Ben Zonneveld wrote: "I know the story about Clusius ( I work at the Clusius lab,!) and Busbeq. I don't doubt he got them in several colours from seed. Does that prove that these were already cultivated tulips? I don't think so as several species can be found in the wild with a mixture of colours Like T clusiana and T kaufmanniana. In the wild there are many too with mixed colours I saw beautiful yellow edged T greigii ( normally red)in the wild. A different colored edge often comes from unicolored parents. That is not due to a virus I think there is something we are missing in this thread about the tulips of Clusius. Although it is true that Clusius used the word seed to describe the entities Busbeq sent him, there is reason to believe that he meant the word metaphorically, not literally. In his account in his Historia, he describes these entities as "Magnum seminis... quod vetusta essent, & vieta, vixque nascitura.)" - loosely translated into plain English, "Lots of seed...old, shriveled and scarcely to be germinated". Anyone who has grown tulips from seed knows that tulip seeds don't shrivel. Ten year old tulip seeds look just like freshly harvested tulip seeds. Wild tulips produce hard seeds separated by thin, papery chaff. Garden tulips often produce shriveled seeds and seeds separated by wet, rubbery aborted seeds. Tulip bulbs kept out of the ground for a year however will be shriveled. This suggests that what Clusius received were either old shriveled bulbs or the sort of partially shriveled seed often seen in garden tulips. With respect to the existence of species which show color variation, and in particular with respect to Tulipa clusiana (in the contemporary sense of that combination) I would be surprised to learn that the various color forms are sympatric. Tulipa kaufmanniana on the other hand does seem to exist in populations which show color variation. And I suspect that such variable populations are themselves the result of recent hybridization in nature as formerly separate populations merge. Furthermore, simple color variations often behave as simple recessive traits in breeding. In other words, if you cross a typical plant with one which shows a simple recessive color variation, the variation is not likely to appear in the progeny in the first generation. It will only appear in subsequent generations when there is the chance that the recessive pairs can match up with one another. Thus, if the seeds or bulbs which Clusius got had been produced from parents one of which was typical and the other of which had a simple recessive color variation, the chances are that all of the flowers seen in the first generation would be typical: one would not expect the sort of variation Clusius reported in the first generation, only in subsequent generations. I say this evidence adds to the point of view that the material Clusisus received was of hybrid origin and more than likely of garden hybrid origin. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where Notholirion thomsonianum is putting up foliage. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/ BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/ Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/