Taxonomy is a hoot! It is a fascinating and frustrating area of science that seems to be the least dependent upon facts and the most open to opinion. There is no ultimately right answer - ever. Once the facts (whatever characters are being measured) have been established they can be used as evidence to make whatever argument the taxonomist wants, even conveniently ignoring several if they don't fit the desired end result. Just moving a ruler up or down a dendrogram can create and destroy huge entities like families. It should also be remembered that many taxonomic decisions are based upon the analysis of facts derived from herbarium material - which often bears no resemblance to the living plant, is often wrongly identified in the first place, and by definition is a single entity which can't possibly be representative of all the populations out there in nature. Dylan said "Botanists will be forever arranging and rearranging these units, and the units themselves may change, but we can still recognize many natural groups without undue worry about how they fit in the scheme of things". True - because there is no scheme of things. The taxonomists union has an unwritten rule that no two people ever work in the same area to ensure that 1) there are enough plants to go around and 2) someone's opinion will always be right until the next installment comes along. Long live taxonomy - even if it is just an opinion. Best, J. PS. I am a card carrying taxonomist - my thesis involved taxonomic studies of a bizarre group of acidophilic actinomycetes that live in acid coal mine wastes. Really important stuff - my mum never knew what to say when folks asked her what I did. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/ USDA Zone 6b