pbs Digest, Vol 56, Issue 21

Jonathan jonathan@terraviva.agr.br
Sat, 22 Sep 2007 04:17:33 PDT

-- mens. original --
Assunto:	pbs Digest, Vol 56, Issue 21
De:	pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org
Data:		21/09/2007 15:47

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: what is the opposite of contractile? (totototo@telus.net)
   2. Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth (Jonathan Knisely)
   3. Re: Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth (John T Lonsdale)
   4. Re: Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth (Roy Herold)
   5. Re: Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth (John T Lonsdale)
   6. South American Bulbs (Diana Chapman)
   7. Re: Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth (aaron floden)
   8. Amsterdam bulbing (Lee Poulsen)
   9. Re: Amsterdam bulbing (Arnold Trachtenberg)
  10. Pacific BX 153 CLOSED (Dell Sherk)
  11. Re: Amsterdam bulbing (John Grimshaw)
  12. Re: Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth (Bulbargence)
  13. Re: Amsterdam bulbing (Bulbargence)
  14. Re: Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth (Roy Herold)
  15. Re: Amsterdam bulbing (Darren Sage)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:12:32 -0700
From: totototo@telus.net
Subject: Re: [pbs] what is the opposite of contractile?
To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20070920161249.95MRQP9L30@priv-edmwaa05.telusplanet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 19 Sep 07, at 9:46, Max Withers wrote:

> There is an interesting discussion on the mediterranean plants list
> about bulbs that that seem to push themselves out of the soil,
> occasioned by Drimia (Urginea) maritima:
> 
> http://hort.net/lists/medit-plants/…
> 
> Anyone have any theories about why some bulbs do this (some of the S.
> African Amaryllids also come to mind)? Someone pointed out that just
> because a plant can do something does not necessarily mean there is an
> adaptive reason to do it.

You don't have to go that far to find an example. Galanthus nivalis 
often pushes bulbs to the surface, and I've even seen Narcissus 
cultivars do the same. The physical mechanism seems to be overly 
exuberant production of offsets until crowding forces some onto the 
surface.

The adaptive value is that doing so facilitates asexual reproduction.

Commercial bulbs of /Iris danfordiae/ are notorious for breaking up 
into "rice grains" unless planted very deeply. My guess is that this 
too is a strategy for facilitating asexual reproduction when the 
bulbs are near the soil surface.


-- 
RFW

"It's MY computer, Mr Gates. Stop trying to tell me what it will/won't do."
<http://theregister.co.uk/2007/07/…>


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:50:08 -0500
From: Jonathan Knisely <Jonathan.Knisely@yale.edu>
Subject: [pbs] Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth
To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <46F2B2D0.7010907@yale.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1

I have tubers I grew from seed of C. hederifolium and I'm wondering 
about the appropriate depth to plant them outside in where I hope they 
will naturalize and thrive.  I have had tubers of C. hederifolium and C. 
Coum that froze to mush during the past winter's cold snaps in my USDA 
6a climate.  These sadly departed geophytes were planted with the top of 
the tuber barely covered, and were located in a bed of Meehania cordata, 
with evergreen branches strewn atop the bed to improve their chances of 
surviving winter cold. 

The tubers range in size from about 7-15 mm in diameter.  I fear that if 
I plant them too deeply, there will be problems with emergence of 
foliage (and flowers) that will result in the demise of the tuber.  Can 
anyone provide practical recommendations that will help me as I'm 
crouching in my border?

Jonathan Knisely
New Haven, CT


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:13:51 -0400
From: "John T Lonsdale" <john@johnlonsdale.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth
To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <00f901c7fbb2$0016c070$6801a8c0@XPS400>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi,

I'm a little surprised to hear that neither coum nor hederifolium survived
last winter.  You are colder than us here in SE Pennsylvania, but not so
much more that I'd expect that to happen.  Cold hardiness is very much
influenced by drainage - was the ground these tubers were in at all soggy?
Freezing and thawing in less than perfectly well-drained ground could cause
you to lose plants that would be hardy with perfect drainage in a garden a
zone colder.

On our S facing perfectly drained hillside I have a number of hederifolium
that are 25-50% exposed to the air - they look like flying saucers that have
crashed into the slope and stuck half-way in.  They are up to 8" diameter -
but they come through the winters just fine.

I'd try to optimize the situation and drainage - and then you can certainly
plant deeper as well if you want, as long as whatever is on top drains
perfectly then the flowers and leaves will find a way through.  You could
put up to 6" of pure gravel on top of them without issue - but don't create
a sump for water to gather on top of the tubers.

Good luck!

J.

John T Lonsdale PhD
407 Edgewood Drive,
Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA

Home: 610 594 9232
Cell: 484 678 9856
Fax: 801 327 1266

Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/

USDA Zone 6b




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roy Herold <rherold@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <775569.19646.qm@web62409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Jonathan,

In my own Zone 5B/6A garden , I plant them with the tops of the tubers a couple of inches deep. More is okay, less is bad. Hederifolium puts out roots from the top and sides of the tuber, unlike coum and the like which have roots on the bottom surface only. Don't worry, the foliage and flowers will make it up through most anything. I've rescued tubers from seeds that germinated six inches deep in a pot, and tiny filament-like leaves somehow make it to the surface.

I have planted Cyclamen hederifolum all over my garden, and they appear to be happy in some spots, and a disaster in others. The best locations seem to be on a north facing slope under a japanese maple, and on top of the septic tank (a little extra warmth?). The ants seem to find good locations, too, and volunteers are thriving in some very unlikely spots. In addition to hed, coum, cilicium, and purparascens seem to be the best for naturalizing in this way, and love coarse gravel as a seed bed. It always pains me to run the lawnmower over the coums in the lawn, but the ants drag them out there, too.

One final tip is to try to find a spot that doesn't get any direct sun in the winter. Sunlight makes the normal freeze/thaw cycles in NE even worse.

Good luck with your planting. My own goal is to get pseudibericum going outside one of these days. It was happy in an unheated cold frame last winter, so should be worth a try.

--Roy

NW of Boston
Snow cover? Hah! Unreliable at best...
C. rohlfsianum just coming into bloom...

----- Original Message ----
From: Jonathan Knisely <Jonathan.Knisely@yale.edu>
To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:50:08 PM
Subject: [pbs] Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth

I have tubers I grew from seed of C. hederifolium and I'm wondering 
about the appropriate depth to plant them outside in where I hope they 
will naturalize and thrive.  I have had tubers of C. hederifolium and C. 
Coum that froze to mush during the past winter's cold snaps in my USDA 
6a climate.  These sadly departed geophytes were planted with the top of 
the tuber barely covered, and were located in a bed of Meehania cordata, 
with evergreen branches strewn atop the bed to improve their chances of 
surviving winter cold. 

The tubers range in size from about 7-15 mm in diameter.  I fear that if 
I plant them too deeply, there will be problems with emergence of 
foliage (and flowers) that will result in the demise of the tuber.  Can 
anyone provide practical recommendations that will help me as I'm 
crouching in my border?

Jonathan Knisely
New Haven, CT
_______________________________________________
pbs mailing list
pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php
http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/





------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:33:11 -0400
From: "John T Lonsdale" <john@johnlonsdale.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth
To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <00fa01c7fbb4$b37df550$6801a8c0@XPS400>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Roy,

Just FYI - C. pseudibericum grows well outside here and is seeding around
gently in the garden, so is certainly worth a try outside.

Best,

John

John T Lonsdale PhD
407 Edgewood Drive,
Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA

Home: 610 594 9232
Cell: 484 678 9856
Fax: 801 327 1266

Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/

USDA Zone 6b






------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:02:45 -0700
From: "Diana Chapman" <rarebulbs@suddenlink.net>
Subject: [pbs] South American Bulbs
To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <001401c7fbb8$d4b73840$ed396f4b@DJ9SK221>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

Dear All:

For those within reach of the San Francisco Bay Area, I will be giving a 
presentation on November 19, 2007, entitled "Treasures of the Andes:  Bulbs 
of South America" cosponsored by the San Francisco Botanical Garden Society 
and the California Horticultural Society.  The time is 7:45pm, place is San 
Francisco County Fair Building (Hall of Flowers), 9th Avenue & Lincoln way, 
San Francisco, CA.  The talk is preceded by a stroll around Strybing 
Arboretum and Botanical Gardens at 4:00pm, then dinner at a nearby 
restaurant.  You don't have to be a member to attend.

I will be taking a selection of bulbs for sale at prices reduced from the 
catalogue, and, hopefully, some that are not presently listed.  There is a 
drawing, to which I am contributing a small Pamianthe peruviana.

I hope some members can make it to the meeting.  The walk around the 
Arboretum and the dinner gives everyone an opportunity to meet.

Diana
Telos Rare Bulbs 



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:18:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: aaron floden <aaron_floden@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <105120.40590.qm@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hello, 

 I had C.pseudibericum winter in Kansas for three
years. It started as a single seedling from the
Archibalds highest altitude collection after I dumped
the two year old un-germinated pot. The tuber was
quarter-sized after 3 years and is now planted in the
garden here in TN. Purpurascens was by far the best in
Kansas, and seems content here so far also.
Hederifolium was always iffy in Kansas living about 2
years on average. Coum I got to bloom once, but always
died in early spring or summer.

  Aaron Floden
 Knoxville, TN


--- John T Lonsdale <john@johnlonsdale.net> wrote:

> Just FYI - C. pseudibericum grows well outside here
> and is seeding around
> gently in the garden, so is certainly worth a try
> outside.
>


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:33:54 -0700
From: Lee Poulsen <wpoulsen@pacbell.net>
Subject: [pbs] Amsterdam bulbing
To: PBS Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <9f5cb79dc3c98101a99aea484c6804f3@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

I know it's the wrong season to see all the wonderful flower displays, 
but next week I'll be in Amsterdam on business and was wondering if 
there is anything at this time of the year bulb or plant related that 
might be worth seeing (and possibly dragging non-plantophile co-workers 
along to see)? Or even non-plant-related things that would be worth 
going to see when we're not otherwise occupied with work?

Thanks for any suggestions.
--Lee Poulsen
Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:11:02 -0400
From: Arnold Trachtenberg <arnold@nj.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Amsterdam bulbing
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46F2E1E6.8050807@nj.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Lee:

Your forgetting the possible displays of fall blooming bulbs like Crocus 
and Colchicums.

Arnold


------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:14:14 -0400
From: "Dell Sherk" <dells@voicenet.com>
Subject: [pbs] Pacific BX 153 CLOSED
To: "'Adam Fikso'" <adam14113@ameritech.net>, "'c'"
	<CathyCraigEA@hotmail.com>,	"'Macfarlane'" <macfarla@almaden.ibm.com>,
	"'Mark'" <Antennaria@aol.com>, "'Mark Wilcox'" <marque219@yahoo.com>,
	"Pat Colville" <Pat.Colville@JHResearchUSA.com>,	"PBS list"
	<pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>,	"The Masterson Family" <masterson4@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20070920211427.DB4AB4C01D@lists.ibiblio.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Dear All,



Everything is claimed in this lot. Packages should go out after the weekend.



Enjoy,

Dell



Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:42:36 +0100
From: "John Grimshaw" <j.grimshaw@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Amsterdam bulbing
To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <001901c7fc12$37ed2dd0$0201a8c0@John>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

Lee - there are all sorts of things to look at in Amsterdam... some of them 
are very bulbous.

Much depends on how long you have for exploring. If you could get to the 
flower auction  in Aalsmeer that would be an interesting experience. Funnily 
enough I never went to an actual auction while I lived in Holland, but used 
to love visiting the wholesale florists and plant-sellers who occupy part of 
the cavernous auction building - see http://www.cultra.nl/. There you get a 
concentrated experience of the Dutch horticultural industry as they sell 
something of everything that passes through the auction to smaller 
traders/florists etc who don't need 10,000 roses all at once. You can just 
walk in and prowl about but you need an account to buy anything.

What they offer of course depends on season but is always amazing. I once 
was able to buy bunches (50 in each) of Oncocyclus irises, imported from 
Israel.

In Amsterdam itself the floating flower market is interesting, even if 
touristy, & there are a couple of bulb sellers. To those accustomed to the 
dullness of an English or American florist's offerings a visit to even a 
local Dutch florist's shop is a revelation.

For a non plant-related activity Amsterdam is of course full of cultural 
interest, which could be combined with a horticultural theme. You could go 
to the Rijksmuseum to study flowers in old flower pieces - not to mention 
the Rembrandts etc. There are some surprising plant images in the Van Gogh 
Museum too. For food I would recommend an Indonesian meal - the Dutch East 
Indies connection is quite strong. I used to go to Sampurna, an Indonesian 
restaurant  (http://www.sampurna.com/) by the flower market and have a rijsttafel - 
a selection of all sorts of small dishes of delicious things.

Let us know how you get on!

John Grimshaw

Dr John M. Grimshaw
Sycamore Cottage
Colesbourne
Nr Cheltenham
Gloucestershire GL53 9NP





------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:00:44 +0200
From: Bulbargence <dejager@bulbargence.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C3192AAC.36D3%dejager@bulbargence.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="ISO-8859-1"

 Roy,
Allthough I am in a much milder climat  (we get frost down to -8? 18F)  I
never put  more  then 2-3 cm (1") of soil on it. Otherwise  the tubesr make
a kind of  "stem" to get to the surface. If any doubt put a good layer of
mulch, compost etc on it
I agree with John that C pseudibericum  is a  hardy and and most
recommendable species.  I grow it here like C hederifolium, but   a dark
pink  mid winter flowering
Greetings


Lauw de Jager
http://www.bulbargence.com/
South of France (zone 8 Olivier)
Coord. Geogr.(GPS): 43?42' 43" N     4? 32' 12" E


> C. pseudibericum grows well outside here and is seeding around
> gently in the garden, so is certainly worth a try outside.





------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:08:00 +0200
From: Bulbargence <dejager@bulbargence.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Amsterdam bulbing
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C3192C60.36D5%dejager@bulbargence.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="ISO-8859-1"

Lee,
I recommend you to go to the Aalsmeer flower market  (a very early morning
visit, well organised for tourists), nobody of your  group will be
disappointed.  For more specialised  visits  go to  Lisse and see the HOBAHO
or CNB  bulbtrade center, there are always displays of flowers and of course
million of bulbs (especially on a Monday).
Just check out on the Keukenhof, Lisse, they  have now often something going
on there  out of the  spring season
Greetings  
Lauw de Jager
http://www.bulbargence.com/
South of France (zone 8 Olivier)
Coord. Geogr.(GPS): 43?42' 43" N     4? 32' 12" E





 I know it's the wrong season to see all the wonderful flower displays,
> but next week I'll be in Amsterdam on business and was wondering if
> there is anything at this time of the year bulb or plant related that
> might be worth seeing (and possibly dragging non-plantophile co-workers
> along to see)? Or even non-plant-related things that would be worth
> going to see when we're not otherwise occupied with work?





------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:03:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roy Herold <rherold@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Cyclamen hederifolium planting depth
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <472058.83515.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Lauw,

In my experience I have never seen C. hederifolium form any sort of trunk or stem as you describe. I have always seen the flower and leaf stems go out horizontally for some distance before heading for the surface. In pots, I always get a ring of leaves and flowers around the the edge. In the ground, the effect is like a wreath, with a hole in the middle. Later season leaves sometimes fill this in a bit.

On the other hand, C. graecum is one of the types that grows up, not out. In this species, formation of a trunk is to be expected. I have some elderly tubers, nearly 20 years old, with trunks close to three inches long. The root structure on graecum is radically different from hederifolum, with big, thick, possibly contractile roots only on the bottom of the tuber. My biggest difficulty in growing them is to find a pot that is deep enough to handle the tuber (~4" diameter), the floral trunks as described, and six inch long roots that resemble pencils. Usually the roots wind up getting folded over. I recall an article in the Cyclamen Journal that described graecums found in nature with trunks over ten inches long. All perfectly normal!

--Roy
NW of Boston

----- Original Message ----

 Roy,
Allthough I am in a much milder climat  (we get frost down to -8? 18F)  I
never put  more  then 2-3 cm (1") of soil on it. Otherwise  the tubesr make
a kind of  "stem" to get to the surface. If any doubt put a good layer of
mulch, compost etc on it






------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:47:22 +0000
From: Darren Sage <darrensage100@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pbs] Amsterdam bulbing
To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W24CFD8D2F52994771479CAE0BB0@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"

Hi Lee

I am from the UK, although I now live in Mexico, and they have an early autumn it seems over there.  So I expect you are going to see autumn flowering bulbs like various autumn crocuses and nerines.  Not sure if there are any shows though.  We will need our dutch friends to answer that one.  I will copy this to some of mine.

Darren



> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> From: wpoulsen@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:33:54 -0700> Subject: [pbs] Amsterdam bulbing> > I know it's the wrong season to see all the wonderful flower displays, > but next week I'll be in Amsterdam on business and was wondering if > there is anything at this time of the year bulb or plant related that > might be worth seeing (and possibly dragging non-plantophile co-workers > along to see)? Or even non-plant-related things that would be worth > going to see when we're not otherwise occupied with work?> > Thanks for any suggestions.> --Lee Poulsen> Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

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