Hey all Yeah, neither the herbicides nor the surfactants are good for the environment and those that are trying to eek out a living within it. It is also relatively unknown what effects may be caused by the chemicals created as these products breakdown in the environment. I understand that it has been shown that some important soil fungi are not present in fields where roundup has been heavily used. I prefer to do all my weeding by hand and will tolerate some less than tidy flowerbeds until I can do it by that method. My knowledge gained by accident and a moment of weakness when weeds seemed to be getting the best of me was enough of a "lesson" to a lack of shortcuts. I much prefer the arthropods, frogs, toads, salamanders to a sterile unnatural cleanliness and to boot a dozen Crinums did not flower this year for the first time in four seasons. I don't need my MTV, but I do need Cape Dawn with a deafening chorus of grey treefrogs! Alani Davis