Very interesting discussion on fertilisers, its a very useful world where
the likes of Jim Shields cuts to the chase as I had totally forgotten some
of the terms being used in these posts. Pretty well all plants, whether
trees in my past career or every genus of alpine or temperate plants require
N. P. K.along with Trace minerals in minute quantities. Our soil here is
acidic, very acidic as its derived from glaciated granite debris, generally
around the pH 4.5 to 5.0 mark. In order to introduce humus as an aid to good
growth we use composted bark derived from mainly Pine + Spruce with a little
Birch + Oak but it tends to sequester, lock up, N. so adjustments are made
to compensate. Obviously readily available fertilisers most probably vary in
their presentation but in Scotland, Europe generally, the medium of choice
are slow release granules with varying content of N.P.K. plus trace
minerals. In addition these are sold with different rates of release, e.g .6
month, 9 or 18 months. Where we live the use of Bone Meal has its problems,
Dogs, Foxes. Martens just love to role in it or dig hoping to find THE BONE,
not very welcome habits so I would suggest some thought, at least we no
longer have Wolves or Bears to cope with.
Jim's advice recommending checking your soil pH is vital, so too is annual
and even seasonal precipitation. Soil type can have material effects on
rates of fertiliser leaching which needs to be taken account of. Getting any
soil tested for pH should be straight forward as every garden centre here
sells cheap kits to do just that.
Our additional problem in terms of soil fertiliser is the total lack of
available free Lime here in almost all of the Highlands, fortunately very
few species of Lilium require readily available Lime and this is provided on
a localised basis, where needed and always assuming I haven't forgotten. We
also use, for seedlings and young bulbs, a balanced soluble fertiliser as
salts in suspension when watering, however this stops under our conditions,
partly because at close to 58 degrees North our growing season is
comparatively short e.g with coastal Pacific USA + Canada and anything later
than the end of August, as a rule, stops in order to harden off the bulbs,
of whatever age, otherwise in frozen soil a lot of damage occurs including
total death despite free draining sandy and gravelly soil.
Jim's analogy with rules of taxonomy and chemistry is well made, the world
has moved on quite a bit including all measurements being metric. I think I
am correct in saying that the USA is now the only country in the world still
using imperial measurements in terms of volume, weights, heights, diameters,
distances, temperatures, etc. I have now quite forgotten both how to
calculate comparisons e.g. Centigrade v. Fahrenheit, its been so long ago,
not long after WW2 in fact, and like everyone else I don't even try anymore,
my dithering old brain can't cope nor my memory either. That said, other
than the US, I think the UK, is the only country left still mucking about in
yards and miles, causes our European visitors and tourists no end of bother,
quaint indeed. Our gallons for diesel and petrol are equal to five litres,
while I think, the US gallon is equal ? roughly to four litres. Some of the
chemicals refered to in these posts are simply not freely available to the
gardening + horticultural communities in Europe, what's more the prospect of
using some of those mentioned, knowing what they are and can do if
mishandled, frighten the bejisus out of me. Wood ash is fine for the roses
and fruit bushes, but for bulbs, hardly.
To conclude, one worrying aspect for me is that the new Lily Monograph
probably won't do very well in the USA as everything is cited in metric, Ho
Hum!
Happy Easter to one + all. May the frost leave our soil soon please, at c.
15 cms {6 inches) its a real pain as the days get longer. Iain
----- Original Message -----
From: <pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:35 PM
Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 122, Issue 48
> Send pbs mailing list submissions to
> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..."
>
>
> List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
> List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Fertilizer for Nerine (Gene Mirro)
> 2. plant nutrition references for bulbs (Gastil Gastil-Buhl)
> 3. Re: Fertilizer for Nerine (J.E. Shields)
> 4. Re: Fertilizer for Nerine (Jim McKenney)
> 5. Re: Fertilizer for Nerine (Jim McKenney)
> 6. Re: Fertilizer for Nerine (J.E. Shields)
> 7. Re: Fertilizer for Nerine (Gene Mirro)
> 8. Re: plant nutrition references for bulbs (David Pilling)
> 9. Re: Fertilizer for Nerine (David Ehrlich)
> 10. Re: Moraea 'Zoe' hybrids (Jadeboy48@aol.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 10:00:59 -0700
> From: "Gene Mirro" <mirrog@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Fertilizer for Nerine
> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4C9E16EF127F4A799E9FCACA33B4B39A@gmirro2PC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Bone meal has long been considered the traditional bulb fertilizer. My
> experience is that bulbs really like bone meal. But it is high in P and
> has almost no K. How do we know that K is a key bulb nutrient? Are there
> references?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 10:35:27 -0700
> From: Gastil Gastil-Buhl <gastil.buhl@gmail.com>
> Subject: [pbs] plant nutrition references for bulbs
> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <7F4FBECA-7524-42C1-82D6-0788D97CC1FE@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Using the word "bulbs" loosely here...
>
> Gene asks "How do we know that K is a key bulb nutrient? Are there
> references?"
>
> When I sent a soil sample for nutrient analysis to Spectrum Analytic, they
> offered to provide recommendations for fertilizer based on crop. I
> explained my "crops" were Aristea to Zephranthes and did not expect them
> to actually look up references. I was impressed at the research they did.
> Where possible they provided nutrient requirements to the genus level, and
> for some just to the family level. Of course my species allium are not
> going to need the same nutrients as commercial onions (where at least they
> distinguish between onions grown for big bulbs versus "green onions" grown
> for foliage). I was impressed they would do research for one backyard
> baggie of soil. I did warn them ahead of time that I am not a farmer and
> not a "real" customer.
>
> I grabbed a few screenshots from the reports in case this sort of
> information is of interest. The complication here is these recommendations
> are based on my backyard soil, not your potting mix. The only information
> useful here is the sort of nutrients there exist references for and the
> level of specificity.
> See for example:
> http://goo.gl/t88fB/
>
> If you want to try it with your own soil or potting mix I recall it cost
> around $60 for the tests I ordered.
>
> - Gastil
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 13:41:15 -0400
> From: "J.E. Shields" <jshields@indy.net>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Fertilizer for Nerine
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20130329132156.0374c5a8@pop.indy.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
> References:
>
> A. R. Rees, "The Growth of Bulbs" Academic Press (1972)
>
> A. de Hertogh and M. Le Nard, "The Physiology of Flower Bulbs" Elsevier
> (1993)
>
> Bulbs, like most plants, use Phosphate (P) in much smaller amounts than
> they use Nitrogen (N) and Potassium (K). Plants grown in soil need
> relatively little additional P in most cases. Plants grown in artificial
> media need continuous but still not large amounts of P in their
> fertilizer.
>
> Bone meal, depending on how it is processed, may contain small amounts of
> N
> and of K. N and K are both quite soluble, and whether in soil or in
> artificial media, both need to be continuously replenished as they are
> washed away. P forms insoluble complexes in soil with Calcium (Ca),
> Magnesium (Mg), Manganese (Mn), and Iron (Fe). Once applied to a flower
> bed, P remains bound in place, slowly being re-released for many
> years. Continuously adding more P to soil tends to tie up most of the Ca
> and all of the Fe and Mn. This is not good, and is a waste of
> increasingly
> hard to get Phosphate.
>
> I find it interesting that gardeners and even educated horticulturalists
> still use names like "muriate of potassium" or "sulfate of potash" which
> went out of use in chemistry in the late 19th century. Quaint.
>
> Wood ashes are a good source of Potassium (K), in the form of potassium
> carbonate (a.k.a. "potash") which is also very caustic. Use wood ashes
> very, very cautiously unless your soil is extremely acidic. Don't wash
> your hands in a strong solution of wood ashes unless you want to remove
> most of the skin. I wouldn't use wood ashes directly on any plant bed, not
> even at gun-point.
>
> Jim Shields
>
>
> At 10:00 AM 3/29/2013 -0700, you wrote:
>>Bone meal has long been considered the traditional bulb fertilizer. My
>>experience is that bulbs really like bone meal. But it is high in P and
>>has almost no K. How do we know that K is a key bulb nutrient? Are there
>>references?
>
> *************************************************
> Jim Shields USDA Zone 5
> P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/
> Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA
> Lat. 40? 02.8' N, Long. 086? 06.6' W
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:46:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jim McKenney <jamesamckenney@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Fertilizer for Nerine
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <1364582786.56833.YahooMailNeo@web84505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Jim Shields wrote: "?I find it interesting that gardeners and even
> educated horticulturalists?still use names like "muriate of potassium" or
> "sulfate of potash" which?
> went out of use in chemistry in the late 19th century.? Quaint."
>
> Jim, can you expand on this please??
>
> Let's take the term muriate of potash for starters, since that's what I
> used my post. Is muriate of potash the same as muriate of potassium? If
> both of these terms are outdated, what do you suggest as alternatives??
>
> With regard to muriate of potash, that term is widespread in the
> horticultural literature (maybe what you would call the outdated
> horticultural literature?). Older books warn against using muriate of
> potash with potatoes or roses. I've noticed that some commercial
> formulations intended for use with roses do not use muriate of potash and
> instead use another potassium source, even when formulations from the same
> manufacturer use muriate of potash in other of their products. . If
> muriate of potash is an outdated term, what term should we be using??
>
> Is your objection to the term sulfate of potash the form of the term? In
> other words, do you prefer potassium sulfate (and does it mean the same
> thing?).
>
>
> Jim McKenney
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:49:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jim McKenney <jamesamckenney@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Fertilizer for Nerine
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <1364582983.96027.YahooMailNeo@web84506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Gene asked: "? How do we know that K is a key bulb nutrient?? Are there
> references???"
>
> There is an empirical observation to back this up: the sometimes
> astonishing bloom observed s year or two after otherwise devastating fires
> in wooded areas.?
>
> Jim McKenney
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:12:28 -0400
> From: "J.E. Shields" <jshields@indy.net>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Fertilizer for Nerine
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20130329145152.0374c3a0@pop.indy.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
> I know Jim McK. likes language and its history. Muriate of potash and
> sulphate of potash are historical or alchemical terms.
>
> The modern scientific names for these compounds are potassium chloride for
> "muriate of potash," and potassium sulfate for "sulphate of potash." The
> correct names for chemical compounds are defined by the International
> Union
> for Pure and Applied Chemistry. Just as plant names and animal names are
> regulated by international scientific organizations in those fields, so
> are
> chemical names.
>
> If there is a difference between "sulphate of potash" and potassium
> sulfate, I suppose it might be in purity and degree of characterization,
> but there is probably no way of knowing.
>
> Chloride is toxic to plants at higher levels, so it's never a good idea to
> use chloride salts in fertilizers. It therefore helps to know if there is
> chloride in your fertilizer, which isn't obvious if we talk about
> "muriates."
>
> Hearing "muriate of potash" and "sulphate of potash" strikes my ears the
> same way hearing "ain't" and "hain't" does now, too. They are all
> soooooo
> 19th century. Which is alright if you'd rather be living in the 19th
> century, I guess. I'm just a chemist of the 20th and 21st centuries.
>
> If you're having a scientific discussion, there is no question which
> terminology is correct. If you're having a literary discussion, that's a
> different matter.
>
> Regards,
> Jim Shields
>
>
> At 11:46 AM 3/29/2013 -0700, you wrote:
>>Jim Shields wrote: " I find it interesting that gardeners and even
>>educated horticulturalists still use names like "muriate of potassium" or
>>"sulfate of potash" which
>>went out of use in chemistry in the late 19th century. Quaint."
>>
>>Jim, can you expand on this please?
>>
>>Let's take the term muriate of potash for starters, since that's what I
>>used my post. Is muriate of potash the same as muriate of potassium? If
>>both of these terms are outdated, what do you suggest as alternatives?
>>
>>With regard to muriate of potash, that term is widespread in the
>>horticultural literature (maybe what you would call the outdated
>>horticultural literature?). Older books warn against using muriate of
>>potash with potatoes or roses. I've noticed that some commercial
>>formulations intended for use with roses do not use muriate of potash and
>>instead use another potassium source, even when formulations from the same
>>manufacturer use muriate of potash in other of their products. . If
>>muriate of potash is an outdated term, what term should we be using?
>>
>>Is your objection to the term sulfate of potash the form of the term? In
>>other words, do you prefer potassium sulfate (and does it mean the same
>>thing?).
>>
>>
>>Jim McKenney
>>_______________________________________________
>>pbs mailing list
>>pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
>>http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php
>>http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/
>
> *************************************************
> Jim Shields USDA Zone 5
> P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/
> Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA
> Lat. 40? 02.8' N, Long. 086? 06.6' W
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:28:34 -0700
> From: "Gene Mirro" <mirrog@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Fertilizer for Nerine
> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <856FD15A9B884DB7918731BB948493A3@gmirro2PC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I?ve been applying wood ashes directly to garden beds in our very rainy
> Spring, always when rain is predicted. It seems to work fine and not
> cause any problems. I don?t think I would apply ashes in dry weather with
> fully emerged foliage.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 21:16:00 +0000
> From: David Pilling <pbs@pilling.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] plant nutrition references for bulbs
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <Er4+7FHQSgVRFwVw@pilling.demon.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed
>
> Hi,
>
> In message <7F4FBECA-7524-42C1-82D6-0788D97CC1FE@gmail.com>, Gastil
> Gastil-Buhl <gastil.buhl@gmail.com> writes
>>I grabbed a few screenshots from the reports in case this sort of
>>information is of interest. The complication here is these
>>recommendations are based on
>>http://goo.gl/t88fB/
>
> That's in Google Docs.
>
> "View" towards the top left under
> "Plant_Nutrition_bulbs_Spectrum_Analytic" lets you zoom them up big
> enough to read. Or you can use "File" (same place) and then "Download
> As" to get a PDF to keep (or zoom).
>
>
> --
> David Pilling
> email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk
> web: http://www.davidpilling.net/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 14:49:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Ehrlich <idavide@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Fertilizer for Nerine
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <1364593775.40006.YahooMailRC@web181506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Not even most chemists these days?are aware that Hydrochloric acid was
> once
> called Muriatic acid -- both my house guest and I have degrees in
> chemistry, and
> neither of us knew what Muriatic acid was: we had to look it up in
> Wikipedia.?
> Muriate of Potash is none other than Potassium chloride -- a sometime
> table salt
> substitute when used in small quantities.
>
> David E.
>
> ________________________________
> From: J.E. Shields <jshields@indy.net>
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Fri, March 29, 2013 10:41:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Fertilizer for Nerine
>
> References:
>
> A. R. Rees, "The Growth of Bulbs"? Academic Press (1972)
>
> A. de Hertogh and M. Le Nard, "The Physiology of Flower Bulbs"? Elsevier
> (1993)
>
> Bulbs, like most plants, use Phosphate (P) in much smaller amounts than
> they use Nitrogen (N) and Potassium (K).? Plants grown in soil need
> relatively little additional P in most cases.? Plants grown in artificial
> media need continuous but still not large amounts of P in their
> fertilizer.
>
> Bone meal, depending on how it is processed, may contain small amounts of
> N
> and of K.? N and K are both quite soluble, and whether in soil or in
> artificial media, both need to be continuously replenished as they are
> washed away.? P forms insoluble complexes in soil with Calcium (Ca),
> Magnesium (Mg), Manganese (Mn), and Iron (Fe).? Once applied to a flower
> bed, P remains bound in place, slowly being re-released for many
> years.? Continuously adding more P to soil tends to tie up most of the Ca
> and all of the Fe and Mn.? This is not good, and is a waste of
> increasingly
> hard to get Phosphate.
>
> I find it interesting that gardeners and even educated horticulturalists
> still use names like "muriate of potassium" or "sulfate of potash" which
> went out of use in chemistry in the late 19th century.? Quaint.
>
> Wood ashes are a good source of Potassium (K), in the form of potassium
> carbonate (a.k.a. "potash") which is also very caustic.? Use wood ashes
> very, very cautiously unless your soil is extremely acidic.? Don't wash
> your hands in a strong solution of wood ashes unless you want to remove
> most of the skin. I wouldn't use wood ashes directly on any plant bed, not
> even at gun-point.
>
> Jim Shields
>
>
> At 10:00 AM 3/29/2013 -0700, you wrote:
>>Bone meal has long been considered the traditional bulb fertilizer.? My
>>experience is that bulbs really like bone meal.? But it is high in P and
>>has almost no K.? How do we know that K is a key bulb nutrient?? Are there
>>references?
>
> *************************************************
> Jim Shields? ? ? ? ? ? USDA Zone 5
> P.O. Box 92? ? ? ? ? ? ? WWW:? ? http://www.shieldsgardens.com/
> Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA
> Lat. 40? 02.8' N, Long. 086? 06.6' W
>
> _______________________________________________
> pbs mailing list
> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php
> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 19:35:34 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Jadeboy48@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Moraea 'Zoe' hybrids
> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <200d.4097f4cf.3e877f46@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Dear Mary-Sue, How does one find someone willing to part with a bulb of
> Moraea " Zoe"/ It is quite lovely and anyone willing to sell this or any
> other jewel Moraeas can contact me. I have been looking around for a M
> pritzeliana too. As I am very disabled I cannot travel to pick up plants
> but I do
> have things shipped to me from around the world with never any
> problems.From
> your pictures you certainly grow some lovely plants! Thanks -Russ Hintz at
> jadeboy48@aol.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> pbs mailing list
> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php
>
>
> End of pbs Digest, Vol 122, Issue 48
> ************************************