Thanks, Tim. I don't think we are in disagreement here. I do find it puzzling that so often there is contempt for those who study dried plant specimens, even as they remain an essential resource. This article discusses approaches to understanding phylogeny: http://freecourseware.uwc.ac.za/freecourseware/… The article shows two important ideas. First, that classification and phylogeny are two different but closely related pursuits; and that the modern seeks to displace the traditional ("rankless taxonomy" in place of the Linnaean system). The author does not see the former replacing the latter anytime soon-- think of "*Tulipa saxatilis"* being replaced by a "uninominal" or a string of numbers as Jim Shields indicates. The itch to trade out an herbarium-based species concept for an exclusively or primarily DNA-based concept only moves us from one set of difficulties to another and moves science further away from beneficiaries who are not academics themselves. Dylan