Identifying Korean lilies

Started by Rdevries, June 02, 2022, 11:35:22 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Rdevries

Lilium distichum and Lilium tsingtauense are both orange asiatic lilies in bloom now in southern Kentucky.

I used to be able to distinguish these with L tsingtauense as up facing (sky) and leaf whorels and L distictum having more of a raceme with outfacing flowers and a taller stem with scattered leaves above a lower leaf whorl.

These lilies were planted together with the species somewhat separated. They have not been in the same ground long enough to hybridise but the rules above to distinguish them seem to be blurred.

My L tsingtauense are from Eddie McRae offered through the now defunct Species Lily Preservation Group and have a bilateral flower symmetry with the lower sepal pointing down. The illustrations in books (Fox, Growing Lilies) have the flower tepals evenly spaced in radial symmetry.

The L distichtum came from A friend now at Longwood and are believed to be the correct species.

Both flower symmetry forms are present on my plants now but the flower symmetry does not line up with the leaf patterns. Can the radial or bilateral flower symmetry be used to distinguish between L tsingauense and L distichum.

Or do i have something else growing here? 

Can some of you lily specialists help me out.
Latitude: +36.99028 (36°59'25.008"N)
Insolation: 5.85 to 1.64 kWh/m2/day

Rick R.

All of those pics show hybrid(s), in my opinion.  As you say, they are a blur, and I don't see any real differences between your pics.  It would be helpful if you have any old pics to share that show the differences that "used to be".

My distichums (two clones from Chen Yi) never have more than one whorl of leaves, consistent with the Flora of China description.  Also consistent with FOC is the many small, regularly attached leaves (bracts?) on the main stalk above the leaf whorl for distichum, not present in tsingtauense. 
Lilium distichum lvs26Jun18 P6260475.jpg      Lilium distichum habbud11Jul14DSC05101.jpg
Much like the dimorphic leaves of L. rosthornii, there are no intermediary form leaves.

- buds are quite round in cross-section compared to the strongly trinagular form of tsingtauense.  Flowers always in a nodding position, even the topmost flower or if there is only a single floret. Pedicels uniform. (second pic, L. tsingtauense buds)
Lilium distichum fl&budspikes15Jul19 P7150303.jpg      Lilium tsingtauense  flspike20Jun16 P6203020.jpg

Whether or not everything I have said here thus far is true, clearly, none of your pics have any of these characteristics.   I don't see how they could be L. distichum.  If you dig distichum bulbs, all or most of the scales should be articulate.  Tsingtauense bulbs do not have articulate scales.  I haven't noticed any articulate scales in hybrids, either.

  I am not sure anyone in the USA has a real L. tsingtauense.   In my search over the years, I have several different clones that claim to be, but aren't.  From seed, too.  I confess that the pic above alluded to as tsingtauense is not, but shows the correct triangular buds.  I grew it from supposed tsingtauense seed, and it was so promising with that first flower opening in correct positioning, but alas, as subsequent flowers opened, the nodding became apparent.
Lilium tsingtauense closest flstalk22Jun16 P6223122.jpg 

And another runner-up, different again, but I'm not totally convinced yet.
Lilium tsingtauense fls22Jun20 P6223560.jpg

From what I can tell, Darm's seem to be right:
 https://groups.io/g/lilium/message/830

To complicate things more, I have some tissue culture tsingtauense from Matthias.  Not at all mature, but unlike any seedling ones I have ever grown.  they are the three on the left (2 clones), and unlike any martagon section species I've ever seen.  The mystery continues..... and I am anxious to see what they really are!  (right-rear is tissue culture L. distichum).
L..tsing,dist,kess tc14May22 T5147186.jpg

 
So I have no doubt that there are swarms of natural hybrids in the wild, as the most common tsingtauense imposter, that has been in the trade for at least 50 years, is also a natural hybrid (and the one I put in the 2021 Lily auction).    I find that these hybrids cross quite easily among themselves, and I have many of my own.  BTW, they are all delightfully tasty (but time consuming to clean!).
Just west of Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA. USDA Zone 4b

Rdevries

Thanks for your detailed reply Rick

Here are photos of the buds.
The first 2 pics are supposed to be L distichum but have triangular buds.
Latitude: +36.99028 (36°59'25.008"N)
Insolation: 5.85 to 1.64 kWh/m2/day

Rdevries

#3
This pic show buds on what is also supposed to be L distichum are more rounded. But the small Leavis above the whorl are not present here. 

I seem to recall the SLPG plants were shorted with only one leaf whorl when i was growing them in frigid Michigan.  In Kentucky everything seems to grow faster and larger. And multiplies faster.
E7FA9C0F-9267-4632-81D9-671A30F7CE9E.jpg
Latitude: +36.99028 (36°59'25.008"N)
Insolation: 5.85 to 1.64 kWh/m2/day

Rdevries

#4
This is the only pic from year with buds on what is supposed to be L tsingtauense. It too is angular.
Latitude: +36.99028 (36°59'25.008"N)
Insolation: 5.85 to 1.64 kWh/m2/day

Luminita

Rick and Rimmer
I have L. miquelianum - the bulb is certainly articulated, I planted it last fall. The buds are not flowering yet, but they are certainly triangular in shape like the L. tsingtauense. There is only one whirl of leaves, 12, and they are wavey, 2 larger leaves alternate going up, and a bunch of buds under which a few smaller leaves are growing. We are about 2-3 weeks behind here in MN, so it will be some time before they bloom. 

The L. tsingtauense I have has no articulate scales, the whirl leaves are straight, and the bulbs are also triangular in cross section. I have not seen yet the flowers to compare, but will do so when they open. I have yet to get a L. distichum bulb, but I have 15 seeds that are sprouted and being stratified. Pictures will follow when they bloom.
Luminita

Rick R.

#6
The "rounder but still triangular" bud one might be L. tsingtauense, assuming the flower in the lower right is not part of it.  That one shows the flower nodding.

All your other pics, Rimmer, I still say are hybrid(s).  Also should have described the triangular buds as being strongly ribbed, too.  Distichum buds are not so.  l. distichum bulbs have articulated scales, too.


Lumitina, interesting about your "L. miqulianum".  I too, have a clone "L. miquelianum" (a natural hybrid of L. tsingtauense x L. distichum or L. medeoloides), it also has just one whorl of leaves but bulbs never have articulated scales, and leaves are more wavy than any supposed L. tsingtauense I've seen.  Attached some pics of it.  I received the clone from a man who had it at least since 1985.
Just west of Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA. USDA Zone 4b

Luminita


"My L tsingtauense are from Eddie McRae offered through the now defunct Species Lily Preservation Group and have a bilateral flower symmetry with the lower sepal pointing down. The illustrations in books (Fox, Growing Lilies) have the flower tepals evenly spaced in radial symmetry. "

Rimmer - what do you mean by "now defunct Species Lily Preservation Group..." ?

I see in the last QB inside top cover Species Lily Preservation under Vijay Chandhok is still present, mentioned, and recently several mentions were made, articles and such. Was there or do you know of any information regarding their activities? 

I inquired about this group about 2-3 years ago and what their plans are to save/promote species are and I received one envelope with a few yellow canadense lilium seeds from Vijay via Barbara Ronningen as the main activity was to ask NALS members to grow one specie. 
Is there something more you can share?

Thanks,
Luminita

Steve Marak

Quote from: Rick R. on June 06, 2022, 03:26:24 PMIf you dig distichum bulbs, all or most of the scales should be articulate.  Tsingtauense bulbs do not have articulate scales.  I haven't noticed any articulate scales in hybrids, either.
I'm not knowledgeable about lilies and have nothing useful to contribute to the discussion, but as a lily novice may I ask what is meant by the term "articulate scales"? I asked a friend who is a lily breeder and he didn't know either (but did kindly explain another term of lily scale morphology I didn't know, "jointed scales").

Thanks,

Steve

Rick R.

"Jointed" scales is another name for "articulate" scales. Same thing.  Here are some pics.  First two of an open pollenated Super Tsing cross, the last one is Lilium distichum.
Just west of Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA. USDA Zone 4b

Steve Marak


Rdevries

One of the L distichtum bulbs has some loose scales at the surface under the oak leaves. It is definitely 'articulate'.  But yellow not white like Ricks photo. 
Latitude: +36.99028 (36°59'25.008"N)
Insolation: 5.85 to 1.64 kWh/m2/day

Rick R.

Bulb color can be deceiving because it can change, and there is always the possibility of species variability, too.
Lilium davidii is a good example.
-- Freshly dug bulbs
Lilium davidii var. willmottiae2 bulbs17oct14 DSC07692.jpg

-- These same bulbs (plus some others) twelve days later, exposed to air in the garage.
Lilium davidii var. willmottiae2 bulbs13dlater30Oct14 DSC07771.jpg

-- Bulbs expose to light in the garage.
 Lilium davidii var. willmottiae2 bulbslightedside30Oct14 DSC07780.jpg 

-- The exact same bulbs, showing the "dark" side of the bulbs (opposite the window) 
Lilium davidii var. wilmottiae2 bulbsdarkside30Oct14 DSC07781.jpg 

And there is more to it than even that.  This is the exact same L. distichum plant as the bulb I previously showed.  That one (above) was grown in a sand and compost mix.  This is the same bulb, years before when it grew in a very heavy rich clay.
 Lilium distichum segments4Oct11 P1140116.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ya know, bulbs are beautiful.....
Colorful10 bulblets10Nov13 DSC00544.jpg
Just west of Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA. USDA Zone 4b