Dear Tony and all,
I do not mean this to be argumentative, but you have a short sighted definition of species.
There are plenty of species that are validly named under the regulations of the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature (ICBN). They are validy described, diagnosised, differentiated, published and accepted by the horticultural community. These include (not just in Lycoris), but a number of plant species that are of hybrid origin, diploid, triploid, tetraplaoid and other confirguations.
You seem to be restricting your definitions to a strict classic scientific description of species - a population of similar individuals that are biologically isolated (i.e do not breed with ) other populations. Even restricting to this ‘pure’ definition, L. chinensis and L. longituba are not biologically isolated, but interbereed easily and have fertile offspring. The most recent review of the genus by Roh, Surita, Zhao and Suh , 2002 (" Identificationand Classification of the genus Lycoris using Molecular Markers” - http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~lycoris/…) [ this is a big slow download] accepts that there are 26 species “treated as authentic taxa”. Personally this may be a bit over accepting since it includes a number of ‘new Korean species’ which may just be range extensions of other better known species.
I can’t see any justification for limiting the genus to your 7 fertile diploid species since the genus dates back almost 300 years (1821) and has included a large variety of names.
I do doubt the validity of some of these names in the light of a modern understanding of molecular studies, but they cannot all be discounted out of hand. Hybrids can be handled as named, selected cultivars junder the rules of the Internat. Code for Cultivated Plants although they cannot retain their latinaized names which makes for some difficult situations especially for long cultivatied and widely grown species such as L. squamigera.
I totally agree that there seems to be only 7 fertile diploid species, and that there are taxonomic errors over the years. The total number validly named species seems to be at least twice that number.
Best Jim W.
On Feb 26, 2017, at 7:30 PM, Tony Avent <tony@PLANTDELIGHTS.COM> wrote:
Hi Tony;
Only time for a short reply now. There are only 7 species of lycoris....two with fall foliage and five with spring foliage. There is a trove of DNA that backs this up, and we have studied the 700+ lycoris clones of lycoris we grow in the field, and our analysis agrees. All other lycoris are hybrids.
There are many crosses between spring x spring, fall x fall, and spring x fall foliage types. All of the F1's hybrids between spring x fall show the fall foliage trait to be dominant in the F1 generation. We have not been able to determine how many times a backcross onto a spring foliaged species would be required to bring out the spring foliage phenotypes in the offspring. For seed set you will want to use one of the species are the pod parent, or the single fertile hybrid group listed below.
Spring foliaged species
chinensis (fertile)
longituba(fertile)
sanguinea (fertile)
shaanxiensis (fertile) (probably not in the US...all plants sold under this name are fall-flowering hybrids)
sprengeri (fertile)
Fall foliage species
aurea (fertile)
radiata (fertile, except for the triploid form)
Chromosome numbers vary widely within each species, so each clone would need to tested for any meaningful data. For example, see the published chromosome counts for Lycoris aurea
2n=12 Inariyama 1953)(Bose 1958)
2n=13 (inariyama 1937)(Bose/Flory 1963)
2n=14 (Inariyama 1953)(Liu/Hsu 1989)(Kurita unpub)(Roh etal 2002)
2n=15 (Bose/Flory 1963)(Kurita 1987)(Boufford/Ohba 1998)(Roh etal 2002)
2n=16 (Liu/Hsu 1989)(Kurita unpub)(Roh etal 2002)(Shi etal 2006)(Wu etal 2007)(Zhao etal 2008)(Huang etal 2011)
2n=22 (Furuta 1989)
Once you omit the duplicate published names for the hybrids , below are the names for the remaining published hybrids, although it may turn out that a few more from this list will be duplicates. There is only one fertile published hybrid, L. x rosea (sprengeri x radiata v. pumila)
x albiflora (sterile)
x caldwellii (sterile)
x chejuensis (sterile)
x cinnabarina (sterile)
x elsiae (sterile)
x flavescens var. flavescens (sterile)
x flavescens var. uydoensis (sterile)
x houdyshelii (sterile)
x rosea (same as jacksoniana) (fertile)
x rubroaurantiaca (sterile)
x squamigera (same as elegans, incarnata) (sterile)
x straminea (sterile)
When we finish our analysis and data compilation, we'll be sure to publish it on-line. We hope this helps.
Tony Avent
Proprietor
tony@plantdelights.com
Juniper Level Botanic Garden and Plant Delights Nursery
Ph 919.772.4794/fx 919.772.4752
9241 Sauls Road, Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA
USDA Zone 7b/Winter 0-5 F/Summer 95-105F
"Preserving, Studying, Propagating, and Sharing the World's Flora"
Since 1988, Plant Delights Nursery is THE Source for unique, rare and native perennial plants.
From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Tony Carter
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 2:00 PM
To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [pbs] Lycoris misc - Found
Jim and David,
Thank you for all of this content. The Kurita et al
<https://www.jstor.org/stable/41967120/> is a fantastic resource. I have
read through all of the previous discussions I've found on the subject and
it has helped me a great deal but some of it (probably more than I realize)
I do not yet understand.
Of particular issue for me is the chromosomal relation to sterility versus
fertility. I gather that in Lycoris, triploids are generally sterile or
very close to it and that diploids are generally fertile although there are
apparent, notable exceptions . I would like to be able to understand why
at a basic level. With L. Straminea for example, is it because it has an
odd number (2n = 19) or for some other reason? I have used Google to
search things like 'basic plant genetics' and read a few articles but am
having trouble finding a good primer on karyotypes beyond what Jim laid out
in a past message.
In a recent message Jim suggested larger plants and apricots or
blues/purples as good hybridizing goals. It all interests me but the blues
and purples do in particular. I'm in zone 8a and so am not very restricted
by cold hardiness. What potential, available parents would be good
candidates for this?
Thank you,
Tony Carter
TX 75065
Zone 8a
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