I hear a desire for information >> here from some participants in this forum. Shall it be addressed? and How? >> Outsource these folks to a college level course? A high school level >> course? >> >>> Dear Friends, >>> Although I have vaguely followed the discussion, there is an >>> air of blind leading blind. >>> >>> I don't even know where to start here, but do read something >>> relatively factual instead of making guesses and going off on >>> tangents. >>> Is there confusion here? Yes there is. Astonishing as it may seem, botanists do not all think the same thing. There are "lumpers" and there are "splitters", and their opinions are very different, given the same set of facts. Some botanists believe that a "hybrid" is defined as any cross between two plants of different genetic characteristics. This might be considered the "splitter" definition of a hybrid. It brings up the interesting situation of many plants which must cross with a different plant to produce seed. Consider the "English" holly, Ilex aquifolium. Some plants are functionally female, and bear berries. Others are functionally male, produce pollen but no berries. By the "splitter" definition of a hybrid, all seed grown members of the species Ilex aquifolium, are a hybrid, even though they are pure species Ilex aquifolium. The list of examples could be extended greatly, because in fact many or most species of plants are more fertile if "outcrossed" to some other plant of the same species. There are numerous ways the "outcrossing" can be achieved, not only having male and female plants, but having pollen produced before the stigma is receptive, or the stigma being taller than the anthers, etc. To me, this "splitter" definition of a hybrid is nonsensical, as most plants under this definiton are both a species and a hybrid. To me, they should be one or the other, not both. Well, I'm not a botanist. Confusion exists, and I've seen plants being exhibited in shows, which were disqualified as the exhibit in question had been grown from seed by the exhibitor, who had hand pollenated the mother plant and then protected the cross to prevent cross pollenation. However, the judge knew that the species being exhibited was self incompatible, so "it had to be a hybrid". How the judge thought the species had survived in it's native habitat without being cross pollenated for many centuries, I leave for you to figure out. The exhibitor, naturally, was furious, and to the best of my knowledge never again bothered to show flowers to that group. Who do you think lost the most by the actions/opinions of this judge? Are there factual differences between botanical "lumpers" and "splitters"? Not necessarily, but there are different opinions between them, and even greater differences between the way botanists and the general public understands certain terms, and confusion can only be reduced if we talk about what the differences are. Ken