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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Email list and forum (David Pilling)
2. Re: Email list and forum (Lesley Richardson)
3. Re: pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 8 (Denis Kearns)
4. Re: Email list and forum (Matt Mattus)
5. Re: Email list and forum (Diane Whitehead)
6. Re: Email list and forum (R Hansen)
7. Next EU BX in the pipeline (Uli)
8. Re: Email list and forum (Jan Jeddeloh)
9. Re: Email list and forum (R Hansen)
10. Re: Email list and forum (Bridget Wosczyna)
11. Re: Email list and forum (michaelcmace@gmail.com)
12. Re: Email list and forum (Christine Doud)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 12:52:09 +0000
From: David Pilling <david@davidpilling.com>
To: pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net
Subject: Re: [pbs] Email list and forum
Message-ID: <b52e73c6-222c-bac9-0f64-fa2227bccbb9@davidpilling.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Hi,

From my perspective, the forum came from users not from the board. We
had years of the 'list being criticized as unfit to be on the internet,
and a forum being touted as the solution.

We're not limited to the current mailman 2 software. Let me know if you
have a better solution.

My preferences:

open source, non-proprietary, free
ability for users to choose their delivery format (html or text,
pictures or not)
web-archive which we own
run under PBS domain name.

There's the 'audience' problem, we've run a low bandwidth text maillist
for many years, the current users are those who like that solution.
Changing to anything else will upset more than it will please.

I like groups.io the admin burden is much smaller. What I have against
it, is that they want a lot of money to run it under your own domain.

I can flick a switch and this will be a html 'list with pictures. But is
anyone going to be unhappy when they get 100MB of pictures in their
mailbox.

When we did have pictures on the 'list, I got complaints that the size
allowed (many MB) was too small.

--
David Pilling
http://www.davidpilling.com/

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 07:36:01 -0800
From: Lesley Richardson <lesleykayrichardson@gmail.com>
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>
Cc: Johannes-Ulrich Urban <johannes-ulrich-urban@t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Email list and forum
Message-ID:
<CAGLnzBwG+wtV7YBOdR8-=-
Og_OepZSwJ3RJc_esrfQ_3kCTY1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Agree with Ulrich. Keeping a website, emails etc., safe from being hacked
and in good order is a lot of work and I am grateful, even as a lapsed
member. The knowledge shared so freely with us all is priceless.
Lesley

On Sun, Feb 12, 2023, 5:21 PM Johannes-Ulrich Urban via pbs <
pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> wrote:

would

consider

to

have

internet

the

opening

Forum,

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:15:12 -0800
From: Denis Kearns <bogdmk@gmail.com>
To: pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net
Subject: Re: [pbs] pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 8
Message-ID:
<CALenvZE1eVtk7tt4aeN2X=SGk9VKODWeQHf1N3=
es1uw0Xvp7A@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Just wanted to express my appreciation for all the great folks who have
volunteered their time in making PBS an excellent society and web
presence. Although the email that caused some excitement was unfortunate,
the reality is that certain individuals have personality traits destructive
to the cooperative environment needed for the PBS board. I?ve been
involved with various groups and have experienced the damage a single
individual can do. I applaud the board in recognizing and avoiding the
problems from an unsuitable candidate.

And now, an opinion: Cuba has many issues, but they do value education
(literacy rate in 2022 was almost 100% versus 79% for US) and all citizens
have access to high quality health care. In light of that, I do appreciate
the PBS following Cuba?s example with our strong emphasis on education and
a concern for the health of our society and our plants.

Cheers and my Dichleostemmas are blooming,

-Denis

Message: 4
On Sunday, 12 Feb 2023 at 16:42:45 Robert Lauf via pbs <
pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net:

Yes, it would be nice to allow members to vote on lots of things, but the
PBS governance model appears to be patterned on that of Cuba.? The Board
essentially elects its own members from a list of candidates they select
via an arbitrary, capricious, and completely opaque process, much like the
Politburo.? We were recently (inadvertently) given a glimpse into the inner
workings and attitudes at the Mother Ship and it wasn't a pretty picture.?
Nor surprisingly, many excellent people have better things to do than try
to improve things in the face of resistance, secrecy, and outright abuse.?
Is it any wonder that volunteers are hard to find in this environment?
It's time to send a few of the Commissars off the the Gulag and start
over.? Just my opinion, but feel free to make it your own.
Bob? Zone 7

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:29:12 -0500
From: Matt Mattus <mmattus@charter.net>
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Email list and forum
Message-ID: <349102A1-A87E-4882-B496-5F97421A13EB@charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Has the board discussed using Instagram?

This is probably a comment for far left field, but...so forgive me, as I'm
new to this current discussion...

....but, for me:

The email lists are invasive when most of us receive 100+ emails a day
from elsewhere
Then and forums feel like a technology that's quickly becoming outdated as
they require more steps and time (navigation and logging in).

I imagine that there are many members already on Instagram, and it's
becoming the first plant I look when searching for images of a rare bulb,
though my second source remains the PBS. I suspect that I am not alone.

Just curious. If this discussed already, my apologies.

Matt
Matt Mattus

Zone 6a
Worcester, MA

?On 2/12/23, 11:36 PM, "pbs on behalf of Steve Marak via pbs" <
pbs-bounces@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net <mailto:
pbs-bounces@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> on behalf of
pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net <mailto:pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>>
wrote:

Hi Uli, Garak, and all,

As someone who is known to be skeptical of forums, I feel obliged to
respond.

First, I'll go out on a limb and say that I don't think people are
complaining that they didn't know the forum was coming, so much as that
there was really no debate and no one but the Board had any say in the
matter. That of course touches on the other matter being discussed today.

Personally, I have used forums since very soon after they appeared on
the scene, both personally and professionally. In the beginning, I also
hailed them as the coming thing which would surely be a great
improvement on that (all of a few decades old, at that time) dinosaur,
the mailing list. Unfortunately, newer is not always better. I'm not a
forum fan simply because things which were easy and intuitive with the
mailing list are now painful, and in a few cases apparently impossible,
with the forum. I can give you specific examples, and will privately if
you like, but that would be a rather long note. (I know this because I
wrote it, and after seeing the length, discarded it.)

I can and do use the forum - I worked with IT for many years. I get
frustrated with its shortcomings and quirks (it seems every one is
configured differently), but I have no fear of it. I will contribute
less than I did via email because the forum, even with a browser tab
left permanently open to it, is a pain. My sense is that a lot of other
people are contributing less than they used to, too. And I know specific
PBS members who are simply not going to make that transition at all. It
makes little sense to me to say "we have to worry about people who can
post to the mailing list but can't attach a picture" but NOT worry about
the people we're going to lose entirely, or whose contributions we will
reduce, if we take the mailing list away. They're less important?

Nothing, forum or email, is completely trouble free. But I'm a member of
mailing lists that have thousands of subscribers, allow image
attachments, and rarely have any issues (I know this because I know the
admins, and in one case have served as an emergency admin myself), so I
know it can be done. Now, doing it with Mailman, as David is forced to
do, is much harder; he and I have had some private discussion about that
already, and there are definitely issues. This should not be construed
as any criticism of David, by the way - the issues are not his fault,
he spends a lot of time on PBS, and we're lucky to have him involved. He
deserves more thanks from us than he probably gets.

(I've been meaning to ping you about a Zantedeschia that came from you
many years ago, but as a peace offering after this post I'll do that on
the forum!)

Steve

On 2/12/2023 7:21 PM, Johannes-Ulrich Urban via pbs wrote:

would like to mention some points.

start the forum. Within the email list there was more and more criticism
that it was technically outdated and very many people had difficulties in
posting pictures or did not succeed at all. Every time this happened the
issue was taken on individually by our webmaster David who is working in
the background, mostly invisible but still like clockwork. Please consider
his workload which had to be reduced. So pictures can no longer be posted
in the old email list. The management of an email list is also a time
consuming process handled by several members, invisible and in the
background as well.

sighed not only once about the chain of replies to replies to replies??
often difficult to find the actual new message; that alone was a reason to
do something about it.

some participants. Speaking for myself I found it difficult too and I have
always liked the email list. My very first start with a computer, internet
and email was with this list and the Pacific Bulb Society. I am not the
youngest and I am for sure not a computer nerd??

the board members if you need assistance.

very easy, just try. I counted the clicks, you need 3 (three) after opening
the PBS website. After these three clicks you can see loads of good
pictures, or participate in discussions. (Open the website, Click on Forum,
then for example on Current Photographs and another click on February
Photos will open many current pictures. You can click on any pictures to
enlarge it. That would be the fourth click??

in the same friendly way as usual.

pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>

http://lists.pacificbulbsociety.net/cgi-bin/…>

<mailto:pbs-unsubscribe@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>>

https://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbsforum/index.php/… <
https://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbsforum/index.php/…>

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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:33:51 -0800
From: Diane Whitehead <ldiane.whitehead@gmail.com>
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Email list and forum
Message-ID: <22CAD951-70BD-40DC-BEB0-BB4B53CFFB84@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Matt Mattus via pbs <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> wrote:

I think a couple of my grandchildren use Instagram but when I receive an
email about it, I can see a photo from them, but no written information.

Diane

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:42:59 -0800
From: "R Hansen" <bulbnut@hansennursery.com>
To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Email list and forum
Message-ID: <002701d93fda$fef638f0$fce2aad0$@hansennursery.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't Instagram optimized for mobile/android
phones? In my opinion not a good way to view photos of plants, especially
closeups... And then there are the advertisements? And text is important
for
PBS folks, if not almost more so than photos...

Robin Hansen
Snow threatening

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com/

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 21:20:27 +0000
From: Uli <johannes-ulrich-urban@t-online.de>
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>
Subject: [pbs] Next EU BX in the pipeline
Message-ID: <5bd0945c-b183-f520-3f31-394da200a76f@t-online.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Dear All,

Spring is knocking at our doors, so the next EU Seed And Bulb Exchange
(BX) is in the pipeline. Please think of your fellow members when you
start repotting and sowing, surplus material is most welcome. As usual
we will do two spring exchanges, the first one for mainly seed will be
scheduled around mid March, the second one for mainly bulbs will be
later. This has worked well in the past. We are never sure how the
weather will be like in March, that is why we do a second round for the
more frost sensitive summer growing bulbs. Seed is much less prone to
damage than bulbs.

This is only a notice, please do not send anything as yet; we will
announce the opening of the donation time window in due course through
all the channels. If you need seed envelopes for your future donation,
the PBS offers them free of charge, please get in touch with Martin
Bohnet? <garak@code-garak.de> who will send them to you.

All the information on the EU Seed and Bulb Exchange can be found here:

?https://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbsforum/index.php/…

Please remember that the EU Seed and bulb exchange is only open to fully
paid members with a delivery address in the EU. You do not need to be a
donor to be entitled to participate. This is a notice for the EU only,
the US exchanges follow different schedules.

And please do not hesitate to contact Uli Urban
(johannes-ulrich-urban@t-online.de) in case of questions.

Bye for now

Uli and Martin

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 16:57:36 -0800
From: Jan Jeddeloh <seedyjan1@gmail.com>
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Email list and forum
Message-ID: <CDE46CAB-11C7-4E49-A3C5-CD244D15F9BD@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Yes Instagram is optimized for mobile devices. It?s designed for pictures
and there sure as hell are ads. It?s really hard to post pictures on from
a computer, at least a Mac. I really don?t think Instagram should be our
main way of communicating with people although it?s a very nice additional
way of attracting members. Do we have an official Instagram site because
if we don?t we should.

Jan

pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> wrote:

for

https://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbsforum/index.php/…

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 17:03:27 -0800
From: "R Hansen" <bulbnut@hansennursery.com>
To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Email list and forum
Message-ID: <006401d94010$261cb410$72561c30$@hansennursery.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Well, if PBS has an Instagram site, does that mean we need a moderator?
Because I think PBS web volunteers have more than enough to do now but at
the same time, having various folks scattered here and there moderating
different software is not a good idea in terms of left hand vs. right hand.

pictures and there sure as hell are ads. It?s really hard to post pictures
on from a computer, at least a Mac. I really don?t think Instagram should
be our main way of communicating with people although it?s a very nice
additional way of attracting members. Do we have an official Instagram
site because if we don?t we should.

Robin Hansen
Wet, cold, windy

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com/

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:35:51 -0500
From: Bridget Wosczyna <fritchick@gmail.com>
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Email list and forum
Message-ID: <EACD7DC5-CA4B-4243-BD6C-688081478BEF@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I would happily handle an Instagram account for PBS. (I often post on my
account about PBS.)

I could pull pics and info from the wiki and make posts. (Would give photo
credits, etc).

I?m very active on Instagram so give me the green light and consider it
done.

B

pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> wrote:

Because I think PBS web volunteers have more than enough to do now but at
the same time, having various folks scattered here and there moderating
different software is not a good idea in terms of left hand vs. right hand.

pictures and there sure as hell are ads. It?s really hard to post pictures
on from a computer, at least a Mac. I really don?t think Instagram should
be our main way of communicating with people although it?s a very nice
additional way of attracting members. Do we have an official Instagram
site because if we don?t we should.

https://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbsforum/index.php/…

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:46:13 -0800
From: <michaelcmace@gmail.com>
To: <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Email list and forum
Message-ID: <024701d9402f$44c6cc60$ce546520$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This is a helpful discussion. For some reason I had thought that the intent
was to gradually kill off the mailing list and move all discussion to the
forum. I am glad to hear that's not the case.

I am very content to let the forum and mail list survive side by side, and
to let Charles Darwin sort out what happens to them long term.

I think the biggest risk to the survival of both is that Facebook and other
social media sites have captured much of the attention of the younger
generations. There's a lot of interest in bulbs among younger people, but
they're interacting mostly in social media. I wouldn't even mind that, but
the way they work puts the focus almost completely on photos. It's very
difficult to have a meaningful written discussion there, which is what I've
always loved about PBS.

Many thanks to the small group of stalwarts who have been keeping the
lights
on.

Mike
San Jose, CA
Min temp 20F / -6C

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:57:10 -0800
From: Christine Doud <christinedoud@shasta.com>
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Email list and forum
Message-ID: <237DD176-5D6D-45F2-89ED-F257E43ADF32@shasta.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

You are a peach Bridget!! You must have lots of energy and be very
organized.

Christine

pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> wrote:

my account about PBS.)

photo credits, etc).

done.

pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net> wrote:

moderator? Because I think PBS web volunteers have more than enough to do
now but at the same time, having various folks scattered here and there
moderating different software is not a good idea in terms of left hand vs.
right hand.

pictures and there sure as hell are ads. It?s really hard to post pictures
on from a computer, at least a Mac. I really don?t think Instagram should
be our main way of communicating with people although it?s a very nice
additional way of attracting members. Do we have an official Instagram
site because if we don?t we should.

https://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbsforum/index.php/…

https://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbsforum/index.php/…

------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

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End of pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 9
**********************************