Folks, I am very grateful for all the discussion of epigeal and hypogeal. After Jim McK.'s elaboration of the types of germination in Lilium, I despair of finding a concise and clear definition! Still, this has been an enlightening and very useful experience. The variety of Nature is testing the limits of our vocabularies. John Gyer may not win any prizes for the aesthetics of his coined term "skotomorphogenic" but I still feel he made a useful contribution to our understanding. Please continue! I'm learning a great deal that is new to me. Jim Shields in Westfield, Indiana USA where there is a little snow on the ground and a real chill in the air at 9°F ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA