What's Wrong With My Griffinia Plants?

[CG100]

Neonic's have been banned with very few exceptions, within Europe for several years.

Propagation by seed does not transmit the virus

What virus?
At least some can be and certainly are. Simple logic and my knowledge of basic biology would suggest that any and all can be.

[Bern]

I've been thinking more about the uptake of trace nutrients like magnesium in potted plants and I remember reading that absorption through the roots is facilitated by neutral to lower pH levels in the water.  I have gotten out of the habit of checking my water for pH, but i used to do it regularly because my tap water is alkaline.  I then treated the water with a capful of white vinegar per gallon to bring the pH to slightly below 7.0. 

I just tested my tap water and the pH is about 8.5.  So, I will adjust the pH to a bit below 7.0 and I hope that this will help the plants absorb the fertilizer and trace nutrients better, and maybe help to resolve the yellow leaves problem in my Griffinias. 

I also purchased a packet of Epson Salts this afternoon.  An unscented 3 pound bag was about $4.00. At one tablespoon per gallon of pH adjusted water, it will last a long time.

So, I've got a few new techniques in my arsenal to try to help my plants. I'm hoping the pH adjustment will be the biggest help.  And if so, it will benefit my other plants as well.

Are any of you using any chemicals to adjust the pH of your plant water?

[David Pilling]

What virus?
At least some can be and certainly are.

Any virus present. It is common to read that seed grown lily plants are virus free, for example this quote from the RHS lily group:

They can, of course, be raised from seed which has many benefits. Not least of these is avoiding the transmission of viral diseases.

I believed this and thought the way to a virus free lily garden would be to grow it from seed. Perhaps lily seed is more virus free than other seed.

Quoting Google AI (which is becoming more erratic by the day)

No, seed grown plants are not always virus free
A small number of plant viruses can be transmitted through infected seeds or pollen. In fact, about one-third of plant viruses are seed-transmitted.


There is an interesting paper:
Transmission through seeds: The unknown life of plant viruses

The PBS wiki says:

"With a few exceptions, the most reliable manner in which to obtain virus-free stock is by germinating ones own geophytes from seed."

It then goes on to list viruses, stating which ones are not passed on via seed.

[CG100]

Any virus present. It is common to read that seed grown lily plants are virus free, for example this quote from the RHS lily group:

But many viruses are carried in seeds, and given that no amateur ever knows either if a plant has virus, or if the plant does, which one...................................

You/the RHS has just picked a small section of one of many papers available online about virus transmission via seed. Even the one you quote goes into details about seed transmission.
Just one example -

TRANSMISSION OF VIRUS DISEASES BY SEED,

[Uli]

Hello again, Bern,
What if you would repot one of these plants into fresh substrate and stop fertilizing it? The new substrate should of course contain some nutrients. Are you re-using your substrate? I went back to your initial post and feel that you are fertilizing a lot. I use a soluble fertilizer of similar concentrations but I only apply it about three or maybe four times during the growing cycle and that for pots outdoors which are exposed to our heavy winter rains. I use the recommended concentration and repot every year, not re-using the substrate. With excellent results. Measuring the pH of the water certainly is a good idea, but can you also measure the pH of the substrate? Soluble mineral fertilizers do also influence soil pH to either acidic or alkaline depending on their composition.

[David Pilling]

But many viruses are carried in seeds

Yes, no argument from me now. I was merely pointing out that before this discussion I had a different (incorrect) point of view.

[CG100]

Yes, no argument from me now. I was merely pointing out that before this discussion I had a different (incorrect) point of view.

Apologies - misread that/didn't read enough.

[Bern]

Measuring the pH of the water certainly is a good idea, but can you also measure the pH of the substrate?

What if you would repot one of these plants into fresh substrate and stop fertilizing it?

Hi Uli,

I don't have a meter that will measure soil pH. But, I have so many plants in my typical soil mix that are doing well that I don't think soil pH is a problem at this time.

I think it is a good idea about repotting one plant and using a lesser frequency of fertilizing it to see if there is a difference between the two plants as time goes on.  I have several variables to work with now that I hope will correct the problem.

And that brings me to one more variable that I'd like to ask you, Carl, David, Arnold, or anyone else reading this post who would like to answer.

I remember reading that someone recommended using a dilute solution of hydrogen peroxide in the water for your plants from time to time. The benefit that was claimed was that the hydrogen peroxide "cleansed" the roots and this allowed better nutrient uptake that was good for plant growth.  Have you heard anything similar; have you ever done this with any of your plants; and if yes, what concentration of H2O2 did you use?

Thanks!

[Uli]

Hello Bern,

I have never used hydrogen peroxide for my plants. This idea seems odd to me. Hydrogen peroxide is a strong oxidizer. In the medical it is used to clean and disinfect, it removes organic detritus, blood and the like. Or think of bleaching hair.....
It may depend on the concentration but I would worry about causing more damage than good by using this for plants. And how to apply? Water a pot with substrate? For how long would it be active in the substrate? Or rinse bare roots? 

[Ron]

I thought that the ancient tale about watering/spraying in bright sun had finally been abandoned, but obviously not. If it were true, plants would be laid waste after rain if the sun came out - something very common in the UK at least.

I think rainfall is basically formed from water vapor that coalesces around a bit of airborne debris until the droplet falls.  Except for the debris, it is essentially distilled water at neutral pH.  I guess it must be the debris that reacts with the water to produce things such as acid rain.  Water from the tap is generally more or less alkaline, with suspended minerals.  The alkalinity is used to prevent the leaching of metals into the water (small amounts of lead are found in plumbing fixtures).  These suspended minerals in the water can be left behind as the water evaporates from wet leaves, in some cases leaving a white crust behind (mineral salts?).  The same may occur with the roots.  I don't know if this is a possible source of damage.

There are other issues with alkaline water and plants affecting nutrient availability, detailed in an article in the Cactus & Succulent Society of America's journal by Elton Roberts & Malcolm Burleigh, titled "Ammonium Nitrogen and Acidic Water for Xerophytic Plant Growth" (2010 Volume 82 Number 4).    The interesting thing for bulb growers is their method seem to apply to most families of plants, not just cactus and succulents.  There is a subsequent article, titled "Watering Systems for Success in Growing Plants, Using Low pH and Ammonium Nitrogen" (2010 Volume 82 Number 6), detailing methods for everyone from small to large grow operations.  I found these freely available on the internet searching by the titles and author's names.

In what I think was an older article by the same authors, they state:

Our sole wish is to help people who are experiencing problems with their plants.  We feel that this may apply to all types of container culture and possibly to all horticulture in general.  The occurrence of highly alkaline water seems to be quite prevalent. For this reason we would allow and actually encourage the dissemination of this article as long as you don't misquote us or take our statements out of context.

I saw a photo somewhere showing the pH balanced watering system used by the curator of the Huntington Botanic Garden's world renowned cactus & succulent garden, so these ideas seem to be accepted at the highest levels.

[CG100]

I think rainfall is basically formed from water vapor that coalesces around a bit of airborne debris until the droplet falls.  Except for the debris, it is essentially distilled water at neutral pH. 

The old wives' tale is that the droplets act as lenses and scorch the plants - like schoolboys use (or used to use when I was one) a magnifying glass to either scorch things or set things on fire.

I would suspect that most rain is on the acid side of neutral today given that it will absorb only neutral of acidic gases from the air.

In the UK the vast majority of people will use either rain water from a butt, or tap water for watering. The legal limits for tap water pH here are 6.5 to 9.5.
The only resrevations that I have ever heard of in the UK have related to Proteacae and the various "bog plants" - Sarracenia and the likes. Both should be watered with rain water, although Proteacae cannot utilise ammoniacal nitrogen - they are usually fed with urea.
I don't recall seeing or hearing of water treament for horticultural use, just concerns over quantities. 

[Steve Marak]

I have never used hydrogen peroxide for my plants. This idea seems odd to me. Hydrogen peroxide is a strong oxidizer. In the medical it is used to clean and disinfect, it removes organic detritus, blood and the like. Or think of bleaching hair.....
It may depend on the concentration but I would worry about causing more damage than good by using this for plants. And how to apply? Water a pot with substrate? For how long would it be active in the substrate? Or rinse bare roots?

I just tested my tap water and the pH is about 8.5.  So, I will adjust the pH to a bit below 7.0 and I hope that this will help the plants absorb the fertilizer and trace nutrients better, and maybe help to resolve the yellow leaves problem in my Griffinias.

I would suspect that most rain is on the acid side of neutral today given that it will absorb only neutral of acidic gases from the air.

Hydrogen peroxide. We began using H2O2 on the advice of a friend who's been a commercial orchid grower, on a fair-sized scale, for decades. One of his degrees is in plant physiology. (Those things don't mean that he's always right, but I'm citing them to show that his credentials are much stronger than mine!) He uses it for bacterial and fungal rot issues, and advises buying a new bottle of the common 3% solution and pouring some all over the affected parts of the plant each day for several days. He does not rinse the H2O2 - it degrades so quickly there's no point - nor does he worry about getting it in the medium or on the roots. We had a Phalaenopsis with crown rot, which is fast moving and almost invariably fatal within a few days, so with nothing to lose we tried his advice. The plant recovered. Maybe that's a fluke, maybe not, but we were converted and now use H2O2 regularly. We've never seen any indication that it harms even sensitive roots.

pH of water systems. I've been told by several people, including someone who worked at the treatment plant of our local water authority, that many systems artificially raise the pH of their treated water to minimize corrosion in the pipes. Since the pipes we see going in these days are all plastic, maybe that's a relic from the past. Our tap water is also around 8.5, but by the time it comes out of the RO system it's down where it needs to be for better nutrient uptake.

pH of rain. Acid anhydrides in the air (carbon, sulfur, and nitrogen oxides) will quickly dissolve into very pure water and lower the pH. A research chemist who was also a plant person told me that if he left a beaker of his ultra-pure water (kept under inert gas) out in the air for 15 minutes to answer a phone call, the pH would be lowered so much he'd have to pour it out and start over. I believe equilibrium pH for pure water left standing is generally around 5.6-5.8, but it's been a long time since I saw that so ... I can say that the pH of just-fallen rain here (NW Arkansas, USA) is in the low 6 range.

Viruses in general. As with lily growers, a big topic for orchid growers, and a huge amount of misinformation out there. There are simple antigen tests for a couple of the most common orchid ones, but I'm not aware of any for amaryllid viruses. In orchids, there is no cure, but it's sometimes possible to produce virus-free clones from meristem tissue, and the common orchid viruses aren't seed-transmitted so with care virus-free offspring can be produced. Again, I don't know about amaryllids. I have seen a report of curing a virus-infected amaryllid but it involved essentially cooking the bulb for some time at a very precise temperature which the bulb could - barely - survive but was fatal to the virus (!). Bern, I would not rush to discard your plant as having a virus until you're convinced it's not environmental, but I would isolate and watch carefully.

Steve

[Bern]

I would not rush to discard your plant as having a virus until you're convinced it's not environmental, but I would isolate and watch carefully.

Hi Steve.  Thanks for your analysis and advice.  I am adjusting the pH of my plant water to about 6.5 and I'm going to stop feeding as much fertilizer for a while to see how things progress.  I may not have a clearer idea of what is going on until next Spring or Summer when the plants are outside again. My other Griffinia plants show no signs of problems at all.

I also have read about many people who use H2O2 on their plants to treat bacterial and fungal issues and to "purify" the root systems to better uptake nutrients.  In fact, an experienced grower and PBS member recently related his use of undiluted H2O2 to treat red rust (caused by the fungus Stagonospora curtisii) on several of his Amaryllids, including a Griffinia.     I'm not going to try this yet, but as you report, it is being done successfully for many issues plants have.

The pH is another matter.

Cactus & Succulent Society of America's journal by Elton Roberts & Malcolm Burleigh, titled "Ammonium Nitrogen and Acidic Water for Xerophytic Plant Growth" (2010 Volume 82 Number 4).

I belong to the CSSA and I read both of the articles by Roberts and Burleigh quoted by Ron above.  These articles prompted me to begin adjusting the pH of my water before using it on my plants.  I had gotten away from it, but I've started again because of my Griffinia's problem.  The thing about their articles, if I remember correctly, is that they were more anecdotal, and not highly empirical.  But many people owning cactus nurseries are now treating their water to adjust pH because of these articles.  A key point that the authors make is that they think pH adjusted water with fertilizer containing only ammoniacal nitrogen works best.  However, if you read the labels on the plant fertilizers that you can purchase commercially, most also contain nitrogen from urea and nitrate. So, at least for me, their articles, again if I remember them correctly, were a bit confusing in this regard.  Plant fertilizer solely containing ammoniacal nitrogen is not readily available to hobbyists.  Nevertheless, it seems prudent to adjust the pH from 8.5 or above to a bit below 7, and it's easy to do. 

Fingers crossed.......