, Northern Beardless-Tyrannulets.

Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant
folks?

Diane Whitehead

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:06:33 -0800 (PST)
From: piaba <piabinha@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] names
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <118481.84992.qm@web51905.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

What I find amusing in this discusion is that

nobody has commented on the

subject header - and also, given the sensitivity

of spam filters, it has

still got through with such a suggestive title. At

least its not trying to

sell us viagra.

or Hoodia. i wonder how many legitimate emails about
Hoodia don't reach their destination...

john, considering your email address is @virgin.net,
yes, you should blush on reading about naked ladies...
:-)

is the concept of "cline" similar to a species
complex?

my big pet peeve about names is how we overuse certain
names, such as "lily". we call everything a lily! i
think even some ginger, in addition to Lillium,
Zantedeschia, Convallaria, etc.

=========
tsuh yang

____________________________________________________________________________
________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8…

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:07:25 -0500
From: "Eugene Zielinski" <eez55@earthlink.net>
Subject: [pbs] FW: Re: Using proper (bird) names
To: "PBS E mail list" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <380-22007121244725859@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Gene

Eugene Zielinski
Augusta, GA USA

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:07:52 -0800
From: Diane Whitehead
Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>

When I look at bird lists, there are wonderful common names: Golden
Spangled Whatevers, Northern Beardless-Tyrannulets.

Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant
folks?

Diane Whitehead

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:04:35 -0800 (PST)
From: piaba <piabinha@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <757732.44637.qm@web51901.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Their blackbird is a member of the thrush family,
Turdidae and is very
closely related (same genus) to our robin. Our
blackbirds (the name is
applied to several species of several genera) are
placed in the Icteridae.

funny you should mention that. just this week i was
at a restaurant, and they had "blackfish" in the menu.
i thought to myself, which one?

=========
tsuh yang

____________________________________________________________________________
________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs/

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:48:42 -0800
From: Marguerite English <meenglis@meenglis.cts.com>
Subject: [pbs] Best wishes.
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <47700D1A.9060809@meenglis.cts.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

And to all of you this holiday. Please have a lovely Christmas season
and a bulb-filled new year! Marguerite

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:57:04 -0800
From: Douglas Westfall <eagle85@flash.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Merry Christmas
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <85A373E0-AF9D-47B1-9603-779C32733A73@flash.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

To ALL PBS members, have a wonderful Christmas and a happy,sober New
Year. May all your Haemanthus, Scadoxus, and Hippeastrum have their
best year ever! (I already have H. aulicum and H. papilio blooming.

Doug Westfall

In Long Beach,California

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:39:28 +1100
From: "Paul T." <ptyerman@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Merry Christmas
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <6a9ms5$7j7lhu@outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out1.iinet.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 07:57 AM 25/12/2007, you wrote:

Doug et al,

Thanks for the best wishes everyone. Here's some more, this time
from Australia. Have a most excellent Silly Season everyone, and may
2008 hold everything you want it to and much more!! Thanks to
everyone for their wonderful help and sharing of knowledge in 2007.

All the very best.

Cheers.

Paul T.
Canberra, Australia (where it is 9:30am on Christmas morning!!)

------------------------------

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End of pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 14
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