>I find Jim Waddick's comments somewhat at odds with the spirit of >this list, and believe there is as much chance of learning something >here as there is in college classes, where twitter apparently rules. Dear Friends, I fully apologize as I do not want to disparage any informed communication. This list excels at a high level of commentary. I am however, offended by comments based on neither experience or facts. There are authorities easily available on the topic under discussion. Members of this forum would benefit from reading international rules on the topics of hybrids and species. A discussion of rules as it applies to bulbs (!) would be on topic. I am irritated when topics go astray and headings do not change. Perhaps someone needs to define terms before asking our newer members to reply to this question, especially in regard to a somewhat esoteric vocabulary, such as - "And does anyone know of a truly cleistogamous geophyte*? " There are a number of on-line dictionaries, but Oxford University Press (Dictionary of Botany) is normally a good on. Unfortunately 'Cleistogamy' is not included. Another dictionary in hand (Facts on File : Dictionary of Botany" ) defines: Cleistogamy: The production of flowers that do not open to expose the reproductive organs, so preventing cross pollination. as opposed to Apomixis Asexual reproduction in plants without fertilization or meiosis. Both topics are quite different and as they relate to bulbs are worthy of discussion. Finally, I can't recall such a situation in bulbous plants off hand, but I haven't really thought about much. Hardly worth a reply. With apologies and thanks Jim W. * As an aside, we all use the term"geophyte' to mean 'bulbous' (in the largest sense) plant, but the name actually means "earth - plant' as opposed to "epiphyte" for plants that grow on other plants, or "lithophyte" for plants that grow on rocks, etc. So "geophyte' actually refers to any plant that grows on/in the earth from Apples to Zinnia, but not especially centering on plants with enlarged underground growth. C'est La Vie. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F +