Robin I feel your frustration. In fact, what you describe as pigheadedness is only the tip of a large iceberg in government regulations. We may all agree that some control over importation is important but the rules continue to get more complicated to the point where it is almost impossible to comply. Botanical Gardens generally have more trouble than individuals because we must conform strictly and are heavily scrutinized. An individual can often receive something in the mail while we would have to go thru complicated procedures. We must proceed every international seed request with a careful study of whether the species can be legally imported. If some foreign institution sends us something that is restricted or prohibited, we are fined even if we did not order it and had no idea it was being sent. I think part of the problem is bureaucracy which finds it easier to create and adhere to strict rules rather than dealing with indiividual situations. These are just a few of the reasons we are having increasing difficultly in building our collection with provenance and why we get so little extra material that we might be able to share. All part of playing by the rules. Paul Paul Licht, Director Univ. California Botanical Garden 200 Centennial Drive Berkeley, CA 94720 (510)-643-8999 http://botanicalgarden.berkeley.edu/ On 12/26/2011 1:42 PM, Robin Hansen wrote: > I feel compelled to answer a concern expressed by Michael re: Lilium occidentale as this one I do know something about. > > This lily requires open areas on forest edges and is suffering from encroachment of vegetation as part of a natural progression of plants. (I've seen this situation in a particular are along the south coast of Oregon.) Those of us who are frustrated with such situations as that with L. occidentale and others where we can't sell, propagate, buy, etc. are quietly propagating such plants and passing them around. > > These plants (I'm speaking of rare and protected species generally.) have been handed off to us as seed, etc. from sources in existence before a particular plant became restricted. So, no, provenance is murky, but yes, the plants will live on somehow, some way. > > It is particularly pitiful that we need to do this. I understand the need for strict provenance for research etc. but we are losing so much due to generally legalistic pigheadedness that I simply cannot condone behind-the-barn attempts to perpetuate a rare species provided due care is taken. > > Robin Hansen > Hansen Nursery > PO Box 1228 > North Bend, OR 97459, USA > (541) 759-3539 > robin@hansennursery.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Homick > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 12:43 PM > Subject: [pbs] Conservation through Propagation was Provenance Data forcollection material? > > > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Paul Licht<plicht@berkeley.edu> wrote: > > > If you have valuable plants with provenance that you are willing to > > share, we would love to work with you. > > Paul > > > > > This seems like a one way offer for the plant material to move. > > Is the reciprocal phrase also true..... > .....If We have valuable plants with provenance that you are willing to > grow, we would love to work with you. > ..... Probably not. > I do understand restrictions imposed on Botanical Gardens that make it > impossible for them to disseminate non native material without compensation > being remitted to country of origin, but it makes it frustrating when they > have rare plants and it is only ever available to other researchers and non > private Botanical Gardens that they classify as worthy. > > I also understand how plant material grown from seed to flowering and then > seed again in a garden whether mine or a botanical garden has started the > process of selection away from its natural environmental conditions. Only > those "tolerant" of my growing conditions will produce the next generation, > others die off. But even so the plant genetics is not lost totally as it > would be if left to fade away over the next 50 years in its natural > settings with no intervention of cloning existing material and making it > publicly available. > > For example the latest government report on Lilium occidentale gives it > about 35-50 years remaining in its natural habitat, but laws make it > illegal to grow, propagate or disseminate any plants, seeds, tissue > cultures etc. From what I have heard, there isn't even any effort to > pollinate isolated plants in a locality with each other to aid seed > development. > > It seems to me more could be done in a pro active mode rather that monitor > populations from year to year and report on the steady decline of the > population until extinct. > > I understand I am talking about two different things above with Botanical > Gardens as one and natural plant population decline a second. But Botanical > Gardens could be the intermediary between government restrictions on native > population collecting and commercial growers, collectors and plant > societies making the material available. This would take collecting > pressure off native plant areas. For example Orchids that were selling for > $5000 each years ago now are available for $5-10, Similarly for plants like > Nepenthes rajah, 20 years ago priceless, today medium sized plants for less > that $20-30. > > Michael > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ > Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3943 - Release Date: 10/07/11 > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ >