Jim; Sounds like a great discussion in which I’m sure we’ll all learn something new. To begin, there seems to be as many definitions of species than there are taxonomists…see the most commonly cited definitions of a species below. All but #5 deal with interbreeding, which would seem to rule out triploid, sterile lycoris as species. 1- a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding 2- Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species. 3- Horticulture. pertaining to a plant that is a representative member of a species, one that is not a hybrid or variety: 4- In biology, a species (abbreviated sp., with the plural form species abbreviated spp.) is the basic unit of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms in which two individuals can produce fertile offspring, typically by sexual reproduction. 5- The definition of a species is a group of animals, plants or other living things that all share common characteristics and that are all classified as alike in some manner. 6- Ernst Mayr invented the biological species concept in 1942. A biological species is a group of individuals that can interbreed and produce fertile offspring to the exclusion of others. To determine boundaries of biological species, time-consuming mating experiments are necessary. Provided mating experiments are possible, a species defined by the biological species concept is reproducible and represents the smallest taxonomic and evolutionary unit. Biological species are therefore considered the optimal species definition To me, a species must be definable by at least one unique and significant trait, and be able to reproduce true from seed in population isolation. Obviously species move closer together and further apart. When they move closer together, they hybridize and often speciate over time. Once the speciation is “complete” and the new plant is stable, it reproduces “true” from seed. It seems that a sterile hybrid cannot, therefore, be considered a species, because it cannot reproduce. Of the primary interspecific hybrids, only L. x rosea is fertile, so if there are stable populations, this could qualify as a new species. So, what is your definition of a species and which sterile hybrids do you consider a species and why? Tony Avent Proprietor tony@jlbg.org<mailto:tony@jlbg.org> Juniper Level Botanic Garden<http://www.juniperlevelbotanicgarden.org/> and Plant Delights Nursery<http://www.plantdelights.com/> Ph 919.772.4794/fx 919.772.4752 9241 Sauls Road, Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA USDA Zone 7b/Winter 0-5 F/Summer 95-105F "Preserving, Studying, Propagating, and Sharing the World’s Flora” From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of James Waddick Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 3:22 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Lycoris misc - Found Dear Tony and all, I do not mean this to be argumentative, but you have a short sighted definition of species. There are plenty of species that are validly named under the regulations of the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature (ICBN). They are validy described, diagnosised, differentiated, published and accepted by the horticultural community. These include (not just in Lycoris), but a number of plant species that are of hybrid origin, diploid, triploid, tetraplaoid and other confirguations. You seem to be restricting your definitions to a strict classic scientific description of species - a population of similar individuals that are biologically isolated (i.e do not breed with ) other populations. Even restricting to this ‘pure’ definition, L. chinensis and L. longituba are not biologically isolated, but interbereed easily and have fertile offspring. The most recent review of the genus by Roh, Surita, Zhao and Suh , 2002 (" Identificationand Classification of the genus Lycoris using Molecular Markers” - http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~lycoris/…) [ this is a big slow download] accepts that there are 26 species “treated as authentic taxa”. Personally this may be a bit over accepting since it includes a number of ‘new Korean species’ which may just be range extensions of other better known species. I can’t see any justification for limiting the genus to your 7 fertile diploid species since the genus dates back almost 300 years (1821) and has included a large variety of names. I do doubt the validity of some of these names in the light of a modern understanding of molecular studies, but they cannot all be discounted out of hand. Hybrids can be handled as named, selected cultivars junder the rules of the Internat. Code for Cultivated Plants although they cannot retain their latinaized names which makes for some difficult situations especially for long cultivatied and widely grown species such as L. squamigera. I totally agree that there seems to be only 7 fertile diploid species, and that there are taxonomic errors over the years. The total number validly named species seems to be at least twice that number. Best Jim W. On Feb 26, 2017, at 7:30 PM, Tony Avent <tony@PLANTDELIGHTS.COM><mailto:tony@PLANTDELIGHTS.COM%3e> wrote: Hi Tony; Only time for a short reply now. There are only 7 species of lycoris....two with fall foliage and five with spring foliage. There is a trove of DNA that backs this up, and we have studied the 700+ lycoris clones of lycoris we grow in the field, and our analysis agrees. All other lycoris are hybrids. There are many crosses between spring x spring, fall x fall, and spring x fall foliage types. All of the F1's hybrids between spring x fall show the fall foliage trait to be dominant in the F1 generation. We have not been able to determine how many times a backcross onto a spring foliaged species would be required to bring out the spring foliage phenotypes in the offspring. For seed set you will want to use one of the species are the pod parent, or the single fertile hybrid group listed below. Spring foliaged species chinensis (fertile) longituba(fertile) sanguinea (fertile) shaanxiensis (fertile) (probably not in the US...all plants sold under this name are fall-flowering hybrids) sprengeri (fertile) Fall foliage species aurea (fertile) radiata (fertile, except for the triploid form) Chromosome numbers vary widely within each species, so each clone would need to tested for any meaningful data. For example, see the published chromosome counts for Lycoris aurea 2n=12 Inariyama 1953)(Bose 1958) 2n=13 (inariyama 1937)(Bose/Flory 1963) 2n=14 (Inariyama 1953)(Liu/Hsu 1989)(Kurita unpub)(Roh etal 2002) 2n=15 (Bose/Flory 1963)(Kurita 1987)(Boufford/Ohba 1998)(Roh etal 2002) 2n=16 (Liu/Hsu 1989)(Kurita unpub)(Roh etal 2002)(Shi etal 2006)(Wu etal 2007)(Zhao etal 2008)(Huang etal 2011) 2n=22 (Furuta 1989) Once you omit the duplicate published names for the hybrids , below are the names for the remaining published hybrids, although it may turn out that a few more from this list will be duplicates. There is only one fertile published hybrid, L. x rosea (sprengeri x radiata v. pumila) x albiflora (sterile) x caldwellii (sterile) x chejuensis (sterile) x cinnabarina (sterile) x elsiae (sterile) x flavescens var. flavescens (sterile) x flavescens var. uydoensis (sterile) x houdyshelii (sterile) x rosea (same as jacksoniana) (fertile) x rubroaurantiaca (sterile) x squamigera (same as elegans, incarnata) (sterile) x straminea (sterile) When we finish our analysis and data compilation, we'll be sure to publish it on-line. We hope this helps. Tony Avent Proprietor tony@plantdelights.com<mailto:tony@plantdelights.com> Juniper Level Botanic Garden and Plant Delights Nursery Ph 919.772.4794/fx 919.772.4752 9241 Sauls Road, Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA USDA Zone 7b/Winter 0-5 F/Summer 95-105F "Preserving, Studying, Propagating, and Sharing the World's Flora" Since 1988, Plant Delights Nursery is THE Source for unique, rare and native perennial plants. From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Tony Carter Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 2:00 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: [pbs] Lycoris misc - Found Jim and David, Thank you for all of this content. The Kurita et al <https://www.jstor.org/stable/41967120/><https://www.jstor.org/stable/41967120%3e/> is a fantastic resource. I have read through all of the previous discussions I've found on the subject and it has helped me a great deal but some of it (probably more than I realize) I do not yet understand. Of particular issue for me is the chromosomal relation to sterility versus fertility. I gather that in Lycoris, triploids are generally sterile or very close to it and that diploids are generally fertile although there are apparent, notable exceptions . I would like to be able to understand why at a basic level. With L. Straminea for example, is it because it has an odd number (2n = 19) or for some other reason? I have used Google to search things like 'basic plant genetics' and read a few articles but am having trouble finding a good primer on karyotypes beyond what Jim laid out in a past message. In a recent message Jim suggested larger plants and apricots or blues/purples as good hybridizing goals. It all interests me but the blues and purples do in particular. I'm in zone 8a and so am not very restricted by cold hardiness. What potential, available parents would be good candidates for this? Thank you, Tony Carter TX 75065 Zone 8a _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ ________________________________________ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ Dr. James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ ________________________________ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/