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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Question about Naked Ladies (J.E. Shields)
2. Subject headings (Mary Sue Ittner)
3. Rassenkries and Lilium grayi- canadense; was Re: Question
about Naked Ladies (Jim McKenney)
4. Re: Question about Naked Ladies (JamieV.)
5. Introgression. Was: Question about Naked Ladies (J.E. Shields)
6. Blooming now... was N...Ldies. (Marguerite English)
7. Commercial sales of protected plants (Jim McKenney)
8. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Marguerite English)
9. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Diane Whitehead)
10. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Donald Journet)
11. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Robin Hansen)
12. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Kenneth Hixson)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:41:40 -0500
From: "J.E. Shields" <jshields@indy.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about Naked Ladies
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071221140722.00b056a8@pop.indy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Steve, Jim McK., Jane, and all,

I also encountered the term Rassenkreis first in regard to Lepidoptera, but
specifically to the butterfly Junonia coenia, which also ranges from
Florida across the central USA to Mexico and Central America. It its case,
I think there is at best very limited fertility between the Florida and the
Central American forms, but with the same continuous fertility between
neighboring populations. Steve described the situation very well
indeed. I'm pretty fluent in German, but I also had to check the spelling
before proceeding with my original posting.

I thank Jim McK. for reassuring me that cline is also applicable. "Cline"
might be more botanical, or it might be just a matter of years. I
encountered "Rassenkreis" at least 40 years ago. It could easily have
fallen by the wayside in that length of time, especially considering the
degree of Anglicization of science in the intervening years.

Jane, I have not encountered "continuum" used in a biological sense
before. This probably shows how narrow my biology reading has been over
the years.

Whether Jim's Lilium greyii/canadense situation is a cline or a localized
intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related
species is perhaps debatable. I certainly don't know the situation with
Lilium.

Where you have two mutually interfertile species existing in sympatric
populations, if there is a barrier, they can be pretty stable. Introducing
the human element may be all that is needed to overcome such a barrier to
interbreeding. I can see where, over time, and intermediate population
could take over or it could be extinguished. If the parent species include
individuals that are not fertile with members of the other species, they
might prosper as the hybrids decrease.

Getting back to vernacular names, I'd say there are many things you simply
cannot discuss using vernacular names. On the other hand, the day is not
far off when species, local populations, and individuals will be identified
and defined by their DNA. It's just the direction things are going and
will continue to go, barring some Armageddon or other broad catastrophe.

Best wishes,
Jim Shields
in central Indiana (USA)

*************************************************
Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd.
P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/
Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA
Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:32:00 -0800
From: Mary Sue Ittner <msittner@mcn.org>
Subject: [pbs] Subject headings
To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20071221122450.0347fd40@mail.mcn.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Since my pleas asking people not to include the previous messages in their
responses often get ignored, I wasn't sure it would help to remind everyone
that is really does help to change the subject headings when you change the
subject. This list has more than 430 members and most of them don't read
every message and look to the subject to give them a clue whether to read
the message or just delete it. Lately the subject headings wouldn't help a
lot. Plus for those who read the archives or do a search on Google and just
look at the subject they would never go much further. And at least one
subscribers email has been rejecting messages with inappropriate content.
I'm not sure what this is, but it could be "Na.ed" ladies.

So since John brought it up, I going to ask you please to change the
subject heading to fit the subject when this is needed. And please don't
include the previous message, but if you must, only the part you are
responding to.

To those of you who already do this, thanks from all of us.

Mary Sue

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:39:33 -0500
From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com>
Subject: [pbs] Rassenkries and Lilium grayi- canadense; was Re:
Question about Naked Ladies
To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000a01c84411$987b9d70$2f01a8c0@Library>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jim S., you and I are about the same age I think. I'm of the Rassenkreis
generation, too. After posting my original message on this broad topic, I
happened to check the wiki entry for cline and noticed that that entry uses
a translation of Rassenkreis: ring species.

By the way, I was not suggesting that the situation with Lilium canadense
and L. grayi should be described as a cline. Cline, as usually understood,
does not really describe what can be seen there, where there is a rather
abrupt transition zone between one entity with a vast range (L. canadense)
and another entity which is highly localized (L. grayi). It's fun to
speculate about these things. Is Lilium canadense "capturing" Lilium grayi?
Is L. grayi infiltrating L. canadense? There is definitely something going
on between them. Jim, your description of the situation "a localized
intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related
species" is about the way I would describe it - but I would omit the words
"species" and "young".

Why? Aren't all sexually reproducing species of equal age? What does it mean
to call some young and by implication others old? Hasn't there been an
unbroken continuum of parents and progeny from the present back into
unimaginably distant time for all sexually reproducing organisms? I don't
consider my ancestry to be any younger than that of a turtle - it's just
that mine has not been so conservative and has been a lot less stable and a
lot more opportunistic.

One other note, this one definitely meant humorously. Lilium grayi is now
evidently well protected for most of the threats which it faced in the past
(poaching for instance) or potentially faces in the future (site development
for instance). But it seems to me that it still faces a real danger which,
I'll bet, has not been addressed: what are the protectors of Lilium grayi
going to do about the hummingbird problem? It's the hummingbirds which are
mixing things up here. Something's got to be done about them.

Jim McKenney
jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com
Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where it's time to get back to
potting bulbs (yes, I'm still at it).
My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/
BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/

Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS
Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/

Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:53:31 +0100
From: "JamieV." <jamievande@freenet.de>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about Naked Ladies
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <476C27CB.1050706@freenet.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Just a thought, but I think the term you are looking for is
'intergression'. It is often used when discussing reticulate evolution,
which is the evolutionary theory that speciation is like a group of
rivulets that flow in and out of each other over time, creating at any
given moment in time that what we define as species. Intergression is
the scale of diversity between two disparate entities, such as certain
life-forms that span the planet and show form diversity, in many papers
this is refered to hybridization. One could see the two ends of the
spectrum intergressing across the genetic diversity of intermediates or
hybrids.

I've noted that various 'schools' of science seem to use different
vocabularies to define similar principles. Sort of like the use of
common names....hmmm. Cline I remember from my school years, refering
to a series of related entities and also fits the definition partially,
while Rassenkreis, which literally translates to circle of races, ist
mir neu (is new to me!). I would think this is the same thing as cline.
I think most schools now use clade, the relation groups/units used for
cladistics.

In the big picture all things are related and the result of continuous
evolutionary flow. That would be intergression in the reticulate
sense. Now, if we could just nail the evolution of the involved
vocabulary! I get the feeling the names have been altered, as the need
to hone the definition has evolved, which means, depending on when a
particular text was published, the vocabulary may need to be translated.

It this getting confusing?

Wishing you all a wonderful holiday season,

Jamie V.
Cologne
Germany

J.E. Shields schrieb:

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:41:24 -0500
From: "J.E. Shields" <jshields@indy.net>
Subject: [pbs] Introgression. Was: Question about Naked Ladies
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071221163458.0360c408@pop.indy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Jamie,

Close, but probably no cigar! I think the word is "introgression" -- the
introduction of a gene from one species into another through hybridization
and backcrossing (more or less).

Between the lot of us, we seem to eventually get there...... I could not
find the "-gression" part on my own. When you provided it, it only took me
two or three hours to come up with the "intro-" part.

As for Jim McK.'s hummingbirds, there is probably nothing we can do about
them. Maybe put up lots of hummingbird feeders around the hybrid
populations, to limit their further reproduction?

This all started with a perfectly legitimate and innocent question from
Marguerite, about what the real name for some "Naked Ladies" that grow in
her town might be.

Regards,
Jim Shields

At 09:53 PM 12/21/2007 +0100, you wrote:

*************************************************
Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd.
P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/
Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA
Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:30:12 -0800
From: Marguerite English <meenglis@meenglis.cts.com>
Subject: [pbs] Blooming now... was N...Ldies.
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <476C4C84.5030905@meenglis.cts.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

And it has gone in a fascinating direction, as always in the forum.
My long-term choice is to buy one of each possibility for this spring
and check them out more thoroughly than I have in the past...

One of my favorite blues is now showing off in the plant room. Morea
polystacha has one of the best blue colors there is! Each blossom
doesn't last long, but there has been a new one each day for several
days now. I have been trying to feed my winter-blooming bulbs better,
and it does seem to make a difference. Also some red cyclamen (I don't
know the species, and hesitate to call them Florist Cyclamen (g)) just
in time for Christmas.

Also blooming although not geophytes: Streptocarpus in a hanging
pot, a few orchids, and the camellias. I keep reading that camellias
are hardy outside here, but I get nasty Santa Ana winds just as they
start blooming, so they are much better inside.

J.E. Shields wrote:

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:32:09 -0500
From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com>
Subject: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants
To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000a01c84429$b5d915b0$2f01a8c0@Library>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I?ve been reading a lot lately about Lilium grayi and the efforts to protect
it. The nominal species is evidently still in commerce.

It occurred to me that it would make good sense to have government
subsidized programs to propagate certain endangered plant species and to
support their establishment as commercial crops. The chief advantage of this
is that it would kill the incentives for poaching and allow the widespread
distribution of germplasm. The plant loving public would get their plants,
and by removing the economic incentives for poaching, the wild populations
would be under much reduced pressures from collectors.

It seems to me that most of the current management programs I know about
have the opposite effect: they result in the concentration and localization
of germplasm and they (unintentionally I?m sure) enhance the perception
that the plants are worth having simply because they are rare. There is an
undeniable cachet in having rare plants ? newspaper articles about the cycad
cult were a good expos? of this.

I know some object to such an approach because it might result in the
willy-nilly distribution of material which would obfuscate distribution
studies. Modern technology might come to the rescue here: if records of the
DNA fingerprints of the plants distributed are kept, that should obviate
that objection.

How do the rest of you feel about this?

Jim McKenney

jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com

Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7

My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/

BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/

Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS

Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/

Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/

Jim McKenney

jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com

Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7

My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/

BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/

Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS

Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/

Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:16:28 -0800
From: Marguerite English <meenglis@meenglis.cts.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <476C575C.9090802@meenglis.cts.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Seems to me that the government doesn't have a charter for this. What
about the Lily group or even PBS developing a program to propagate and
distribute such species, and working for a legal way to handle protected
species. This could start with rescue of threatened populations. It
would require someone to come up with a well-defined program, and an
adequate means of distribution. Could this be a more effective way to
go about the protection of endangered plants?

Jim McKenney wrote:

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:41:03 -0800
From: Diane Whitehead <voltaire@islandnet.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <3D45DC3E-36D5-4A62-97AD-EAD2B98044E7@islandnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

I know this was done to protect two newly-discovered plants, a new
species of Clivia in South Africa, and a new conifer in Australia.

I haven't seen the clivia for sale, but the Wollemi pine has been
bought by friends of mine for a bit over $100.

Diane

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:52:25 +1100
From: Donald Journet <donjournet@netspace.net.au>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <476C5FC9.7000908@netspace.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Wollemi pine is now selling for a lot less than $100 in Australia. I
think it may be down to $25 now.
Don Journet

Diane Whitehead wrote:

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:53:52 -0800
From: "Robin Hansen" <hansennursery@coosnet.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants
To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <008001c84435$218ca500$8df064d0@homed4aec9b2d8>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Margureite,

You address a sore spot that has irked me for years. What's the good of putting something on the endangered list and not allowing people to legitimately propagate and sell these plants?

It's all very well to preserve genetic material and reintroduce it into previous native habitats, but who knows how successful those reintroductions are. Then we have the case of Cyclamen somalense.

It has been years since this was collected; the three plants brought out of Somalia may have bloomed but have not (to my knowledge) set seed.

This plant may be lost before we ever get a chance to save it. Granted this is an extreme example, but Russ Graham can tell you a great horror story about what happens when a state (in this case Oregon) found out he was growing an endangered plant (and may also have offered the option of turning it over to the uncertain future fo state custody) and demanded that he destroy his stock. I don't recall the plant but it was one specialist growers were able to grow. It may not have ever entered the mainstream of good garden growers, but certainly would not have disappeared.

So finding a way to legitimize commercial growing of endangered plants is something worth working for.

Robin Hansen
Cyclamen specialist

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:09:43 -0800
From: Kenneth Hixson <khixson@nu-world.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <476C63D7.7070308@nu-world.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Marguerite English wrote:

Seems to me a couple things are not being mentioned
here, such as the fact that if a private (ie, commercial)
source were to make endangered species available, there would
be no need for a government worker to do the "rescue", and
no need for a government manager to submit grant requests, etc.
Big brother has repeatedly shown that only big brother is
looking out for what is best for us--even if we disagree.
The North American Lily Society has an affiliated group--
called the Species Lily Preservation Group, with a propagation
and distribution (sales)program. Membership requires dues
(to the SPLG). I don't happen to be a member, so I don't know
to what extent the recent illness of Ed McRae has affected
the program, but other members of PBS are, and probably
can give further details. The URL for the lily society is:

http://www.lilies.org/

The Species Lily Preservation Group:

http://www.lilies.org/slpg.html
Dues are listed at $12.00/year.

In these days of tissue culture, it only takes
a stem tip, or an immature bud, to produce thousands of
plants--or any number desired. The techniques and procedures
are known, the facilities are available, it just takes
money, a little time, and the willingness on the part
of big brother to allow it to happen. We could be
re-establishing rare/endangered plant species back into
suitable habitats, without government funded programs.
If big brother wants to fund it, it could be done without
any more governmental programs. Alternatively, something
like the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) or Forest Service,
the Soil Conservation Service, or state land grant Universities
could oversee this kind of program.

Idealistic? Yes, but it could happen.

Ken

------------------------------

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End of pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 11
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