Here we go again! Is N. felipponei the correct name for N. sellowianum? Diana ----- Original Message ----- From: <Antennaria@aol.com> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Ipheion 'Rolf Fiedler' > Regarding the ongoing discussion of Ipheion vs. Tristagma. I'll be as free > with my opinion as others. Regarding the yellow species, sometimes referred to > as Ipheion, I have been long since convinced that they are more appropriate > under Nothoscordum, following Thad Howard's impression of the genus. I grow > most of the yellow species, and while the assertion seems probable, I often > wonder about the relationship between the multi-flowered species, such as N. > montevidense, ostenii, minarum, versus the much larger single-flowered species which > seem rather different, such as felipponei, hirtellum, and dialystemon > (felipponei in flower as I write). The latter group of yellow species seems very > different than the first group of yellow species. > > >>The entire Ipheion genus was subsumed > >>into Tristagma since at least 1963? Is this true? > >=================================== > >Have you been hiding under a rock somewhere? > >They are! I took the citations I quoted from the > >International Plant Names Index, so they are > >readily available on the Web to anyone > >interested in pursuing the matter. > > Wow! All subtlety aside and sarcasm running amuck. I haven't experienced > such a definitive consensus. What amazes me, even in more recent publications, > more recent than 1963, is the waivering of S. American taxononomic status, not > only among species, but to which of the many genera they are ascribed to. > Almost all of the "yellow Ipheions" have been ascribed to 4 or more genera, which I > find dazzling and indicative of a taxonomic mess. > > Back in the 1980s I saw Tristagma nivale in bloom, and to consider this the > same as most "so-called" Ipheions is a great stretch. Of course, there will > DNA studies on these that'll prove without a shadow of doubt that they are all > actually Compositae ;-) (now, that's a bit of sarcasm). > > >Just a quick Google search for Tristagma uniflorum > >turned up dozens of reference sites in several > >languages whose authors were at least aware > >of the synonymy > > Demonstrating the number of "hits" on a google search is rather meaningless, > because you'll find just as many hits under whatever genus name you want to > search under. Google searches are not a measure of what taxonomic opinion is > valid, albeit, they are interesting. > > >In 1963, Hamilton P. Traub, editor of Plant Life, > >wrote: "Poeppig (1833) proposed the genus > >Tristagma, with T. nivale (T. nivale Poepp. ex > >Endl. 1835) as the type. This generic name > >has priority over Ipheion Rafinesque (1837) > >with a type (I. uniflorum) [Lindl.] Raf.) which > >has to be transferred to Tristagma on > >phylogenetic grounds." See: > >Liliaceae Tristagma uniflorum (Lindl.) Traub > >in Plant Life, xix. 61 (1963). > >This means that there is no more Ipheion. > > Citing Traub as "definitive" carries a certain amount of risk and skepticism. > Traub is rather famous (notorious, or infamous is more like it) for being a > consummate splitter (even among splitters), as well as being self-motivated to > name as many species and taxonomic revisions to his claim as possible. As a > student of the genus Allium myself, I do know that Traub is responsible for > identifying quite a number of Mexican Allium, which still stand to this day. > But then again, I look towards consensus, and have heard sufficient consensus on > this group within Allium to carry forward (and judging from my own experience > growing 5 species out of 15-16 Mexican species with which to gauge)... yet > with other groups of plants, the status is much more muddied and much more > contentious. > > >This means that there is no more Ipheion. > >All the correctly "recognized" species in this > >genus are now Tristagma. > > Ah, but that's half the trick right there. What constitutes "all the > correctly recognized species in this genus [Ipheion] are now Tristagma" is an > undefined variable and therefore rather meaningless. I'm still waiting for a > definitive enumeration of the South American bulbous genera, which seem to freely > float between various genera like fruit flies hovering between various types of > rotting fruit. One cannot be as certain as has been proposed. > > Mark McDonough Pepperell, Massachusetts, United States > antennaria@aol.com "New England" USDA Zone 5 > ============================================== > >> web site under construction - http://www.plantbuzz.com/ < > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php