Dear Jane et al; Isn't it odd that color terms related/derived from plants seem so totally at odds. Examples Roses are red - you get this response from many people, but isn't the color 'rose' another distinctly different shade? and Violets are neither blue or rarely violet, but more often purple, yellow, etc. Ebony (the wood/tree) is far from black. I'm sure there are more plant related colors: lilacs, pinks, orchid, primrose, cerise (from the french for 'cherry'), etc. Speaking of black, 'Black' flowers are almost always far from black, but usually a deep red or purple. In fact pure colors especially red and blue ("red' iris, 'Blue' roses?) are fairly uncommon in nature. This is easily shown by taking a small square of construction paper of a pure red or blue color and lining it up with a flower said to be red or blue. (also true of black and white). And this seems to hold up more when you have pale 'colors'. Pale yellow may be tan, cream or even pink etc. Color is very personal and often has a meaning unrelated to the evidence. This difference between perception and reality is one of the reasons the RHS chart works so well and does not use names for its colors, just numbers. This avoids the associations that color names carry with them. By comparing flower colors through a small aperture, the RHS color charts eliminates surrounding/competing colors, isolates the color you are seeking and somewhat evens the perception of the actual color sample. Jane, it makes editing an even harder job. best Jim W -- Dr. James W. Waddick Near KCI Airport Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F +