Nhu or Dylan: could one elaborate on the term 'spathe valve". Thanks, Arnold New Jersey On 10/30/12, Hannon wrote: Nhu, I agree that the spathe valve thickness character can be difficult and seems subjective without direct experience of other species. Using relative character states in this manner is not a very helpful approach for those who do not know these plants well. Snijman does not always give helpful contrasting notes regarding other taxa that might be confused with the plant under discussion-- for the scientist working on a given group that would be easy to do, whereas most readers could not make such distinctions without much effort. I've grown both H. pubescens ssp. pubescens and H. dasyphyllus for over ten years and it seems the prostrate leaves of H. pubescens differ from the upright-leaved H. dasyphyllus. Do we know that the leaves of Antigoni's plant remain erect? Aside from what we know of its morphology it seems more likely that this mystery plant is H. pubescens ssp. pubscens rather than H. dasyphyllus simply because the latter is so rare by comparison. It would be a foolish nursery indeed that sent out H. dasyphyllus in place of H. barkerae! Dylan