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OK, last try on this one: The only thing obvious here is that we define "Empirically evident" in different ways. To me it is empirically evident that a "God" (male, female, diverse, united or split in sub-deities), quite similar to a "nation" or or an "Ideology" is a socio- psychological construct, gaining indirect power through the real people believing in it/them/him/whatever - mind you, not in the Terry Pratchett way, but through the actions of those people.

I'm happy to discuss those two very different points of view of the two of us, and invite others to join in

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End of the text from the User Martin - now here's the message from the Administrator Martin: Find a constructive, on topic way to contribute to this forum's on topic area. When you've proven your interest in geophytic plants, which is the purpose of this forum, I'll re-open this discussion - not a second earlier.
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no one can awake those who are pretending to be sleeping, nor one can wash the stool. so i admit my defeated.

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and i thought that real mother ( or recognized agent of Lord Krishna such as Srila Prabhupada ) knows it that our father is male, is person. and his name, addrress and everything she knows it.

but its fun that immature childerns nowdays are going to give us there testimonies. ( just see the folly of them that they thing that they are going to be heard as well, waha! )

Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 19, 2022, 10:02:24 AMI feel you are jumping all over the place - and I guess you're thinking I'm jumping all over the place - now guess what people from the outside think - bet they only see trampolines here...

I have a feeling this discussion doesn't lead anywhere - maybe you could reference Nelumbo nucifera

in Hinduism for David - sacred lotus, as you don't seem to be a botanist person - because over all, this IS a plant forum. It's absolutely fine to have a totally off-topic discussion from time to time, because we're all real people and it is useful for community building, but I haven't seen anything on-topic from you up to now - so maybe you could show us first why you want to be in this particular community?

it leads to this emprical fact that there is father ( or God aka Krishna ) before our birth. which you dont want to admit.

since you do not even know how to recognize the biological father even. but fun is you are going to give your testimony on the existence of omnicent or all powerful God ? waha! what an nice joke it is. that people are not even competent yet want to give there testimony as an immature chidlerns.

and we are stupid enough to listen such immature childerns testimony instead of real mother ? ( or recognized agent of Lord Krishna such as Srila Prabhupada ) waha! just see the folly.
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religious slavery ? look at the americans that what they are doing with official instruments. look how they turned thailand into sex slaves or workers. because thai government saw womens and childerns as another raw materials in which imf and world bank may have some interests.
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and now at the whole you are finished, you are broken now. and cant do anything rational. but yet its fun to hear the words into your favor. ( waha! ) what an joke you are in yourself.

Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 19, 2022, 08:40:46 AMActually, the "average" British consider themselves Anglican Christians, not atheists - especially back in open colonial time. Open colonial as opposed to now disguised in several different economical dependencies, don'T worry, I'm quite aware of those effects. Colonialism was wrong, and there's no European "nation" without blood on their hands. Fun fact: Religion was often used to mask economical interests and proved to be quite flexible as can be seen in the history of slave trade. Is an atheist world better? Maybe not inherently so, but it tends to be more honest.

I still wonder why you're so obsessed with biological fathers - to the development of the child ever after that first transfer of genetic material, all that counts is the social father. Mine looks actually a lot like myself on old pictures, and my mother is quite conservative (talk about changes between generations), so I find it likely that said social father is my biological father, but I actually don't care if there was someone else involved. Family is where people care for each other. That genetic thing can be quite toxic in too many cases.

leave whatever british done. now it has no value.
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what religious slave trade you are talking ? huh? look at your present globalization, which in the name of giving loans turned entire thailand into sex tourism spot or sex slaves. for imf and world bank brought this globalization and another side they were devalueating the currecy and one side eating all raw materials resources like iron mines, gold mines, daimond mines, forests, rivers, mountains of herbs, etc everything. and they destroyed many countries like russia, thailand, korea, indonesia, thailand etc.

look at the currency of indonesia, 1 dollar vs 15000 or 14000 rupia, and thailand you destroyed it so badly that its governemnt saw there wifes, mothers, daugthers and sisters as another raw materials.

and your globalization contributed to turn entire thailand into sex slaves. so what religious slave trade you talk about ? huh? its rubbish farce. for look at what america is doing right now. it created sex slavery. so dont blame religion again and see what you are doing with entire world right now.
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now first of all prove it that you are competent enough to recognize even biological father. for you want to jump on omnicent God.

now bring your modern method of recognization of our biological father. so that we can know that whether you are competent enough to jump on god or not.

and keep these things away that what you feel or think, i do not care that what you think or feels. jsut give me the damn scientific method of recognization of our biological father. and nothing else.

Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 19, 2022, 07:32:27 AMAs you might already have extrapolated from my statements, I'm an Atheist, which luckily comes with the strong belief (pun intended) that killing someone for teaching this or that religious theory (Atheists tend to call that "Fairy tale", but let's not pour oil into the flames) makes as little sense as religion in the first place, and is even more harmful than cutting body parts of minors who can't consent or disapprove. By the way that's also true for "replacement religions" like nationalism. I mean anyone could go " buhuhuu my sphere of influence" and then doing special operations across the border. It's all so ridiculous and infuriatingly unnecessary. We as a species definitively have more important problems to address if we want to live on this planet for much longer. Another point where religions are problematic - religious people often don't want to live on this planet much longer...
Can I prove there is no omnipotent higher being? Proof of non-existence is difficult. I can call it highly unlikely. Can you disprove the omnipotent higher being is named Q, has an obnoxious character and snips his fingers all the time?
@David :Nelumbo nucifera

seems to play a role lots of Asian religions, but I doubt this colleague will give you a summary on that....

now leave this all killings, for british came into power by killing in same ways. and they are godless atheists.

beside that you own war industries and slaughter houses both for killing poor and innocent animals and human beings who are also innocent as well.
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before british came here india ( not red indians but bharat varsha ) was on the top in every field of work and on the top of trade as well and china was 2nd at that time. and china is still existing because british remained here in india and just made them trade with them with out opium. for british empire means everything is brought from somewhere else or another part of the world and develop it somewhere else and sell it eslewhere nad take profit at home london or england. for there land does not produce anything besides some potato and watermellons. that was the main cause of going outside there land.

so anyways anyone who is on the top of the world in sell and trade than how can you call them declining as your western youth is declining or is suicidal at present moment ? how can you call them such things like that ? indians culture was declining ? or suicidal ? for had it been such case than how they were on the top and china was second and these are not my words by the reports of your own british officers and lords. which are kept in india office library.

side note: dont say religion because this entire propaganda was againt indian culture instead of any religion.

so they werent declining like you western people.
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and what can i do ? i cant make any compromise for one has to call spade a spade. and its an analogy. in which whore means pseudo scientists, philosophers, teachers, psychologists etc who are going on unchecked at present moment. and real mother means recognzied agent of Lord Krishna such as Srila Prabhupada. and this is an analogy. cant make any compromise in calling spade a spade.
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now why are you jumping on omnipotent being ? when you do not even know how to recognize biological father yet ? huh? just tell me how do we recognize our biological father ? where is your scientific method ? bring that even and prove it that you are competent.

than we shall certainly jump on omnipotent being ( if you can bring scientific method of recognization even our biological father. ) prove it that you are competent. bring your scientific method.

Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 19, 2022, 06:54:10 AMOh, I do not deny the existence of a father (I guess that's more of a Catholic thing. Poor Joseph of Nazareth) - I just wrote there are circumstances where the mother doesn't know who the father is - some of them really bad (as in non consensual), others only made bad by, again, patriarch society (As in it just felt good, no need to exchange names).

I'm not British, by the way. And you started a conversation.

im not blaming british or anyone else. but because you spoke that its dangerous to accept the authority so i have to tell you that people are accepting now english people as authorities. and nothing new but same things are going on.

and there sole business is to defy the existence of father ( or God or say Krishna ) just because they havent seen him does not means that we have to testimony of some spoiled childerns. who are not hearing the real mother ( or recognized agent of Lord Krishna such as Srila Prabhupada ) and hearing some whores ( like these present pseudo scientists, politicians, teachers, psychologists, philosophers etc )

formally British simply used to kill our teachers or authorities. and push there english authorities ( that is how they have come ) anyways leave it. i didnt blamed you for anything nor i want to blame Briths. ( because by blaming them i cant make them special for anyone even any dog ( or muslims in past and in future these poor commies ) if came into power than can do same what they did ) so nothing special about British people as well.
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anyways why dont you explain your modern method of recognization of our biological father ? whom we did not seen before our birth ?

come on, explain Modern method of recognization of our biological father ( even ) whom also none of us has seen before our births.

Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 19, 2022, 06:20:36 AMOh, there's so many ideas in here that give me a headache - all that unconditional trust in authorities, who themselves have imperfect human brains - There has been a lot of research about the mechanisms of filtering memories and the creation of the good old times. Oh, and by the way: A mother doesn't have to know the identity of the father of her child for various reasons - though because we live in a patriarchy and a father seems important, there have been lots of mechanisms installed to ensure we can pinpoint the responsible one biological male, most of them trying to shame the women who break free from these conventions - or even those who are separated from these conventions by force.

Passed down evidence is treacherous - let's take one of my favourite examples: Gold! Many cultures on the planet value it highly, and teach the value to the smallest children by myths and fairytales. As crisis after crisis ravages the planet, many people acquire gold as an "ultimate value" in case the money systems collapses. The truth is: Gold is reasonable useful in Micro-electronics due to its good electrical conduction and its near immunity to corrosion. It also has a few theoretical uses in heterogeneous catalysis, which honestly never translated to a practical application. Besides that, all of it's value for one in a crisis depends on others sharing the cultural notion of "gold is precious". If you're really on your own, a flintstone may prove to have a lot more value to you.

one thing I can't deny is that chanting makes happy - could possibly be a similar effect like smiling making happy - the use of certain muscles or hearing or making certain patterns of sound can make your brain activate the reward center. Lets follow the great prophet George o'Dowd down this road - though I'm quite sure he has broken some of your rules - and not only the Garlic, I'd think....

now if we trace it all out than same faith in english authorities is going on. and people are sending there kids without questioning anyone into modern schools which british established by destroying all other schools and banning all languages they set english as medium.

or else do you think that you are something special or above the rest that entire world will all of sudden began to imitate and behave like you ? huh?

since Lord Macaulay wanted it and you taken him as authoirty and pushed it.
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and under no circumtences you can defy the existence of father. ( for its an empirical fact ) and you are not dropped from the sky into the womb of your mother. ( that is the central point ) but at present moment you are defying the existence of father.

now you should tell me that why i should listen to you ? huh? who are you ? anything special or above the rest ? nope! you english are also the damn same like rest but just covered because official instruments were into your hands. but that does not makes you right in the first place. it just makes you as good as muslims or commies for muslims ruled by force and enjoyed the power.

now commies are going to come in power in future by force but that does not makes them right. ( just like you are not )

Quote from: David Pilling on June 19, 2022, 05:06:12 AMDoes your religion have anything to say about plants - for example there are interesting mentions of bulbs in the bible. Do you have anything to say about the plants in India, which are often neglected.

You'll survive here longer if you throw us something relevant.

first of all clear it out that who is Tristram Shandy ? and what are your fundamentals ? huh? so that we can make progress in the arguement.
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and it is fun to see that you yourself are avoiding the questions which you hurled at me. i answered it. now its alright if you do not want to answer that.

let me not survive for longer, by your shifting burdon of proof and applying give dog bad name and hang it policy with the combination of might makes right.

since you explained nothing and expecting me to explain everything so that you can defy it all and act like an special snowflake or above the rest.

first of all you explain your damn fundamentals and tell me as well that who is this Tristram Shandy ? and we do we take him as any authorative figure ? huh? and why one should listen to bible ? what is so special in it ? why not listen to islam ? budhism ? or rest of 3500 religions as well ?

bring your fundamentals so that we may see what is what and where you are standing.

Quote from: David Pilling on June 19, 2022, 04:01:19 AMWhat about Tristram Shandy, or those implanted cameras that are going to record our every waking second. You disrespected onions and garlic above, and the society exists to promote their growth. We might have a fundamental disagreement here.

why cameras ? huh? why not supreme Personality of Godhead ( or Krishna ) or God, who is watching our everything from the location of our hearts ? since no one can hide anything from him. now one can cheat cameras and other recorded records.

but one cant cheat him.
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beside that i disrespect nothing, if one is unable to give these ups than no problem. but chanting is very- very important.

and what explanation your Tristram Shandy has got ? which supports your fundamentals ? huh? what fundamentals you have got ? give me another explanation so that we may be able to see what is your position and what makes you above the rest or special.

Practical Explanation ( For Example ) :- `1st of all can you tell me every single seconds detail from that time when you born ?? ( i need every seconds detail ?? that what- what you have thought and done on every single second )

can you tell me every single detail of your `1 cheapest Minute Or your whole hour, day, week, month, year or your whole life ??

if you are not able to tell me about this life then what proof do you have that you didn't forget your past ? and that you will not forget this present life in the future ?

that is Fact that Supreme Lord Krishna exists but we posses no such intelligence to understand him.
there is also next life. and i already proved you that no scientist, no politician, no so-called intelligent man in this world is able to understand this Truth. cuz they are imagining. and you cannot imagine what is god, who is god, what is after life etc.
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for example :Your father existed before your birth. you cannot say that before your birth your father don,t exists.

So you have to ask from mother, "Who is my father?" And if she says, "This gentleman is your father," then it is all right. It is easy.
Otherwise, if you makes research, "Who is my father?" go on searching for life; you'll never find your father.

( now maybe...maybe you will say that i will search my father from D.N.A, or i will prove it by photo's, or many other thing's which i will get from my mother and prove it that who is my Real father.{ So you have to believe the authority. who is that authority ? she is your mother. you cannot claim of any photo's, D.N.A or many other things without authority ( or ur mother ).

if you will show D.N.A, photo's, and many other proofs from other women then your mother. then what is use of those proofs ??} )

same you have to follow real authority. "Whatever You have spoken, I accept it," Then there is no difficulty. And You are accepted by Devala, Narada, Vyasa, and You are speaking Yourself, and later on, all the acaryas have accepted. Then I'll follow.
I'll have to follow great personalities. The same reason mother says, this gentleman is my father. That's all. Finish business. Where is the necessity of making research? All authorities accept Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You accept it; then your searching after God is finished.

Why should you waste your time?
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all that is you need is to hear from authority ( same like mother ). and i heard this truth from authority " Srila Prabhupada " he is my spiritual master.
im not talking these all things from my own.
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in this world no `1 can be Peace full. this is all along Fact.

cuz we all are suffering in this world 4 Problems which are Disease, Old age, Death, and Birth after Birth.

tell me are you really happy ?? you can,t be happy if you will ignore these 4 main problem. then still you will be Forced by Nature.
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if you really want to be happy then follow these 6 Things which are No illicit s.ex, No g.ambling, No d.rugs ( No tea & coffee ), No meat-eating ( No onion & garlic's )

5th thing is whatever you eat `1st offer it to Supreme Lord Krishna. ( if you know it what is Guru parama-para then offer them food not direct Supreme Lord Krishna )

and 6th " Main Thing " is you have to Chant " hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare ".
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If your not able to follow these 4 things no illicit s.ex, no g.ambling, no d.rugs, no meat-eating then don,t worry but chanting of this holy name ( Hare Krishna Maha-Mantra ) is very-very and very important.

Chant " hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare " and be happy.

if you still don,t believe on me then chant any other name for 5 Min's and chant this holy name for 5 Min's and you will see effect. i promise you it works And chanting at least 16 rounds ( each round of 108 beads ) of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra daily.
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Here is no Question of Holy Books quotes, Personal Experiences, Faith or Belief. i accept that Sometimes Faith is also Blind. Here is already Practical explanation which already proved that every`1 else in this world is nothing more then Busy Foolish and totally idiot.
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Source(s):
every `1 is already Blind in this world and if you will follow another Blind then you both will fall in hole. so try to follow that person who have Spiritual Eyes who can Guide you on Actual Right Path. ( my Authority & Guide is my Spiritual Master " Srila Prabhupada " )
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if you want to see Actual Purpose of human life then see this link : ( triple w ( d . o . t ) asitis ( d . o . t ) c . o . m {Bookmark it })
read it complete. ( i promise only readers of this book that they { he/she } will get every single answer which they want to know about why im in this material world, who im, what will happen after this life, what is best thing which will make Human Life Perfect, and what is perfection of Human Life. ) purpose of human life is not to live like animal cuz every`1 at present time doing 4 thing which are sleeping, eating, s.ex & fear. purpose of human life is to become freed from Birth after birth, Old Age, Disease, and Death.