Re comment from Erik: I think the intention rather than the specifics of the law is most important. For example, I see no problem whatsoever with removing and bringing into local cultivation any such plants that are in an area that is going to be "developed". If their fate is certain death, then whatever preserves them is best. Of course in an ideal world they should never have their habitats facing such dangers, but that is not the world we live in today. Outside of that, depending on the species, a sustainable collection of say no more than 10% of the seeds produced, assuming large numbers are in fact produced, is also reasonable as the vast majority of seeds don't become mature plants in the wild (predation and such) and such a low percentage being collected would not likely affect wild populations. In any case, the dissemination of seed is preferable to plant material as it has much less risk of carrying pathogens, doesn't encourage "poaching" of wild plants in stabl e safe habitats, and helps to ensure there is some genetic diversity in the cultivated material derived from it. In many cases, it might also be necessary to have more than one clone in cultivation to allow further seed production,but I do not know if this lily is self incompatible or not. Nor do I know exactly how threatened it is in the wild. Right here in the US I can give a case in point of a stupid regulation. Nursery propagated federally listed species cannot be sold and mailed across state lines without some kind of very expensive and hard to get permit. The nursery can sell them instate though. If a selection of the species is made and given a cultivar name, from what I have heard this can be one way to circumvent this regulation. Ditto for any hybrids made from it. Also if a rare and localized species is discovered and propagated before it gets formally described in the scientific literature, it can also be disseminated freely until it is in fact described and then federally listed as endangered. The most important thing to do is to protect the habitat of the endangered species, manage it if necessary (for example some need periodic controlled burns as they are early successional species and will die out if shrubs and trees take over due to fire suppression). Beyond that there should be some mechanis m in place to allow collection of limited amounts of propagation material and then whatever is propagated in nurseries should be allowed to be sold to anyone that wants it. But the laws meant to protect these species discourage the latter, for no really good reason. Some purists worry about "genetic pollution" but that is a small issue in the larger scheme of things, with accelerating global climate change and more conversion of land to human uses as our population continues to outstrip the capacity of the planet to support us. Then factor in the increasing number of failed states, a situation likely to worsen in coming decades (just was discussing this to my AP Environmental Science students on Friday, before the horrors of what happened in Paris made the news) with the resulting breakdown in law and order anyway and the need for ex situ conservation and storage of germplasm in seed banks becomes even more obvious. Ernie DeMarie in NY where I plan to plant lots of legal Dutch grown bulbs in my gardens today as the online bulb folks discount their end of season stock. -----Original Message----- From: Erik Van Lennep <erik@tepuidesign.com> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2015 2:15 am Subject: Re: [pbs] Seeds of Lilium ledebourii for (questionable) sale So, what are members' opinions on dodging the international protocols for protecting endangered species? Because this is precisely what is being suggested in this thread..... > > > > On Saturday, November 14, 2015 10:32 PM, Mohammad Sadegh < > iranaquatic@yahoo.ca> wrote: > > > > ........ i write only "Lilium Seeds" , I can't write Lilium ledebourii > on envelope .for further discussion please answer privately > > Mohammad SadeghArdabil ,Iran > > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/