Tony - the origins of 'Macha Mocha' weren't quite clear to me from your post yesterday. Was the wild parent plant an obvious hybrid (i.e. F1) such that 'Macha Mocha' and its unreleased sib seedling are F2? Did its flowering at YD in 2003 result in any seed being set? John Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP