Sorry for the personal exchange on the list. My e-mail server doesn't like Tony's address, unless it comes through the list. Something about "delight" perhaps? Tony and I are working on hardy crinum forms. While the ones we've traded seem to be perfectly hardy here, once in the ground, I have had some losses in the past with late season plantings. Hardy forms include x-powellii, bulbispermum, variabile, [bulbispermum x lugardiae ex KZN], and most recently and most attractive, [variabile x bulbispermum]. Crinum lugardiae ex KZN is not at all hardy here itself, and [macowanii x bulbispermum] are barely hardy here, and don't bloom outdoors in the ground. My planting of [variabile x bulbispermum] outdoors sets abundant seed, probably all sibling F2 crosses by bees, and a few of those seeds fall under the mulch and survive. I have a few self-seeded, volunteer, presumed F2 plants out there. And this in central Indiana, which used to be USDA zone 5 but is probably zone 6 now. Stay tuned for future developments! Jim Shields in Westfield, Indiana ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Lat. 40° 02.8' N, Long. 086° 06.6' W