Happy Holidays to all! Fred and Paula Thorne Pahoa, Hawaii -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 12:40 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 14 Send pbs mailing list submissions to pbs@lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/> Today's Topics: 1. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Liz Waterman) 2. Re: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS (William Aley) 3. Winter Dreams - Pasithea coerulea (James Waddick) 4. Re: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS (Tim Harvey) 5. Re: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS (William Aley) 6. Re: Using proper (bird) names (Eugene Zielinski) 7. Re: names (piaba) 8. FW: Re: Using proper (bird) names (Eugene Zielinski) 9. Re: Using proper names (piaba) 10. Best wishes. (Marguerite English) 11. Re: Merry Christmas (Douglas Westfall) 12. Re: Merry Christmas (Paul T.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:16:45 -0800 From: Liz Waterman <lizwat@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <476D7EBD.9000201@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed *UC Berkeley Botanical garden receives some of the confiscated plants that survive a period of neglect in quarantine. I know some of the orchid collection was acquired this way. Liz W * J.E. Shields wrote: > The Huntington Botanic Gardens near Los Angeles, California, has a > marvelous collection of large barrel cacti, most of which were handed over > to them by conservation officers, customs agents, etc., after confiscation > of the plants as stolen or smuggled. I don't know if they propagate these > confiscated species from seeds at the Huntington or not. They do attempt > to propagate some of their rare species of plants. > > I have assumed that many botanic gardens are designated to receive plants > confiscated by the government for lack of proper documentation. Does > anyone know if this is true of other gardens besides the Huntington? > > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:22:13 -0500 From: William Aley <aley_wd@mac.com> Subject: Re: [pbs] CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <1A3EF9FA-B488-4457-9307-2AB1BD58DAC2@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Times are different now. There is The Department of Homeland Security. Those are the folks in dark blue that protect our borders. APHIS and other government agencies like Fish and Wildlife and Public Health are no longer working at the entry points of the USA. That being said, USDA requires all propagative plant material to have a phytosanitary certificate from the exporting country. There are a few exceptions - (small lots of seed permits and experimental permits) CITES material would be documented on the Phyto as well as with the CITES documents. It is up to the exporting country to determine the necessity of CITES documents. In the situation you described below, this is how it works today.. Your would be better off contacting the US CITES representative at APHIS HQ in Riverdale, MD. The folks at the Plant Inspection Stations are good, but they are only validators and enforcement officers. Much has changed in 10 years. USA and APHIS as the enforcement agency for USA must follow the laws of CITES. In reality there "should" be no exceptions. It is an international agreement, USA has agreed to participate with CITES and ESA. For the most part this is the enforcement element that everyone notices the most. It seems unfair when an individual is traveling with a few rare plants and the government "seizes" them for no apparent reason and then "destroys them" contrast this to whole suppliers of rare plants. So what really happens? When the plants are presented or discovered at the ports of entry in the USA. Certain documents are necessary to allow those plants to enter. As mentioned the Phyto is the most important document. For rare plants, a CITES document. Because the US is currently busy funding a freedom operation to the folks in the middle east, government resources are limited and now importers myst pay a small fee for an CITES import permit $70 which is every two years (don't be too concerned- because in the very near future, the price will triple to about $350 for all import permits- Thanks be to George). If you don't have the documents- the government has to follow some specific guidelines to process the plant material. 1. the importer is provided 21 days to obtain the necessary documents from the exporting country. The plants sit in a not so nice place (usually depending of the plant inspection station it's as good as they have) at least it's not anything like where the plants were growing prior to being transported to the USA. After this period of time, the importer should be contacted to verify that they have produced the documents or the plants will be sent to the country of export or to a rescue center. Usually 15 days is the grace period for this. If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the country of export and offer the material back to that country. The exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and Wildlife who looks art the address of the importer and follows a list of available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue center NOT the same as the address or State of the importer. Too many folks at botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually the government figured it out. Then, now almost 60 days after the initial import into the USA, the plants are off to a rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in bad shape. Definitely not happy plants. But this doesn't mean you can't import. You just have to be aware of what the rules are and know who to contact. Remember the official documents. Those need to be obtained before the plants leave the country by the appropriate government official. Not every government is good at posting their information on the web, so you may have to research. Sometimes difficult when in Burma and your skill in either Gurma, Fulani, Dejula, or Tuareg is a little rusty trying to find out who and communicate to their government CITES representative may pose some problems. I'd recommend ordering plants on line or doing a lot of research before you travel. Have your permits in place before the plants or money are exchanged. Be prepared to work with people who may not know as much about what you are trying to do as you know. Often regulatory people have to do a lot of things and sometimes they just don't know what it is you are trying to accomplish. It's bad, it's unfortunate- but think about all the things someone expects you to do and how much do you know about all the things you don't do an a daily basis. Word of caution, trying to fool people will work for a while, but when you run into someone as smart- or smarter than yourself, you may have to explain your actions and if you have a history, often the Government is not so forgiving and challenges all that you've done in the past as probably not so innocent. They are the Department of Homeland Security and doubt and paranoia are part of the corporate psyche. APHIS is still in charge of policy- For now. some contact information: CITES Program Coordinator (APHIS headquarters in Riverdale Md) 301-734-5312 East Coast CITES Specialist (Jamaica, NY) 718.553.1732 West Coast CITES Specialist (San Francisco, CA) 650.876.9093 Permit information hhttp://aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/… ed_plants.shtml A link to the manual used to regulated CITES plants- slow to download but this is what the government uses http://aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/… da.pdf Plant Inspection Info (large pdf document) with current information http://aphis.usda.gov/publications/plant_health/… n/PlantInspectionStations2007.pdf Bill On Dec 22, 2007, at 8:55 AM, Judy Glattstein wrote: > A decade or two ago I was lecturing / visiting in England. A friend > there offered me some Galanthus cultivars. Since Galanthus is on CITES > Appendix II, I telephoned John Arcery at the Kennedy Airport APHIS > inspection station to explain the situation. I suggested that my > friend > and I would go to a notary in said friend's town and testify to the > fact > that these were A) cultivars and B) propagated, not wild collected > (though how one could wild-collect cultivars in the first place . . .) > After all, I already had a general import permit that included > Amaryllidaceae (I'd gone for plant families when applying for the > permit, why be niggardly and restrict to genus, let alone a specific > species.) > > Not possible, said John. I would need government level export and > import > documents. > > What would happen if I brought them in without said documentation on > both sides? > > I was sternly informed that the bulbs would be confiscated and sent to > the nearest approved educational institution. Which, in this instance, > would be the New York Botanical Garden. Where I was then and am now an > instructor. I thought about this for a bit, but decided that was > getting > complicated. > > Galanthus bulbs do look very much like those of Narcissus > bulbocodium . . . > > Judy in New Jersey, where gray skies and patchy iced-over snow look > gloomy rather than festive > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:42:08 -0600 From: James Waddick <jwaddick@kc.rr.com> Subject: [pbs] Winter Dreams - Pasithea coerulea To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <p06240826c3944d118619@[192.168.1.105]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear Friends, It is now officially winter here in the northern hemisphere. Here we have been snowed in and iced in once each, received the first seed and nursery catalogs and there's 3 or more inches of snow on the ground. So naturally thoughts turn to plant acquisitions in 2008. A run through Google leaves me wishful for seeds or better a plant of Pasithea coerulea. This is a plant we've discussed a bit and is pictured on the wiki. I'd love to organize a trade for this plant from someone who grows it successfully. I have tried seed once, but bad climate coincidences did them in. Anyone grow it and have something to spare? Please write to me at jwaddick@kc.rr.com and we'll make a deal. That's number one of the list. Happy Holidays to all. Jim W. see http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:21:10 -0800 From: Tim Harvey <zigur@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [pbs] CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <BAY110-W40C30D48064B2C1D020D83BC580@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well maybe that's what is supposed to happen, but is absolutely not what has happened, as recently as the last three months. Has anyone ever been offered even the opportunity to obtain appropriate documents? I know of plants destroyed because of a simple typo the genus on the contents list, and "Nothing could be done". I even know of shipments that were supposedly returned but then all paperwork pertaining to the return was 'lost' along with the plants. It is hardly a system that inspires confidence. T> So what really happens?> When the plants are presented or discovered at the ports of entry in > the USA. Certain documents are necessary to allow those plants to > enter. As mentioned the Phyto is the most important document. For rare > plants, a CITES document. Because the US is currently busy funding a > freedom operation to the folks in the middle east, government > resources are limited and now importers myst pay a small fee for an > CITES import permit $70 which is every two years (don't be too > concerned- because in the very near future, the price will triple to > about $350 for all import permits- Thanks be to George).> If you don't have the documents- the government has to follow some > specific guidelines to process the plant material.> 1. the importer is provided 21 days to obtain the necessary documents > from the exporting country. The plants sit in a not so nice place > (usually depending of the plant inspection station it's as good as > they have) at least it's not anything like where the plants were > growing prior to being transported to the USA.> After this period of time, the importer should be contacted to verify > that they have produced the documents or the plants will be sent to > the country of export or to a rescue center.> Usually 15 days is the grace period for this.> If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the > country of export and offer the material back to that country. The > exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time > this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and Wildlife > who looks art the address of the importer and follows a list of > available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue center NOT > the same as the address or State of the importer. Too many folks at > botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually the government > figured it out.> Then, now almost 60 days after the initial import into the USA, the > plants are off to a rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in > bad shape. Definitely not happy plants.> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:03:50 -0500 From: William Aley <aley_wd@mac.com> Subject: Re: [pbs] CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <0E1603D6-24C4-4BEC-92EC-AA94BF1E94C8@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Well Tim, I can't say anything about your real life adventures but if you let me know the particulars, I'll contact the CITES Manager myself in the new year. Also anytime the Government makes mistake , you can at a minimum file for a Tort Claim. You may not get 100 % recovery, but you can reclaim lost $ for your effort. Every Tort Claim is investigated by OGC and creates motivation to change in the system. Remember it's your government, you can make the system work for you or you can sit back and wait for change to occur. Also CITES is not US law it is an international agreement. US adopts the CITES standards. Bill On Dec 23, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Tim Harvey wrote: > > Well maybe that's what is supposed to happen, but is absolutely not > what has happened, as recently as the last three months. > > Has anyone ever been offered even the opportunity to obtain > appropriate documents? I know of plants destroyed because of a > simple typo the genus on the contents list, and "Nothing could be > done". > > I even know of shipments that were supposedly returned but then all > paperwork pertaining to the return was 'lost' along with the plants. > > It is hardly a system that inspires confidence. > > T> So what really happens?> When the plants are presented or > discovered at the ports of entry in > the USA. Certain documents are > necessary to allow those plants to > enter. As mentioned the Phyto > is the most important document. For rare > plants, a CITES document. > Because the US is currently busy funding a > freedom operation to > the folks in the middle east, government > resources are limited and > now importers myst pay a small fee for an > CITES import permit $70 > which is every two years (don't be too > concerned- because in the > very near future, the price will triple to > about $350 for all > import permits- Thanks be to George).> If you don't have the > documents- the government has to follow some > specific guidelines > to process the plant material.> 1. the importer is provided 21 days > to obtain the necessary documents > from the exporting country. The > plants sit in a not so nice place > (usually depending of the plant > inspection station it's as good as > they have) at least > it's not anything like where the plants were > growing prior to > being transported to the USA.> After this period of time, the > importer should be contacted to verify > that they have produced the > documents or the plants will be sent to > the country of export or > to a rescue center.> Usually 15 days is the grace period for this.> > If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the > > country of export and offer the material back to that country. The > > exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time > > this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and > Wildlife > who looks art the address of the importer and follows a > list of > available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue > center NOT > the same as the address or State of the importer. Too > many folks at > botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually > the government > figured it out.> Then, now almost 60 days after the > initial import into the USA, the > plants are off to a > rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in > bad shape. > Definitely not happy plants.> > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:01:34 -0500 From: "Eugene Zielinski" <eez55@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper (bird) names To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Message-ID: <380-2200712124413462@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII No we don't. Scientific names are for ornithologists. Because there are relatively few species of birds (compared to plants), North American birders are able to use standardized English names. Jim McK used the term sparrow hawk in a recent e mail. While perfectly valid, this name is not the official name; the official name is American Kestrel. If you mentioned sparrow hawk, duck hawk, or pigeon hawk to a younger birder, he may not know what you're talking about. Mention American Kestrel, Peregrine Falcon, or Merlin, and he will (or should.) The American Ornithologists' Union determines the official North American names. There are a few checklists that establish English names for birds worldwide; the best known and most used is probably Clements. A few years back, the New World chickadees were split off from the Old World chickadees. Originally, both were in the genus Parus; the New World birds were put into the genus Poecile. The American birding community barely noticed. At about the same time, Oldsquaw was officially changed to Long-tailed Duck. This caused a minor ruckus. Incidentally, I've seen Northern-Beardless Tyrannulets, Masked Boobies, Golden-winged Warblers, and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers -- and more. Gene Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA USA > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:07:52 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > > When I look at bird lists, there are wonderful common names: Golden > Spangled Whatevers, Northern Beardless-Tyrannulets. > > Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant > folks? > > > > Diane Whitehead > > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:06:33 -0800 (PST) From: piaba <piabinha@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [pbs] names To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <118481.84992.qm@web51905.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > What I find amusing in this discusion is that > nobody has commented on the > > subject header - and also, given the sensitivity > of spam filters, it has > > still got through with such a suggestive title. At > least its not trying to > > sell us viagra. or Hoodia. i wonder how many legitimate emails about Hoodia don't reach their destination... john, considering your email address is @virgin.net, yes, you should blush on reading about naked ladies... :-) is the concept of "cline" similar to a species complex? my big pet peeve about names is how we overuse certain names, such as "lily". we call everything a lily! i think even some ginger, in addition to Lillium, Zantedeschia, Convallaria, etc. ========= tsuh yang ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8… ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:07:25 -0500 From: "Eugene Zielinski" <eez55@earthlink.net> Subject: [pbs] FW: Re: Using proper (bird) names To: "PBS E mail list" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <380-22007121244725859@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII No we don't. Scientific names are for ornithologists. Because there are relatively few species of birds (compared to plants), North American birders are able to use standardized English names. Jim McK used the term sparrow hawk in a recent e mail. While perfectly valid, this name is not the official name; the official name is American Kestrel. If you mentioned sparrow hawk, duck hawk, or pigeon hawk to a younger birder, he may not know what you're talking about. Mention American Kestrel, Peregrine Falcon, or Merlin, and he will (or should.) The American Ornithologists' Union determines the official North American names. There are a few checklists that establish English names for birds worldwide; the best known and most used is probably Clements. A few years back, the New World chickadees were split off from the Old World chickadees. Originally, both were in the genus Parus; the New World birds were put into the genus Poecile. The American birding community barely noticed. At about the same time, Oldsquaw was officially changed to Long-tailed Duck. This caused a minor ruckus. Incidentally, I've seen Northern-Beardless Tyrannulets, Masked Boobies, Golden-winged Warblers, and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers -- and more. Gene Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA USA > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:07:52 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > > When I look at bird lists, there are wonderful common names: Golden > Spangled Whatevers, Northern Beardless-Tyrannulets. > > Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant > folks? > > > > Diane Whitehead > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:04:35 -0800 (PST) From: piaba <piabinha@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <757732.44637.qm@web51901.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Their blackbird is a member of the thrush family, > Turdidae and is very > closely related (same genus) to our robin. Our > blackbirds (the name is > applied to several species of several genera) are > placed in the Icteridae. funny you should mention that. just this week i was at a restaurant, and they had "blackfish" in the menu. i thought to myself, which one? ========= tsuh yang ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs/ ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:48:42 -0800 From: Marguerite English <meenglis@meenglis.cts.com> Subject: [pbs] Best wishes. To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <47700D1A.9060809@meenglis.cts.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed And to all of you this holiday. Please have a lovely Christmas season and a bulb-filled new year! Marguerite ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:57:04 -0800 From: Douglas Westfall <eagle85@flash.net> Subject: Re: [pbs] Merry Christmas To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <85A373E0-AF9D-47B1-9603-779C32733A73@flash.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes To ALL PBS members, have a wonderful Christmas and a happy,sober New Year. May all your Haemanthus, Scadoxus, and Hippeastrum have their best year ever! (I already have H. aulicum and H. papilio blooming. Doug Westfall In Long Beach,California ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:39:28 +1100 From: "Paul T." <ptyerman@ozemail.com.au> Subject: Re: [pbs] Merry Christmas To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Message-ID: <6a9ms5$7j7lhu@outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out1.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:57 AM 25/12/2007, you wrote: >To ALL PBS members, have a wonderful Christmas and a happy,sober New >Year. May all your Haemanthus, Scadoxus, and Hippeastrum have their >best year ever! (I already have H. aulicum and H. papilio blooming. Doug et al, Thanks for the best wishes everyone. Here's some more, this time from Australia. Have a most excellent Silly Season everyone, and may 2008 hold everything you want it to and much more!! Thanks to everyone for their wonderful help and sharing of knowledge in 2007. All the very best. Cheers. Paul T. Canberra, Australia (where it is 9:30am on Christmas morning!!) ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php End of pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 14 ***********************************