Unknown Ledebouria

[AbeelT]

Hello everyone,

I've been collecting Ledebouria for several years now, and I have consulted the valuable info on this genus on the PBS website many times. I recently came across these two plants that I cannot identify. I would appreciate your insights on this.

Earlier this month I found these plants at a cactus and succulent fair. They were labeled as "Ledebouria aff. revoluta". I have never seen Ledebouria like these, and I don't seem to find any similar looking plants online. The seller acquired two of these plants many years ago in Germany. The plants do not produce offsets/new bulbs, so they have to be propagated from seeds. 

Does anyone have any idea what species/variety this is?

Thanks in advance!

Thomas

[CG100]

The hassle with a lot of the genus is that they can vary quite a bit in appearance, especially if the species is native to a (very) large area. Also, many are wrongly identified in cultivation/trade.

I have 3 clones of L. revoluta imported from RSA (different nurseries). They vary quite a bit in the base colour of the leaves - from grey-green to deep green, and the depth of colour of the spots - from dark brown to pale, almost insignificant.

None look like your plant.
You plant is unusual in that the spotting appears to be the same form as in L. socialis - the spots are formed where there are breaks in the "silvery" surface to the leaf, revealing green spots, rather than being darker (brown) spots within the leaf (if that makes sense).

It MIGHT be a form of marginata - the "test" for the species is to try to tear a leaf, green or dry. It should be full of tough fibres that make tearing it difficult. (I have plants with this label from a very reputable SA nursery, but the leaves are virtually spotless and very pale grey-green, and not twisted. I have never torn a leaf...... Actually they are rather spectacular plants even with no flowers.)

If you search online there are several papers about Ledebouria published over the past 20 years, probably the most recent in Herbertia in 2008.

Searching online is fraught with difficulties as the only REALLY trustworthy sources are academic, botanical websites, and PBS.

I like Ledebouria too.................. I have 20+ different names (mostly species but also very distinct forms), and around another 10 that are different enough to be kept even when sharing a name on the label. L. socialis takes some beating..............if only it wasn't so easy to produce a great plant.........................
If their flowers were scented, or at least double the size, everyone would be collecting them.

[Too Many Plants!]

The hassle with a lot of the genus is that they can vary quite a bit in appearance, especially if the species is native to a (very) large area. Also, many are wrongly identified in cultivation/trade.

I have 3 clones of L. revoluta imported from RSA (different nurseries). They vary quite a bit in the base colour of the leaves - from grey-green to deep green, and the depth of colour of the spots - from dark brown to pale, almost insignificant.

None look like your plant.
You plant is unusual in that the spotting appears to be the same form as in L. socialis - the spots are formed where there are breaks in the "silvery" surface to the leaf, revealing green spots, rather than being darker (brown) spots within the leaf (if that makes sense).

It MIGHT be a form of marginata - the "test" for the species is to try to tear a leaf, green or dry. It should be full of tough fibres that make tearing it difficult. (I have plants with this label from a very reputable SA nursery, but the leaves are virtually spotless and very pale grey-green, and not twisted. I have never torn a leaf...... Actually they are rather spectacular plants even with no flowers.)

If you search online there are several papers about Ledebouria published over the past 20 years, probably the most recent in Herbertia in 2008.

Searching online is fraught with difficulties as the only REALLY trustworthy sources are academic, botanical websites, and PBS.

I like Ledebouria too.................. I have 20+ different names (mostly species but also very distinct forms), and around another 10 that are different enough to be kept even when sharing a name on the label. L. socialis takes some beating..............if only it wasn't so easy to produce a great plant.........................
If their flowers were scented, or at least double the size, everyone would be collecting them.

Did I miss it..?..you didn't mention growing conditions, which can have dramatic affects on how plants look! I would speculate based on how it looks, AlbeeIts' Ledebouria could be being grown in shade, or part shade, or very mild conditions...

[Too Many Plants!]

Unlike my L Revoluta growing in ground in hot 🌡� full cranking sun ☀️ 100°F+ 38C+ conditions...

[CG100]

Growing conditions do not affect or change the basic colouration/pattern of the plant.

Same base colour. Same distribution of marking, contrast between basic colour and markings etc.

Your plant looks no different to one clone grown here in a pot in a greenhouse. Is it the same clone?? Who knows?

The major factor in the OP is that the spots on the leaves are not dark/brown spots; they are "gaps" in the silvery surface - they are green.

Maybe you missed that? A fundemental factor., mentioned above

Best guess here - a form of marginata and very unlikely to be revoluta which has brown spots on he leaves, even if very feint

There are more than 60 species known in sub-saharan Africa and many are very similar, and many vary a great deal.

See S Venter, "SYNOPSIS OF THE GENUS LEDEBOURIA ROTH (HYACINTHACEAE) IN  SOUTH AFRICA", Herbertia 2008.

[Too Many Plants!]

Growing conditions do not affect or change the basic colouration/pattern of the plant.

Same base colour. Same distribution of marking, contrast between basic colour and markings etc.

Your plant looks no different to one clone grown here in a pot in a greenhouse. Is it the same clone?? Who knows?

The major factor in the OP is that the spots on the leaves are not dark/brown spots; they are "gaps" in the silvery surface - they are green.

Maybe you missed that? A fundemental factor., mentioned above

Best guess here - a form of marginata and very unlikely to be revoluta which has brown spots on he leaves, even if very feint

There are more than 60 species known in sub-saharan Africa and many are very similar, and many vary a great deal.

See S Venter, "SYNOPSIS OF THE GENUS LEDEBOURIA ROTH (HYACINTHACEAE) IN  SOUTH AFRICA", Herbertia 2008.

Well, I'm no botanist/expert...but I don't think that comment holds water. Growing conditions ABSOLUTELY make a difference!

[CG100]

@Too Many Plants!

They absolutely do - agreed.

Maybe read what I actually wrote?

The brown spots on L. revoluta leaves will very highly likely be due to cells producing one or more carotenoids. Outside of conditions never likely to exist outside of a lab', the production of those carotenoids will not be affected by cultural conditions, except in extent; the plant is geneticall;y primed to produce those pigments/brown spots.
There are no brown spots (that I can make out), on the plants in the OP.

My greenhouse regularly sees close to 50C during summer and on sunny still days during winter, will get into the low 30'sC (FWIW).

[AbeelT]

Thanks for your replies.

@CG100: I agree with your remark on this Ledebouria's spotting. It is very similar to that of L. socialis. There is no visible dark pigment in the spots. In the youngest leaves, the leaf base does show a bit of dark coloration.
I did the marginata test. The leaves tear easily. You do see fibres when the leaves are torn, see picture. But I suppose this is not what you'd expect with L. marginata?
I had already checked Venter's Synopsis on the Genus Ledebouria Roth (2008), and did not find similar looking species there. Of course, that publication only describes South African Ledebouria species, and I have no clue on the origin of these specimens.

@Too Many Plants!: I acquired these plants only recently, and I don't know what the seller's growing conditions were. However, there certainly seems to be some natural variation in this species, as the specimen left in the picture has slightly broader leaves and larger dark blotches compared to the other plant. Indeed, identifying species just by looking at pictures is difficult, given the plasticity of these plants.

[CG100]

I did check a dry leaf on the L. marginata here, prompted by this conversation, and got pretty much what you did, so, as a VERY provisional ID, L. marginata seems possible and a far better choice as an aff. on a label than revoluta.

The website does not show every L. sp. in RSA, but quite a few - SANBI, and flowers are shown in close-up.

There isn't a huge amount of information available on the genus, but it seems safe to say that species that have a large range tend to vary considerably.

Whatever it is, it is a very nice plant for us lededourophiles.