Jamie, I'm so amazed and happy at your response to this post. When I wrote that post, I wondered if I might be wandering once again into such arcane territory that I would be putting people to sleep. I'm really astonished that not only is there someone out there who understands exactly what I'm saying, but also knows the issues well enough to reflect sensibly on them and add even more to this fascinating story. The local paper, the Washington Post, runs a weekly piece called Style Invitational. It works this way: a topic is stated, and people are invited to write in and complete the topic according to certain guidelines. Almost every week there will be instances where there will be multiple identical responses. Great minds think alike... But I never thought I would get a lucid response when I started to throw around some of the most gnarly peony names in the books. What a group this PBS forum is! Now I have some questions and comments on your post, Jamie. It's good to learn that Paeonia x chamaeleon germinates quickly. Here's the question: does it germinate in epigeal or hypogeal fashion? The parentage you gave for 'Athena' is slightly different than the one I am used to seeing. What I have read is this, which is more probable than the one you gave (and rightly doubted!): lactiflora x [officinalis x (mlokosewitschii x macrophylla)]. I'm not aware of any successful crosses between Paeonia officinalis and P. mlokosewitschii. Are there any? I went back to the wiki to see your image of 'Athena' but it's not there on the peony page and I didn't see it in /files either. Perhaps you can post it again? In a sense I'm glad that it was not there: now it is easier to believe that two people have independently traveled down this little known path! I have a gardening friend who shares many of my gardening interests and is if anything more acquisitive than I am. She is convinced that we are brother and sister separated at birth. I'll have to tell her that we evidently have another brother we didn't know about. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where it’s time to dig out more peony catalogs! My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/ Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/