Howdy, I agree with Jim. Just from the information shown by the photo they both look like old dutch hybrids. The first one is very similar to plants in many gardens in Sydney. The second one looks very similar to a plant I grow. I call it 'Sydney' but I've also seen a picture of a plant called 'Toronto' which also bears a striking resemblence. And I suspect the actual cross is far older than both these names. Rgds, David. Central Coast, NSW, Australia --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.