Thanks Tim for your reasonable response. On the topic of discussion in general, I would like to remind everyone that reasonable, respectful discussion is valuable. It allows people to share ideas, and we can all learn from each other’s different perspectives and knowledge. There is no topic in existence for which it is true to say that any single person knows everything there is to know about it. I like the PBS list because for the most part, reasonable and respectful discussion has been the norm here for the past few years during which I have followed the list. On the topic of ecological sustainability, there are many things which frequently go unmentioned. For instance, the ecological and social costs to developing nations of producing goods at competitive rates and prices for demanding first world markets, or the costs of shipping those products thousands of miles to reach those markets. There are very high ecological costs to manufacturing a huge number of products that we in rich developed countries take for granted (cars, appliances, electronics, materials for the home, furniture, clothing, paper products, etc.). I cannot nor would I try to claim that I have a made a set of superior choices to anyone else in this or any other group, but I do try to make responsible choices to the extent I see reasonable. That involves attempting to buy mostly local produce, buying organic products as much as I can afford to, happily paying more for things from distant countries if they have a “fair trade” or similar proclamation, putting in effort to recycle as many products as I can, trying to contribute as little as possible to companies with wantonly consumerist policies I don’t agree with, using as few harsh agricultural chemicals as I can get away with to keep my plants alive, etc. However, that doesn’t stop me from taking airline flights to distant places for fun, or eating meat, or bananas and mangos, etc. from thousands of miles away, or using products involving petroleum (e.g. nearly any kind of plastic), or going out to restaurants, or driving my car, or having dogs as pets, or sometimes *not* buying organic products, etc. I’m always interested in learning new information about the environmental impacts of things I might or do use, in case there might be an opportunity for me to make some kind of change for the better. So, I’m interested to know what the rest of you knowledgeable and diverse people know about things like glyphosate, and I like hearing about other people’s approaches to dealing with common problems we all deal with such as nasty weeds. But I’m interested in the truth, which I have come to accept is in most cases complicated, and I have to say that arguments of the form “you should believe me that X is [horrible/amazing] and if you don’t believe me then you’re just bad/immoral/confused/ignorant/part of the problem, etc.” are neither convincing nor helpful. Reasonable, respectful discussion involving verifiable information and logical arguments based on facts, is helpful. Furthermore, I don’t believe anyone in this list is in a position to claim unequivocal ecological superiority in terms of their life choices. I would be willing to admit I am wrong about this if anyone can honestly claim they consume only renewable, ecologically sustainable, local products sourced from people paid a living wage, who *also* consume such sustainable products sourced from people who meet all the same requirements, etc. all the way back up the supply chain. If you don’t fit those criteria, please keep in mind that: 1) nobody is perfect (including you) 2) just participating in modern society means you are also contributing to the decline of nature 3) if you want to make an actual impact on the world, it’s much more effective to address opportunities in your own life than it is to rant about other people not living up to your standards, and 4) if you want to convince other people to see your point of view, you need to treat them respectfully and be willing to listen to theirs as well. I hope that we can continue to have productive discussions about topics like the ecological trade offs of herbicide use, because being able to effectively share knowledge about these kinds of topics is a necessary step on the path to anything resembling real ecological sustainability. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.pacificbulbsociety.net http://lists.pacificbulbsociety.net/cgi-bin/…