Any Point in Planting Bulbs Sideways

[Judy Glattstein]

Once again I have come across the advice to plant Fritillaria imperialis sideways. Yes, there is a large-ish hollow where the previous season's stalk has shriveled away. BUT it seems to me that roots pull down,  shoots stretch up - and over time the bulb will likely correct its alignment.

Better to plant with suitable drainage. Or perhaps lay a summer cover over the area.

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions or advice?

[PaulSiskind]

My understanding is that the reason it's recommended to plant F. imperialis sideways is that the hole hole left from the stem collects water during the summer, which can cause the bulb to rot.  So, it's not an issue of general drainage; the issue is that you want to prevent water from collecting in the hole.  Presumably, the hole doesn't cause the same problems where the plant grows natively (i.e. the Middle East) because their summer season is drier than our is here in North America. 

I've never read anything about if covering the area during summer might be effective.  I imagine you'd need a pretty big cover to prevent water from seeping over towards the bulb.

[Judy Glattstein]

My Fritillaria imperialis were planted sometime around 2006 here in New Jersey. I did not plant them sideways. I have heavy soil.


They are perhaps not flowering as well as they did the first year but do flower every year.

They start coming up in March. Sometimes they get snowed on, lay over, straighten up when temperatures moderate. 

This has been a rather dry summer. It will be interesting to see what happens next year.

[David Pilling]

Quoting the PBS wiki:

https://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/AsianFritillariaTwo#imperialis

Some people say bulbs should be planted on their side, because of the large hole in them which may accumulate water. Others retort that the hole goes all the way through the bulb and so drains. Photos 1-4 are of commercially supplied bulbs of 'Garland Star' and show the hole, the bottom of the bulb and water being retained; the coin is around an inch in diameter. At first sight this disproves the idea of a hole all the way through the bulb. However often bulbs are sold with part of the old stem in place blocking the hole. Photo 5 from Laurence Hill shows the hole in a bulb of 'Lutea'. Since Fritillaria bulbs replace themselves every year, their original orientation in the ground will be lost anyway.


It is hard to beleive Frits produce new bulbs every year, I can't find it at the moment, but I planted some bulbs with a stick through the hole, excavating them next year, the stick was outside the current hole.

First time I bought some Imperialis, they had rotted before I got them home. Wonderful flowers.

I did not plant them sideways.

[Judy Glattstein]

I knew someone who planted all his tulip bulbs upside down, thinking that roots emerged from the pointed portion of the bulbs. They all did flower the following spring, somewhat later than expected. Shoots up / roots down. Geotropism. Definition: "the growth of the parts of plants with respect to the force of gravity. The upward growth of plant shoots is an instance of negative geotropism ; the downward growth of roots is positive geotropism."

My F. imperialis have, over time, made offsets. And Lysenkoism aside, I assume the offsets have appropriate vertical orientation of shoots and roots.

Catalogs - and books - persist in the "plant them sideways" nonsensical advice.

Corms replace themselves annually. True bulbs add internal scales while outermost scales wither. But do not, as far as I know, replace entire storage unit.

Good thing plants have a better idea of what they are doing than what we assume they should do.

[David Pilling]

True bulbs add internal scales while outermost scales wither. But do not, as far as I know, replace entire storage unit.

I found my photo here:

https://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/AsianFritillariaThree#persica

"Two things about Fritillaria bulbs which can be difficult to believe are that they have a hole through them, and a new bulb forms each year to replace the old one. Photo 3 shows development in Autumn, with a new bulb forming around the shoot; the green stick has been inserted through the hole in the original bulb. Photos 4 and 5 show flowers in Spring."

[janemcgary]

I don't understand this statement, which generalizes an observation of one species (or its section) to a whole genus. I have grown many species of Fritillaria for almost 40 years now, and I lift and replant or repot the bulbs in late summer -- not on their sides. I grow them from seed. The bulb  grows from a tiny first-year seedling to its eventual mature size over several years. Small frit bulbs will indeed reorient themselves during growth; you can sow the rice grains freely. Different sections of the genus have bulbs of different forms, some more solid-looking, others with "rice grain" offsets loosely attached to the parent bulb, and some, like the Imperiales section, with two big scales. I'm tempted to uncover a F. imperialis bulb right now, replace the soil with a removable layer and observe what happens to it through the growing season. One method of propagating this type of fritillaria is to cut the bulb in half horizontally, replant it in a sterile medium, and wait until it produces offsets around the cut. (I think most commercial ones are now tissue-cultured.) Perhaps the structures described as "a new bulb forming around the shoot" are the precursors of stem leaves, bracts, or other structures that may develop and remain underground.

[David Pilling]

I don't understand this statement, which generalizes an observation of one species (or its section) to a whole genus.

Citation needed. At the time I wrote the above I was under the influence of Mr. http://www.fritillariaicones.com/ and he assured me all frits formed replacement bulbs every year. There is a paper on that site:
http://www.fritillariaicones.com/info/Baranova_Hasson_Hill_2008.pdf
which describes the process.

Now you mention it, I would be more comfortable with "many" Fritillaria bulbs. There'll surely be some for which the general rule does not apply. Wouldn't it be interesting to know which ones.

I'm tempted to uncover a F. imperialis bulb right now, replace the soil with a removable layer and observe what happens to it through the growing season.

Go for it - science is about experiments challenging theories.



Ian Young states in his bulb log:

"Unlike true bulbs such as Narcissus which just get bigger each year, Fritillaria bulbs are completely replaced annually. As the stem grows this entire bulb will slowly shrink away as its resources are either used up or passed on to the new bulb that will form at the base of the flower stem as the flowers fade."

https://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/190706/log.html#:~:text=Unlike%20true%20bulbs%20such%20as,stem%20as%20the%20flowers%20fade.

[janemcgary]

I will arrange a way to observe the progress of bulbs of F. imperialis and of F. crassifolia, which are in two different sections. I will measure their diameter periodically. However, I can't see how this "annual" characteristic could apply to Section Liliorrhiza, which forms rice-grain offsets that are definitely not annually renewed; they remain loosely attached on the parent bulb year to year until disturbed. I'm familiar with the website Fritillariae Icones, which offers photos of plants in flower, removed from the soil so the bulb and roots are exposed. Also, I will ask someone who knows a lot more than I do,.

[Uli]

Wasn't the original question about planting F. imperialis bulbs sideways because of the hole in the bulb accumulating water? Now I read that the hole goes right through the bulb. It is a long time ago I had an imperialis bulb in hand and I don't remember if the hole goes right through or not. If it does, the point of planting sideways is pointless. It would be unnecessary geophyte gymnastics.

[David Pilling]

I don't remember if the hole goes right through or not.

As I said in the quoted text:

"often bulbs are sold with part of the old stem in place blocking the hole."

Remove the old stem before planting might be equivalent advice to planting sideways, but you'd still be left with the problem of what happens the next year, new bulb, new blocked hole.

[janemcgary]

I applied my actual area of expertise (language, not horticulture) to this discussion and I think I've figured out the disconnect between David Pilling's view and mine. It lies in the understanding of the word "renewed." It seems reasonable that a bulb might diminish somewhat as its stored nutrients contribute to the growth of annual roots, leaves, and stems, and that those roots, etc., would accumulate and transfer nutrients to the bulb as the plant prepares for dormancy: it is "renewed." It would not, however, necessarily be replaced by an entirely "new" bulb, as the scale-like appearance of the structures surrounding the stem shoot in the wiki photo may have suggested. This makes my proposed experiment easier: I will paint spots on a F. imperialis bulb this fall, and look at it next summer to check to see if the paint is still in place. Finally, I don't think there is any necessity to remove an old stem from a bulb, which could expose bulb tissue to invasion by fungi, etc. My frits of the Imperiales section remain in the soil for several years, and some F. raddeana are more than 30 years old.

[David Pilling]

I will paint spots on a F. imperialis bulb this fall, and look at it next summer to check to see if the paint is still in place

Hmm. I've always wondered about the tunics on things like Tulips, do they grow afresh each year. I'd imagine paint could degrade, or the surface of the bulb could be replaced, but it would be an interesting experiment.

There's the Ship of Theseus (modern, a broom that has lasted 25 years and has had six new heads and five new handles). If one injected dye or radioactivity or a piece of metal into the bulb would it remain and if it didn't would that prove anything.

I'd suggest a loop of string through the hole, new hole, new bulb.

YouTube gold would be a crystal clear growing medium where we could observe what goes on.

There are bulbs where replacements are grown every year - crocus, pleione - why no argument, because one can find the old bulbs. (Corms and pseudobulbs).

some F. raddeana are more than 30 years old

Well done. Of all my frits not a one remains.

[PaulSiskind]

"Corms replace themselves annually. True bulbs add internal scales while outermost scales wither. But do not, as far as I know, replace entire storage unit."

"Hmm.  I've always wondered about the tunics on things like Tulips, do they grow afresh each year."

According to websites from two Dutch bulb producers (see below), Tulips (which are true bulbs, not corms) totally deplete the mother bulb when they flower and grow new daughter bulbs around the base of the mother bulb.  Judging from the pictures (and from when I've accidentally dug up bulbs), the new daughter bulbs start growing without a tunic, but then presumably develop their own new tunic at some point.

https://vdqbulbs.com.au/pages/growing-cycle-of-tulips
https://www.tulips.com/bulbs_life_of

[David Pilling]

On behalf of Judy Glattstein

Attached are two pictures of  F. imperialis. One from April 2006 and the other from April 2024 I have not added any new bulbs. So they've been here for 18 years. I'm happy. Guess they must be happy too.

Judy