From msittner@mcn.org Tue Apr 3 02:00:50 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070402223031.01690040@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Pelargonium barklyi Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 22:35:45 -0700 Hi, In the process of splitting up the Pelargonium wiki page since it was getting really long, I added some pictures of Pelargonium barklyi. It's just now blooming for me. We saw it in Namaqualand in September. I recognized the leaves since they are so distinctive, but the flowers were so far away from the leaves twining through a shrub that there was no way a picture could capture the whole plant. I haven't tried planting any in my garden assuming it might be too wet in winter where I live, but it's a nice pot plant I think. I really like the leaves. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/PelargoniumSpeciesOne#barklyi By the way our wiki Pelargonium page (before it was split up) was one of the ten most popular genera pages, no doubt because of all the work David Victor did adding so many pictures of flowers and leaves and such great text of some many different geophytic species. Mary Sue From vicm527@verizon.net Tue Apr 3 14:24:22 2007 Message-Id: <46129BC5.5000009@verizon.net> From: VicM Subject: Gloxinia sylvatica Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:24:05 -0400 Hi Fred, The Gloxinia (Seemannia) sylvatica you will receive has been growing here in Florida, zone 9b. It grows in half-day (morning sun), blooms in the late fall and goes somewhat dormant in summer. It gets water all year. I have, however, dried some rhizomes off in summer with no problems. I have been told it is hardy to zone 8, but the year before last we had a light touch of frost and a few of the leaves around the outside browned. The rhizomes were fine. It sends out runners and multiplies like mad. Lynn Makela Tampa, Florida From garden@tiscali.co.uk Wed Apr 4 09:29:12 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: Skunk Cabbages again Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 09:21:39 -0400 About a month ago there was an exchange here about skunk cabbage, Symplocarpus foetidus, and John Grimshaw mentioned the excellent dark purple form grown at Kew. Well, I've finally found my slide of it taken in 1975, scanned it and I've posted it on my blog in a general piece about this plant. http://transatlanticplantsman.typepad.com/transatlantic_plantsman/2007/04/skunk_cabbage_t.html And it seems that there may actually be six species, though some names may by synonyms. Still working on it... Graham Rice Milford, PA (more snow and 20F forecast) and Northamptonshire, UK From carlobal@netzero.net Wed Apr 4 09:48:55 2007 Message-Id: <20070404.064813.18186.1532496@webmail36.lax.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: Skunk Cabbages again Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:47:21 GMT Graham's picture of Kew's purple form of skunk cabbage will certainly make even the squeamish reconsider the plant. In the wild there are forms that are relatively dark, but Kew's is quite spectacular and uniform. It'd be a LOVELY addition to my bog.... Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2049) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com From aaron_floden@yahoo.com Wed Apr 4 10:54:48 2007 Message-Id: <415500.27063.qm@web34313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: aaron floden Subject: Skunk Cabbages again Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT) The forma variegata is pictured in the Variegated Plants Vol.1 carried by Yinger at Asiatica. It has a wide gold margin and looks very Hosta-like. Probably available at high prices in Japan. Aaron Floden Kansas --- Graham Rice wrote: > About a month ago there was an exchange here about > skunk cabbage, > Symplocarpus foetidus, and John Grimshaw mentioned > the excellent dark > purple form grown at Kew. ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Wed Apr 4 13:11:36 2007 Message-Id: <006c01c776dc$4c884470$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Skunk Cabbages again Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 18:11:33 +0100 Looking at Graham's pictures I am again impressed by the dark beauty of the Kew Symplocarpus - I had not realised that this was unusual coloration for the species, but now I think back to when I saw it the wild in Massachusetts it was typically green with heavy speckling, not that rich purple-brown colour. Is the dark form uncommon in the wild? The authors of The Genera of Araceae are clear that there are only 3 species in the genus, so the IPNI names should probably be regarded as synonyms. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Rice" > About a month ago there was an exchange here about skunk cabbage, > Symplocarpus foetidus, and John Grimshaw mentioned the excellent dark > purple form grown at Kew. > > Well, I've finally found my slide of it taken in 1975, scanned it and > I've posted it on my blog in a general piece about this plant. > http://transatlanticplantsman.typepad.com/transatlantic_plantsman/2007/04/skunk_cabbage_t.html > > And it seems that there may actually be six species, though some > names may by synonyms. Still working on it... > From paige@hillkeep.ca Wed Apr 4 14:29:59 2007 Message-Id: From: "Pacific Rim" Subject: Brief announcement: Antoine Hoog's rare bulbs Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:28:27 -0700 Dear bulb lovers: My nursery is no longer the exclusive agent in North America for the rare bulbs and plants grown by Antoine Hoog. We ended it this spring, with great regret, because, as many of you know, my nursery has cut back drastically on shipping, for family reasons, and I can't predict whether that will change. Antoine is now free to sell to others in North America, and has begun to do so. Please understand that he is not set up for small, retail orders. He prefers to have a limited number of relatively substantial wholesale customers. Antoine comes from a long line of eminent Dutch plantsmen; his stock is special not only for its quality but also for the care with which he keeps track of history, provenance and taxonomy -- a care that I have tried to emulate. I continue to grow several thousand taxa in small quantities, many of them originally from Antoine. This spring we've been planting a lot of stock straight into our display gardens. Best to all Paige Paige Woodward paige@hillkeep.ca www.hillkeep.ca From odysseybulbs@earthlink.net Wed Apr 4 14:59:34 2007 Message-Id: From: "Russell Stafford, Odyssey Bulbs" Subject: Skunk Cabbages again Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 14:59:18 -0400 There's still so much that could be done with selection of our native plants.... Russell At 09:47 AM 4/4/2007, you wrote: >Graham's picture of Kew's purple form of skunk cabbage will certainly >make even the squeamish reconsider the plant. In the wild there are >forms that are relatively dark, but Kew's is quite spectacular and >uniform. It'd be a LOVELY addition to my bog.... Russell Stafford Odyssey Bulbs PO Box 382 South Lancaster, MA 01561 508-335-8106 From rherold@yahoo.com Wed Apr 4 20:23:51 2007 Message-Id: <46144193.1020703@yahoo.com> From: Roy Herold Subject: Skunk Cabbages again Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 20:23:47 -0400 Darrell "Mr Epimedium" Probst found a variegated skunk cabbage in the woods of Pennsylvania a number of years (6 to 8?) ago. It was similar to the one described, with a wide gold band, and was definitely reminiscent of a hosta. He said it was visible from the road, and he had driven by it a number of times before spotting it. The last I heard it had been shipped to a nursery in North Carolina, never to be seen again.... --Roy NW of Boston Global cooling update: an inch or two of wet snow fell on the Symplocarpus blooms this afternoon... aaron floden wrote: > > The forma variegata is pictured in the Variegated > Plants Vol.1 carried by Yinger at Asiatica. > > It has a wide gold margin and looks very Hosta-like. > Probably available at high prices in Japan. > > Aaron Floden > Kansas > From voltaire@islandnet.com Thu Apr 5 01:05:27 2007 Message-Id: <2D4D0D88-47E5-4544-89F4-32EF7A17A31D@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Erythronium DNA Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 22:05:10 -0700 About three years ago, Ben Zonneveld began measuring the DNA of erythroniums. He supplied a list of species he lacked and asked for leaves so he could weigh the DNA. I am curious about his results. Have they been published? A friend who supplied leaves to Dr. Zonneveld just told me that the plant we consider to be a dwarf form of grandiflorum (the yellow one that grows on mountains), that grows at a low elevation on one small mountain on Vancouver Island is perhaps a new species. Diane Whitehead From tony@plantdelights.com Thu Apr 5 08:21:31 2007 Message-Id: <4614E9D5.6060609@plantdelights.com> From: Tony Avent Subject: Skunk Cabbages again Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 08:21:41 -0400 Roy: We did indeed house Darrell's variegated skunk cabbage for several years, but have long since returned it to him. It is a stunning plant and I can only hope it's still growing well. We had hoped that it would multiply enough for tissue culture, but the plant never produced an offset while it was in our care. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent Roy Herold wrote: > Darrell "Mr Epimedium" Probst found a variegated skunk cabbage in the > woods of Pennsylvania a number of years (6 to 8?) ago. It was similar to > the one described, with a wide gold band, and was definitely reminiscent > of a hosta. He said it was visible from the road, and he had driven by > it a number of times before spotting it. > > The last I heard it had been shipped to a nursery in North Carolina, > never to be seen again.... > > --Roy > NW of Boston > Global cooling update: an inch or two of wet snow fell on the > Symplocarpus blooms this afternoon... > > aaron floden wrote: > >> >> The forma variegata is pictured in the Variegated >> Plants Vol.1 carried by Yinger at Asiatica. >> >> It has a wide gold margin and looks very Hosta-like. >> Probably available at high prices in Japan. >> >> Aaron Floden >> Kansas >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Apr 5 11:24:17 2007 Message-Id: <000001c77796$8315eb40$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Skunk Cabbages again Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:24:28 -0400 For those of you who don't live in skunk cabbage country and are wondering what all the fuss is about (and I have to admit that I'm doing some of that wondering myself), here is a link to some images of skunk cabbage spathes photographed on March 12, 2007. At that time they were a bit past their prime and some already had soft spots. In this area, it isn't unknown to see the spathes emerge in January, so it's possible that the ones in the images are as much as two months old. The colors are strongly reminiscent of those of Sauromatum guttatum/Typhonium venosum. As you can see, some are more red than others, some more yellow, some dark and dull. Also included is an image of a germinated seed. This species seeds freely. If you want to collect seeds easily, visit the plants in late November and look for the tattered remains of the spathe, the seed cluster itself (golf ball sized or even larger) or the seeds themselves lying on the ground. The seeds are best planted immediately; most sources report that they do not store well wet or dry. Here's the link to the images: http://www.jimmckenney.com/symplocarpus_foetidus.htm Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where if I'm not mistaken the Pacific Rim skunk cabbages, the Lysichiton, are putting up inflorescences this year - just in time for the dip into the mid to upper 20s F for the next few nights. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From rdjenkins@bellsouth.net Thu Apr 5 13:44:07 2007 Message-Id: <000a01c777a9$fbde59a0$6101a8c0@JenkinsMachine> From: "rdjenkins" Subject: Skunk Cabbages again Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:42:53 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim McKenney" To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Skunk Cabbages again > For those of you who don't live in skunk cabbage country > Jim McKenney I don't live there, AFAIK, and have also never heard of another northerner, Lysichiton americanus, growing around here. Perhaps they might grow in our mountains, but I just don't know. Would love to see them in situ here or hereabouts. Any idea how much heat either of the two can stand? Robert. From totototo@telus.net Thu Apr 5 13:53:54 2007 Message-Id: <20070405175352.BBTLRX7S2D@priv-edmwaa05.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Muscari 'Blue Boy' and 'Valerie Finnis' Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 10:53:12 -0700 According to the website of the Mt. Tahoma nursery 2487 MUSCARI `BLUE BOY’ H-5” A compact hybrid with beautiful sky blue flowers on strong stems. Bred by Molly Grothaus of Lake Oswego, OR. This plant does not self sow for us. Increases from offsets. F,r,s,t. $5.00 http://www.backyardgardener.com/mttahoma/tahoma2.html My own experience is different; it has self-seeded with reasonable freedom and many of the seedlings are a dark blue, rather than the sky blue of the Real Thing. 'Blue Boy' is superficially similar to 'Valerie Finnis', but on close inspection I find it differs: shape of inflorescence: Blue Boy, something like Marge Simpson's big hair; Valerie Finnis, distinctly conical. scent: Valerie Finnis has a much more pronounced scent than Blue Boy. (You have to hold your nose quite close to the flowers to get the scent.) Because of many seedlings of Blue Boy come true in color, the 'Blue Boy' I used for these comparisons may be a self-sown seedling. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From totototo@telus.net Thu Apr 5 13:53:54 2007 Message-Id: <20070405175352.9AHUSU0VA5@priv-edmwaa05.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Trillium rivale 'Del Norte' Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 10:53:12 -0700 Does anyone know what the authentic description of Trillium rivale 'Del Norte'? The name has turned up in seedlists off and on for many years, but without description. I have a dim recollection of being told it was originally found by Wayne Roderick in Del Norte county, California, distinguished by the petals being pure white and unmarked. However, this memory is very dim and uncertain. Boyd Kline found a trillium on French Hill, in Del Norte country, that he believed to be a hybrid between T. rivale and T. ovatum. I have been growing F3+ seedlings from this for many years and suspect it may be a polyploid T. rivale, rather than a hybrid. Seedlings from my stock are being sold by Fraser's Thimble Farms as 'Del Norte' but I am not persuaded that this is a correct application of that cultivar name. Google turned up nothing useful. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Thu Apr 5 19:24:03 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Skunk Cabbages - the other parts Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:47:10 -0500 Dear All; While oohing over the range of flower(spathe) color, I am reminded more of the lovely size and boldness of the foliage which is both more obvious than the flowers and much longer lasting. This aroid does have very large round cabbage like foliage that can stay in very good shape for a long growth period. The flowers are fairly small and fleeting in comparison. Seeing a patch in full growth is very impressive; like a nice architectural Hosta it has 'presence'. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From JFlintoff@aol.com Thu Apr 5 18:27:36 2007 Message-Id: From: JFlintoff@aol.com Subject: Muscari 'Blue Boy' and 'Valerie Finnis' Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 18:27:18 EDT Rodger I supplied Mt Tahoma Nursery with bulbs of ' Blue Boy' . It was raised by the late Molly Grothaus of Lake Oswego,Oregon. She raised it from a package of seed of Muscari aucheri. It is indeed very close to 'Valery Finnis' in color but the leaves are wider ( as in M aucheri ) and it often produces imperfect "spikes" ( racemes) made so by missing or distorted florets. M ' Valery Finnis ' is I believe a seedling of M. armeniacum. 'Blue Boy ' only makes a few seed capsules here and some of the self-sown seedlings from them have been dark blue as with you. The third very similarly colored grape hyacinth is 'Jenny Robinson' (aka ' Angel's Breath' ) but derived from M. neglectum and found in the wild. It is my favorite of the trio. Jerry John Flintoff Vashon Island,Washington,USA Zone 8 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From JFlintoff@aol.com Thu Apr 5 18:35:52 2007 Message-Id: From: JFlintoff@aol.com Subject: Trillium rivale 'Del Norte' Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 18:35:46 EDT Trillium rivale 'Purple Heart ' was found by Boyd Kline and has the largest flowers of any rivale that I've encountered. Unfortunately many are the poor impostors that have been grown from seed which in no way look like the wonderful original. T rivale ' Del Norte' was also named by Boyd Kline or his former business partner Lawrence Crocker of the Siskiyou Rare Plant Nursery. It was a particularly robust pink form that multiplied rapidly. I believe it only had a few madder colored spots on the corolla unlike 'Purple Heart'. Jerry John Flintoff Vashon Island,Washington,USA Zone 8 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From MLGD@aol.com Fri Apr 6 08:37:41 2007 Message-Id: <8C9465F7ED46C69-14D0-6126@WEBMAIL-RE04.sysops.aol.com> From: mlgd@aol.com Subject: New member and questions about Eastern Cape Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:37:38 -0400 Hello Crawford, It looks like you're smitten with South Africa just as my family is. We go to Cape Town every year and several years ago we bought a house there since we seemed to be "commuting" to Cape Town. So, I'm warning you... travel to South Africa and South AFrican plants can become addicting! I've made my garden in South Africa an indigenous garden...it's now about 90% indigenous South African plants....and I grow lots of South African plants in my gardens at home in Pennsylvania and indoors, too. Very addicting! We usually go to South Africa during December/January for the same reason you're looking to escape Sweden's winter and because that's when I have off from teaching at York College in Pennsylvania. Each year we always try to add an "adventure" to our trip. Two years ago we went on a 10 day "family roadtrip" through several different ecotypes (though I did not emphasize this plant perspective with my grown children) as we visited and stayed at National Parks. Wonderful places to stay. We visited the Karoo Botanic Garden near Worcester and then on to the Karoo National Park. From there down to Wilderness near Knysna. New Plant Nursery--a wholesale nursery is fantastic! The Tsitsikama Forest is also wonderful. Then on to Addo National Elephant Park--this is a must! You won't only be seeing geophytes. You'll also see succulents and amazing trees and fantastic landscapes, dramatic rock formations, waterfalls, animals and all kinds of plants. The most important thing is to get out and "be" in the landscape whenever you can. HIKE. These are not the "ordinary" European or American tourist destinations...but this trip certainly were one of our favorite adventures. This path will get you into the Eastern Cape then you could go on from there. Where can I find out more about Cameron's "advanced" trip? I'd be interested in that. I'm not just a "bulb" person as I'm sure most of us are not. Any unusual plant tempts me and every plant, dull or fantastic, gives me something to think about. South African plants are my passion. I'm a neophyte to this site too, so I hope this response is not too wordy, personal, or non-geophyte oriented for this discussion. Marilyn -----Original Message----- From: Neil.Crawford@volvo.com To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 7:41 AM Subject: [pbs] New member and questions about Eastern Cape -----Original Message----- From: Crawford Neil Sent: den 26 mars 2007 13:30 To: 'pbs@lists.ibiblio.org' Subject: New member and questions about Eastern Cape Hi all, First I'd like to introduce myself, I'm a Swedish plant lover, married to Ragnhild who loves botany. We have a big garden full of plants, unfortunately we don't have time to look after it properly, plenty of bulbs and geophytes, although I'm afraid nothing very special. We have Leucojum vernum beginning to flower now, later on we have some nice cypripediums, but I don't think they count here, hepatica is another doubtful sort that we have. Other bulbs we have are Hemerocallis, various Irises, and the usual Narcissus,crocus and colchium. Our pacific bulbs are mostly limited to the ones we see on holiday trips, which is really why I'm writing. We had a wonderful holiday on the Western Cape last September, we visited Darling, the West coast NP,then the Bokkeveld plateau, Glenlyon, Papkuilsfontein and Matjesfontein, after that we did Kirstenbosch, Red Hill and the Cape of Good Hope NP. Next stop was the Overberg at Napier, where we visited DeHoop, and Stephen Smuts a local botanist showed us lots of plants. Finally we drove back to Cape Town via Hottentots-Holland where we saw more plants, which Mary-Sue, Cameron and Rhoda have helped us to identify (that was when I found the pbs-list) To top all this we went to Kruger and saw the big five. We really want to do it again, but this time we'd like to go during Febrary, because that's a dismal time in Sweden, and I've heard (from Camerons site) that the summer rainfall flora is good on the Eastern Cape. So we've been planning a trip from Cape Town, through the Overberg again, so we can stay with Stephen, then Wilderness NP or Knysna, stay some time at St. Francis bay (near Port Elizabeth) and then perhaps do a trip up to the Somerset East, Hogsback, Cathcart sort of area. Wainek flower preserve and Barrydale, are places I've read about. We did think of going with Cameron, but I think it's too advanced for us, we want to relax, and even common plants in South Africa, are marvellous to us, so we don't need to hunt for rare plants. We've been reading Tony Avents trip report with Cameron, which has been very helpful, we'd like to do a sort of "light" version of it. What I'd like help with, is what we mustn't miss on a trip from the Cape to Port Elizabeth? We haven't booked anything yet, so if anyone knows a good plant site along the way, or on the Cape, I'd love to hear, I hope this is a suitable subject for the list, as I know many of you do trips to SA to see geophytes. Best regards Neil Crawford _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. From msittner@mcn.org Fri Apr 6 11:04:36 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070406075551.03320b80@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:04:08 -0700 Hi, I'm still trying to finish the thumbnails and consolidate them on pages and was working on Arum which I know very little about. Kew has listed Arum concinnatum as the accepted name for Arum italicum var. maroratum and Arum italicum subvar. marmoratum. Giorgio has added a picture of plants he calls Arum italicum ssp. marmoratum to our wiki. Since he lives in Italy where it grows perhaps the name is uses is accepted in Italy if not by Kew. Do any of you Aroid fans have advice about how we should label it on the wiki. Thanks. Mary Sue From Kew: Accepted Name: Arum concinnatum Schott, Icon. Aroid.: t. 39 (1857). Family: Araceae Homotypic Synonyms: Arum italicum var. marmoratum (Schott) Nyman, Consp. Fl. Eur.: 755 (1882). Arum italicum subvar. marmoratum (Schott) Engl., Pflanzenr., IV, 23F: 85 (1920). From carlobal@netzero.net Fri Apr 6 11:11:57 2007 Message-Id: <20070406.081100.833.1488503@webmail34.lax.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 15:10:31 GMT Mary Sue, While not necessarily infallible, the RHS lists it as a cultivar... Arum italicum 'Marmoratum' Carlo Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2049) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com From garden@tiscali.co.uk Fri Apr 6 11:36:14 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 11:27:46 -0400 In his 1993 monograph, Peter Boyce treats A. concinnatum as a separate species, as does the RHS (http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder.asp). Also, Peter Boyce has recently revised his opinion on A. italicum, concluding that subsp. italicum and subsp. neglectum cannot be separated. I'm sending Mary Sue a pdf of his article in The Plantsman magazine (March 2006) in which he explains this. Unfortunatately, I cannot make it available to all as this is copyright material and I only have permission for limited private circulation. 'Marmoratum' is now treated as a cultivar. Graham Rice Milford, PA (22F, snowing steadily) http://TransatlanticPlantsman.com >Hi, > >I'm still trying to finish the thumbnails and consolidate them on pages and >was working on Arum which I know very little about. Kew has listed Arum >concinnatum as the accepted name for Arum italicum var. maroratum and Arum >italicum subvar. marmoratum. Giorgio has added a picture of plants he >calls Arum italicum ssp. marmoratum to our wiki. Since he lives in Italy >where it grows perhaps the name is uses is accepted in Italy if not by Kew. >Do any of you Aroid fans have advice about how we should label it on the >wiki. Thanks. > >Mary Sue > From Kew: >Accepted Name: Arum concinnatum Schott, Icon. Aroid.: t. 39 (1857). >Family: Araceae > >Homotypic Synonyms: > >Arum italicum var. marmoratum (Schott) Nyman, Consp. Fl. Eur.: 755 (1882). > >Arum italicum subvar. marmoratum (Schott) Engl., Pflanzenr., IV, 23F: 85 >(1920). > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From agoston.janos@citromail.hu Fri Apr 6 12:23:28 2007 Message-Id: <00b701c77867$bf5bd660$0d4afea9@gzw1jo1xwad0ctx> From: "Agoston Janos" Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 18:22:18 +0200 Hi Mary Sue, This is a difficult topic. I grow here at home A. italicum. A. italicum subsp. italicum has got yellow veining on the leaves (by Deni Bown: Aroids and Joghn E. Bryan: Bulbs I.) The form called 'Pictum' or 'Marmoratum' has got very strong white veining. It should be called: A. italicum subsp. italicum 'Pictum' (Bown?). There is a book of Hungarian Flora, which says incorrectly, that A. maculatum is the synonymon of A. italicum. A. italicum is not fully hardy here (Z5a). Other subspecies, different from subsp. italicum hasn't got veining on the leaves. That's all I know, hope this helps... Try to reach Peter boyce, hi is an expert of Aroids. If you do not know his contacts write me privately. Bye, Jani ----- Original Message ----- From: Mary Sue Ittner To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 5:04 PM Subject: [pbs] Arum Hi, I'm still trying to finish the thumbnails and consolidate them on pages and was working on Arum which I know very little about. Kew has listed Arum concinnatum as the accepted name for Arum italicum var. maroratum and Arum italicum subvar. marmoratum. Giorgio has added a picture of plants he calls Arum italicum ssp. marmoratum to our wiki. Since he lives in Italy where it grows perhaps the name is uses is accepted in Italy if not by Kew. Do any of you Aroid fans have advice about how we should label it on the wiki. Thanks. Mary Sue From Kew: Accepted Name: Arum concinnatum Schott, Icon. Aroid.: t. 39 (1857). Family: Araceae Homotypic Synonyms: Arum italicum var. marmoratum (Schott) Nyman, Consp. Fl. Eur.: 755 (1882). Arum italicum subvar. marmoratum (Schott) Engl., Pflanzenr., IV, 23F: 85 (1920). _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From totototo@telus.net Fri Apr 6 12:39:18 2007 Message-Id: <20070406163916.41C3J20VXA@priv-edmwaa06.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Trillium rivale 'Del Norte' Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:38:35 -0700 On 5 Apr 07, at 18:35, JFlintoff@aol.com wrote: > Trillium rivale 'Purple Heart ' was found by Boyd Kline and has > the > largest flowers of any rivale that I've encountered. Unfortunately > many are the poor impostors that have been grown from seed which in no > way look like the wonderful original. > > T rivale ' Del Norte' was also named by Boyd Kline or his former > business partner Lawrence Crocker of the Siskiyou Rare Plant Nursery. > It was a particularly robust pink form that multiplied rapidly. I > believe it only had a few madder colored spots on the corolla unlike > 'Purple Heart'. "Particularly robust" That's the distinguishing characteristic, at least so it appears to my small mind. Sounds like 'Del Norte' is the right name for the robust monster I have. The seedlings don't come true, btw. Some are pink, others white, others white w. red speckles. But they all share in the robust character. I wonder if Crocker & Kline applied the name 'Del Norte' to seedlings as well as the original plant, or just divisions. Anybody know? -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From odysseybulbs@earthlink.net Fri Apr 6 12:58:11 2007 Message-Id: From: "Russell Stafford, Odyssey Bulbs" Subject: Brief commercial message Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:58:10 -0400 Fellow list members, We have just posted our full 2007 catalog, which does our preseason catalog about 100 items better. I invite you to view it at www.odysseybulbs.com. Russell Russell Stafford Odyssey Bulbs PO Box 382 South Lancaster, MA 01561 508-335-8106 From dejager@bulbargence.com Fri Apr 6 13:50:52 2007 Message-Id: From: Bulbargence Subject: Visit to Boston area Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 19:50:36 +0200 Dear all, The end of this month I will be visiting the Boston MA area with my family. As being interested in bulbs and gardens is there any thing in that area which I should not miss. We are essentially on non-plants business, but I could persuade my travel mates to make a plant deviation. Please contact me privately. Greetings Lauw de Jager http://www.bulbargence.com South of France (zone 8 Olivier) From agoston.janos@citromail.hu Fri Apr 6 14:07:23 2007 Message-Id: <002e01c77876$47f48630$0d4afea9@gzw1jo1xwad0ctx> From: "Agoston Janos" Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:06:20 +0200 Wow, good to know... ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham Rice To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Arum In his 1993 monograph, Peter Boyce treats A. concinnatum as a separate species, as does the RHS (http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder.asp). Also, Peter Boyce has recently revised his opinion on A. italicum, concluding that subsp. italicum and subsp. neglectum cannot be separated. I'm sending Mary Sue a pdf of his article in The Plantsman magazine (March 2006) in which he explains this. Unfortunatately, I cannot make it available to all as this is copyright material and I only have permission for limited private circulation. 'Marmoratum' is now treated as a cultivar. Graham Rice Milford, PA (22F, snowing steadily) http://TransatlanticPlantsman.com >Hi, > >I'm still trying to finish the thumbnails and consolidate them on pages and >was working on Arum which I know very little about. Kew has listed Arum >concinnatum as the accepted name for Arum italicum var. maroratum and Arum >italicum subvar. marmoratum. Giorgio has added a picture of plants he >calls Arum italicum ssp. marmoratum to our wiki. Since he lives in Italy >where it grows perhaps the name is uses is accepted in Italy if not by Kew. >Do any of you Aroid fans have advice about how we should label it on the >wiki. Thanks. > >Mary Sue > From Kew: >Accepted Name: Arum concinnatum Schott, Icon. Aroid.: t. 39 (1857). >Family: Araceae > >Homotypic Synonyms: > >Arum italicum var. marmoratum (Schott) Nyman, Consp. Fl. Eur.: 755 (1882). > >Arum italicum subvar. marmoratum (Schott) Engl., Pflanzenr., IV, 23F: 85 >(1920). > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jshields@indy.net Fri Apr 6 14:14:54 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20070406141359.03500008@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Fwd: Postage and inspected seeds Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:14:51 -0400 Please note the following and report any unfortunate incidents to the lady mentioned at the USPS. >Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:16:06 -0400 >From: Joyce Fingerut >Subject: [ALPINE-L] Postage and inspected seeds >To: ALPINE-L@NIC.SURFNET.NL > > >Hello seed-lovers - > >I have been in touch with the person at the USPS who is in charge of the >International Network Operations, regarding the problems of people being >charged extra to forward their seeds from the APHIS inspection stations to >their homes. Cheri DeMoss has said: >>Please forward any emails or examples you have concerning this problem. >>I will make some calls and try to get to the bottom of this issue for you. > >While I have emails about a few of the problems that have been discussed >on Alpine-L (including a couple that have been forwarded from other >lists), the last email on this subject was back in mid-February. >While it would be lovely to think that the issue has been resolved, it >could be that there are other instances that have not reached me. >Please let me know if you have encountered any demands for further >payments to cover delivery of your seeds - recently, or in the past. I >will keep personal names out of the correspondence with USPS. > >Interestingly, Ms. DeMoss reaffirmed the USPS commitment to forwarding >APHIS-inspected seeds without additional postage. >Let's see what this round brings..... > >Thanks, >Joyce > >(Has everyone but me managed to sow all their seeds?!) > >Joyce Fingerut >Stonington, Connecticut, USA >Zone 6 ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From fbiasella@watertownsavings.com Fri Apr 6 14:15:44 2007 Message-Id: <002b01c77877$7dda5350$55a7f10a@wsbmain.net> From: "Fred Biasella" Subject: Visit to Boston area Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:15:00 -0400 Hi Lauw, Provided the weather cooperates and there's no snow, the Boston Public Garden is always beautiful in the spring. The Arnold Arboretum, which is not too far from the downtown area is also quite beautiful this time of the year. Both locations have wonderful both formal and informal beds of many types of bulbous plants and some look as if they've naturalized over the years, particularly at the Arnold Arboretum. A few years back I was driving by the there and I noticed an absolutely beautiful sea of blue. I had to stop what it was. It turned out to be an incredible naturalized bed of scilla siberica that was just a happy as could be and flowering in full force. Boston is a fun city and I do hope you enjoy it. Fred Biasella Cambridge (Boston) MA USDA Zone 6b -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Bulbargence Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 1:51 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Visit to Boston area Dear all, The end of this month I will be visiting the Boston MA area with my family. As being interested in bulbs and gardens is there any thing in that area which I should not miss. We are essentially on non-plants business, but I could persuade my travel mates to make a plant deviation. Please contact me privately. Greetings Lauw de Jager http://www.bulbargence.com South of France (zone 8 Olivier) _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Apr 6 14:22:14 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:16:21 -0500 >In his 1993 monograph, Peter Boyce treats A. concinnatum as a >separate species, as does the RHS >(http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder.asp). > >Also, Peter Boyce has recently revised his opinion on A. italicum, >concluding that subsp. italicum and subsp. neglectum cannot be >separated. I'm sending Mary Sue a pdf of his article in The Plantsman >magazine (March 2006) in which he explains this. Unfortunatately, I >cannot make it available to all as this is copyright material and I >only have permission for limited private circulation. > 'Marmoratum' is now treated as a cultivar. > >Accepted Name: Arum concinnatum Schott, Icon. Aroid.: t. 39 (1857). Dear Mary Sue; I totally agree with Graham Rice. Peter Boyce is the top of the 'food chain' here. He gives convincing arguments for separation of A. concinnatum from A. italicum although both are in the same subgenus ( along with the sp. A. maculatum and A. byzantinum subg Arum and all incidentally hardy here). Calling 'Marmoratum' a cultivar in the traditional sense seems pushing it unless you consider it a seed strain, but there are so many color forms of italicum and they hybridize and vary wildly. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Fri Apr 6 15:07:38 2007 Message-Id: <002901c7787e$d6cc63c0$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 20:07:34 +0100 I have no doubt that Arum concinnatum is distinct from A. italicum, and it certainly has no connection with the forms variously known as 'Marmoratum', 'Pictum' (or however you want to write them) and a growing list of cultivars selected from the general gene pool. This is a very good example of the benefits of the horticultural group system whereby similar plants can be covered by a Group name, and exceptional cultivars distinguished by a cultivar name. I would suspect that in this case Marmoratum Group would be the preferred name for A. italicum (subsp. italicum) with strongly white-veined leaves. The name 'Pictum' has confusion potential with the autumn-flowering Arum pictum and is best avoided. Many A. italicum do not have these extensive white veins, and are either totally unmarked or with smaller patches of white or grey on the upper surface of the leaves. I think that Peter Boyce is correct to regard A. italicum as a single very variable species, but he has not yet addressed the issue of those plants with 'italicum' characters but 'maculatum' markings. My view is that most of these so-called hybrids are in fact versions of A. italicum, but study is needed. Although often recomended for the winter garden, which their foliage certainly adorns, the various A. italicum cultivars and forms are at their best about now as the foliage builds to its maximum before the inflorescences appear. My favourite is 'Nancy Lindsay', which isn't one of the better-marked clones, but the leaves emerge at this time of year a beautiful soft yellow. As they are rather big this gives a very striking effect in the garden. Of A. concinnatum forms the nicest I've seen and grown is 'Mt Ida', a selection from Crete, with speckles of grey and black on very dark green leaves. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk From voltaire@islandnet.com Fri Apr 6 15:17:28 2007 Message-Id: <87E4FB84-CA31-4C62-B4F2-DDCA06D7A285@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Trillium rivale 'Del Norte' Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:17:14 -0700 I checked all the talks given at Western Winter Study Weekends, and it is amazing how little the Siskiyous were mentioned. Even when the Siskiyou Rare Plant Nursery owners gave a talk, it was only once on Siskiyou plants. One possibility is the talk on the history and introductions of Siskiyou Rare Plants given by Baldassare Mineo, the current owner, in 1999 at the study weekend in Portland with the theme: Plant Hunting in the Tame: Alpine Nurseries and their Introductions. I will see if I can find my notes, unless someone else finds theirs first. Diane Whitehead From carlobal@netzero.net Fri Apr 6 15:19:47 2007 Message-Id: <20070406.121938.15735.1478850@webmail30.lax.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 19:18:43 GMT John, Are you using your "horticultural group system" like a grex in the orchid world? What would the naming convention be if we were to follow this suggestion? Carlo Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2049) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com From studio.pozzitaubert@tiscali.it Fri Apr 6 16:41:23 2007 Message-Id: From: Studio Pozzi Taubert Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 22:41:20 +0200 I think I haven't understood what you mean by cultivar.. but " A. marmoratum " grows wild near my house.... Here in the wild, on our hills, we can see Arum plants with plain green leaves,( the veins may be sometimes pale green), usually with a smooth surface of the leaf which is a bit tender.. they usually whiter and disappear in winter (also in this mild winter they disappeared in December and have begun sprouting two months ago) ; we can find just near them a different plant: "A. marmoratum " with marked stripes on the veins from white to yellowish ( ivory), and the leaf is stronger and not so smooth but waved. Theese leaves can survive the whole winter even with a thick layer of snow covering them, the new leaves appear later ( the plants began producing new leaves fiftheen/twenty days ago); the spathe is able to last some days more than those produced from the former plant and the colour is creamy while the first is whitish. I never saw in the woods a plant with intermedium characters, ( this of course, doesn't mean that such hybrids do not exist, but I am sure it isn't so easy they can appear and survive in wild) . We can find at last two different plants, a smaller one just high as the two above ( 40/50 cm) with white or grey-white spots on the leaves and onother plant much taller (70/80 cm) with similar spots on wider leaves, with bigger spathes and bigger tubers; we usually call theese two plants " A. maculatum ". Arum pictum, ( a nice name ), isn't acceptable in my opinion... as it is generic and doesn't explain the different patterns on the leaves. All perfectly hardy here. Hoping this can help....despite my English. Giorgio Pozzi Travedona (Varese) Northern Italy zone 8 this warm winter > I have no doubt that Arum concinnatum is distinct from A. italicum, > and it > certainly has no connection with the forms variously known as > 'Marmoratum', > 'Pictum' (or however you want to write them) and a growing list of > cultivars > selected from the general gene pool. This is a very good example of > the > benefits of the horticultural group system whereby similar plants > can be > covered by a Group name, and exceptional cultivars distinguished by a > cultivar name. I would suspect that in this case Marmoratum Group > would be > the preferred name for A. italicum (subsp. italicum) with strongly > white-veined leaves. The name 'Pictum' has confusion potential with > the > autumn-flowering Arum pictum and is best avoided. Many A. italicum > do not > have these extensive white veins, and are either totally unmarked > or with > smaller patches of white or grey on the upper surface of the leaves. > From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Apr 6 19:57:07 2007 Message-Id: <000301c778a7$52872a90$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 19:57:22 -0400 This Arum discussion is getting interesting. I grow a clump of Arum here in Maryland which has long puzzled me. It came as Arum italicum. The plants - in leaf and inflorescence - are similar in size to typical Arum italicum although the leaves are basically plain green with irregular and sparse whitish-gray specks - one of the plants in this group has black specks instead of gray specks on the leaves. The spathe is greenish gold with a slight purple flush at the base on the inside. The spadix is pale brownish yellow. What makes this group of plants (there is more than one clone) very distinct is that although they produce foliage in the autumn, that foliage always dies during the winter and is replaced by new foliage in the late winter. They have been in the garden for years and seem fully hardy. Whatever this is, it's much bigger than what I grow as Arum maculatum. Here's a view of some of them in bloom and in leaf; they are labeled Arum incertae sedis in this gallery: http://www.jimmckenney.com/arum_page.htm Does this look familiar to anyone? Now to change topics a bit: there is another Arum event about to take place here. A plant received as Arum korolkowii in 2004 is finally going to bloom. This grows in a cold frame - I think the foliage would not have a chance during the winter exposed to the air. I'll post more comments about this one later. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we escaped freeze damage last night, but tonight might be a different story. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From agoston.janos@citromail.hu Fri Apr 6 21:07:01 2007 Message-Id: <000a01c778b0$e4f558d0$0d4afea9@gzw1jo1xwad0ctx> From: "Agoston Janos" Subject: Arum Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 03:05:54 +0200 I show you my Arums: http://www.viraghagymasz.hu/temp/Arum_dioscorides_var_dioscorides.JPG http://www.viraghagymasz.hu/temp/Arum_italicum.JPG http://www.viraghagymasz.hu/temp/Arum_italicum_subsp_italicum.JPG http://www.viraghagymasz.hu/temp/Arum_italicum_subsp_italicum_Pictum.JPG http://www.viraghagymasz.hu/temp/Arum_maculatum_inmac.JPG http://www.viraghagymasz.hu/temp/Arum_maculatum_mac.JPG http://www.viraghagymasz.hu/temp/Arum_maculatum_TP.JPG http://www.viraghagymasz.hu/temp/Arum_maculatum_var.JPG http://www.viraghagymasz.hu/temp/Arum_orientale.JPG To make the problem more complicated... Unles I cannot make DNA sequencing home I really do not know if I should trust the namings, except those which were IDed by experts... ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim McKenney To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 1:57 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Arum This Arum discussion is getting interesting. I grow a clump of Arum here in Maryland which has long puzzled me. It came as Arum italicum. The plants - in leaf and inflorescence - are similar in size to typical Arum italicum although the leaves are basically plain green with irregular and sparse whitish-gray specks - one of the plants in this group has black specks instead of gray specks on the leaves. The spathe is greenish gold with a slight purple flush at the base on the inside. The spadix is pale brownish yellow. What makes this group of plants (there is more than one clone) very distinct is that although they produce foliage in the autumn, that foliage always dies during the winter and is replaced by new foliage in the late winter. They have been in the garden for years and seem fully hardy. Whatever this is, it's much bigger than what I grow as Arum maculatum. Here's a view of some of them in bloom and in leaf; they are labeled Arum incertae sedis in this gallery: http://www.jimmckenney.com/arum_page.htm Does this look familiar to anyone? Now to change topics a bit: there is another Arum event about to take place here. A plant received as Arum korolkowii in 2004 is finally going to bloom. This grows in a cold frame - I think the foliage would not have a chance during the winter exposed to the air. I'll post more comments about this one later. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we escaped freeze damage last night, but tonight might be a different story. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From msittner@mcn.org Fri Apr 6 21:18:35 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070406170404.02eade28@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Arum Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 18:18:05 -0700 Thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread to help me figure this out. I greatly appreciated reading the Peter Boyce article from The Plantsman and looking at all the leaf variations. In this article he includes subsp. neglectum with subsp. italicum under subsp. italicum . What I guess is still a little puzzling is where Arum concinnatum fits since it sounds like the cultivar Arum italicum 'Marmoratum' or Arum italium subsp. italicum 'Marmoratum' is not the same thing as Arum concinnatum (syn. Arum italicum var. marmoratum). Since Giorgio's pictures: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Arum are wild forms, they wouldn't be named cultivars so I've written it on the wiki following John Grimshaw's suggestion that this is a group referred to in Italy as 'marmoratum'. I've not capitalized it, but do I need to use quotes to convey the correct meaning? The article from Peter Boyce only mentions the two subspecies he suggests uniting. What about the subspecies pictured by Arnold, albispathum ? It is still listed by Kew. How is it different? Can anyone tell me anything about it that can be added to the wiki? Would all the other pictures on the wiki be considered Arum italicum subsp. italicum or can I just leave them as Arum italicum? I've read explanations a couple of times about the difference between species and subspecies and at the time I think I understand, but then later when I think about it I can't remember. So I must still be confused about whether when there are subspecies they are considered different from the species which can still stand alone or whether when there are subspecies all of the plants are supposed to be divided into the subspecies if you can figure it out. Thanks again to everyone. Mary Sue From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Apr 6 23:58:48 2007 Message-Id: <000301c778c9$15a84f60$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: How names work; was RE: Arum Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 23:59:01 -0400 Mary Sue wrote: ". So I must still be confused about whether when there are subspecies they are considered different from the species which can still stand alone or whether when there are subspecies all of the plants are supposed to be divided into the subspecies if you can figure it out." If I understand you question, I think I can help out a bit here. You have to keep in mind that there are really two completely different things going on here. One is the process of determining the rank of the entities in question - i.e. answering the questions "is it a species?" "is it a subspecies? "is it something else?". One appeals to science to answer this question. The other thing going on follows once the issue above is answered. That second thing answers the question "what is the correct name for this entity?" One appeals to the international rules of nomenclature to answer this question. Because science rarely provides an unambiguous answer to the first question, it follows that there will be varied applications of the rules in pursuit of the answer to the second question. The rules of nomenclature are, if not cast in stone, at least printed on paper for everyone to read and understand. Provided that everyone starts with the same assumptions, the conclusions reached should be similar if not identical. For the first process alluded to above, the process of determining rank, there are no codified rules; the whole process is based on an arcane, ever shifting body of knowledge. In fact, speaking broadly, we're at crossroads in terms of where those sands are shifting. Traditional taxonomy based on morphology is slowly being marginalized by DNA studies. Now, with that in mind, let's look at the question Mary Sue asked. In particular, let's focus on the part about "whether when there are subspecies they are considered different from the species". Perhaps I misunderstand what Mary Sue is asking here, but as I read her question it suggests that she, as so many non-systematists do, is confusing the form, the appearance of the name, with what that name expresses about the relationship of the entities named. Here's what I mean. For purposes of discussion, let's use the genus Crocus and in particular the species Crocus kotschyanus as described by Mathew in his work The Crocus. He assigns four subspecies to Crocus kotschyanus: kotschyanus, suworowianus, cappadocicus and hakkariensis. Because of the way the rules of nomenclature work, one of those subspecies has to be named kotschyanus. We would write these names Crocus kotschyanus subsp. kotschyanus, Crocus kotschyanus subsp. suworowianus, Crocus kotschyanus subsp. hakkariensis and Crocus kotschyanus subsp. cappadocicus. As gardeners, we typically shorten the written forms to Crocus kotschyanus kotschyanus, C. kotschyanus suworowianus and so on. When the name is written Crocus kotschyanus suworowianus, common sense (which in this case is misleading) prompts people to say that "suworowianus is a form of kotschyanus". That is true, but not in the sense which most people seem to mean it. You have to keep in mind that it is equally true to say that "kotschyanus is a form of kotschyanus". If for instance you want the plant known as Crocus kotschyanus kotschyanus, and you order simply Crocus kotschyanus, you have no grounds to complain if your supplier sends you any of the four subspecies: each is equally Crocus kotschyanus. (But who among us would complain about getting the subspecies suworowianus when we thought we would be getting subspecies kotschyanus?) How often have you heard gardeners say "I want the pure species, not one of the varieties" or something like that? When I hear someone say something like that, it suggests to me that they do not know what they are talking about. If the "varieties" in question are other subspecies of coordinate rank with the subspecies whose name matches the name of the species, then those other subspecies have equal claim on the specific epithet. I suppose that what those in pursuit of the "pure species" mean is that they want the subspecies whose name matches that of the species. But that subspecies is no "purer" than any of the other subspecies. Don't be fooled by the way the names are written - that's not English you're reading. In the Crocus example, subspecies suworowianus is "pure" Crocus kotschyanus, subspecies hakkariensis is "pure" Crocus kotschyanus, subspecies cappadocicus is "pure" Crocus kotschyanus, and yes, subspecies kotschyanus is "pure" Crocus kotschyanus. Mary Sue, does that address your question? A little voice is telling me "Jim, you made it worse!" I hope not. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I'm in deep denial because two inches of snow are predicted for tonight. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From carlobal@netzero.net Sat Apr 7 07:08:11 2007 Message-Id: <20070407.040748.833.1492682@webmail34.lax.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: How names work; was RE: Arum Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 11:07:47 GMT Despite Jim's wonderful explanation there is a shorter answer: If a species has subspecies, they can ALL be referred to by the specific name, BUT the more preferrable alternative, especially for people like us, is to name each to subspecific level--it's a further level of accuracy. If using subspecies, then ALL should be named to that level, or you won't know what you've got... Carlo Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2049) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com From garden@tiscali.co.uk Sat Apr 7 07:37:01 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: Arum Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 07:35:59 -0400 The key in Peter Boyces book goes like this: 1. Tuber rhizomatous 2 Tuber discoid 5 2. Spadix-appendix massivly to stoutly clavate-cylindric, subequal to more than half as long as spathe limb. A. concinnatum Spadix-appendix more or less slender-clavate, quarter to half as long as spathe limb. 3 3. Staminate flowers yellow before anthesis A. italicum Staminate flowers purple before anthesis 4 4. Spathe-limb pale green, more or less stained with brownish purple; leaves weakly hastate (NW Turkey) A. byzantinum Spathe-limb usually greenish white; leaves sagittate-hastate (throughout Europe) A. maculatum 5. etc etc He also says that A. concinnatum "has no close relatives" and describes the silver markings on its leaves as "cloudy". Whatever the nomenclatural history of these plants I think it's clear that A. italicum and A. concinnatum are not related. Did someone say they had an email address for Peter Boyce? Let's ask him about the origin this synonymy. Also, there's an Aroid mailing list, here: http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l Graham Rice Milford, PA 20F - arum foliage rather limp after 60F just a few days ago. http://TransatlanticPlantsman.com >Thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread to help me figure >this out. I greatly appreciated reading the Peter Boyce article from The >Plantsman and looking at all the leaf variations. In this article he >includes subsp. neglectum with subsp. italicum under subsp. italicum . What >I guess is still a little puzzling is where Arum concinnatum fits since it >sounds like the cultivar Arum italicum 'Marmoratum' or Arum italium subsp. >italicum 'Marmoratum' is not the same thing as Arum concinnatum (syn. Arum >italicum var. marmoratum). > >Since Giorgio's pictures: >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Arum >are wild forms, they wouldn't be named cultivars so I've written it on the >wiki following John Grimshaw's suggestion that this is a group referred to >in Italy as 'marmoratum'. I've not capitalized it, but do I need to use >quotes to convey the correct meaning? > >The article from Peter Boyce only mentions the two subspecies he suggests >uniting. What about the subspecies pictured by Arnold, albispathum ? It is >still listed by Kew. How is it different? Can anyone tell me anything about >it that can be added to the wiki? > >Would all the other pictures on the wiki be considered Arum italicum subsp. >italicum or can I just leave them as Arum italicum? I've read >explanations a couple of times about the difference between species and >subspecies and at the time I think I understand, but then later when I >think about it I can't remember. So I must still be confused about whether >when there are subspecies they are considered different from the species >which can still stand alone or whether when there are subspecies all of the >plants are supposed to be divided into the subspecies if you can >figure it out. > >Thanks again to everyone. > >Mary Sue > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From arnold@nj.rr.com Sat Apr 7 09:33:07 2007 Message-Id: <46179D1A.7040906@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Arum Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 09:31:06 -0400 Mary Sue wrote "What about the subspecies pictured by Arnold, albispathum ? It is still listed by Kew. How is it different?" I think I previously commented on the difference that I saw between the Arum italicum and Arum Italicum 'albispathum' If you look closely at the images on the Arum page on the Wiki Wiki you will see that the peduncle below the spadex is dark purple on the Arum italicum (Angelo's image) while the peduncle on the 'albispathum' is clearly light colored. Not sure if this qualifies as the 'albispathum' in the name but surely a difference between the two plants. Arnold From garden@tiscali.co.uk Sat Apr 7 09:45:35 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: Arum Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 09:45:29 -0400 subsp. albispathum Peter Boyce, again, from his key to subspecies of A. italicum: "Leaves always plain deep green, never marked in any way; spathe almost white; spadix-appendix pale yellow." Graham Rice > Mary Sue wrote "What about the subspecies pictured by Arnold, >albispathum ? It is >still listed by Kew. How is it different?" > >I think I previously commented on the difference that I saw between >the Arum italicum and Arum Italicum 'albispathum' > >If you look closely at the images on the Arum page on the Wiki Wiki >you will see that the peduncle below the spadex is dark purple on >the Arum italicum (Angelo's image) while the peduncle on the >'albispathum' is clearly light colored. > >Not sure if this qualifies as the 'albispathum' in the name but >surely a difference between the two plants. > >Arnold > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jshaw@opuntiads.com Sat Apr 7 13:11:25 2007 Message-Id: <000f01c77937$dd366440$6501a8c0@Petunia> From: "Joe Shaw" Subject: How names work; was RE: Arum Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:12:01 -0500 You have to keep in mind that there are really two completely different things going on here. One is the process of determining the rank of the entities in question - i.e. answering the questions "is it a species?" "is it a subspecies? "is it something else?". One appeals to science to answer this question. ++++++++++++++++++++ Hi Gang, I am a cafeteria taxonomiy user; I just choose the items I like and ignore other items. In such non-true-believer spirit I will make a comment about Jim M's sensible advice. One does appeal to science to determine rank. However, there are other criteria that have to do with expertise, understanding of the oranisms in "the wild," and even force of personality. The point is that science helps, but rank (species or subpecies, etc.) is sometimes not illuminated by science. In such cases, other criteria are employed that may not be firmly reproducible or testable. In some ways the problem is a manifestation of "what is a species," a question that has occupied biology for a long time. Many "know a species when they see one," but are unable to articulate a universial definition, and so on for a subspecies. My favorite writing on the subject comes from Charles Darwin, who stayed away from defining a species. He understood that species exist but he could offer not clear definition that fit all situations. Science does not now how different two organisms must be in order to belong to different species, much less different subspecies. But, science is clearly a good starting point and a place that can often provide answers--just not answers for all situations. As special, brilliant, and useful as the ICBN is, it offers no way to know if definitions of a species are correct or not. The ICBN does not police biological validity. Rather, the ICBN provides a clear path for determining if names are correctly created and applied. Lastly, I would point out that "rank" is a human concept. Biology and nature operate on levels that do not include genera or families, etc. Rank works pretty well as a tool to understand diversity, but Nature (being indifferent to our desire to classify) went about her business before ranks were created by humans, and before science was created by humans. So, coming back to names, I conclude that names work pretty much as Jim M. described. Nonetheless, there is a very real distinction between knowing a name for a subspecies, and whether or not such subspecies is "real." Cordially, Joe Conroe TX Hippeastrum hybrids coming into full bloom in the yard. From jrc@crellin.org.uk Sat Apr 7 13:17:38 2007 Message-Id: From: "JohnRCrellin" Subject: How names work; was RE: Arum Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 18:17:33 +0100 I raised this a while ago (on this forum I think !) and from memory of what the experts said then I would just suggest that you cannot necessarily assign a subspecies for all species that have them - assignment of subspecies means that significant field work has been done and the existence of sub-species demonstrated - it does not necessarily mean the species has been studied in the field in all its habitats so all possible sub-species may not have been identified and, more importantly, a particular sample of unknown provenance may not conform to any known subspecies description. Reply / forward from John Crellin www.FloralWIKI.co.uk the new bit of www.FloralImages.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of carlobal@netzero.net Sent: 07 April 2007 12:08 To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [pbs] How names work; was RE: Arum Despite Jim's wonderful explanation there is a shorter answer: If a species has subspecies, they can ALL be referred to by the specific name, BUT the more preferrable alternative, especially for people like us, is to name each to subspecific level--it's a further level of accuracy. If using subspecies, then ALL should be named to that level, or you won't know what you've got... Carlo Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2049) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From carlobal@netzero.net Sat Apr 7 13:33:16 2007 Message-Id: <20070407.103121.18186.1552810@webmail36.lax.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: How names work; was RE: Arum Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 17:30:26 GMT My point was: if the species has been assigned subspecies names...they should be used. I didn't mean to imply that a person could just make them up. Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2049) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Sun Apr 8 03:35:00 2007 Message-Id: <001d01c779b0$6911fce0$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Arum Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 08:34:56 +0100 Quite a few mesages have flown through cyberspace since this question was asked, but it needs an answer. Are you using your "horticultural group system" like a grex in the > orchid world? > > What would the naming convention be if we were to follow this suggestion? > > Carlo > It's probably easiest to copy out the notes in the RHS Plant Finder that define a group and a grex: Grex Within orchids, hybrids of the same parentage, regardless of how alike they are, are given a grex name. Individuals can be selected, given cultivar names and propagated vegetatively. For example Pleione Versailles gx 'Bucklebury', where Versailles is the grex name and 'Bucklebury' a selected cultivar. Group This is a collective name for a group of cultivars within a genus with similar characteristics. The word Group is always included and, where cited with a cultivar name, it is enclosed in brackets, for example Actaea simplex (Atropurpurea Group) 'Brunette', where 'Brunette' is a distinct cultivar in a group of purple-leaved cultivars. Another example of a Group is Rhododendron polycladum Scintillans Group. In this case R. scintillans was a species that is now botanically 'sunk' within R. polycladum, but it is still recognised horticulturally as a Group. Group names are also used for swarms of hybrids with the same parentage, for example Rhododendron Polar Bear Group. these were formerly treated as grex names, a term now used only for orchids. A single clone from the Group may be given the same cultivar name, for example, Rhododendron 'Polar Bear'. .................................... In the case of Arum italicum with strongly white-veined leaves, which have been variously known as 'Marmoratum' (= marbled) or 'Pictum' (= painted), there is clearly a vast number of seedlings that bear this characteristic. They can't all be one cultivar, but they certainly share the defining character of white veins and as such the Group concept is ideal. Since 'Pictum' is an undesirable name because of the existence of the species Arum pictum, Marmoratum is the preferred epithet and Marmoratum Group would therefore be most appropriate. Within the Arum italicum Marmoratum Group are numerous selected cultivars (some of dubious value, mind you!) e.g. 'Winter Beauty', 'White Winter' and these would be written Arum italicum (Marmoratum Group) 'White Winter'. Seedlings from the clone 'White Winter' would then just blend back into the Group, unless one were sufficiently distinct to warrant a cultivar name. My reservation about the Group concept is that in (let's call them) unparticular hands it could be used to make something seem better than it is, and can conceal a multitude of inferior plants. For example, the Actaea (formerly Cimicifuga) 'Brunette' example, the seedlings can be only just brown over green, but still count as Atropurpurea Group. The wise gardener will always go for a named selection anyway, but the less experienced might be seduced into getting something inferior that bears an important-sounding name - 'full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.' As always, careful definition of the Group, or cultivar's characteristics is very important. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk From garden@tiscali.co.uk Sun Apr 8 07:23:48 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: Arum Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 07:22:54 -0400 Well summarised, John. Excellent. If only nurseriesd wouldn't say things like: "We don't like groups, so we just call them all cultivars instead." The full notes on plants names from the RHS PlantFinder can be found here: http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantnaming.asp Meanwhile, back in the garden... 22F and a little overnight snow here in PA, my various A. italicum forms which had started to produce new leaves in 60F a week or two back are flat on the ground and frozen solid. Not good. Graham Rice http://TransatlanticPlantsman.com >Quite a few mesages have flown through cyberspace since this question was >asked, but it needs an answer. > >Are you using your "horticultural group system" like a grex in the >> orchid world? >> >> What would the naming convention be if we were to follow this suggestion? >> >> Carlo >> > > >It's probably easiest to copy out the notes in the RHS Plant Finder that >define a group and a grex: > >Grex >Within orchids, hybrids of the same parentage, regardless of how alike they >are, are given a grex name. Individuals can be selected, given cultivar >names and propagated vegetatively. For example Pleione Versailles gx >'Bucklebury', where Versailles is the grex name and 'Bucklebury' a selected >cultivar. > >Group > This is a collective name for a group of cultivars within a genus with >similar characteristics. The word Group is always included and, where cited >with a cultivar name, it is enclosed in brackets, for example Actaea simplex >(Atropurpurea Group) 'Brunette', where 'Brunette' is a distinct cultivar in >a group of purple-leaved cultivars. > Another example of a Group is Rhododendron polycladum Scintillans Group. >In this case R. scintillans was a species that is now botanically 'sunk' >within R. polycladum, but it is still recognised horticulturally as a Group. > Group names are also used for swarms of hybrids with the same parentage, >for example Rhododendron Polar Bear Group. these were formerly treated as >grex names, a term now used only for orchids. A single clone from the Group >may be given the same cultivar name, for example, Rhododendron 'Polar Bear'. > >.................................... > >In the case of Arum italicum with strongly white-veined leaves, which have >been variously known as 'Marmoratum' (= marbled) or 'Pictum' (= painted), >there is clearly a vast number of seedlings that bear this characteristic. >They can't all be one cultivar, but they certainly share the defining >character of white veins and as such the Group concept is ideal. Since >'Pictum' is an undesirable name because of the existence of the species Arum >pictum, Marmoratum is the preferred epithet and Marmoratum Group would >therefore be most appropriate. Within the Arum italicum Marmoratum Group are >numerous selected cultivars (some of dubious value, mind you!) e.g. 'Winter >Beauty', 'White Winter' and these would be written Arum italicum (Marmoratum >Group) 'White Winter'. Seedlings from the clone 'White Winter' would then >just blend back into the Group, unless one were sufficiently distinct to >warrant a cultivar name. > >My reservation about the Group concept is that in (let's call them) >unparticular hands it could be used to make something seem better than it >is, and can conceal a multitude of inferior plants. For example, the Actaea >(formerly Cimicifuga) 'Brunette' example, the seedlings can be only just >brown over green, but still count as Atropurpurea Group. The wise gardener >will always go for a named selection anyway, but the less experienced might >be seduced into getting something inferior that bears an important-sounding >name - 'full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.' > >As always, careful definition of the Group, or cultivar's characteristics is >very important. > >John Grimshaw > > >Dr John M. Grimshaw >Sycamore Cottage >Colesbourne >Nr Cheltenham >Gloucestershire GL53 9NP > >Tel. 01242 870567 > >COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 >Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September >Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm >website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From voltaire@islandnet.com Sun Apr 8 12:19:20 2007 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Arum - naming a Group Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 09:19:08 -0700 John Grimshaw described three instances where a Group name is used for plants. Who decides that a Group name is appropriate? In the case of a genus with a regulating body, must it be done officially? Could a nursery owner or an enthusiastic amateur decide to name one? Diane Whitehead From welty001@mc.duke.edu Sun Apr 8 16:14:33 2007 Message-Id: From: Karen E Welty-wolf Subject: New member with question about variegated Iris cristata Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 16:14:25 -0400 Hello, I'm new to posting here, although I've been reading the archives for reference off and on for a while. I live in Durham, zone 7a in the Piedmont area of North Carolina, where gardening involves lots of red clay. My gardening interests are pretty varied, but I've had some small successes with bulbs in the past year that have me wanting the learn more. Now I've got a question about Iris cristata that I'm hoping someone can help me with. The new growth on my I. cristata 'Alba' this year includes a small patch with variegated foliage. It looks somewhat similar to the variegation on Iris tectorum 'Variegata'. There are several new rhizomes that have the variegation, all tracing back to a single point on the main plant. What's the biology behind this, and is it likely to be a stable pattern? I've never heard of a variegated form of I. cristata although I've searched the internet and the archives here. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen something really cool develop in my own back yard, but my daughter is starting to wonder about my gardening methods. Thanks, Karen W From othonna@gmail.com Sun Apr 8 18:30:37 2007 Message-Id: <8e8da5260704081530i1ce3432vd098e4d90583e58d@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dylan Hannon" Subject: Arum Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 15:30:36 -0700 John, Thank you for that concise clarification. On a related note, I have long wondered if there is any provision (from botanical or horticultural codes) for validly published names that are synonymized in the scientific literature yet represent 'taxa' that retain recognizable characteristics useful in horticulture. Some nurserymen will use these names parentheically, after the accepted "mother name", but is there a better way? The basis for such distinctiveness (in the eyes of some) can be natural- clones that stand out as different, or sampling from slightly distinct wild populations- or from goings on in the garden. Whatever the case they were conceived under nomenclatural rules and have proper published descriptions, type(s), etc. These taxa, if they are that, end up in a sort of no-man's land but of course they may be resurrected later in the scientific literature after further study. Dylan From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Mon Apr 9 01:53:39 2007 Message-Id: <001201c77a6b$6b238dd0$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Groups etc Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 06:53:36 +0100 I think that Dylan's question (see below) about taxa 'lost' in a botanical revision is an important one. After Brian Mathew's revision of Iris came out and he lumped a lot of horticultural 'species' (probably ancient selections) into Iris germanica, the powers that be at Oxford Botanic Garden, where there was a good range of these old plants, went out and changed all their labels at one stroke to Iris germanica. All the history attached to the former name was lost instantaneously and no doubt in future curatorial decisions the need to maintain so many accessions of the same species was questioned, and some discarded. In such cases there is a very good case for using either a cultivar name, if it is a recognisable clone, or group name. A current example that is interesting me is a Tilia - not bulbous, sorry, but I have broad interests. In 1919 Ernest Wilson collected a lime from Ullung-Do (Takesima Island) between Japan and Korea. It was named Tilia insularis but it is only minimally different from the mainland T. amurensis and is now considered to be a form of that species and placed in synonymy as such. Wilson undoubtedly collected elite material of it, and sent it to the Arnold Arboretum, who passed on a tree to Kew. This has become a most beautiful specimen, with large inflorescences of wonderfully scented flowers. In consequence it has been much propagated-from and I'm sure that all trees in European cultivation labelled Tilia insularis are in fact this clone. To my mind it should be given a cultivar name under T. amurensis to enable this exceptional entity to be properly recognised. This case also illustrates a favourite theme of mine, that gardeners frequently get an image of a species based on a very limited sample of specimens or indeed an illustration, and then are quite surprised when a botanist (who has studied a wide range of material) says that an apparently dissimilar plant is also the same species. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dylan Hannon" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Arum > John, > > Thank you for that concise clarification. On a related note, I have > long wondered if there is any provision (from botanical or > horticultural codes) for validly published names that are synonymized > in the scientific literature yet represent 'taxa' that retain > recognizable characteristics useful in horticulture. Some nurserymen > will use these names parentheically, after the accepted "mother name", > but is there a better way? > > The basis for such distinctiveness (in the eyes of some) can be > natural- clones that stand out as different, or sampling from slightly > distinct wild populations- or from goings on in the garden. Whatever > the case they were conceived under nomenclatural rules and have proper > published descriptions, type(s), etc. These taxa, if they are that, > end up in a sort of no-man's land but of course they may be > resurrected later in the scientific literature after further study. From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Mon Apr 9 02:04:26 2007 Message-Id: <001801c77a6c$eb4f5510$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Arum - naming a Group Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:04:21 +0100 Nobody is disbarred from naming any botanical/horticultural entity so long as the correct procedure is followed. So far as I'm aware (Graham Rice will correct if I'm wrong) the procedure to publish a group name requires its publication with a description of the characters it covers, preferably as comprehensively as possible. An example of this is the publication of the Galanthus nivalis Sandersii Group in our book 'Snowdrops', p.90-93, which I know Diane can look up, where the yellow variants of Galanthus nivalis are comprehensively discussed and the covering Group name instituted. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diane Whitehead" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Arum - naming a Group > John Grimshaw described three instances where a Group name is used > for plants. > > Who decides that a Group name is appropriate? In the case of a genus > with a regulating body, must it be done officially? Could a nursery > owner or an enthusiastic amateur decide to name one? > > > Diane Whitehead > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/751 - Release Date: > 07/04/2007 22:57 > > From othonna@gmail.com Mon Apr 9 03:01:54 2007 Message-Id: <8e8da5260704090001l5e8f58f1k71e261f392228d7f@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dylan Hannon" Subject: Arum - naming a Group Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 00:01:53 -0700 I think it is worth pointing out here that any of us is free to accept or reject any validly published name for any given plant. If one prefers to use Amaryllis over Hippeastrum, for whatever reasons, it is not technically "wrong". The same goes for recognizing the Liliaceae in its old, broad sense versus the modern partitioning of this family into a dozen or more "new" families [some of them are very old family concepts!]. Some formal changes, as carried by the scientific journals, are accepted by the botanical community while others are not. The difficulty is that picking and choosing among the various classifications can require as much energy or more than growing the plants themselves. As most growers have deduced, taxonomy has its trends and periods where certain approaches or styles are favored, only to be supplanted by others in later years or generations. Laypersons are often confounded by the trappings of botanical classification and it is well to keep in mind that there are, as might be expected, subjective elements at work. In other words, methodologies may be rigorous and even 'empirical' but decisions on where to draw lines between what we call genera and species are a personal decision at some level, even for the scientist. Today the classification scheme itself- important as it is to us- is almost an afterthought while sorting the mysteries of phylogeny takes center stage. A further example is the recent 'splitting out' of quite a few new genera from Eurasian Scilla, Muscari, etc. Whether these names are new or resurrected and dusty, the pattern of progressive understanding of phylogeny and the renaming of these groups remains the same. I wholeheartedly agree with John about variation in species being often underappreciated or unrealized and would go one further in suggesting that such variation is one of the most appealing levels of horticultural endeavor. We are fortunate that some dealers purvey various species from multiple localities, e.g. Mike Salmon (Colchicum, Narcissus, etc.) and Summerfield's (mainly South African Hyacinthaceae). A look at Graham Duncan's Lachenalia book confirms this idea-- just look at L. trichophylla and L. mutabilis! Not all novel forms of known varieties are "garden improvements" and in fact many cultivars are clones of direct wild origin. The Groups concept as described here is new to me and I wanted to add that it should not be confused with similar concepts commonly met with in the botanical literature and good plant books. They are often termed "alliances" or "complexes" or even "groups" and refer to natural groupings of genera or species with distinctive similarities. Sometimes they reflect formal taxa or categories (subfamilies, subgenera), or they may be informal and used as points of discussion. Dylan On 4/8/07, John Grimshaw wrote: > Nobody is disbarred from naming any botanical/horticultural entity so long > as the correct procedure is followed. So far as I'm aware (Graham Rice will > correct if I'm wrong) the procedure to publish a group name requires its > publication with a description of the characters it covers, preferably as > comprehensively as possible. An example of this is the publication of the > Galanthus nivalis Sandersii Group in our book 'Snowdrops', p.90-93, which I > know Diane can look up, where the yellow variants of Galanthus nivalis are > comprehensively discussed and the covering Group name instituted. > > John Grimshaw > > > Dr John M. Grimshaw > Sycamore Cottage > Colesbourne > Nr Cheltenham > Gloucestershire GL53 9NP > > Tel. 01242 870567 > > COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 > Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September > Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm > website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Diane Whitehead" > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 5:19 PM > Subject: Re: [pbs] Arum - naming a Group > > > > John Grimshaw described three instances where a Group name is used > > for plants. > > > > Who decides that a Group name is appropriate? In the case of a genus > > with a regulating body, must it be done officially? Could a nursery > > owner or an enthusiastic amateur decide to name one? > > > > > > Diane Whitehead > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/751 - Release Date: > > 07/04/2007 22:57 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Mon Apr 9 03:48:42 2007 Message-Id: <004201c77a7b$7dbb4720$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Arum - naming a Group Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:48:39 +0100 Dylan Hannon wrote: >I think it is worth pointing out here that any of us is free to accept > or reject any validly published name for any given plant. If one > prefers to use Amaryllis over Hippeastrum, for whatever reasons, it is > not technically "wrong". The same goes for recognizing the Liliaceae > in its old, broad sense versus the modern partitioning of this family > into a dozen or more "new" families [some of them are very old family > concepts!]. Some formal changes, as carried by the scientific > journals, are accepted by the botanical community while others are > not. The difficulty is that picking and choosing among the various > classifications can require as much energy or more than growing the > plants themselves. This subject has been frequently discussed here. While it is indeed true that one can pick and choose one's own taxonomy, I always think that if one feels confident enough to override a technical expert in the field who has invested a great deal of time and resources into reaching a conclusion, then one must be able to put forward on equal terms a convincing argument why such and such a taxonomic viewpoint should be rejected. It is not sufficient to say 'I don't like it' - that is the way of the Luddites. The vexed question of Amaryllis versus Hippeastrum is an unfortunate case to use in this instance, since here it IS wrong to say that Amaryllis can be used for Hippeastrum, as the question has been settled by decision of the International Botanical Congress in favour of Amaryllis being restricted to the South African species. Whether or not this was the right decision is immaterial: if the codes of taxonomy are to be ignored at random then chaos can be the only result. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk From garden@tiscali.co.uk Mon Apr 9 09:44:43 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: Arum - naming a Group Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:38:39 -0400 Yes, quite right. As with the publication of any new name it requires to be published in a reasonably accessible publication (including a nursery catalogue) with, as John suggests, a description suitably comprehensive to establish beyond reasonable doubt the characteristics of the plants involved. However, I'm not sure if the group names which have appeared in the PlantFinder recently - Helleborus foetidus Wester Flisk Group, for example - and which have often been coined by the RHS have all actually been published in this way... Graham Rice Milford, PA http://TransatlanticPlantsman.com >Nobody is disbarred from naming any botanical/horticultural entity so long >as the correct procedure is followed. So far as I'm aware (Graham Rice will >correct if I'm wrong) the procedure to publish a group name requires its >publication with a description of the characters it covers, preferably as >comprehensively as possible. An example of this is the publication of the >Galanthus nivalis Sandersii Group in our book 'Snowdrops', p.90-93, which I >know Diane can look up, where the yellow variants of Galanthus nivalis are >comprehensively discussed and the covering Group name instituted. > >John Grimshaw > > >Dr John M. Grimshaw >Sycamore Cottage >Colesbourne >Nr Cheltenham >Gloucestershire GL53 9NP > >Tel. 01242 870567 > >COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 >Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September >Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm >website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Diane Whitehead" >To: "Pacific Bulb Society" >Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 5:19 PM >Subject: Re: [pbs] Arum - naming a Group > > >> John Grimshaw described three instances where a Group name is used >> for plants. >> >> Who decides that a Group name is appropriate? In the case of a genus >> with a regulating body, must it be done officially? Could a nursery >> owner or an enthusiastic amateur decide to name one? >> >> >> Diane Whitehead >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/751 - Release Date: >> 07/04/2007 22:57 >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From garden@tiscali.co.uk Mon Apr 9 10:15:07 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: Arum - naming a Group Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 10:14:20 -0400 This is why the work of the RHS Advisory Panel on Nomenclature and Taxonomy (APONAT), whose advice informs the use of names in The RHS PlantFinder, is so valuable. Not everyone agrees with their judgements but it seems to me that the existence of a freely available publication (and I mean free - http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder.asp) standardising the names of plants in horticulture the world over is invaluable. What's more the minutes of the meetings of APONAT are now available for all to read online here: http://www.rhs.org.uk/About/Committee/committeeminutes_taxonomy.htm. And they welcome comments and information about individual issues. Graham Rice Milford, PA http://TransatlanticPlantsman.com >I think it is worth pointing out here that any of us is free to accept >or reject any validly published name for any given plant. If one >prefers to use Amaryllis over Hippeastrum, for whatever reasons, it is >not technically "wrong". The same goes for recognizing the Liliaceae >in its old, broad sense versus the modern partitioning of this family >into a dozen or more "new" families [some of them are very old family >concepts!]. Some formal changes, as carried by the scientific >journals, are accepted by the botanical community while others are >not. The difficulty is that picking and choosing among the various >classifications can require as much energy or more than growing the >plants themselves. > >As most growers have deduced, taxonomy has its trends and periods >where certain approaches or styles are favored, only to be supplanted >by others in later years or generations. Laypersons are often >confounded by the trappings of botanical classification and it is well >to keep in mind that there are, as might be expected, subjective >elements at work. In other words, methodologies may be rigorous and >even 'empirical' but decisions on where to draw lines between what we >call genera and species are a personal decision at some level, even >for the scientist. Today the classification scheme itself- important >as it is to us- is almost an afterthought while sorting the mysteries >of phylogeny takes center stage. A further example is the recent >'splitting out' of quite a few new genera from Eurasian Scilla, >Muscari, etc. Whether these names are new or resurrected and dusty, >the pattern of progressive understanding of phylogeny and the renaming >of these groups remains the same. > >I wholeheartedly agree with John about variation in species being >often underappreciated or unrealized and would go one further in >suggesting that such variation is one of the most appealing levels of >horticultural endeavor. We are fortunate that some dealers purvey >various species from multiple localities, e.g. Mike Salmon (Colchicum, >Narcissus, etc.) and Summerfield's (mainly South African >Hyacinthaceae). A look at Graham Duncan's Lachenalia book confirms >this idea-- just look at L. trichophylla and L. mutabilis! Not all >novel forms of known varieties are "garden improvements" and in fact >many cultivars are clones of direct wild origin. > >The Groups concept as described here is new to me and I wanted to add >that it should not be confused with similar concepts commonly met with >in the botanical literature and good plant books. They are often >termed "alliances" or "complexes" or even "groups" and refer to >natural groupings of genera or species with distinctive similarities. >Sometimes they reflect formal taxa or categories (subfamilies, >subgenera), or they may be informal and used as points of discussion. > >Dylan > > > >On 4/8/07, John Grimshaw wrote: >> Nobody is disbarred from naming any botanical/horticultural entity so long >> as the correct procedure is followed. So far as I'm aware (Graham Rice will >> correct if I'm wrong) the procedure to publish a group name requires its >> publication with a description of the characters it covers, preferably as >> comprehensively as possible. An example of this is the publication of the > > Galanthus nivalis Sandersii Group in our book 'Snowdrops', p.90-93, which I >> know Diane can look up, where the yellow variants of Galanthus nivalis are >> comprehensively discussed and the covering Group name instituted. >> >> John Grimshaw >> >> >> Dr John M. Grimshaw >> Sycamore Cottage >> Colesbourne >> Nr Cheltenham >> Gloucestershire GL53 9NP >> >> Tel. 01242 870567 >> >> COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 >> Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September >> Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm >> website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Diane Whitehead" >> To: "Pacific Bulb Society" >> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 5:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [pbs] Arum - naming a Group >> >> >> > John Grimshaw described three instances where a Group name is used >> > for plants. >> > >> > Who decides that a Group name is appropriate? In the case of a genus >> > with a regulating body, must it be done officially? Could a nursery >> > owner or an enthusiastic amateur decide to name one? >> > >> > >> > Diane Whitehead >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > pbs mailing list >> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> > >> > >> > -- >> > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/751 - Release Date: >> > 07/04/2007 22:57 >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From garden@tiscali.co.uk Mon Apr 9 10:15:08 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: Groups etc Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 10:14:31 -0400 Agree about the iris at Oxford BG, and Brian Mathew does say that of those he's sunk "the majority are most likely to be cultivars" so the good folks at Oxford should perhaps at the very least have labelled their plants "clone 1", "clone 2" etc pending further study. But surely if Wilson's Tilia is now considered a form of T. amurensis, then it has a valid name - preumably Tilia amurensis f. insularis. However, the PlantFinder still recognises T. insularis so the distinction is currently being maintained in the trade. Graham Rice Milford, PA 20sF again http://TransatlanticPlantsman.com >I think that Dylan's question (see below) about taxa 'lost' in a botanical >revision is an important one. After Brian Mathew's revision of Iris came out >and he lumped a lot of horticultural 'species' (probably ancient selections) >into Iris germanica, the powers that be at Oxford Botanic Garden, where >there was a good range of these old plants, went out and changed all their >labels at one stroke to Iris germanica. All the history attached to the >former name was lost instantaneously and no doubt in future curatorial >decisions the need to maintain so many accessions of the same species was >questioned, and some discarded. In such cases there is a very good case for >using either a cultivar name, if it is a recognisable clone, or group name. > >A current example that is interesting me is a Tilia - not bulbous, sorry, >but I have broad interests. In 1919 Ernest Wilson collected a lime from >Ullung-Do (Takesima Island) between Japan and Korea. It was named Tilia >insularis but it is only minimally different from the mainland T. amurensis >and is now considered to be a form of that species and placed in synonymy as >such. Wilson undoubtedly collected elite material of it, and sent it to the >Arnold Arboretum, who passed on a tree to Kew. This has become a most >beautiful specimen, with large inflorescences of wonderfully scented >flowers. In consequence it has been much propagated-from and I'm sure that >all trees in European cultivation labelled Tilia insularis are in fact this >clone. To my mind it should be given a cultivar name under T. amurensis to >enable this exceptional entity to be properly recognised. > >This case also illustrates a favourite theme of mine, that gardeners >frequently get an image of a species based on a very limited sample of >specimens or indeed an illustration, and then are quite surprised when a >botanist (who has studied a wide range of material) says that an apparently >dissimilar plant is also the same species. > >John Grimshaw > > >Dr John M. Grimshaw >Sycamore Cottage >Colesbourne >Nr Cheltenham >Gloucestershire GL53 9NP > >Tel. 01242 870567 > >COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 >Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September >Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm >website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dylan Hannon" >To: "Pacific Bulb Society" >Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 11:30 PM >Subject: Re: [pbs] Arum > > >> John, >> >> Thank you for that concise clarification. On a related note, I have >> long wondered if there is any provision (from botanical or >> horticultural codes) for validly published names that are synonymized >> in the scientific literature yet represent 'taxa' that retain >> recognizable characteristics useful in horticulture. Some nurserymen >> will use these names parentheically, after the accepted "mother name", >> but is there a better way? >> >> The basis for such distinctiveness (in the eyes of some) can be >> natural- clones that stand out as different, or sampling from slightly >> distinct wild populations- or from goings on in the garden. Whatever >> the case they were conceived under nomenclatural rules and have proper >> published descriptions, type(s), etc. These taxa, if they are that, >> end up in a sort of no-man's land but of course they may be >> resurrected later in the scientific literature after further study. > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From carlobal@netzero.com Mon Apr 9 10:20:00 2007 Message-Id: <20070409.071908.18186.1559474@webmail36.lax.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.com" Subject: Arum - naming a Group Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 14:19:05 GMT Graham, Thanks for the citation for the meeting minutes of APONAT. What a fascinating read. I recommend it to anyone interested in plant names--a chance to watch taxonomy in action! Carlo Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2049) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com From kelly@irvincentral.com Mon Apr 9 10:39:54 2007 Message-Id: <461A502A.30606@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: New member with question about variegated Iris cristata Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 09:39:38 -0500 Hi, Karen, and welcome to the list. I thought I would just make a few comments as long as you understand I'm not all that knowledgeable in the area of mutation whether localized or on a cellular level. My purpose here would be more to relate to you an experience I had last season with one of my Hemerocallis clumps. Last season, one of my daylily fans was pushing up variegated leaves, yellow and green. It was not a completely uniform variegation across the leaf, but it existed from tip to base and on more than one leaf. I decided to separate it from the clump and potted it. I included some slow release fertilizer and nurtured it through the season. Well, by the end of the season, the same fan was putting up new, totally green, totally normal, leaves. I have drawn a conclusion, however incorrect it may be, that the variegation could have somehow been a reflection based on mechanical damage, nutritional issues, or, worse, virus. I would guess, with Iris, you could easily isolate the clump that is producing the variegation. From that, you could gain a greater confidence in its stability, because it will be in a different location, maybe it will get fresh nutritional requirements, and most importantly, it will be easier for you to study the new growth from different growing points that originate from that same area of tissue. Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b mailto:kelly@irvincentral.com http://www.irvincentral.com/ Karen E Welty-wolf wrote: > Hello, I'm new to posting here, although I've been reading the archives for > reference off and on for a while. I live in Durham, zone 7a in the Piedmont > area of North Carolina, where gardening involves lots of red clay. My > gardening interests are pretty varied, but I've had some small successes > with bulbs in the past year that have me wanting the learn more. Now I've > got a question about Iris cristata that I'm hoping someone can help me > with. The new growth on my I. cristata 'Alba' this year includes a small > patch with variegated foliage. It looks somewhat similar to the variegation > on Iris tectorum 'Variegata'. There are several new rhizomes that have the > variegation, all tracing back to a single point on the main plant. What's > the biology behind this, and is it likely to be a stable pattern? I've > never heard of a variegated form of I. cristata although I've searched the > internet and the archives here. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen > something really cool develop in my own back yard, but my daughter is > starting to wonder about my gardening methods. Thanks, Karen W > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From kelly@irvincentral.com Mon Apr 9 10:45:15 2007 Message-Id: <461A516C.1050303@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: New member with question about variegated Iris cristata Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 09:45:00 -0500 Sorry, folks. Did not mean to quote the whole message. Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b mailto:kelly@irvincentral.com http://www.irvincentral.com/ From othonna@gmail.com Mon Apr 9 12:52:49 2007 Message-Id: <8e8da5260704090952g70cf1263h28bffcd94804ebe7@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dylan Hannon" Subject: Arum - naming a Group Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 09:52:49 -0700 In my haste to think of an example, Amaryllis/Hippeastrum was indeed a poor example. My point is that not all changes are accepted in the long run and so hobbyists need not switch their labels at every turn of taxonomic change. The (failed) effort to split Eucalyptus into a number of genera and the apparent flip-flop on subsuming Albuca into Ornthogalum (see previous posts here) can be cited along with many others. Competing contemporary classifications by recognized ("competing") authorities also are an issue sometimes. The fact that so often people have great difficulty in determining the "correct" name for a plant indicates that authoritative references frequently are not in agreement with one another, which is obviously the case, and one must wonder why this is so. Dylan On 4/9/07, John Grimshaw wrote: > Dylan Hannon wrote: > > >I think it is worth pointing out here that any of us is free to accept > > or reject any validly published name for any given plant. If one > > prefers to use Amaryllis over Hippeastrum, for whatever reasons, it is > > not technically "wrong". The same goes for recognizing the Liliaceae > > in its old, broad sense versus the modern partitioning of this family > > into a dozen or more "new" families [some of them are very old family > > concepts!]. Some formal changes, as carried by the scientific > > journals, are accepted by the botanical community while others are > > not. The difficulty is that picking and choosing among the various > > classifications can require as much energy or more than growing the > > plants themselves. > > This subject has been frequently discussed here. While it is indeed true > that one can pick and choose one's own taxonomy, I always think that if one > feels confident enough to override a technical expert in the field who has > invested a great deal of time and resources into reaching a conclusion, then > one must be able to put forward on equal terms a convincing argument why > such and such a taxonomic viewpoint should be rejected. It is not sufficient > to say 'I don't like it' - that is the way of the Luddites. > > The vexed question of Amaryllis versus Hippeastrum is an unfortunate case to > use in this instance, since here it IS wrong to say that Amaryllis can be > used for Hippeastrum, as the question has been settled by decision of the > International Botanical Congress in favour of Amaryllis being restricted to > the South African species. Whether or not this was the right decision is > immaterial: if the codes of taxonomy are to be ignored at random then chaos > can be the only result. > > John Grimshaw > > > Dr John M. Grimshaw > Sycamore Cottage > Colesbourne > Nr Cheltenham > Gloucestershire GL53 9NP > > Tel. 01242 870567 > > COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 > Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September > Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm > website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From jglatt@hughes.net Mon Apr 9 13:32:29 2007 Message-Id: <461A78C8.4050706@hughes.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: Variegation Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 13:32:56 -0400 My understanding is that while chlorophyll = green is the primary photosynthetic system plants utilize, there is a secondary route that uses yellow. Thus yellow variegated plants grow reasonably vigorously. White being the absence of pigment, white variegated plants are less efficient, grow more slowly, may revert to all-green - Hemerocallis 'Kwanso' and Kerria japonica 'Picta' as examples. Also, variegated plants fertilized with additional nitrogen may change to all-green. Not certain if this applies to yellow-variegated, white-variegated, or both. Judy From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon Apr 9 13:56:55 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20070409104313.02c408c8@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Arum - naming a Group Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 10:52:13 -0700 John Grimshaw wrote, This subject has been frequently discussed here. While it is indeed true >that one can pick and choose one's own taxonomy, I always think that if one >feels confident enough to override a technical expert in the field who has >invested a great deal of time and resources into reaching a conclusion, then >one must be able to put forward on equal terms a convincing argument why >such and such a taxonomic viewpoint should be rejected. It is not sufficient >to say 'I don't like it' - that is the way of the Luddites. Because I can't do such research and present such arguments, when I'm confronted with a group of plants that I grow for which the taxonomy is currently controversial, I think it's best, when publishing a garden article or offering them for sale, to take the following steps: (1) Point out that a controversy exists at the date of writing, and possibly has existed for some years. (2) Identify the source of the plant under discussion or offer, from which the name you may choose to give first position to has been derived; and point out any published authority on which you're relying for names. (3) Give as many synonyms as may be appropriate (not very obsolete ones, but those that may be seen in fairly recent literature). (4) Perform a clear rhetorical throwing up of the hands and cast the decision onto whatever classification may come to be accepted in the future, or onto the preferences of your readers/buyers. This is essentially the procedure I have followed for several years in offering Narcissus species in my bulb list, a genus in which two distinct schools of thought on classification presently coexist. I haven't yet decided what to do about Scilla; I expect some of Speta's new (or revived) genera will "stick," but perhaps not all will, so "Scilla" will continue to appear in my list as at least a synonym. Annoyance at innovations that don't seem to be useful is probably a universal human characteristic, but botanists are at least less annoying than the software designers at Microsoft. Jane McGary Editor, NARGS From dejager@bulbargence.com Mon Apr 9 14:56:21 2007 Message-Id: From: Bulbargence Subject: Visit to Boston area Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 20:56:16 +0200 Hello Fred, Thanks for the information and we will surely visit these tow parks.So many people told us about your lovely city and area, that we are looking very much forward to seeing it. Kind greetings Lauw de Jager http://www.bulbargence.com South of France (zone 8 Olivier) Coord. Geogr.(GPS): 43°42' 43" N 4° 32' 12" E > Provided the weather cooperates and there's no snow, the Boston Public > Garden is always beautiful in the spring. The Arnold Arboretum, which is not > too far from the downtown area is also quite beautiful this time of the > year. Both locations have wonderful both formal and informal beds of many > types of bulbous plants and some look as if they've naturalized over the > years, particularly at the Arnold Arboretum. A few years back I was driving > by the there and I noticed an absolutely beautiful sea of blue. I had to > stop what it was. It turned out to be an incredible naturalized bed of > scilla siberica that was just a happy as could be and flowering in full > force. Boston is a fun city and I do hope you enjoy it. > > Fred Biasella > Cambridge (Boston) MA From garden@tiscali.co.uk Mon Apr 9 15:14:43 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: Finally, perhaps, on arums Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:14:25 -0400 I've just been out to look at the foliage of the various forms of A. italicum to see how they've stood up to the rigours of the winter and "spring" - so far, the one in the best condition is: Grimshaw's form! Graham Rice Milford, PA -- http://www.transatlanticplantsman.com From dkramb@badbear.com Mon Apr 9 23:34:59 2007 Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20070409233430.01b22570@badbear.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: New member with question about variegated Iris cristata Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 23:35:38 -0400 >the biology behind this, and is it likely to be a stable pattern? I've >never heard of a variegated form of I. cristata although I've searched the >internet and the archives here. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen I'm a hard-core Iris cristata lover, and I've never heard of a variegated type. I think you have something brand new! I'm sure several nursery owners would love to introduce that plant. :-) Dennis in Cincinnati From christopherwhitehouse@rhs.org.uk Tue Apr 10 05:08:30 2007 Message-Id: <03C1FD2D3BA79B48A8DB619A68FAD07609F133@vsmail.rhs.net> From: "CHRISTOPHERW" Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 51, Issue 9 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:08:29 +0100 >This is why the work of the RHS Advisory Panel on Nomenclature and >Taxonomy (APONAT), whose advice informs the use of names in The RHS >PlantFinder, is so valuable. Not everyone agrees with their >judgements but it seems to me that the existence of a freely >available publication (and I mean free - >http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder.asp) standardising >the names of plants in horticulture the world over is invaluable. >What's more the minutes of the meetings of APONAT are now available >for all to read online here: >http://www.rhs.org.uk/About/Committee/committeeminutes_taxonomy.htm. >And they welcome comments and information about individual issues. As secretary to APONAT, I would very much like to thank Graham for pointing out to the wider horticultural world the work that this panel does for the RHS and the horticultural community in general. I would certainly like to emphasise the main reason for its existence is to provide the RHS with a standardised taxonomy for all our publications and work, and it is not there to force everyone else to agree with it. As John has pointed out in the discussion of Amaryllis and Hippeastrum, there are two aspects to every horticultural name: a nomenclatural and a taxonomic. Everyone needs to follow the nomenclatural rules appropriate for that name (whether according to the Botanical Code or the Cultivated Plant Code) if there is not going to be anarchy in plant names. These rules include priority of the name, valid publication, correct spelling and conservation of the name (e.g. Amaryllis), etc. However, nobody is obliged to follow the taxonomic aspect of a name, although as John and Graham remind us, we should probably have a strong argument for dismissing someone's well-reasoned consideration of a name change. APONAT makes decisions on both aspects and the minutes need to be read with this in mind. The RHS Plant Finder is certainly a useful resource for anyone just wanting to follow a good taxonomy without making their own decisions for every potential name change. However, the RHS Plant Finder was designed for gardeners in the UK to locate plants at nurseries and the database is actually based on the larger datasource of the RHS Horticultural Database. This can be located at the following link: http://www.rhs.org.uk/databases/summary.asp The advantages of using this over the Plant Finder search page is that more taxa are included (e.g. Lachenalia kliprandensis which is not found in the RHS Plant Finder but is on the RHS Horticultural Database) and it gives some indication of the status of the name. Take another example, going a bit off topic but using Graham's example of Helleborus Wester Flisk Group, this is given on the Horticultural Database as only tentatively accepted. That basically means that there is nothing obviously wrong with the name but it has not been investigated in detail enough by the RHS botanists to confirm that it has been validly described somewhere. With over 4000 plant names added to the database each year, I hope you can understand that the RHS botanists do not get time to check that there is a proper description for every name on the database. If the members are interested then I can highlight if there are any particular issues on the APONAT minutes relevant to bulbous plants once they have been published to the internet. Over the last year there have been small discussions on Nothoscordum, Typhonium & Sauromatum, and South American Oxalis. The most relevant minutes available on the internet are probably 4 August 2005, where Merwilla & Scilla and Leucojum & Acis were briefly discussed. As Graham says, in using the databases, if you feel there are aspects of it that are incorrect then please do get in touch we me and I can ask APONAT if they ought to consider changing it. Chris Dr Christopher Whitehouse Keeper of the Herbarium RHS Garden Wisley WOKING Surrey GU23 6QB Tel: 01483 224234 Fax: 01483 211750 The contents of this email and any files transmitted with it are confidential, proprietary and may be legally privileged. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. If you are not the intended recipient you may not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print or rely on this email. The sender is not responsible for any changes made to any part of this email after transmission. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Society. Although this email and any attachments are believed to be free from any virus or other defects which might affect any computer or IT system into which they are received, no responsibility is accepted by the Society or any of its associated companies for any loss or damage arising in any way from the receipt or use thereof. The Royal Horticultural Society (RHS) is the UK’s leading gardening charity dedicated to advancing horticulture and promoting good gardening. Anyone with an interest in gardening can enjoy the benefits of RHS membership and help us to secure a healthy future for gardening. For more information call: 0845 130 4646, or visit http://www.rhs.org.uk Reg charity no. 222879 From Neil.Crawford@volvo.com Tue Apr 10 05:18:29 2007 Message-Id: <16B261F82E2E594895EBA3157EA779AC051ED4B2@segotn645.vcn.ds.volvo.net> From: "Crawford Neil" Subject: New member and questions about Eastern Cape Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:18:26 +0200 Marilyn wrote: >It looks like you're smitten with South Africa just as my family is. We go to Cape Town every year and several years >ago we bought a house there since we seemed to be "commuting" to Cape Town. So, I'm warning you... travel to South >Africa and South AFrican plants can become addicting! I've made my garden in South Africa an indigenous garden...it's >now about 90% indigenous South African plants....and I grow lots of South African plants in my gardens at home in >Pennsylvania and indoors, too. Very addicting! Yes, South Africa is a wonderful place, we never planned to go back so soon, but now we've already booked the flight. I'm thinking of trying some South African bulbs, but not sure which will stand our winters. I think it's not just the cold thats the problem, it's the wetness and damp. I saw that they have that Zantedeschia aetiopica in our botanical garden in Gothenburg, so that might be a candidate. >The Tsitsikama Forest is also wonderful. Then on to Addo National Elephant Park--this is a must! You won't only be >seeing geophytes. You'll also see succulents and amazing trees and fantastic landscapes, dramatic rock formations, > waterfalls, animals and all kinds of plants. The most important thing is to get out and "be" in the landscape >whenever you can. HIKE. We spent too much time in the car last time, this time we will certainly be hiking. We've found good places to hike at Barrydale, Hogsback, Tsitsikama and of course DeHoop, we visited DeHoop last time and I can't recommend it enough, there is a short trail at Potsberg that we thought we might try. I was just reading about Marloth nature reserve, does anyone know if it's worth a visit? >Where can I find out more about Cameron's "advanced" trip? I'd be interested in that. Heres Camerons trip: http://www.africanbulbs.com/page31.html and here is Tonys http://www.plantdelights.com/Tony/south_africa_p2.php >I'm not just a "bulb" person as I'm sure most of us are not. Any unusual plant tempts me and every plant, dull or >fantastic, gives me something to think about. Have to agree, hard to think of a plant I don't like. >South African plants are my passion. I'm a neophyte to this site too, so I hope this response is not too wordy, >personal, or non-geophyte oriented for this discussion. Marilyn Thanks very much for your reply, I too hope we're being geophytic enough! Finally another question, where is the best place to see Strelitzia regina growing naturally? Best regards Neil PS. Corydalis intermedia and Anemone nemerosa are just beginning to flower in our garden here on Swedens west coast. From adam14113@ameritech.net Tue Apr 10 12:41:52 2007 Message-Id: <001b01c77b8f$4f2e90a0$5ad8fea9@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: nomenclature and taxonomy Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:43:00 -0500 I have really enjoyed the exchange of information on the ins-and-outs of this extended discussion. best I've seen anywhere, with the RHS point of view nicely summarized. Adam Fikso From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Tue Apr 10 14:34:23 2007 Message-Id: <014c01c77b9e$dac76ba0$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: nomenclature +ACY- taxonomy issues Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:34:18 +0100 While agreing entirely with Chris Whitehouse's post, I think it's important to make it clear that although the Royal Horticultural Society's APONAT Panel is a major influence in horticutural taxonomy, the 'rulebooks' for both the Botanical and Cultivated Plant Codes are derived by consensus at international meetings of botanists and horticultural taxonomists - not some devious British plot to dominate the world of plants. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "CHRISTOPHERW" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] pbs Digest, Vol 51, Issue 9 >This is why the work of the RHS Advisory Panel on Nomenclature and >Taxonomy (APONAT), whose advice informs the use of names in The RHS >PlantFinder, is so valuable. Not everyone agrees with their >judgements but it seems to me that the existence of a freely >available publication (and I mean free - >http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder.asp) standardising >the names of plants in horticulture the world over is invaluable. >What's more the minutes of the meetings of APONAT are now available >for all to read online here: >http://www.rhs.org.uk/About/Committee/committeeminutes_taxonomy.htm. >And they welcome comments and information about individual issues. As secretary to APONAT, I would very much like to thank Graham for pointing out to the wider horticultural world the work that this panel does for the RHS and the horticultural community in general. I would certainly like to emphasise the main reason for its existence is to provide the RHS with a standardised taxonomy for all our publications and work, and it is not there to force everyone else to agree with it. As John has pointed out in the discussion of Amaryllis and Hippeastrum, there are two aspects to every horticultural name: a nomenclatural and a taxonomic. Everyone needs to follow the nomenclatural rules appropriate for that name (whether according to the Botanical Code or the Cultivated Plant Code) if there is not going to be anarchy in plant names. These rules include priority of the name, valid publication, correct spelling and conservation of the name (e.g. Amaryllis), etc. However, nobody is obliged to follow the taxonomic aspect of a name, although as John and Graham remind us, we should probably have a strong argument for dismissing someone's well-reasoned consideration of a name change. APONAT makes decisions on both aspects and the minutes need to be read with this in mind. The RHS Plant Finder is certainly a useful resource for anyone just wanting to follow a good taxonomy without making their own decisions for every potential name change. However, the RHS Plant Finder was designed for gardeners in the UK to locate plants at nurseries and the database is actually based on the larger datasource of the RHS Horticultural Database. This can be located at the following link: http://www.rhs.org.uk/databases/summary.asp The advantages of using this over the Plant Finder search page is that more taxa are included (e.g. Lachenalia kliprandensis which is not found in the RHS Plant Finder but is on the RHS Horticultural Database) and it gives some indication of the status of the name. Take another example, going a bit off topic but using Graham's example of Helleborus Wester Flisk Group, this is given on the Horticultural Database as only tentatively accepted. That basically means that there is nothing obviously wrong with the name but it has not been investigated in detail enough by the RHS botanists to confirm that it has been validly described somewhere. With over 4000 plant names added to the database each year, I hope you can understand that the RHS botanists do not get time to check that there is a proper description for every name on the database. If the members are interested then I can highlight if there are any particular issues on the APONAT minutes relevant to bulbous plants once they have been published to the internet. Over the last year there have been small discussions on Nothoscordum, Typhonium & Sauromatum, and South American Oxalis. The most relevant minutes available on the internet are probably 4 August 2005, where Merwilla & Scilla and Leucojum & Acis were briefly discussed. As Graham says, in using the databases, if you feel there are aspects of it that are incorrect then please do get in touch we me and I can ask APONAT if they ought to consider changing it. Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/754 - Release Date: 09/04/2007 22:59 From voltaire@islandnet.com Tue Apr 10 16:38:47 2007 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: APONAT bulb updates Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 13:38:35 -0700 I would certainly be interested in Chris' offer to let us know if there are any discussions about reorganizing or renaming bulb genera. Diane Whitehead ======================================================================== If the members are interested then I can highlight if there are any particular issues on the APONAT minutes relevant to bulbous plants once they have been published to the internet. Over the last year there have been small discussions on Nothoscordum, Typhonium & Sauromatum, and South American Oxalis. The most relevant minutes available on the internet are probably 4 August 2005, where Merwilla & Scilla and Leucojum & Acis were briefly discussed. Chris Dr Christopher Whitehouse Keeper of the Herbarium RHS Garden Wisley From garden@tiscali.co.uk Tue Apr 10 16:51:47 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: nomenclature +ACY- taxonomy issues Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:49:43 -0400 Actually, the one thing that I would like to see would be more formal input into APONAT from overseas - this might help avoid situations such as the Americans splitting Aster into smaller genera and the RHS retaining Aster. Graham Rice Milford, PA 6in of snow forcast tomorrow night - enough! >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Utf-7"; reply-type=original >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >While agreing entirely with Chris Whitehouse's post, I think it's >important to make it clear that although the Royal Horticultural >Society's APONAT Panel is a major influence in horticutural >taxonomy, the 'rulebooks' for both the Botanical and Cultivated >Plant Codes are derived by consensus at international meetings of >botanists and horticultural taxonomists - not some devious British >plot to dominate the world of plants. > >John Grimshaw > > > >Dr John M. Grimshaw >Sycamore Cottage >Colesbourne >Nr Cheltenham >Gloucestershire GL53 9NP > >Tel. 01242 870567 > >COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 >Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September >Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm >website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk > >----- Original Message ----- From: "CHRISTOPHERW" > >To: >Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 10:08 AM >Subject: Re: [pbs] pbs Digest, Vol 51, Issue 9 > > >>This is why the work of the RHS Advisory Panel on Nomenclature and >>Taxonomy (APONAT), whose advice informs the use of names in The RHS >>PlantFinder, is so valuable. Not everyone agrees with their >>judgements but it seems to me that the existence of a freely >>available publication (and I mean free - >>http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder.asp) standardising >>the names of plants in horticulture the world over is invaluable. > >>What's more the minutes of the meetings of APONAT are now available >>for all to read online here: >>http://www.rhs.org.uk/About/Committee/committeeminutes_taxonomy.htm. >>And they welcome comments and information about individual issues. > >As secretary to APONAT, I would very much like to thank Graham for >pointing out to the wider horticultural world the work that this panel >does for the RHS and the horticultural community in general. I would >certainly like to emphasise the main reason for its existence is to >provide the RHS with a standardised taxonomy for all our publications >and work, and it is not there to force everyone else to agree with it. >As John has pointed out in the discussion of Amaryllis and Hippeastrum, >there are two aspects to every horticultural name: a nomenclatural and a >taxonomic. Everyone needs to follow the nomenclatural rules appropriate >for that name (whether according to the Botanical Code or the Cultivated >Plant Code) if there is not going to be anarchy in plant names. These >rules include priority of the name, valid publication, correct spelling >and conservation of the name (e.g. Amaryllis), etc. However, nobody is >obliged to follow the taxonomic aspect of a name, although as John and >Graham remind us, we should probably have a strong argument for >dismissing someone's well-reasoned consideration of a name change. >APONAT makes decisions on both aspects and the minutes need to be read >with this in mind. > >The RHS Plant Finder is certainly a useful resource for anyone just >wanting to follow a good taxonomy without making their own decisions for >every potential name change. However, the RHS Plant Finder was designed >for gardeners in the UK to locate plants at nurseries and the database >is actually based on the larger datasource of the RHS Horticultural >Database. This can be located at the following link: >http://www.rhs.org.uk/databases/summary.asp >The advantages of using this over the Plant Finder search page is that >more taxa are included (e.g. Lachenalia kliprandensis which is not found >in the RHS Plant Finder but is on the RHS Horticultural Database) and it >gives some indication of the status of the name. Take another example, >going a bit off topic but using Graham's example of Helleborus Wester >Flisk Group, this is given on the Horticultural Database as only >tentatively accepted. That basically means that there is nothing >obviously wrong with the name but it has not been investigated in detail >enough by the RHS botanists to confirm that it has been validly >described somewhere. With over 4000 plant names added to the database >each year, I hope you can understand that the RHS botanists do not get >time to check that there is a proper description for every name on the >database. > >If the members are interested then I can highlight if there are any >particular issues on the APONAT minutes relevant to bulbous plants once >they have been published to the internet. Over the last year there have >been small discussions on Nothoscordum, Typhonium & Sauromatum, and >South American Oxalis. The most relevant minutes available on the >internet are probably 4 August 2005, where Merwilla & Scilla and >Leucojum & Acis were briefly discussed. > >As Graham says, in using the databases, if you feel there are aspects of >it that are incorrect then please do get in touch we me and I can ask >APONAT if they ought to consider changing it. > >Chris > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/754 - Release Date: >09/04/2007 22:59 > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Wed Apr 11 02:39:31 2007 Message-Id: <005501c77c04$26aeece0$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Finally, perhaps, on arums Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:39:26 +0100 Graham Rice's perhaps in the header was, perhaps, wise... I have been interested to find that a clone of arum italicum is under circulation as Grimshaw's Form, and to clarify its story have corresponded with Ellen Hornig of Seneca Hills Perennials who has been selling it http://www.senecahillperennials.com/index.php?page=arum. It seems that I sent it to her as 'dwarf form', which it isn't for her, although I think the original clump is relatively short in stature. Anyway, it has done well with her, increased in stature and she rates it better than 'White Winter'. The appellation Grimshaw's Form was never intended to be a cultivar name, and would be illegitimate in that format, as the word form may not appear in a cultivar name. Such temporary names are always dangerous, as they have a habit of sticking, and when some nomenclatural pedant comes along and says it is an illegit name everybody is displeased. My view is that if a plant is worth selling it is worth naming - both aspects needing long hard thought. I have therefore agreed with Ellen that it should be named 'Belldene', the name of my parents' house where the original grows, so please adjust labels accordingly. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Rice" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 8:14 PM Subject: [pbs] Finally, perhaps, on arums > I've just been out to look at the foliage of the various forms of A. > italicum to see how they've stood up to the rigours of the winter and > "spring" - so far, the one in the best condition is: Grimshaw's form! > > Graham Rice > Milford, PA > > -- From agoston.janos@citromail.hu Wed Apr 11 06:43:31 2007 Message-Id: <002b01c77c26$18637080$0d4afea9@gzw1jo1xwad0ctx> From: "Agoston Janos" Subject: Finally, perhaps, on arums Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:42:25 +0200 Oh, boy. They have got some (nearly all) nice specimen. Fortunately they are in the US, and they ship with pot... :( It is just not fair! ----- Original Message ----- From: John Grimshaw To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Finally, perhaps, on arums Graham Rice's perhaps in the header was, perhaps, wise... I have been interested to find that a clone of arum italicum is under circulation as Grimshaw's Form, and to clarify its story have corresponded with Ellen Hornig of Seneca Hills Perennials who has been selling it http://www.senecahillperennials.com/index.php?page=arum. It seems that I sent it to her as 'dwarf form', which it isn't for her, although I think the original clump is relatively short in stature. Anyway, it has done well with her, increased in stature and she rates it better than 'White Winter'. The appellation Grimshaw's Form was never intended to be a cultivar name, and would be illegitimate in that format, as the word form may not appear in a cultivar name. Such temporary names are always dangerous, as they have a habit of sticking, and when some nomenclatural pedant comes along and says it is an illegit name everybody is displeased. My view is that if a plant is worth selling it is worth naming - both aspects needing long hard thought. I have therefore agreed with Ellen that it should be named 'Belldene', the name of my parents' house where the original grows, so please adjust labels accordingly. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK OPEN DAYS 2007 Easter Monday 9 April, Arboretum Weekend 15-16 September Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Rice" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 8:14 PM Subject: [pbs] Finally, perhaps, on arums > I've just been out to look at the foliage of the various forms of A. > italicum to see how they've stood up to the rigours of the winter and > "spring" - so far, the one in the best condition is: Grimshaw's form! > > Graham Rice > Milford, PA > > -- _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From voltaire@islandnet.com Wed Apr 11 14:18:08 2007 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Wurmbea, Blandfordia, Bulbine pollination Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:17:51 -0700 Some fascinating information by Dr Glenda Vaughton whose research interests include: evolution and ecology of plant mating systems gender strategies in plants pollination biology and floral evolution the evolution of selfing from outcrossing Plants change their sexuality depending on their environment. Populations growing in dry areas where there isn't an assured lot of pollinators, whether insects or birds, are different from ones in wet areas. There are a few interesting pictures on this website http://www.une.edu.au/esnrm/staff/gvaughto.php Diane Whitehead From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Wed Apr 11 15:19:42 2007 Message-Id: <000001c77c6e$668bc030$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ipheion Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:19:59 -0400 About two weeks ago, while driving through the neighborhood, I noticed a garden where Ipheion uniflorum had naturalized into broad masses. There were probably over a thousand plants in bloom. I drove by again during the recent cold snap and didn't see flower color - I assumed that the display was over for the year. Today I passed by again and the display is even better than before. I've been watching this particular planting for many years - the display gets better yearly. No one has had much to say about this plant for awhile. If nothing else, it certainly seems to be one of those plants which give you your money's worth! The much larger cultivar 'Alberto Castillo' has been blooming in a cold frame here since late January. I'm looking forward to the time when my stock bulks up to the point where I'll feel safe turning some loose in the garden. This is a very handsome plant. I checked the wiki, and noticed that John Lonsdale's photo suggests that he grows it outside near a wall. Will it survive in the open, unprotected garden in zone 6? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where the early rising lilies and peonies don't seem to have been hurt by recent overnight freezes. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Wed Apr 11 16:01:51 2007 Message-Id: <000101c77c74$478445d0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Some old tulips Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 16:01:53 -0400 Last fall I splurged a bit on some of the antique tulips offered by Old House Gardens. Some of the cultivars obtained (such as Dillenburg and Keizerskroon) are sorts I grew years ago when they were regularly available in the trade. Another, Absalon, I last had in the late 1970s or early 1980s from the old Peter de Jager company. I still have photos of these old acquisitions, and it will be interesting to compare the newly acquired stocks when they bloom. One new acquisition has helped to reshape my understanding of the so-called single early tulips: finally, after a lifetime of knowing about the Duc van Tol (older books spell it Thol) tulips, there is one blooming in the garden. All that I had read about these did not prepare me for what actually bloomed in the garden. The word which comes to mind when I look at this is squat. I don't really mean that in a pejorative sense: the plant is low and broad and so is the flower. And it has the fragrance still found in some of the single early tulips. It's easy to see why the single early tulips quickly displaced the Ducs: the stems of the single earlies are just enough taller and the flowers are just enough bigger to make them much better suited to garden display. Now that I've seen a genuine Duc, I'm better prepared to accept the supplier's claim that the stocks provided under the name Keizerskroon are the real thing. I've had tulips under this name in the past on several occasions. The name persists in catalogs, probably because the genuine article is the only readily obtained eighteenth century tulip. The new Keizerskroon is blooming now, and it has a flower shape I had not noticed in the prior acquisitions: the base of the flower forms a deep bowl - and it's not a big flower. To believe that such ancient tulips still exist is hard for someone who lives in a climate such as this where most tulips - unless cared for very carefully - have a life span of about two years. And when I consider the tumultuous history of the Low Countries, it becomes even harder to believe. But there is a part of me that wants very much to believe it, and that part is very happy this week. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Mijnheer McKenney is spending a lot of time around the tulip beds. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From agoston.janos@citromail.hu Wed Apr 11 16:19:51 2007 Message-Id: <002901c77c76$9beaa5e0$0d4afea9@gzw1jo1xwad0ctx> From: "Agoston Janos" Subject: Ipheion Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:18:46 +0200 Dear Jim, Even better, It had survived me in a narow bed between concrete in -20°C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim McKenney To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:19 PM Subject: [pbs] Ipheion About two weeks ago, while driving through the neighborhood, I noticed a garden where Ipheion uniflorum had naturalized into broad masses. There were probably over a thousand plants in bloom. I drove by again during the recent cold snap and didn't see flower color - I assumed that the display was over for the year. Today I passed by again and the display is even better than before. I've been watching this particular planting for many years - the display gets better yearly. No one has had much to say about this plant for awhile. If nothing else, it certainly seems to be one of those plants which give you your money's worth! The much larger cultivar 'Alberto Castillo' has been blooming in a cold frame here since late January. I'm looking forward to the time when my stock bulks up to the point where I'll feel safe turning some loose in the garden. This is a very handsome plant. I checked the wiki, and noticed that John Lonsdale's photo suggests that he grows it outside near a wall. Will it survive in the open, unprotected garden in zone 6? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where the early rising lilies and peonies don't seem to have been hurt by recent overnight freezes. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From kelly@irvincentral.com Wed Apr 11 17:19:56 2007 Message-Id: <461D50EB.1030807@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: Some old tulips Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 16:19:39 -0500 Jim: My Duc van Tol were short, too, but I enjoyed the display very much. Jim McKenney wrote: > One new acquisition has helped to reshape my understanding of the so-called > single early tulips: finally, after a lifetime of knowing about the Duc van > Tol (older books spell it Thol) tulips, there is one blooming in the garden. Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b mailto:kelly@irvincentral.com http://www.irvincentral.com/ From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Apr 11 18:52:11 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Ipheion Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:15:45 -0500 Dear Jim Mc and all - I thought we sort of beat Ipheion to "death" over various discussions. One recollection was that I never knew of any self sewing in colder climates. I assume these are akin to 'Wisley Blue' or typical unflorum. I wonder if this is the result of multiple clones to start with? Are commercial stocks all propagated clonally? Do I need seedlings to encourage its weediness? As for hardiness of 'Alberto Castillo'. I have it outdoors for years and it is the best and extremely hardy. A no-brainer. All the uniflorums are hardy here except for 'Rolf Fiedler' and 'Froyle Mill' which may not be uniflorum. I wouldn't bother with 'alba' since Alberto is the best. I have not yet tried 'Jessie' a new dark blue, but will when I can get a few bulbs in my hands. Yet I still see an occasional reference to their lack of hardiness in my zone. Alas. best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From agoston.janos@citromail.hu Wed Apr 11 18:40:46 2007 Message-Id: <00a101c77c8a$471ccf70$0d4afea9@gzw1jo1xwad0ctx> From: "Agoston Janos" Subject: Some old tulips Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 00:39:33 +0200 My favourite subject: tulips. As far as I know the Classified List and International Register of Tulip Names (1981, -the date before I born... funny to read such an old book) says that Grand Duc is the synonym of Keizerskroon. That is also in Jan Dix's latest catalogue. The big thing is in Holland there is a monthly 65 mm rainfall average, tulips grow in sand (zand in het Netherlands) so that is why they can grow even 17/+ bulbs. They feel there very well. In Hungary the commonly sold 10/11 bulbs lasts only 2 years, (we have 45 mm average rainfall). Here the professionals say tulips can be grown for 3 years, than the stock degrades by virus infection. Well as there is usually 2-5% (depends on supplyer and variety) infected bulbs from Holland we can grow them only 1 season, which is quite short. In the last years tulip growing semms to end here. Duc van Tol: There are several clones under this name. In some years they may come back in cultivation, cause they are exhibited now in fairs e.g. Keukenhof. Short stem: It is caused by the lack of proper rainfall here, winters are cold enough... ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim McKenney To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 10:01 PM Subject: [pbs] Some old tulips Last fall I splurged a bit on some of the antique tulips offered by Old House Gardens. Some of the cultivars obtained (such as Dillenburg and Keizerskroon) are sorts I grew years ago when they were regularly available in the trade. Another, Absalon, I last had in the late 1970s or early 1980s from the old Peter de Jager company. I still have photos of these old acquisitions, and it will be interesting to compare the newly acquired stocks when they bloom. One new acquisition has helped to reshape my understanding of the so-called single early tulips: finally, after a lifetime of knowing about the Duc van Tol (older books spell it Thol) tulips, there is one blooming in the garden. All that I had read about these did not prepare me for what actually bloomed in the garden. The word which comes to mind when I look at this is squat. I don't really mean that in a pejorative sense: the plant is low and broad and so is the flower. And it has the fragrance still found in some of the single early tulips. It's easy to see why the single early tulips quickly displaced the Ducs: the stems of the single earlies are just enough taller and the flowers are just enough bigger to make them much better suited to garden display. Now that I've seen a genuine Duc, I'm better prepared to accept the supplier's claim that the stocks provided under the name Keizerskroon are the real thing. I've had tulips under this name in the past on several occasions. The name persists in catalogs, probably because the genuine article is the only readily obtained eighteenth century tulip. The new Keizerskroon is blooming now, and it has a flower shape I had not noticed in the prior acquisitions: the base of the flower forms a deep bowl - and it's not a big flower. To believe that such ancient tulips still exist is hard for someone who lives in a climate such as this where most tulips - unless cared for very carefully - have a life span of about two years. And when I consider the tumultuous history of the Low Countries, it becomes even harder to believe. But there is a part of me that wants very much to believe it, and that part is very happy this week. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Mijnheer McKenney is spending a lot of time around the tulip beds. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From dejager@bulbargence.com Thu Apr 12 01:57:31 2007 Message-Id: From: Bulbargence Subject: Ipheion Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:57:28 +0200 Dear all, Living in zone 8-9, I am o refrence on hardiness. But I resow many of the cultivars/species with varying results: Alberto Castillo: mostly true (with some interesting light bleu forms) Chorlotte Bishop: only 25% is pink Froyle Mill: 90% true Rolf Fiedler: 100% true and also multiply rapidly by stolons. Jim in sandy soil it is potentially "weedy" worth a try in colder climates. Greetings Lauw de Jager http://www.bulbargence.com South of France (zone 8 Olivier) > One recollection was that I never knew of any self sewing in > colder climates. I assume these are akin to 'Wisley Blue' or typical > unflorum. I wonder if this is the result of multiple clones to start > with? Are commercial stocks all propagated clonally? > Do I need seedlings to encourage its weediness? From msittner@mcn.org Thu Apr 12 10:37:22 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070412065251.033c01b8@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Ipheion Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:25:30 -0700 Hi, Since Lauw and I both live in a Mediterranean climate I was very interested in his comments. I've found some differences in the Ipheions I have in the ground versus those in pots. The species or maybe Wisley Blue I have in the ground comes back every year and has a nice bloom period. They don't expand too much, but for years in a raised bed I was trying to grow vegetables in this plant was a problem even though I tried to dig every one out I could find each spring before the vegetables went in. It increases dramatically. Last year I didn't plant there and this year I put pots on it and there are plants up and blooming between the pots. Alberto once wrote not to let the roots dry out if you wanted them to do well. I'm sure that happens in my climate for those in the ground without a problem and also some stored in pots. One year I tried watering one of the pots over the summer to test his theory and found that to be an inhibitor in my climate instead of a help. I have two white forms, one given to me unnamed from a friend in the southern Hemisphere, and one I grew from seed from NARGS collected from the cultivar 'Alberto Castillo'. Both are very long blooming in containers and increase quickly. For instance the one from the southern hemisphere was blooming from Feb into April and the form I grew from the seed this year bloomed even longer, from November to March. However, when I've planted either of them in the ground they have virtually disappeared. I have another dark form I received unnamed and it is a good bloomer too. Rolf Fiedler on the other hand is a short bloomer if at all. It has expanded a bit from my initial purchase so I now have it blooming in a container and in one of my raised beds (in a container, but submerged). Last year it bloomed briefly the end of February into March and this year not at all. I've been very disappointed in it as a lover of blue flowers. I wouldn't want it to expand in my garden if it isn't going to bloom even if it is a nice color. I'm not sure what to make of these observations which don't make a lot of sense to me. I've not picked up the common thread. Mary Sue From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Apr 12 11:09:47 2007 Message-Id: <000001c77d14$a75f5850$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ipheion Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:10:04 -0400 Mary Sue wrote: " Rolf Fiedler on the other hand is a short bloomer if at all. It has expanded a bit from my initial purchase so I now have it blooming in a container and in one of my raised beds (in a container, but submerged)." I think I see the problem here, Mary Sue. They really don't need to be under water! : ) Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I wonder what cream of Ipheion soup might be like. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From voltaire@islandnet.com Thu Apr 12 15:59:22 2007 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Amaryllidae seeds at Silverhill today Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:59:00 -0700 Wow! Ammocharis, Crossyne, 6 species of Brunsvigia - all saying "sow immediately". Now I have to hit the books, or Google Images to see which ones I like. Diane Whitehead From dejager@bulbargence.com Thu Apr 12 16:09:54 2007 Message-Id: From: Bulbargence Subject: Ipheion Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:09:49 +0200 Dear mry Sue and all, This very puzzling as you live in the same type of climat. Here it is one of best blue "bulbs" with our sandy soil is becoming close to be naturalised and flowering over six weeks in all sorts of situations. All forms and Ipheion species make plenty of seed.. Jim Waddick (Kansas) wrote on Rolf Fiedler: I do not recall ever even seeing a seed pod here. There must something in our European mediterranean climat or soil which makes the difference. I have no idea what is the cause. Any body has any suggestions? Greetings Lauw de Jager http://www.bulbargence.com South of France (zone 8 Olivier) Coord. Geogr.(GPS): 43°42' 43" N 4° 32' 12" E >Mary sue wrote: Rolf Fiedler on the other hand is a short bloomer if at all. It has > expanded a bit from my initial purchase so I now have it blooming in a > container and in one of my raised beds From totototo@telus.net Thu Apr 12 17:59:04 2007 Message-Id: <20070412215902.2E31PLJXEQ@priv-edtnaa06.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Ipheion Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:57:44 -0700 The common Ipheions we have here in Victoria, BC include... 1. something we might call the type (as far as color is concerned), a pale, washy blue, something like milk in water. I don't grow this form, but it's naturalized in some gardens, forming vast sheets of blue-tinged white. It seems to prefer sites that offer good winter drainage and go bone dry in summer; thin soil on rock is one example. 2. 'Wisley Blue' with its pronounced blue tinge, but it's not a clear blue. It does very well in a fairly damp semi-shaded position in my own garden. 3. In some gardens there is an unnamed white form that has obviously persisted for years. There's one such garden down the street from me; I figure the site will be redeveloped sooner or later, so I've several times stolen a few tubers from by the sidewalk, but they've never established in my garden. This form seems to be more demanding of sun and drainage than 'Wisley Blue'. I have found 'White Star' and 'Rolf Fiedler' in local garden centers as packaged bulbs sold for fall planting. I also received 'Rolf Fiedler' fifteen years or so ago from Don Elick. I've guarded the Elick gift in a pot ever since, but the commercial ones bought in fall 2005 went straight into the ground. It's too early to assess their in-ground performance, but such flowers as they produced last year certainly looked like what I had from Don Elick: a good clear blue significantly deeper and purer than 'Wisley Blue'. (The correct name for 'Rolf Fiedler' seems to be Tristagma peregrinans. The cultivar name remains valid.) Seed exchanges have given me 'Froyle Mill' and 'Alberto Castillo'. The 'Froyle Mill' seedlings were quite variable, ranging from the dark wine purple that I beieve is characteristic of the real thing through much paler shades. These seedlings did very well in my heavy winter-wet soil. At the moment they're all in a flat so I can sort them out and segregate the good purples. My seedlings of 'Alberto Castillo' are only now reaching flowering size so I can't say anything about them. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Apr 12 18:28:47 2007 Message-Id: <000001c77d51$fb8663a0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ipheion 'Alberto Castillo' Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 18:29:05 -0400 At least two postings in this current Ipheion thread have mentioned seeds of 'Alberto Castillo'. Does anyone know if the original 'Alberto Castillo' was meant to be a clone? Was it a selection from a wild population of white-flowered plants? If it was a selection from a wild white-flowered population, then it might be time for the taxonomists to take another look at the rank of that population. If it was meant to be a clone, then I hope those of you raising them from seed do not distribute them as 'Alberto Castillo'. Or is that horse already out of the barn? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Gelsemium sempervirens is sweetly blooming. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From voltaire@islandnet.com Thu Apr 12 18:42:25 2007 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Ipheion Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:42:09 -0700 Rodger Whitlock, totototo@telus.net wrote: The common Ipheions we have here in Victoria, BC include... ==================== And I, also in Victoria, can't grow them despite years of trying. I've been trying to figure out why. The places I notice them are ungardened - under oaks at an old house, or along a recently-widened road edge. It seems that if they manage to survive, then they survive on their own. Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8, cool Mediterranean climate mild rainy winters, mild dry summers From janemcgary@earthlink.net Thu Apr 12 19:02:26 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20070412155722.02c55078@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Ipheion Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:03:32 -0700 The only Ipheion that has survived in the open garden here in cold, wet western Oregon is 'Alberto Castillo'. I have the real thing, with provenience -- just two gardens away from Alberto himself. I don't care for 'Wisley Blue' and 'Rolf Fiedler' but I like 'Froyle Mill' (purchased from Avon Bulbs in England) well enough in the frame, where I pay attention to watering it in summer. It dies when I put it in the garden. Near it are two other color forms. 'Charlotte Bishop' is pink, but unfortunately, it's the usual muddy pink seen in pink forms of normally blue flowers. It is vigorous and free-flowering. The other is 'Jessie', given to me by Wim de Goede, who got it from the originator, Tony Hall of Kew. It is quite different, being smaller than any of the others (stems only about 3 inches high), and the flowers (smaller than those of I. uniflorum) are nearly true dark blue. It has increased well in 3 years from a small single bulb, filling a 6-inch pot. I think I can't sell it, since it is under "grower's rights', but I see it's on Jan Dix's wholesale list this year, so it may appear in North America sometime soon. I may try a little in the rock garden next year. Jane McGary NOrthwestern Oregon, USA From sabepafronta@yahoo.com Fri Apr 13 00:45:31 2007 Message-Id: <314691.74448.qm@web38705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Jacob Knecht Subject: Amaryllidae seeds at Silverhill today Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Hi Diane, Thank you so much for posting on this topic because I didn't get Rachel's availability email in my inbox. I went and checked my junk mail folder and it was in there. Whew! I have been anticipating this list and would have been so sad to miss it. Aloha, Jacob Knecht Honolulu Hawai`i http://www.flickr.com/photos/morabeza79/ --- Diane Whitehead wrote: > Wow! Ammocharis, Crossyne, 6 species of Brunsvigia > - all saying > "sow immediately". Now I have to hit the books, or > Google Images to > see which ones I like. > > > Diane Whitehead > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From DaveKarn@aol.com Fri Apr 13 01:25:51 2007 Message-Id: From: DaveKarn@aol.com Subject: Ipheion Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 01:25:45 EDT In a message dated 4/12/2007 3:42:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, voltaire@islandnet.com writes: And I, also in Victoria, can't grow them despite years of trying. I've been trying to figure out why. The places I notice them are ungardened - under oaks at an old house, or along a recently widened Road edge. It seems that if they manage to survive, then they Survive on their own. Diane ~ Here in the Willamette Valley of Oregon, all of those mentioned grow quite well, often setting seed. Although, unlike Law, I've never noticed any seed set on 'Rolf Fielder.' Most of mine grow under my deciduous azaleas and get watered somewhat as I water the shrubs in the dry heat of summer. Apparently, they can occasionally exhibit have some exasperating quirks, as a large clump of Albert Castillo (originally from Jack Elliott some 15 years ago) did not appear one spring after having been a mass of flowers the previous years. I despaired at having lost something that had considerable value to me because of the source. Then, inexplicably, the patch showed up again a year later as if nothing had happened and just as floriferous as ever. Go figure! I have heard that some of them also like being warm and dry during the summer. I don't know as I've never tried that, having been successful just the way they are. Odd that you'd be having difficulty given that our growing conditions are so similar. As for these being "pure" clonal forms, I'd question 'Wisley Blue', as it seems to have several shades mixed in and it does seed about each year. The 'Alberto Castillo' and 'Charlotte Bishop' both came from the garden of Jack Elliot a number of years ago and I am assuming that they are the real thing. 'Rolf Fiedler' is so distinctive that any variation in its uniform shade of clear blue would be immediately noticeable, I would think. Dave Karnstedt Silverton, Oregon, USA Warm, dry summers; cool -> cold moist winters. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Apr 13 03:03:28 2007 Message-Id: <58CB723E-3E03-493E-BA8A-F184E33B6A6C@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Amaryllidae seeds at Silverhill today Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:03:28 -0700 Thanks from me, too. From time to time AT&T Yahoo starts throwing all my emails from South Africa into its junk area and when I realize it, I have to go rescue all of them and tell their spam detector that it's not junk. It then behaves for about 6 weeks before doing it again. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USA, USDA Zone 10a On Apr 12, 2007, at 9:45 PM, Jacob Knecht wrote: > Hi Diane, > > Thank you so much for posting on this topic because I > didn't get Rachel's availability email in my inbox. I > went and checked my junk mail folder and it was in > there. Whew! I have been anticipating this list and > would have been so sad to miss it. > > Aloha, > > Jacob Knecht From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Apr 13 03:25:46 2007 Message-Id: <31EC8067-805C-4479-9E2A-1DD9169881D7@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Ipheion Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:25:46 -0700 As I mentioned the last time we discussed this, Ipheions of all types, as well as the related Nothoscordums, behave like rabbits for me here in So. Calif. (In fact if I were more diligent at re-potting them, I should be sending Dell plenty of offsets every 2-3 years...) Lauw, I've never been to the South of France. But everything I've seen about its weather and what grows there, especially near the Mediterranean like you are, indicates to me that it's probably more like central or southern California than it is like where Mary Sue lives. She is in a very cool, much wetter USDA Zone 10a as compared to my much warmer and dryer Zone 10a. BTW, given all the things you grow outside, I'm almost certain that you are not in Zone 8. At minimum you are in a Zone 9 climate and most likely Zone 9b. I grow the plain species, Wisley Blue (which to me is virtually indistinguishable from the straight species form), Alba (from Jacques Amand long ago), Alberto Castillo, Froyle Mill, Charlotte Bishop, Rolf Fiedler, and this year I have some Jessies. (BTW, Jane, Brent & Becky's offered them this winter so they've appeared in North America already.) I also have a nice lavender-flowered one that appeared as a seedling a couple of years ago that I've put into its own pot so it can start doing the rabbit thing. I also got o.p. seeds of pink forms from the Archibald's a couple of years ago and they started blooming this year. I think they are from Charlotte Bishop open pollinated and back crossed with each other. There were a variety of different shades of pink, some more intense than Charlotte Bishop, and a few that were a truer pink than C.B. is. I'm going to re-pot them this summer when after they go dormant so I can select and multiply them next winter. I rarely notice the seeds pods because they do an almost peanut like thing where a thick stem appears where the flower was and curves downward until the pod lays on the soil surface under all the leaves. Usually I only notice when one of these downcurving pods happens to land in an adjacent pot and the next year volunteers appear at the edge of the new pot. I wonder if Alberto Castillo is a different species (or hybrid?) as well because it is much more vigorous than any of my other types including the straight species form, and the foliage is much bluer than any of the others. It stands out as different, much more so than Rolf Fiedler does. The Alba form looks just like most of the uniflorum cultivars except that it's white. The leaves are the same shade of green as all of them as well. If you don't like Rolf Fiedler (Why?!), you're not going to like Jessie either because it's fairly similar, the color being slightly darker and slightly more intense than R.F. (but still not anything like Tecophilaea cyanocrocus!). I suspect that regions with warm summers, whether wet or dry, say Zone 8 and higher, will be able to grow most Ipheions almost as weeds. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USA, USDA Zone 10a From ron_redding@hotmail.com Fri Apr 13 05:38:24 2007 Message-Id: From: "Ronald Redding" Subject: Amaryllidae seeds at Silverhill today Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:38:23 +1000 Diane Thanks from me too, I have finally got some summer growing nerine coming. You had better not be spending too much time looking for your books. All the world will probably be ordering thanks to your "heads up". Kind Regards and Best Wishes Ron Redding Hervey Bay Australia >From: Lee Poulsen >Reply-To: Pacific Bulb Society >To: Pacific Bulb Society >Subject: Re: [pbs] Amaryllidae seeds at Silverhill today >Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 00:03:28 -0700 > >Thanks from me, too. From time to time AT&T Yahoo starts throwing all >my emails from South Africa into its junk area and when I realize it, >I have to go rescue all of them and tell their spam detector that >it's not junk. It then behaves for about 6 weeks before doing it again. > >--Lee Poulsen >Pasadena, California, USA, USDA Zone 10a > > > >On Apr 12, 2007, at 9:45 PM, Jacob Knecht wrote: > > > Hi Diane, > > > > Thank you so much for posting on this topic because I > > didn't get Rachel's availability email in my inbox. I > > went and checked my junk mail folder and it was in > > there. Whew! I have been anticipating this list and > > would have been so sad to miss it. > > > > Aloha, > > > > Jacob Knecht > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php _________________________________________________________________ Advertisement: Visit LetsShop.com to WIN Fabulous Books Weekly http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eletsshop%2Ecom%2FLetsShopBookClub%2Ftabid%2F866%2FDefault%2Easpx&_t=751480117&_r=HM_Tagline_books&_m=EXT From kelly@irvincentral.com Fri Apr 13 08:11:28 2007 Message-Id: <461F7356.4010904@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: Ipheion 'Alberto Castillo' Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 07:11:02 -0500 In relation to Jim M's comments, and tied to the BX, might I suggest every member donating variety seed to the BX include "x self" or "x OP" (OP = open pollination). "OP" or some other descriptor with the same meaning would be the best choice, unless the provider specified they isolated and guaranteed self-pollination or gathered the seed from an isolated population (then use "x self"). Pollinators can travel long distances, and do. Example: Ipheion 'Alberto Castillo' x OP "OP" will include self-pollination, which will be the most likely occurrence in self compatible situations, but includes any possibility of stray pollen from compatible species or varieties. In most species situations, no two plants are identical, although the differences can be very subtle, so variety names can be attached to more robust selections from a population. Nevertheless, their seed will still reflect the variation within a population, even without contamination from other species or varieties. In other words, that particular variety can only be perpetuated asexually (bulblets, cormlets, cuttings, etc.). In the case of species, it could be redundant to include the extra identifiers, unless the distributor has a concern that fertilization could have occurred via other species or varieties, or viewed from a different perspective, the distributor wishes to assure the recipient s/he took measures to guarantee self-pollination. Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b mailto:kelly@irvincentral.com http://www.irvincentral.com/ Jim McKenney wrote: > At least two postings in this current Ipheion thread have mentioned seeds of > 'Alberto Castillo'. > > Does anyone know if the original 'Alberto Castillo' was meant to be a clone? > Was it a selection from a wild population of white-flowered plants? > > If it was a selection from a wild white-flowered population, then it might > be time for the taxonomists to take another look at the rank of that > population. > > If it was meant to be a clone, then I hope those of you raising them from > seed do not distribute them as 'Alberto Castillo'. Or is that horse already > out of the barn? > > > Jim McKenney > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Gelsemium sempervirens > is sweetly blooming. > > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From kelly@irvincentral.com Fri Apr 13 09:23:45 2007 Message-Id: <461F844E.1070405@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: Amaryllidae seeds at Silverhill today Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:23:26 -0500 Yes, Diane. Thank you from me, too -- NOT! I just spent a lot of money I shouldn't have!!!!! Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b mailto:kelly@irvincentral.com http://www.irvincentral.com/ Jacob Knecht wrote: > Hi Diane, > > Thank you so much for posting on this topic because I > didn't get Rachel's availability email in my inbox. I > went and checked my junk mail folder and it was in > there. Whew! I have been anticipating this list and > would have been so sad to miss it. > > Aloha, > > Jacob Knecht > Honolulu Hawai`i > http://www.flickr.com/photos/morabeza79/ > > --- Diane Whitehead wrote: > > >> Wow! Ammocharis, Crossyne, 6 species of Brunsvigia >> - all saying >> "sow immediately". Now I have to hit the books, or >> Google Images to >> see which ones I like. >> >> >> Diane Whitehead >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From kelly@irvincentral.com Fri Apr 13 09:32:59 2007 Message-Id: <461F867D.8040406@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: Ipheion 'Alberto Castillo' Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:32:45 -0500 > > In the case of species, it could be redundant to include the extra > identifiers, unless the distributor has a concern that fertilization > could have occurred via other species or varieties, or viewed from a > different perspective, the distributor wishes to assure the recipient > s/he took measures to guarantee self-pollination. > To continue on this... I thought I might explain, with an example, why I included the last paragraph to this related post. In the past, when I have been able to contribute Lycoris seed that are species, I still included "x OP", because my beds were frequented by hawk moths (I think that's what they were) and hummingbirds. Since I often had overlapping bloom from one species to the next, I thought it best not to infer complete self-pollination or population pollination. Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b mailto:kelly@irvincentral.com http://www.irvincentral.com/ From msittner@mcn.org Fri Apr 13 10:38:44 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070413070459.034c0f90@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Ipheion Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 07:38:18 -0700 I've been interested to read that not everyone finds all the varieties easy to grow. I don't think I'm in Zone 10. I'm sure I'm Zone 9. But as we have said that doesn't mean a lot. My Zone 9 is much cooler in summer than a lot of zones with lower numbers. Perhaps the problem I have is my cool summers relative to where they grow naturally and I'm talking both day and night temperatures. A lot of the South American plants I grow and even some of the South African ones like it warmer in summer than it is here. I never knew the greenhouse we put in would mostly serve as a place for bulbs to stay warmer in summer. That wasn't the intention. But if Lee finds they grow really well for him that might be the difference and also why they do better for Lauw as well. So it could be a combination of things, not just my wetter darker winters. And since 'Rolf Fiedler' is considered a different genus and species, having a different experience with it would make sense. Does anyone know what conditions it had where ever it was discovered? I see seed pods on my white Ipheions and the pale blue ones that are happy in my summers too, but as Lee says they curl down close to the ground so it's easy to miss them. I don't sell anything I grow, but always understood that seedlings of 'Alberto Castillo' would no longer deserve the cultivar name. I think the man Alberto Castillo wishes people weren't growing on the seeds of any of the cultivars so they will remain pure, but I don't know how you'd stop that from happening. You'd hope that no one would sell seedlings under the cultivar names, but if the seedlings grow well and multiply well and get shared amongst friends who don't understand the naming system, as Jim McKenney suggested, the horse may already be out of the barn. As for Kelly's request for people to label their seed for the BX, explaining how they are pollinated, it's a great idea. But we've not even been able to get people to label their contributions as evergreen, winter growing , or summer growing as we hoped. For awhile we'd have help after the fact with that, but not lately. Sometimes there is very little information about the contributions at all. Dell passes on what information is supplied and often there will be something on the wiki. I'd guess most of what we get is open pollinated. It's a little like asking pbs list members not to include the whole message in their replies. You can always ask, but that doesn't mean you'll get compliance. Mary Sue From dejager@bulbargence.com Fri Apr 13 12:01:20 2007 Message-Id: From: Bulbargence Subject: Ipheion 'Alberto Castillo' Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 18:01:09 +0200 Jim, They are still here, but they have to go next summer. I just had a look at the patches with hundreds of bulbs of the sept 2005 sowings. Still in full slower Alberto Castillo: mostly true (with some interesting light bleu forms) Chorlotte Bishop: only 25% is pink Froyle Mill: 90% true Impossible to select out the rogues. So I will sell them off this summer at prices defying all competition (for naturalising) labeled with, as Kelly suggested, "open pollenated" offspring. Greetings Lauw de Jager http://www.bulbargence.com South of France (zone 8--9? Olivier) Coord. Geogr.(GPS): 43°42' 43" N 4° 32' 12" E > you raising them from > seed do not distribute them as 'Alberto Castillo'. Or is that horse already > out of the barn? From totototo@telus.net Fri Apr 13 13:19:23 2007 Message-Id: <20070413171922.EEFDG04RQ4@priv-edmwaa06.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Ipheion Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:18:50 -0700 On 13 Apr 07, at 1:25, DaveKarn@aol.com wrote: > ...a large clump of Albert Castillo... did not appear one spring > after having been a mass of flowers the previous years. I > despaired at having lost something that had considerable value to > me because of the source. Then, inexplicably, the patch showed up > again a year later as if nothing had happened and just as > floriferous as ever. Go figure! A possible explanation is implicit in what follows: I have the tetramerous form of the bright yellow "Beauverdia sellowiana", aka "Ipheion sellowianum", now considered (iirc) Nothoscordum sellowianum. As this also came to me from Don Elick, now many years ago, I value it greatly. I have always kept it out of doors with only slight winter protection, at best a covered coldframe. One winter ten or fifteen years ago, we had a serious cold spell, as we sometimes get thanks to outflows through river valleys of icy Arctic air from the interior of the continent. My poor Beauverdia/ Ipheion/Nothoscordum got caught in it and froze quite solid. [Memory fails me, but I think I either had forgotten to cover the coldframe or had left the pot simply sitting out in the open, possibly with overhead protection from rain.] The plant stopped growing. For some years, every spring I would unpot it and examine the tubers. The larger ones (size of a garden pea) remained sound, while the smaller ones gradually disappeared. But there was no active growth whatsoever. No foliage, no root development, year after year. As everyone reading can imagine, despair reigned, as the bulbs were irreplaceable. Somewhere on the internet, I ran across a mention of the importance of warmth to South American amaryllids and decided to experiment. I had nothing to lose the way things were going with fewer bulbs left every year. I took the pot into the house and put it by a large south- facing window where it would bake in full sun nearly all day long and the soil would warm up much more than outside. (Remember that we have quite cool summers here -- air temperature over 70F is unusual and cause for the population shedding all the clothes the law allows, or even more.) The experiment was a success and the Beauverdia/Ipheion/Nothoscordum started to grow actively. Ever since I have been careful to give it winter protection from sub-freezing temperatures and it remains actively alive, though it doesn't flower all that often. I speculate (emphasis on *speculate*) that this plant is native to a fairly warm climate, that when exposed to serious cold it goes dormant and the dormancy can only be broken by exposure to warmth -- 70F being insufficient. A patch of a wild ipheion (or relative!) that goes dormant for a season then returns in full vigor after a year below ground may simply be reacting to a spell of unusually cold weather in a normally- warm climate. One infers that the native habitat, though warm, has infrequent spells of much colder weather than normal, and this behavior is an evolutionary adaptation allowing survival through short periods (several years even) of lower temperatures than normal. I await comments from Alberto Castillo on the subject. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From tony@plantdelights.com Fri Apr 13 15:01:32 2007 Message-Id: <461FD39D.3050900@plantdelights.com> From: Tony Avent Subject: Ipheion sellowiana Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:01:49 -0400 Roger: I think you are right about it loving heat. We're quite a bit hotter than you in summer and colder in winter, but Nothoscordum sellowianum is one of our favorite bulbs. We have ours planted in a full sun rock berm (west-facing slope), amended with small gravel...no winter protection. I don't think we have dropped below 8 degrees F since we have grown it. I have also tried it in part day sun, but the results were less than satisfactory. It flowers constantly from January through March. It spreads very slowly and seems to be completely sterile. We tried crossing it with N. dialystemon both ways and got no seed set. I believe what is in the trade under these two names is all the same species. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent totototo@telus.net wrote: > On 13 Apr 07, at 1:25, DaveKarn@aol.com wrote: > > >> ...a large clump of Albert Castillo... did not appear one spring >> after having been a mass of flowers the previous years. I >> despaired at having lost something that had considerable value to >> me because of the source. Then, inexplicably, the patch showed up >> again a year later as if nothing had happened and just as >> floriferous as ever. Go figure! >> > > A possible explanation is implicit in what follows: > > I have the tetramerous form of the bright yellow "Beauverdia > sellowiana", aka "Ipheion sellowianum", now considered (iirc) > Nothoscordum sellowianum. As this also came to me from Don Elick, now > many years ago, I value it greatly. I have always kept it out of > doors with only slight winter protection, at best a covered coldframe. > > One winter ten or fifteen years ago, we had a serious cold spell, as > we sometimes get thanks to outflows through river valleys of icy > Arctic air from the interior of the continent. My poor Beauverdia/ > Ipheion/Nothoscordum got caught in it and froze quite solid. [Memory > fails me, but I think I either had forgotten to cover the coldframe > or had left the pot simply sitting out in the open, possibly with > overhead protection from rain.] > > The plant stopped growing. For some years, every spring I would unpot > it and examine the tubers. The larger ones (size of a garden pea) > remained sound, while the smaller ones gradually disappeared. But > there was no active growth whatsoever. > > No foliage, no root development, year after year. As everyone reading > can imagine, despair reigned, as the bulbs were irreplaceable. > > Somewhere on the internet, I ran across a mention of the importance > of warmth to South American amaryllids and decided to experiment. I > had nothing to lose the way things were going with fewer bulbs left > every year. I took the pot into the house and put it by a large south- > facing window where it would bake in full sun nearly all day long and > the soil would warm up much more than outside. (Remember that we have > quite cool summers here -- air temperature over 70F is unusual and > cause for the population shedding all the clothes the law allows, or > even more.) > > The experiment was a success and the Beauverdia/Ipheion/Nothoscordum > started to grow actively. Ever since I have been careful to give it > winter protection from sub-freezing temperatures and it remains > actively alive, though it doesn't flower all that often. > > I speculate (emphasis on *speculate*) that this plant is native to a > fairly warm climate, that when exposed to serious cold it goes > dormant and the dormancy can only be broken by exposure to warmth -- > 70F being insufficient. > > > A patch of a wild ipheion (or relative!) that goes dormant for a > season then returns in full vigor after a year below ground may > simply be reacting to a spell of unusually cold weather in a normally- > warm climate. > > One infers that the native habitat, though warm, has infrequent > spells of much colder weather than normal, and this behavior is an > evolutionary adaptation allowing survival through short periods > (several years even) of lower temperatures than normal. > > I await comments from Alberto Castillo on the subject. > > > From john@johnlonsdale.net Fri Apr 13 15:11:32 2007 Message-Id: <004301c77dfe$ec6cd8b0$6501a8c0@XPS400> From: "John T Lonsdale" Subject: Ipheion sellowiana Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:07:03 -0400 "We have ours planted in a full sun rock berm (west-facing slope), amended with small gravel...no winter protection. I don't think we have dropped below 8 degrees F since we have grown it." Tony - how much moisture will this location have in summer? Thanks, John John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Apr 13 15:40:04 2007 Message-Id: <32F4EDE0-21C2-40E6-A0F3-408689A64459@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Ipheion/Tristagma 'Rolf Fiedler' Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:39:56 -0700 On Apr 12, 2007, at 2:57 PM, totototo@telus.net wrote: > (The correct > name for 'Rolf Fiedler' seems to be Tristagma peregrinans. The > cultivar name remains valid.) > I've seen this name given before. What are the arguments for placing 'Rolf Fiedler' in the genus Tristagma rather than in Ipheion? Both its bulbs, leaves, and flowers are so similar to I. uniflorum that it's difficult to distinguish until the flowers open. I would think that these two are what I would call sister species. Otherwise, I would wonder why I. uniflorum isn't also place in the genus Tristagma. More generally, I thought Tristagma was mostly a Chilean/Andean Argentine genus that looks very similar to Ipheions. I know I'm going out on a limb here, but just as Ravenna is claiming (I believe) that Rhodophiala bifida and related Argentine/Uruguayan species shouldn't be in the same genus as the Chilean and Andean Argentine Rhodophialas (which I tend to agree with not that I've seen and grown some of both), I think the Chilean and Andean Tristagmas ought to be in a different (but related?) genus to all the Ipheions including 'Rolf Fiedler'. The one thing that seems to tie them together more closely is that despite having a mainly wet warm summer and drier cool winter on the eastern half of southern South America, both the Ipheions and the Rhodophiala bifida clan still go dormant during the summer and grow during the winter as is typical with the mediterranean-climate Tristagmas and Rhodophialas of the western half of southern South America (aka Chile) which get no rain in summer at all. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USA, USDA Zone 10a From aaron_floden@yahoo.com Fri Apr 13 16:20:13 2007 Message-Id: <340969.82044.qm@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: aaron floden Subject: Ipheion/Tristagma Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 13:20:11 -0700 (PDT) The latest name in use for Ipheion uniflorum is also Tristagma. It seems all the Ipheion are subsumed into Tristagma. Aaron Floden KSC Herbarium, KS --- Lee Poulsen wrote: > I've seen this name given before. What are the > arguments for placing > 'Rolf Fiedler' in the genus Tristagma rather than in > Ipheion? Both > its bulbs, leaves, and flowers are so similar to I. > uniflorum that > it's difficult to distinguish until the flowers > open. I would think > that these two are what I would call sister species. > Otherwise, I > would wonder why I. uniflorum isn't also place in > the genus Tristagma. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From DaveKarn@aol.com Fri Apr 13 16:21:35 2007 Message-Id: From: DaveKarn@aol.com Subject: Ipheion sellowiana Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:21:27 EDT I have the tetramerous form of the bright yellow "Beauverdia sellowiana", aka "Ipheion sellowianum", now considered (iirc) Nothoscordum sellowianum. Rodger ~ This is what I have always had for B/I/N sellowiana. Am I to assume there is another form with six tepals, rather than eight? For me, this one seems to grow well on neglect! I grow many things in one gallon black plastic nursery "cans" that are submerged to their rims in the indigenous soil, often more for convenience than anything else (one never seems to able to make enough time for everything!!). In general, this pot planting (because most of it consists of daffodils/seed/seedlings) is kept dry through our warm, dry summers where several days of 90+ temperatures are common anytime from early June onward. I do recall reading somewhere that this didn't like to totally dry out during its dormant period, so I remember to give it some water from time to time during the summer. Incidentally, the pots are in full sun, not protected in any manner and have endured temperatures that probably remained below freezing for 24 hours, usually after having had to endure nights where the temps have dropped into the single digits Fahrenheit. Hasn't fazed any of this stuff, although your comments re: winter cold/warm dormancy are intriguing. I don't recall (because I've really paid little attention to the pot) if it has leaves in late Fall (that remain over Winter when I'm not here) but, each Spring, the pot always has a number of bright yellow blossoms that go on for some time in flush after flush. Over the years the three corms in the pot have multiplied to the point where each time I look at it, I think, I really have to divide that. I suppose, like many things, that will be the death knell to something that just goes on doing its thing, blissfully unaware of a human's passing thoughts on the process! Best, Dave Karnstedt Silverton, Oregon, USA Mediterranean climate ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Apr 13 16:22:06 2007 Message-Id: <191F5245-0632-42B1-BED0-43A05431F16F@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Ipheion sellowianum Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 13:22:03 -0700 On Apr 13, 2007, at 12:01 PM, Tony Avent wrote: > We're quite a bit hotter > than you in summer and colder in winter, but Nothoscordum > sellowianum is > one of our favorite bulbs... We tried > crossing it with N. dialystemon both ways and got no seed set. > > I believe what is in the trade under these two names is all the > same species. > > Tony Avent > Plant Delights Nursery @ [Now that has got to be one of the funnest coincidences I've experienced: I had just hit the reply button to Tony's email (above) when the doorbell rang and there was FedEx with my plant order from Tony! Talk about service...!] [Okay, that was weird. While I typed the above sentence an email came in from FedEx saying that they had delivered my package from Tony. It was time-stamped at the time just after the driver drove away. I didn't realize their little scanner/signature machines were linked wirelessly all the way to generating an email, too. Neat world we live in, at times.] Anyway, I used to think the two were the same species, and the flowers are almost identical to me. But now that my pots have filled in completely, the two look different. My N. dialystemon has leaves that, while narrow, are twice as wide as those of my N. sellowianum. They are also much flatter. The N. sellowianum leaves are almost tubular. And looking at my pots full of leaves (flowering is over), the sensation is kind of like looking at pots full of green spaghettini noodles (N. sellowianum ) vs. pots full of green angel hair pasta noodles (N. sellowianum). I can try to take a picture to show the difference. My N. dialystemon came from Bill Dijk (as well as from Mary Sue who I think got hers from Bill as well), while my N. sellowianum came from Diana Chapman/Telos. I think I've seen a few seed pods now and then in the past, although rarely. I'll make an effort to check from now on. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USA, USDA Zone 10a From DaveKarn@aol.com Fri Apr 13 16:52:02 2007 Message-Id: From: DaveKarn@aol.com Subject: Ipheion sellowianum Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:51:51 EDT In a message dated 4/13/2007 1:22:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wpoulsen@pacbell.net writes: I used to think the two were the same species, and the flowers are almost identical to me. But now that my pots have filled in completely, the two look different. My N. dialystemon has leaves that, while narrow, are twice as wide as those of my N. sellowianum. Lee ~ Wouldn't that be the sort of variation that one would expect when dealing with species? Although, if these things don't readily set seed, than what we may be dealing with are clonal forms that are/were (unintentionally?) distributed as such and under different names. One fallout, I suppose, of botanists/classifiers, etc., who keep changing the name of plants that don't know they aren't supposed to be different! Dave Karnstedt ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From msittner@mcn.org Fri Apr 13 23:02:53 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070413195113.04aa66d8@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Yellow Nothoscordum/Ipheion Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 20:02:20 -0700 Hi, Originally Bill Dijk shared with a number of us plants he called Ipheion sellowianum and Ipheion dialystemon. Then we were told they were to be called Nothoscordum, not Ipheion. Alberto informed us that even though Nothoscordum dialystemon had 8 tepals and Ipheion sellowianum had six that in South America they both were considered to be Nothoscordum felipponei so that is how we listed them on the wiki. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Nothoscordum There are pictures and descriptions of the climate where they grow under that name. If you search the Kew world check list for Nothoscordum you find that the compiler does not consider N. felipponei to be a valid name. The accepted name (I love this concept, as I always think accepted by whom) is Tristagma sellowianum (Kunth) Traub, Pl. Life 19: 61 (1963). Homotypic Synonyms listed are : Brodiaea felipponei (Beauverd) Herter, Estud. Bot. Reg. Uruguay 4: 47 (1931). Beauverdia felipponei (Beauverd) Herter, Boissiera 7: 510 (1943). Ipheion felipponei (Beauverd) Traub, Pl. Life 5: 50 (1949). Tristagma felipponei (Beauverd) Traub, Pl. Life 19: 61 (1963). However if you then search on that same list for Nothoscordum sellowianum you find that the accepted name is: Nothoscordum bivalve var. bivalve Homotypic Synonyms: Allium sellowianum(Kunth) Regel, Trudy Imp. S.-Peterburgsk. Bot. Sada 3(2): 117 (1875). Allium bivalve var. sellowianum (Kunth) Kuntze, Revis. Gen. Pl. 3(2): 313 (1898). If you search under Ipheion sellowianum you will find it is not an accepted name. It is listed as Tristagma sellowianum with these synonyms: Triteleia sellowiana Milla sellowiana Hooker sellowiana Brodiaea sellowiana Beauverdia sellowiana The RHS plant finder lists Ipheion sellowianum. As for the other plant on the Kew list it is listed as: Nothoscordum dialystemon (Guagl.) Crosa, Darwiniana 19: 344 (1975). Homotypic Synonyms: Ipheion dialystemon Guagl., Darwiniana 16: 800 (1971). There is this note: This name is not Accepted by: Zuloaga, F.O. & Morrone, O. (eds.) (1996). Pteridophyta, Gymnospermae y Angiospermae (Monocotyledoneae). Catálogo de las Plantas Vasculares de la República Argentina 1: 1-323. Missouri Botanical Garden, St. Louis. [as Ipheion dialystemon] The RHS plant finder lists Ipheion dialystemon. Now if you look up Nothoscordum on the Mobot site you will find the family listed under Liliaceae although other sites list it under Alliaceae and you will find Nothoscordum felipponei with two other accepted name citations. The first listed under Amaryllidaceae is Beauverdia felipponei (Beauverd) Herter and the second is Ipheion sellowianum (Kunth) Traub (listed back under Liliaceae). On the other hand if you look under Nothoscordum sellowianum you find it listed as an accepted name along with Nothoscordum bivalve (L.) Britton with the Basionym: Ornithogalum bivalve L. and 19 synonyms. The synonyms are listed as under Allium, Geboscon, Oligosma, and Ornithogalum. Nothoscordum dialystemon and Ipheion dialystemon are listed as synonyms on the Mobot site. This is all so confusing for those of us wanting to grow these plants, obtain them, or share them. But it looks like a number of authorities consider there to be two or three different species so maybe I need to change them on the wiki. It looks like Nothoscordum dialystemon (syn. Ipheion dialystemon). But I'm not sure about the other one I grow. Should it be Nothoscordum bivale or Tristagma sellowianum or Nothoscordum sellowianum or Ipheion sellowianum? It certainly isn't creamy like Dennis describes N. bivale on the wiki. It would be helpful to have some descriptions following these names, but I'm sure that would be far too complicated. Both of the ones I grow are charming bright yellow winter flowering plants. My experience follows some of those reported in that they are long blooming and don't usually set seed. After I shared excess with the BX my plants remained dormant for a couple of years to my great sorrow. But like Rodger I finally got most of them going again by putting them in my greenhouse in summer where it was warmer and watering them occasionally. They now go there every summer along with the Nerine sarniensis that blooms more reliably for me with summer warmth and water. Blooming for me this year for the first time from Mark McDonough seed is Nothoscordum montevidense. I was surprised how tiny the flowers were, but I'm still happy to have it. Mary Sue From tony@plantdelights.com Sat Apr 14 06:52:12 2007 Message-Id: <4620B26D.5060300@plantdelights.com> From: Tony Avent Subject: Ipheion sellowiana Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 06:52:29 -0400 John: We only turn the irrigation on in this region in the summer months when it gets very dry...say, no rain in 7-10 days, but it gets all natural rainfall, which could easily be 6-8" in big storm. Moisture has not proven to be a problem with Nothoscordum sellowianum. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent John T Lonsdale wrote: > "We have ours planted in a full sun rock berm (west-facing slope), amended > with small gravel...no winter protection. I don't think we have dropped > below 8 degrees F since we have grown it." > > Tony - how much moisture will this location have in summer? > > Thanks, > > John > > John T Lonsdale PhD > 407 Edgewood Drive, > Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA > > Home: 610 594 9232 > Cell: 484 678 9856 > Fax: 801 327 1266 > > Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net > > USDA Zone 6b > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From tony@plantdelights.com Sat Apr 14 07:10:13 2007 Message-Id: <4620B6AB.7040002@plantdelights.com> From: Tony Avent Subject: Ipheion sellowianum Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 07:10:35 -0400 Lee: I'd be very interesting to see photos of the two different plants. My plant as N. dialystemon came from Telos and my N. sellowianum came from Seneca Hill. I'd be very interested to know if you find viable seed set. Thanks. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent Lee Poulsen wrote: > On Apr 13, 2007, at 12:01 PM, Tony Avent wrote: > >> We're quite a bit hotter >> than you in summer and colder in winter, but Nothoscordum >> sellowianum is >> one of our favorite bulbs... We tried >> crossing it with N. dialystemon both ways and got no seed set. >> >> I believe what is in the trade under these two names is all the >> same species. >> >> Tony Avent >> Plant Delights Nursery @ >> > > > [Now that has got to be one of the funnest coincidences I've > experienced: I had just hit the reply button to Tony's email (above) > when the doorbell rang and there was FedEx with my plant order from > Tony! Talk about service...!] > > [Okay, that was weird. While I typed the above sentence an email came > in from FedEx saying that they had delivered my package from Tony. It > was time-stamped at the time just after the driver drove away. I > didn't realize their little scanner/signature machines were linked > wirelessly all the way to generating an email, too. Neat world we > live in, at times.] > > Anyway, > I used to think the two were the same species, and the flowers are > almost identical to me. But now that my pots have filled in > completely, the two look different. My N. dialystemon has leaves > that, while narrow, are twice as wide as those of my N. sellowianum. > They are also much flatter. The N. sellowianum leaves are almost > tubular. And looking at my pots full of leaves (flowering is over), > the sensation is kind of like looking at pots full of green > spaghettini noodles (N. sellowianum ) vs. pots full of green angel > hair pasta noodles (N. sellowianum). I can try to take a picture to > show the difference. My N. dialystemon came from Bill Dijk (as well > as from Mary Sue who I think got hers from Bill as well), while my N. > sellowianum came from Diana Chapman/Telos. > > I think I've seen a few seed pods now and then in the past, although > rarely. I'll make an effort to check from now on. > > --Lee Poulsen > Pasadena, California, USA, USDA Zone 10a > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From tony@plantdelights.com Sat Apr 14 07:22:54 2007 Message-Id: <4620B9A4.60409@plantdelights.com> From: Tony Avent Subject: Yellow Nothoscordum/Ipheion Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 07:23:16 -0400 Mary Sue: Thanks for the great expose detailing what catalog writers go through in trying use correct nomenclature. I can name several plants that we spent far more time researching the nomenclature than the sales of the plant would ever produce. I wonder when the taxonomic world will devise a review committee system that officially accepts or rejects name changes. I'd say this is long overdue! Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > Hi, > > Originally Bill Dijk shared with a number of us plants he called Ipheion > sellowianum and Ipheion dialystemon. Then we were told they were to be > called Nothoscordum, not Ipheion. Alberto informed us that even though > Nothoscordum dialystemon had 8 tepals and Ipheion sellowianum had six that > in South America they both were considered to be Nothoscordum felipponei so > that is how we listed them on the wiki. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Nothoscordum > There are pictures and descriptions of the climate where they grow under > that name. > > If you search the Kew world check list for Nothoscordum you find that the > compiler does not consider N. felipponei to be a valid name. The accepted > name (I love this concept, as I always think accepted by whom) is Tristagma > sellowianum (Kunth) Traub, Pl. Life 19: 61 (1963). > Homotypic Synonyms listed are : > Brodiaea felipponei (Beauverd) Herter, Estud. Bot. Reg. Uruguay 4: 47 (1931). > Beauverdia felipponei (Beauverd) Herter, Boissiera 7: 510 (1943). > Ipheion felipponei (Beauverd) Traub, Pl. Life 5: 50 (1949). > Tristagma felipponei (Beauverd) Traub, Pl. Life 19: 61 (1963). > > However if you then search on that same list for Nothoscordum sellowianum > you find that the accepted name is: > Nothoscordum bivalve var. bivalve > Homotypic Synonyms: > Allium sellowianum(Kunth) Regel, Trudy Imp. S.-Peterburgsk. Bot. Sada 3(2): > 117 (1875). > Allium bivalve var. sellowianum (Kunth) Kuntze, Revis. Gen. Pl. 3(2): 313 > (1898). > > If you search under Ipheion sellowianum you will find it is not an accepted > name. It is listed as Tristagma sellowianum with these synonyms: > Triteleia sellowiana > Milla sellowiana > Hooker sellowiana > Brodiaea sellowiana > Beauverdia sellowiana > > The RHS plant finder lists Ipheion sellowianum. > > As for the other plant on the Kew list it is listed as: > Nothoscordum dialystemon (Guagl.) Crosa, Darwiniana 19: 344 (1975). > Homotypic Synonyms: > Ipheion dialystemon Guagl., Darwiniana 16: 800 (1971). > There is this note: > This name is not Accepted by: > Zuloaga, F.O. & Morrone, O. (eds.) (1996). Pteridophyta, Gymnospermae y > Angiospermae (Monocotyledoneae). Catálogo de las Plantas Vasculares de la > República Argentina 1: 1-323. Missouri Botanical Garden, St. Louis. [as > Ipheion dialystemon] > > The RHS plant finder lists Ipheion dialystemon. > > Now if you look up Nothoscordum on the Mobot site you will find the family > listed under Liliaceae although other sites list it under Alliaceae > and you will find Nothoscordum felipponei with two other accepted name > citations. The first listed under Amaryllidaceae is > Beauverdia felipponei (Beauverd) Herter and the second is Ipheion > sellowianum (Kunth) Traub (listed back under Liliaceae). > > On the other hand if you look under Nothoscordum sellowianum you find it > listed as an accepted name along with > Nothoscordum bivalve (L.) Britton > with the Basionym: Ornithogalum bivalve L. and 19 synonyms. The synonyms > are listed as under Allium, Geboscon, Oligosma, and Ornithogalum. > > Nothoscordum dialystemon and Ipheion dialystemon are listed as synonyms on > the Mobot site. > > This is all so confusing for those of us wanting to grow these plants, > obtain them, or share them. But it looks like a number of authorities > consider there to be two or three different species so maybe I need to > change them on the wiki. It looks like Nothoscordum dialystemon (syn. > Ipheion dialystemon). But I'm not sure about the other one I grow. Should > it be Nothoscordum bivale or Tristagma sellowianum or Nothoscordum > sellowianum or Ipheion sellowianum? It certainly isn't creamy like Dennis > describes N. bivale on the wiki. It would be helpful to have some > descriptions following these names, but I'm sure that would be far too > complicated. > > Both of the ones I grow are charming bright yellow winter flowering plants. > My experience follows some of those reported in that they are long blooming > and don't usually set seed. After I shared excess with the BX my plants > remained dormant for a couple of years to my great sorrow. But like Rodger > I finally got most of them going again by putting them in my greenhouse in > summer where it was warmer and watering them occasionally. They now go > there every summer along with the Nerine sarniensis that blooms more > reliably for me with summer warmth and water. Blooming for me this year for > the first time from Mark McDonough seed is Nothoscordum montevidense. I was > surprised how tiny the flowers were, but I'm still happy to have it. > > Mary Sue > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From john@johnlonsdale.net Sat Apr 14 07:46:39 2007 Message-Id: <007101c77e8a$82e65bf0$6501a8c0@XPS400> From: "John T Lonsdale" Subject: Ipheion sellowiana Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 07:46:16 -0400 Very interesting, thanks Tony. I'm going to get all mine together today and keep them moister until they really cry out for a dryer period. I've not tried that, I tend to stop watering them when the narcissus they are with go down, and that will be within the next month or so. J. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b John: I haven't kept good notes on their dormancy period, but seem to recall that they keep foliage most of the summer. John T Lonsdale wrote: > "We only turn the irrigation on in this region in the summer months when > it gets very dry...say, no rain in 7-10 days, but it gets all natural > rainfall, which could easily be 6-8" in big storm. Moisture has not > proven to be a problem with Nothoscordum sellowianum." > > Thanks Tony. Alberto Castillo always said that these plants prefer some > moisture when dormant, it actually helps them as they have perennial roots. > I still have a natural aversion to keeping dormant bulbs moist during the > summer, especially when potted, but this is further evidence (I wasn't > doubting you Alberto!) that it could be a good thing for these fellows. > Keeping the plants dry like the major part of my bulb collection certainly > doesn't kill the bulbs but they do seem to take a long time to get going > each year. > > When do yours go dormant and when do they green up again? From jshaw@opuntiads.com Sat Apr 14 11:49:36 2007 Message-Id: <000a01c77eac$8ec55440$6501a8c0@Petunia> From: "Joe Shaw" Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 51, Issue 16 Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:48:26 -0500 Hi Gang, Please help me with an ID. I suppose it is a rainlily, it is growing in a collection of pots that should be rainlilies from seeds. LINK: Unknown Yellow Flower, Image 1 http://members.aol.com/conroejoe/unknownyellow1.jpg LINK: Unknown Yellow Flower, Image 2 http://members.aol.com/conroejoe/unknownyellow2.jpg Cordially, Joe Conroe TX--The florists's amaryllis flowers are in full bloom. I do love crinums, but amaryllis hybrids sure have substance. Some heavy rains have failed to damage petals on many of the flowers. And the gaudy reds and pinks are amazing. Too bad my Hippeastrum hybrids don't rebloom the way Crinum do. One C. bulbispermum plant started a whle ago and is putting up yet another scape (No. 4). Some crinums can bloom till June or early July and then bloom again in fall. Of course there are the Amarcrinum, so durable, fragrant, and happy to bloom in July and August, or fall. From totototo@telus.net Sat Apr 14 12:16:12 2007 Message-Id: <20070414161610.8D64HC2XMD@priv-edmwaa06.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Ipheion/Tristagma 'Rolf Fiedler' Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:15:39 -0700 On 13 Apr 07, at 12:39, Lee Poulsen wrote: > ...What are the arguments for placing 'Rolf Fiedler' in the genus > Tristagma rather than in Ipheion? Both its bulbs, leaves, and > flowers are so similar to I. uniflorum that it's difficult to > distinguish until the flowers open. I would think that these two > are what I would call sister species. Otherwise, I would wonder > why I. uniflorum isn't also place in the genus Tristagma. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/old.php/2003-November/016025.html which says, inter alia... > This means that there is no more Ipheion. All the correctly > "recognized" species in this genus are now Tristagma. [Found by googling ipheion "rolf fiedler", fourth link in the results.] IOW, "Ipheion" uniflorum is properly Tristagma uniflora. I had recently looked this up because I was entering a pot of 'Rolf Fiedler' in our local show of alpines and wanted to get the "right" name on the label. Google came through with the very message I had a dim recollection of. Poulsen: > More generally, I thought Tristagma was mostly a Chilean/Andean > Argentine genus that looks very similar to Ipheions. Don Elick told me that Rolf Fiedler, the man, was an Argentine rancher whose property was seized by the government and who subsequently went mad. To me, the obvious implication is that Ipheion/Tristagma/whatever 'Rolf Fiedler' is native to Argentina. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From totototo@telus.net Sat Apr 14 12:17:36 2007 Message-Id: <20070414161735.62LL2UR4WV@priv-edtnaa05.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Yellow Nothoscordum/Ipheion Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:17:03 -0700 On 13 Apr 07, at 20:02, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: [lament about the many names for Ipheion/Beauverdia/Tristagma/ Nothoscordum sellowianum/-a/bivalve/etc.] > This is all so confusing for those of us wanting to grow these > plants, obtain them, or share them. It's like the mess with Spanish Narcissus (esp. the bulbocodium clan), but at the generic level rather than the specific. It's clear that the botany of these South American bulbs is in a state of total disarray. Until somebody somewhere can devote considerable resources to their investigation, we're doomed to amuse ourselves with the plethora of available names. I'm not holding my breath for a resolution of this mess anytime very soon. And even with adequate resources, there may be no firm conclusion possible. The Spanish Narcissus are a problem because the genus is clearly in a state of active evolution on the Iberian Peninsula and hasn't settled down to a fixed number of clearly distinguishable species. I have wondered if something similar is happening in Argentina with the Ipheion/Tristagma/Nothoscordum complex. Sigh. Anyone need a big box of Kleenex to soak up their tears over this mess? -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From totototo@telus.net Sat Apr 14 12:18:13 2007 Message-Id: <20070414161811.42HGRG2X99@priv-edmwaa05.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Ipheion sellowianum Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:17:40 -0700 On 14 Apr 07, at 9:21, Ellen Hornig wrote: > Just to avoid any confusion here: the plants you got from us, Tony, > came originally from Rodger Whitlock (thanks, Roger!) I still grow a > couple of pans for my own pleasure, and they manage to bloom even in > the relatively dim light of the polyhouse. A fuller genealogy is... Don Elick me Ellen Hornig Tony Avent -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From hornig@usadatanet.net Sat Apr 14 09:19:40 2007 Message-Id: From: "Ellen Hornig" Subject: Ipheion sellowianum Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:21:39 -0700 Just to avoid any confusion here: the plants you got from us, Tony, came originally from Rodger Whitlock (thanks, Roger!) I still grow a couple of pans for my own pleasure, and they manage to bloom even in the relatively dim light of the polyhouse. Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 County Route 57 Oswego NY 13126 USA www.senecahillperennials.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Avent" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 4:10 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Ipheion sellowianum > Lee: > > I'd be very interesting to see photos of the two different plants. My > plant as N. dialystemon came from Telos and my N. sellowianum came from > Seneca Hill. I'd be very interested to know if you find viable seed > set. Thanks. > > Tony Avent > Plant Delights Nursery @ > Juniper Level Botanic Garden > 9241 Sauls Road > Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA > Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F > Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F > USDA Hardiness Zone 7b > email tony@plantdelights.com > website http://www.plantdelights.com > phone 919 772-4794 > fax 919 772-4752 > "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least > three times" - Avent > > > > Lee Poulsen wrote: >> On Apr 13, 2007, at 12:01 PM, Tony Avent wrote: >> >>> We're quite a bit hotter >>> than you in summer and colder in winter, but Nothoscordum >>> sellowianum is >>> one of our favorite bulbs... We tried >>> crossing it with N. dialystemon both ways and got no seed set. >>> >>> I believe what is in the trade under these two names is all the >>> same species. >>> >>> Tony Avent >>> Plant Delights Nursery @ >>> >> >> >> [Now that has got to be one of the funnest coincidences I've >> experienced: I had just hit the reply button to Tony's email (above) >> when the doorbell rang and there was FedEx with my plant order from >> Tony! Talk about service...!] >> >> [Okay, that was weird. While I typed the above sentence an email came >> in from FedEx saying that they had delivered my package from Tony. It >> was time-stamped at the time just after the driver drove away. I >> didn't realize their little scanner/signature machines were linked >> wirelessly all the way to generating an email, too. Neat world we >> live in, at times.] >> >> Anyway, >> I used to think the two were the same species, and the flowers are >> almost identical to me. But now that my pots have filled in >> completely, the two look different. My N. dialystemon has leaves >> that, while narrow, are twice as wide as those of my N. sellowianum. >> They are also much flatter. The N. sellowianum leaves are almost >> tubular. And looking at my pots full of leaves (flowering is over), >> the sensation is kind of like looking at pots full of green >> spaghettini noodles (N. sellowianum ) vs. pots full of green angel >> hair pasta noodles (N. sellowianum). I can try to take a picture to >> show the difference. My N. dialystemon came from Bill Dijk (as well >> as from Mary Sue who I think got hers from Bill as well), while my N. >> sellowianum came from Diana Chapman/Telos. >> >> I think I've seen a few seed pods now and then in the past, although >> rarely. I'll make an effort to check from now on. >> >> --Lee Poulsen >> Pasadena, California, USA, USDA Zone 10a >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> >> > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From totototo@telus.net Sat Apr 14 12:51:09 2007 Message-Id: <20070414165108.8663S04RMA@priv-edmwaa06.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Ipheion sellowianum Genealogy Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:50:36 -0700 I left something important out of my previous message in which I wrote > A fuller genealogy is... > > Don Elick > me > Ellen Hornig > Tony Avent This refers to the four-petalled form, which is aberrant for a monocot. I believe it was Jerry Flintoff who told me many years ago that this form was also grown by a few gardeners in the Seattle area. Their plants would not fall into the list given above. As the four-petalled form is likely a single clone, the genealogy has other, earlier generations in it and other branches. Jerry also made reference to a form with the petals in the more normal three-fold arrangement you would expect in a monocot. [At least that what my failing memory says! Jerry? Over to you.] There is no mention of it in Brian Mathews' seminal 1973 "Dwarf Bulbs" under any name I can find, nor in his 1986 "The Year-round Bulb Garden", but in his 1987 "The Smaller Bulbs" he refers to it and credits Alberto Castillo as the donor of his plant. I notice, however, that he does not mention the unusual arrangement of the petals in fours. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From msittner@mcn.org Sat Apr 14 13:54:09 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070414100818.028012a8@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Ipheion/Tristagma 'Rolf Fiedler' Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:51:47 -0700 Hi, Actually this gets discussed on our list every couple of years, probably because in spite of being told to change the name of Ipheion 'Rolf Fiedler', most people have not changed their plant tags. Lee may have forgotten that he asked about this in December 2003. My post includes what was said about it by Alberto in January 2003. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/old.php/2003-December/thread.html This thread is at the top of the page. Mary Sue From voltaire@islandnet.com Sat Apr 14 15:22:17 2007 Message-Id: <68A73323-1057-40FB-96FA-630CFD90D6EE@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Ipheion sellowianum 8 petals Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 12:21:54 -0700 Rodger Whitlock wrote: > A fuller genealogy is... > > Don Elick > me > Ellen Hornig > Tony Avent This refers to the four-petalled form, which is aberrant for a monocot. ============================ I've just counted petals on the picture I took at the O'Byrne's garden in Eugene, Oregon. Eight. I'd better look on the wiki and compare. Diane Whitehead From alanidae@gmail.com Sat Apr 14 15:38:18 2007 Message-Id: From: "Alani Davis" Subject: Ipheion sellowianum 8 petals Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:38:17 -0400 I think 8 tepaled would be most accurate way to describe this situation since the is not express differentiation between the sepals and the petals, but is this condition unusually for Ipheion? I mean to say I understand base three or six is normal for monocots and Ipheion, but I have a variable colony of Ipheion uniflorum which produces 8,10,& 12 tepaled flowers as well as the typical 6, and I have wondered if this was unusual or not. On 4/14/07, Diane Whitehead wrote: > > Rodger Whitlock wrote: > > A fuller genealogy is... > > > > Don Elick > > me > > Ellen Hornig > > Tony Avent > > This refers to the four-petalled form, which is aberrant for a > monocot. > > ============================ > > I've just counted petals on the picture I took at the O'Byrne's > garden in Eugene, Oregon. > > Eight. > > I'd better look on the wiki and compare. > > Diane Whitehead > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From rdjenkins@bellsouth.net Sat Apr 14 16:35:31 2007 Message-Id: <000a01c77ed4$65e15060$6101a8c0@JenkinsMachine> From: "rdjenkins" Subject: "RARE" Hippeastrum nearing bloom Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 16:35:08 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Westfall" To: "PBS members" Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 5:08 PM Subject: [pbs] "RARE" Hippeastrum nearing bloom > ...... I > have the following (among others more common) Hippeastrum about to > bloom: miniatum, intiflorum, and goianum........ > Needless to say, I will do my best to take pictures of both miniatum > and goianum when they do bloom. Yes, they will be added to the wiki. Can't wait to see your pix, especially H. goianum. I've never even read a description of that one. And do add some size details of all three in your wiki entry or post them to the list. Thanks! Robert. From ron_redding@hotmail.com Sat Apr 14 17:02:53 2007 Message-Id: From: "Ronald Redding" Subject: Hippeastrums and Nearing bloom Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 07:02:47 +1000 Doug That is wonderful news I will look forward to seeing the photo's. At least you will be around to see them. I have only ever seen a particular worsleya clone flower once and then it was in a glass jar as the local wild life decided it didn't look quite right on the plant and broke the flower stem off before the flowers had opened. That was a year ago and now another flower spike larger and almost fully extended is out however I have to go away for over a week for work and may not get to see it in its full glory, I am hoping not to miss it fully though. Also my first flower of cryptostephanus vansonii has appeared from the centre of one of my seed grown plants that I obtained from Silverhills seed years ago and I am not real keen on missing that either because I have never seen one of these in flower. Unfortanatley the bills don't stop coming and it is off to work I go hoping to get back with a full sail and clear skies and we both have happy stories to tell. Kind Regards and Best Wishes Ron Redding Hervey Bay Australia _________________________________________________________________ Advertisement: House hunt online now! ninemsn.realestate.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Erealestate%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Frsearch%3Fa%3Dbhp%26t%3Dres%26cu%3DMSN&_t=758874163&_r=HM_Txt_Link_Oct06&_m=EXT From eagle85@flash.net Sat Apr 14 16:10:28 2007 Message-Id: <4D5F86CE-EACC-11DB-9C8D-00050277B6E6@flash.net> From: Doug Westfall Subject: "RARE" Hippeastrum nearing bloom Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:08:32 -0700 While those "contributing" to the pbs site discussion about ipheion, I have the following (among others more common) Hippeastrum about to bloom: miniatum, intiflorum, and goianum. Needless to say, I am extremely interested to see these in bloom. I have had the H. intiflorum bloom for the last four years. I have even managed to germinate about 2 dozen seedlings from an"off season blooming." (No other Hippeastrum was blooming at the time and I think that I can safely say that they are H. intiflorum seedlings.) I have not had nor seen either H. miniatum or H. goianum bloom. Dennis Tsang has a beautiful picture of H. miniatum posted on the IBS gallery, but I cannot find a picture of H. goianum anywhere. Needless to say, I will do my best to take pictures of both miniatum and goianum when they do bloom. Yes, they will be added to the wiki. Doug Westfall From totototo@telus.net Sun Apr 15 14:46:03 2007 Message-Id: <20070415184602.B1NM4JNBLU@priv-edtnaa05.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Ipheion sellowianum 8 petals Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:45:29 -0700 On 14 Apr 07, at 12:21, Diane Whitehead wrote: > Rodger Whitlock wrote: > > A fuller genealogy is... > > > > Don Elick > > me > > Ellen Hornig > > Tony Avent > > This refers to the four-petalled form, which is aberrant for a > monocot. > > ============================ > > I've just counted petals on the picture I took at the O'Byrne's > garden in Eugene, Oregon. > > Eight. > > I'd better look on the wiki and compare. Four pairs is what I meant or, as another reply pointed out, technically 4 petals and 4 tepals alternating. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From eob@peak.org Mon Apr 16 02:24:18 2007 Message-Id: From: "Ernie O'Byrne" Subject: Ipheion sellowianum 8 petals Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:24:47 -0700 That plant was purchased at Ashwood Nurseries in England. Ernie O'Byrne Northwest Garden Nursery 86813 Central Road Eugene, ORegon 97402 USA USDA Z. 7B "Most stern moralists are in the habit of thinking of pleasure as only of the senses, and, when they eschew the pleasures of sense, they do not notice that the pleasures of power, which to men of their temperament are far more attractive, have not been brought within the ban of their ascetic self-denial." -- Bertrand Russell -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Diane Whitehead Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 12:22 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Ipheion sellowianum 8 petals Sender ALLOWED [ Remove ] [ Block ] details Vanquish Anti-Spam Control Panel Rodger Whitlock wrote: > A fuller genealogy is... > > Don Elick > me > Ellen Hornig > Tony Avent This refers to the four-petalled form, which is aberrant for a monocot. ============================ I've just counted petals on the picture I took at the O'Byrne's garden in Eugene, Oregon. Eight. I'd better look on the wiki and compare. Diane Whitehead _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 7:58 PM From tony@plantdelights.com Mon Apr 16 09:27:07 2007 Message-Id: <462379C2.8000401@plantdelights.com> From: Tony Avent Subject: Ipheion sellowianum 8 petals Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 09:27:30 -0400 Ernie: Are you saying that Don got his plant from Ashwood? Is Don still with us? Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent Ernie O'Byrne wrote: > That plant was purchased at Ashwood Nurseries in England. > > Ernie O'Byrne > Northwest Garden Nursery > 86813 Central Road > Eugene, ORegon 97402 > USA > USDA Z. 7B > > "Most stern moralists are in the habit of thinking of pleasure as only of > the senses, and, when they eschew the pleasures of sense, they do not notice > that the pleasures of power, which to men of their temperament are far more > attractive, have not been brought within the ban of their ascetic > self-denial." > -- Bertrand Russell > > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Diane Whitehead > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 12:22 PM > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Subject: Re: [pbs] Ipheion sellowianum 8 petals > > > Sender ALLOWED [ Remove ] [ Block ] details > > Vanquish Anti-Spam Control Panel > > > > > Rodger Whitlock wrote: > > A fuller genealogy is... > > > > Don Elick > > me > > Ellen Hornig > > Tony Avent > > This refers to the four-petalled form, which is aberrant for a > monocot. > > ============================ > > I've just counted petals on the picture I took at the O'Byrne's > garden in Eugene, Oregon. > > Eight. > > I'd better look on the wiki and compare. > > Diane Whitehead > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 > 7:58 PM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From msittner@mcn.org Mon Apr 16 16:25:22 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070416132225.016a5440@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Cyrtanthus page Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:24:56 -0700 Thanks Jay. I thought I had saved it yesterday, but when I looked for it, it was gone. I tried again today and kept getting that spam message when I tried to save it. Perhaps it was in my cache. I didn't try to override it. Weird since yesterday I was sure when I signed in as an administrator I was able to save it as a new page . I should have sent it as a text file, but I was out the door to the gym and trail work. Sorry I made extra work for you. Mary Sue From garden@tiscali.co.uk Mon Apr 16 16:50:11 2007 Message-Id: From: Graham Rice Subject: Peter Boyce on Arum italicum and A. concinnatum Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:49:31 -0400 I emailed Peter Boyce on the issue of Arum synonymy we were discussing last week. Here's what he says: This issue of synonymy is linked to the true application of the name Arum italicum subvar. (not var.) marmoratum (Schott) Engl. Pflanzenr. IV.23F: 85 (1920) [basionym Arum marmoratum Schott, Prod. Syst. Aroid: 86 (1860)] and is nothing to do with with the heterotypic cultivar (culton) 'Marmoratum' Hort. Schott's type of his name marmoratum (an excellent life-size painting with fully diagnostic characters) is unquestionably conspecific with A. concinnatum. All clear?! I think what it all boils down to is this: Schott first published the name Arum marmoratum in 1860. Later, in 1920, Engler reduced it in rank to Arum italicum subvar. marmoratum. However, back in 1860 Schott had illustrated it with a perfect painting of Arum concinnatum! So the original publication of the name Arum marmoratum was invalid. The cultivar name 'Marmoratum' was used much later and, as has been remarked, might well be better as a group name. I think that's it... rushing to pack to leave for two weeks in England. And, as it's snowing here in PA!, I want to pop out and see if the skunk cabbage is doing its thing and melting the snow. Graham Rice http://TransatlanticPlantsman.com BTW The new edition of the RHS PlantFinder is now online, I've written it up here: http://transatlanticplantsman.typepad.com/transatlantic_plantsman/2007/04/the_royal_horti.html From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Mon Apr 16 18:27:15 2007 Message-Id: <000f01c78075$a8afa200$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Peter Boyce on Arum italicum and A. concinnatum Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:22:01 -0400 Here's something missing from Graham Rice's account: Schott, author of Arum marmoratum in 1860, is also author of Arum concinnatum (in his Icones Aroidearum of 1857). I don't have the text: did Schott himself consider these to be distinct species? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From eob@peak.org Mon Apr 16 19:20:54 2007 Message-Id: From: "Ernie O'Byrne" Subject: Ipheion sellowianum 8 petals Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:21:20 -0700 No, Tony, the one that I refer to is the one that Diane took a picture of in our garden and mentioned in her post. We purchased it as Ipheion sellowianum in 2003 on a hellebore trip to England and kept it in a pot for one season. We planted it out in the fall of that year and it has been outside, increasing steadily and blooming every year since. It is in a dryland that used to never get water and now is watered a couple of times a summer. Ernie O'Byrne Northwest Garden Nursery 86813 Central Road Eugene, ORegon 97402 USA USDA Z. 7B From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Tony Avent Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 6:28 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Ipheion sellowianum 8 petals Sender ALLOWED [ Remove ] [ Block ] details Vanquish Anti-Spam Control Panel Ernie: Are you saying that Don got his plant from Ashwood? Is Don still with us? Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden Ernie O'Byrne wrote: > That plant was purchased at Ashwood Nurseries in England. > > I've just counted petals on the picture I took at the O'Byrne's > garden in Eugene, Oregon. > > Eight. > > I'd better look on the wiki and compare. > > Diane Whitehead > _______________________________________________ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 7:58 PM From msittner@mcn.org Mon Apr 16 23:20:07 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070416171406.031bd188@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Cyrtanthus page Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:17:59 -0700 Sorry everybody for sending my message to Jay to the list. I'm in the process of breaking down the Cyrtanthus page into multiple pages on the wiki so it won't take so long to load since it was in need of this and was unable to save one of them and Jay did it for me. Jay and I are continuing to try to solve all the wiki problems that resulted after the software upgrade and we aren't there yet. Mary Sue From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Apr 17 14:48:52 2007 Message-Id: <000001c7811a$c3078050$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: A daffodil ephphany Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:03:52 -0400 I took a break today and drove down to the local bird food store: our forty-seven sparrows were running out of food. We buy bird seed from the Audubon Naturalist Society, which is domiciled in a nineteenth century mansion on a forty acre wooded site about fifteen minutes away. For the most part, other than trees and shrubs, the estate's gardens are a thing of the past. But there is one area where winter aconites, snowdrops and some other garden plants persist, and among them today I noticed some Ornithogalum nutans and daffodils. I didn't recognize the daffodils, which is not surprising because I only recognize perhaps about a hundred daffodils, if that. And there is no reason to think that they are survivors of the original garden. But something about them really got my attention. They were small cupped daffodils, and but for color they looked just like Eucharis. In the past I never paid much attention to the distinction once made between the Leedsii and Barrii daffodils: by the time I began to take an interest in daffodils, those names were no longer used and were of historic interest, if that. But if you read the old books, the books of eighty to a hundred years ago, you will encounter the terms in most accounts of daffodils. These names correspond to what we now know as Division 3 small cupped daffodils. The Barrii forms were distinguished from the Leedsii forms primarily on the basis of color: the Leedsii forms were mostly white or cream colored. One reason the distinction died out is because over time it became blurred. Somewhere I read of daffodils which were known as "Euicharis flowered" but I can't remember where I read this. Surely it was the Leedsii sorts which were so-called. Thanks to the horticultural classification used for garden daffodils, even a beginner can make a good start at sorting out the initially bewildering, myriad, literally myriad, varieties of garden daffodils. Over the years I've had waxing and waning enthusiasms among the daffodils: there was a white trumpet phase, there was a cyclamineus phase, there was a poetaz phase and eventually a poeticus phase and so on. But I never really experienced a keen interest in the small cupped types. That is, until today. There is something very elegant about these plants: the proportion of the stem to flower size seems just right, and the proportions of the flower parts seem to agree with one another particularly well. And in the modern sorts the color range in this group is especially beguiling. These might be the daffodils I choose to grow old with. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where local fields, lawns and wood verges are spangled with broad mats of spring beauties, violets and veronica. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From piabinha@yahoo.com Tue Apr 17 21:57:18 2007 Message-Id: <720094.52713.qm@web51903.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: NOVA: the first flower Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:57:17 -0700 (PDT) did anyone else in the US see the nova episode tonight, about the paleobotanical research into the first flowering plants? ok, that particular topic wasn't that interesting to me, but i loved getting a glimpse of the Hengduan mountains in western china and the amazing diversity of plants there. they showed prof. Yin Kaipu, of the Chengdu botanical institute (?), leading Dan Hinkley, formerly of the heronswood nursery, into a small patch of weeds near the road, and in that tiny patch, dan goes bananas with the diversity of plants found there (something ridiculous like 30 genera). i couldn't identify most of the plants, but just the shots of the Lilium lophophorum (?) and Cypripedium tibeticum were worth watching the whole thing, and enduring the segment about the Archaeofructus, DNA, cladistics, and Amborella... those shots of western china were sooo cool... made me want to become a plant explorer... ========= tsuh yang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Apr 17 22:48:00 2007 Message-Id: <000601c78164$0755ba80$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: A daffodil ephphany (make that epiphany, thank you) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:48:20 -0400 Before posting that message, I did a search among about a dozen early twentieth century books with an emphasis on bulbs to try to pin down the source of the Eucharis flowered daffodils. Nothing turned up, so I sent the message on. Later in the day, I went back and tried again. This time I found it. Mrs. Wilder is my source. She does not mention the Eucharis flowered daffodils in her 1936 Adventures with Hardy Bulbs, although by then the distinction between Barrii and Leedsii daffodils must have been obsolescent. However, in her earlier My Garden (copyright 1916, although my copy is dated 1920) she writes "the Eucharis-flowered or Leedsii group are softly coloured (sic) and delicately fragrant." My earlier message likened the Baurii and Leedsii groups to our modern Division 3 small cup daffodils. That was an oversimplification. Actually, the Barrii and Leedsii sorts ended up in both Division 2 and Division 3, depending on the size of the corona. I assume that the small cupped Leedsii sorts were Mrs. Wilder's Eucharis-flowered sorts. Although these distinctions no longer significant, the next time you see a group of small cupped daffodils in flower, look at them with that Eucharis-flowered description in mind and see if you don't see them in a new light. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where it still feels more like March than April. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jshields@indy.net Wed Apr 18 08:27:16 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20070418081535.00b18d50@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: NOVA: the first flower Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:27:14 -0400 Hi all, Yes, I watched the NOVA program too, because I've long been interested in the origins of the angiosperms (flowering plants). And if I were 20 years younger, I'd want to go plant exploring in China with you! Are Paige W. and Jim Waddick still putting on their plant tours to China? The monocots are now apparently thought to be a somewhat later branch from the original dicot line of early angiosperms. I think they were once thought to be a basal angiosperm group -- a mistake it seems, based on DNA. There is a note in the March 31 issue of "Science News" (a weekly newsletter or magazine) about what was thought to be a primitive grass, Trithuria (Family Hydatellaceae), but which has turned out to be a very primitive angiosperm, and quoting Doug Soltis, who was also shown on the NOVA program. It is really very satisfying to see thing coming together in a consistent way, as paleobotanists piece together the history of the angiosperms. Jim Shields in sunny, mild central Indiana (USA) where it seems to once again be springtime ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Apr 18 09:32:13 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: NOVA: the first flower Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:17:13 -0500 >And if I were 20 years younger, I'd want to go plant exploring in China >with you! Are Paige W. and Jim Waddick still putting on their plant tours >to China? Dear All, Yes I got to watch the program too and was a bit frustrated by the two themes not very well combined - the fossil history of angiosperms (flowering plants) and the modern plant exploration in China. Each could have been a separate program. Yes, I've been at or near all those spots and yes, this is not that uncommon to come across amazing batches of road side 'weeds. One spot in Yunnan had some 80 sp of Rhodies from ground cover to trees. And although I have sort of come to 'expect' these things sometimes there are amazing days - like stopping at a road side to crawl around under 30 ft rhodies to check out iris, primula, podophyllum (dysosma), and much more. And a hillside of thousands of tree peonies in full bloom. Wow. Yes Paige and I are still doing this although we have taken this spring off. Paige has been working on a lily centered tour for a while. We'll be doing peonies again next spring, but probably not in China although I'd sure rather be in the Sichuan Mtns this spring than facing the disastrous freeze damage here in Kansas City. Jim S- 20 years younger? - last year we had a participant of 82 in the group and he did fine. And a few others in their 70s. Are you over 100 yo? Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From brent.hine@ubc.ca Wed Apr 18 10:21:40 2007 Message-Id: <46262999.6040406@ubc.ca> From: brent hine Subject: NOVA: the first flower Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:22:17 -0700 Re. the NOVA program on China, plant exploring etc. It is so wonderful being in the field, though I missed that program I can well imagine Dan's wonder and joy. When I saw Hydatellaceae, I remembered some interesting work in that family that has recently been done by "our" guys here at the U. of BC in Vancouver. Here's a link for those interested: http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/articles/6/ Cheers Brent Hine Vancouver, BC > From paige@hillkeep.ca Wed Apr 18 13:10:06 2007 Message-Id: From: "Pacific Rim" Subject: NOVA: the first flower Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:09:05 -0700 Jim Shields wrote: >Are Paige W. and Jim Waddick still putting on their plant tours to China? And Jim Waddick wrote: > Yes Paige and I are still doing this although we have taken > this spring off. Paige has been working on a lily centered tour for a > while. We'll be doing peonies again next spring, but probably not in > China I doubt that we will ever stop going to China. We have good friends there, excellent botanical connections, there is always more cultural and ecological territory to cover, nothing stays the same and we just plain love China. We always rejoice to be back. Lilies of China, Peonies of the Mediterranean and Peonies of the Caucasus are in the works. Several more China study-tours are in the daydream stage. Paige Woodward paige@hillkeep.ca www.hillkeep.ca From dells@voicenet.com Wed Apr 18 16:21:39 2007 Message-Id: <20070418202139.795C74C010@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific BX 142 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 16:21:18 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by our members to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 142" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address, too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (usually $2.00/item) (cash, check, or Pay Pal to ; no money orders, please) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. Some of you are members of the online PBS discussion forum but are not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: .... If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS,(Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations.) please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk 6832 Phillips Mill Rd. New Hope, PA, 18938 USA I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Alberto Castillo: (SEED) (W = winter growing; S = summer growing) 1. Zephyranthes fosterii (S) 2. Zephyranthes verecunda, pink, rose (S) 3. Zephyranthes primulina (S) 4. Habranthus martinezii (W) 5. Cooperia smallii (W) 6. Rhodophiala granatiflora 7. Moraea huttonii (S) 8. Tritonia deusta (W) 9. Dioscorea sp.? (bulbils) (S) From Lee Poulsen: 10. Small bulbs of Scilla natalensis (Merwilla) From Rob Hamilton and Jim Lykos: (SEED) 11. Calostemma purpureum, Mannum, South Australia 12. Calostemma purpureum, Berri, South Australia 13. Calostemma purpureum, Orroroo, South Australia 14. Crinum luteolum, Pichi Richi Pass, South Australia 15. Crinum aff luteolum, "Desert Crinum" Andamooka, South Australia 16. Crinum aff luteolum, "Desert Crinum" Macleay, Oakden Hills, South Australia Thank you, Alberto, Lee, Rob, and Jim !! Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX From puppincuff@cox.net Wed Apr 18 20:57:34 2007 Message-Id: <000601c7821d$b3c45740$6401a8c0@Office> From: "chuck schwartz" Subject: NOVA: the first flower Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:57:27 -0700 I saw it also. They spent all their time mentioning entomophilic ( insect mediated ) fertilization and ignored the evolution of anemophilic (wind mediated ) fertilization. This is odd since the Gymnosperms are, for the most part, anemophilic, and the most important family for human development is the Gramineae, which is also wind polinated chuck Schwartz zone 9b , CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "piaba" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:57 PM Subject: [pbs] NOVA: the first flower > did anyone else in the US see the nova episode > tonight, about the paleobotanical research into the > first flowering plants? > > ok, that particular topic wasn't that interesting to > me, but i loved getting a glimpse of the Hengduan > mountains in western china and the amazing diversity > of plants there. they showed prof. Yin Kaipu, of the > Chengdu botanical institute (?), leading Dan Hinkley, > formerly of the heronswood nursery, into a small patch > of weeds near the road, and in that tiny patch, dan > goes bananas with the diversity of plants found there > (something ridiculous like 30 genera). i couldn't > identify most of the plants, but just the shots of the > Lilium lophophorum (?) and Cypripedium tibeticum were > worth watching the whole thing, and enduring the > segment about the Archaeofructus, DNA, cladistics, and > Amborella... those shots of western china were sooo > cool... made me want to become a plant explorer... > > ========= > tsuh yang > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From carlobal@netzero.com Wed Apr 18 23:48:26 2007 Message-Id: <20070418.204703.833.1563926@webmail34.lax.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.com" Subject: NOVA: the first flower Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 03:46:15 GMT I won't bother you with it here, but anyone interested in what I thought of the show can read about it at: www.botanicalgardening.com/hinkleyonnova.html If you didn't catch it Tuesday, try to see it when it's replayed... Carlo Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2049) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com From dells@voicenet.com Thu Apr 19 07:31:12 2007 Message-Id: <20070419113112.5CB474C010@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific BX 142 CLOSED Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:30:59 -0400 Not surprisingly, everything went fast. Packages should go out after the weekend. Enjoy, Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX From angelasgarden2@bigpond.com Wed Apr 18 06:13:04 2007 Message-Id: <009b01c7829a$386a1800$a595a83a@acer6fa91de09f> From: "Angela" Subject: Anouncing the North American Clivia Society show and sale Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:48:45 +0800 Hello, my emails are not coming thru again, please help, my carrier promises all the problems are fixed (I am looking for a new carrier!) Anyhow I am setting up an international website for clivia. Joining together, means heaps of cost savings, and within 6 months people will be able to list items for sale (if they wish) Anyhow, fellow members are welcome to put their home page/ or a page about themselves, what they wish to trade, breed, climate, problems, email, and a picture of themselves would be really nice. All for free for a minimum of 6 months, then we will just see how it develops from there! I don't care if they have 100s to sell or 1 to sell, or just want to swap. my email (if it is still working!) angela offer angelasgarden@bigpond.com.au Just send your page, or whatever you want listed on the site, no obligations, for free - from a fellow clivia addict! From maxwithers@gmail.com Thu Apr 19 12:46:54 2007 Message-Id: <46279CDC.7060800@gmail.com> From: Max Withers Subject: Curtis's Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:46:20 -0700 The first two 2007 issues of Curtis's Botanical Magazine have just been put up on the blackwell-synergy site, I have listed the geophytic species covered below. [Subscriptions are expensive, but there is some kind of provision for free access in developing countries, and non-subscribers can at least be alerted to the contents by both RSS and email alerts (at least I think Blackwell offers the latter for free -- I'd be interested to know if anyone tries this). At that point you can decide if you want to track something down at the library.] Best, Max http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/loi/curt February 2007 (Vol. 24 Issue 1 Page 1-84) 577. IRIS BLOUDOWII. Iridaceae Brian Mathew 578. IRIS NARYNENSIS. Iridaceae Tony Hall 579. FRITILLARIA GUSSICHAE. Liliaceae Martyn Rix Kit Strange 580. FRITILLARIA KARELINII. Liliaceae Martyn Rix Mehdi Zarrei 581. FRITILLARIA GIBBOSA. Liliaceae Martyn Rix Mehdi Zarrei pages 50–53 582. PUSCHKINIA PESHMENII. Hyacinthaceae Martyn Rix Brian Mathew pages 54–57 May 2007 - Vol. 24 Issue 2 Page 85-131 588. STENOMESSON PEARCEI. Amaryllidaceae Odile Weber Paul Wilkin pages 114–120 589. GETHYUM ATROPURPUREUM. Alliaceae Michael F. Fay Tony Hall pages 121–126 From donhackenberry@acsworld.com Thu Apr 19 23:09:53 2007 Message-Id: <002301c782f8$b78b2bc0$7d584845@oemcomputer> From: "Don Hackenberry" Subject: Curtis's Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:05:13 -0400 Dear Max and All, I'd like to be from the Marquesas. How can I arrange that? More seriously, the Penn State University library has stopped its subscriptions to Curtis's, the Kew Bulletin, and other overpriced publications, because they are overpriced (but so is the university). Best, Don From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Apr 20 10:07:53 2007 Message-Id: <000301c78355$559cd9b0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Allium zebdanense Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:08:09 -0400 While touring the garden this morning, I noticed that Allium zebdanense has started to bloom. This is a favorite here. It also taught me a lesson, because I eventually killed my original acquisition with kindness. Reading that it was from Lebanon, I assumed that it would not be winter hardy here. So it was protected in a very sheltered place. Over the years it was shifted from one protected place to another, and then eventually lost in one of the moves. By then, the company which originally supplied the bulbs had closed. A few years ago I was visiting a new friend's garden, and Allium zebdanense seemed to be popping up everywhere in the rockery. At that point, I asked a stupid question "It's hardy for you?" Later, I saw it in another local garden, again making itself very much at home. My current stock comes from that garden, and is a highly appreciated gift. This species has white flowers, flowers which are relatively large for the size of the plant. The very flexuous scapes are about a foot high. It's very delicate looking, and to my eyes very beautiful. I thought Allium haematochiton would be the first Allium to bloom this year; it's been in advanced bud for weeks. What's it waiting for? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where local gardens are bright with Darwin Hybrid tulips. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From msittner@mcn.org Fri Apr 20 10:27:52 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070420071826.02d67b20@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Allium haematochiton Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:27:19 -0700 Jim McKenny wrote: >I thought Allium haematochiton would be the first Allium to bloom this >year; it's been in advanced bud for weeks. What's it waiting for? Jim's question brings to my mind that when this Allium blooms is very variable. I wonder what the triggers are. Looking at my records it has started blooming as early as December some years. One of mine started blooming in February and the other in March this year. Allium hyalinum is another early bloomer. I find Allium haematochiton quite fascinating since it does not grow in an area with high rainfall and that rainfall is limited to just a few months, but if watered it can remain almost evergreen in a pot. But it also copes with drying out. Mary Sue From angelasgarden2@bigpond.com Thu Apr 19 08:21:43 2007 Message-Id: <021401c78375$5e53c8f0$428eb07c@acer6fa91de09f> From: "Angela" Subject: Pacific BX 142 CLOSED Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 01:57:28 +0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: "'c'" ; "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Mystic '" ; "Pat Colville" ; "PBS list" ; "The Masterson Family" ; "'x'" Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:30 PM Subject: [pbs] Pacific BX 142 CLOSED > Not surprisingly, everything went fast. > > > > Packages should go out after the weekend. > > > > Enjoy, > > Dell > > > > Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From piabinha@yahoo.com Fri Apr 20 16:32:36 2007 Message-Id: <659638.90638.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: NOVA: the first flower Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:32:35 -0700 (PDT) hi everybody, there is a webpage for this program, which i forgot to mention. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/flower/ ========= tsuh yang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kelly@irvincentral.com Fri Apr 20 17:08:15 2007 Message-Id: <46292BB2.7070309@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: Allium zebdanense Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:08:02 -0500 Jim: I plunged some bulbs of this in a pot under 1-2" of mulch this past fall. I'd say we had a zone 7 winter here in zone 6, and it bloomed for me end of March. I found its gracefulness inviting, but I could not get a good whole plant picture to reflect that whole plant effect. Nice, though. Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b mailto:kelly@irvincentral.com http://www.irvincentral.com/ Jim McKenney wrote: > While touring the garden this morning, I noticed that Allium zebdanense has > started to bloom. This is a favorite here. > > It also taught me a lesson, because I eventually killed my original > acquisition with kindness. Reading that it was from Lebanon, I assumed that > it would not be winter hardy here. So it was protected in a very sheltered > place. Over the years it was shifted from one protected place to another, > and then eventually lost in one of the moves. > > By then, the company which originally supplied the bulbs had closed. > > A few years ago I was visiting a new friend's garden, and Allium zebdanense > seemed to be popping up everywhere in the rockery. At that point, I asked a > stupid question "It's hardy for you?" > > Later, I saw it in another local garden, again making itself very much at > home. My current stock comes from that garden, and is a highly appreciated > gift. > > This species has white flowers, flowers which are relatively large for the > size of the plant. The very flexuous scapes are about a foot high. It's very > delicate looking, and to my eyes very beautiful. > > I thought Allium haematochiton would be the first Allium to bloom this year; > it's been in advanced bud for weeks. What's it waiting for? > > > > > Jim McKenney > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where local gardens are > bright with Darwin Hybrid tulips. > > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Apr 20 18:50:35 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Allium zebdanense Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:52:25 -0500 Jim M. I've grown them outdoors unprotected for maybe 8 years. They expand as a clump, but I have not seen them seed around. Even during our recent late freezes of 18 for two nights less than 2 weeks ago, the foliage has mostly popped back and some of them managed to bloom. Totally hardy here. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From cathycraigea@hotmail.com Fri Apr 20 19:10:20 2007 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: PBS Bulb Auction Pot Luck & Presentation Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 16:10:15 -0700 Hello all, See notice below. I need a nose count - PLEASE RSVP to me PRIVATELY (contact info at end) Pacific Bulb Society 7th Annual Spring BULB GATHERING This is your Invitation to PBS¡¦ 7th Annual Bulb Dinner, Slide Presentation, and Pot Luck Please join us for an afternoon and evening of BULBS: camaraderie, food, and enlightening fun! Bring any guests you like. WHEN Saturday May 5th 2007 WHERE Home of PBS prez: Cathy Craig 307 Calle Sonora San Clemente CA 92672 (949) 939-7801 or (714) 904-8531 TIME 4pm to 9pm WHAT ƒæ Afternoon of socializing with other bulbophiles ƒæ Pot Luck Dinner ƒæ slide presentation by Dr. Harold Koopowitz ƒæ Bulb Auction with auctioneer extraordinaire, Charles Hardman BRING Side dish, small. Please email me for particulars (see below) SPECIAL APPEARANCE by the entire PBS Board of Directors Please come meet the board, many are coming from the east coast and this is your chance to meet and speak with them: ƒæ President: Cathy Craig ƒæ Vice President: Shawn Pollard (Arizona) ƒæ Secretary: Jennifer Hildebrand (New York) ƒæ Treasurer: Arnold Trachtenberg (New Jersey) ƒæ Membership Chair: Patty Colville ƒæ Seed and Bulb Exchange Director: Dell Sherk (Pennsylvania) PLEASE RSVP (so we have enough food): CathyCraigEA@hotmail.com Cathy Craig EA Taxation & Asset Management CathyCraigEA@hotmail.com (949) 369-8588 Ofc and Fax (949) 939-7801 Cell and Home From dejager@bulbargence.com Sat Apr 21 04:28:03 2007 Message-Id: From: Bulbargence Subject: Allium zebdanense Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:28:00 +0200 Hello, A zebdabense originates from Libanon and it quite hardy all around the Méditerranean. To be planted at least 10 -20 bulbs together and forms attractive tall clumps in a rockery. The rather late time af flowering (at the moment) follows nicely that of A cowannii, triquetrum, subhirsitum. Lauw de Jager http://www.bulbargence.com South of France (zone 8 Olivier) > I've grown them outdoors unprotected for maybe 8 years. They > expand as a clump, but I have not seen them seed around. Even during > our recent late freezes of 18 for two nights less than 2 weeks ago, > the foliage has mostly popped back and some of them managed to bloom. > Totally hardy here. From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sat Apr 21 09:09:06 2007 Message-Id: <000001c78416$4affe620$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Allium zebdanense Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:09:27 -0400 Lauw de Jager mentions Allium cowanii, and A. subhirsutum. Yet he does not mention Allium neapolitanum. I've read that much, maybe all, of the material commonly sold as Allium neapolitanum is in fact A. subhirsutum or other species. What say our onion experts about this? Here in zone 7, I've had trouble keeping stock received under the names A. cowanii and A. neapolitanum. Are they known to be winter hardy in areas colder than zone 7? They both are very beautiful when in bloom, very delicate and graceful, nothing like the big border ornamental onions which always bring to mind the expression "rude good health". Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the first wood thrush of the year is in the area and calling. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From dejager@bulbargence.com Sat Apr 21 09:37:51 2007 Message-Id: From: Bulbargence Subject: Allium zebdanense Allium neopolitanum Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 15:37:48 +0200 Jim, I looked up the monograph on Alliums of Dilys Davis. He states that A neopolitanum is the valid name and that A. cowanii is an invalid synonym. The form known here known as A cowanii should probably be considered as a form or selection of A. neopolitaum. It is widely used here in the cut flower industry, because it has long rigid upright stem with a good size umbel of larger flowers, while A neopalitanum has often bend or even rampant flower stems. Greeting Lauw de Jager http://www.bulbargence.com South of France (zone 8 Olivier) > I've read that much, maybe all, of the material commonly sold as Allium > neapolitanum is in fact A. subhirsutum or other species. > Here in zone 7, I've had trouble keeping stock received under the names A. > cowanii and A. neapolitanum. From ppbender@comcast.net Sat Apr 21 11:38:49 2007 Message-Id: From: Patricia Bender Subject: Allium zebdanense Allium neopolitanum Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:38:23 -0700 On Apr 21, 2007, at 6:37 AM, Bulbargence wrote: > I looked up the monograph on Alliums of Dilys Davis. He states that > A > neopolitanum is the valid name and that A. cowanii is an invalid > synonym. > Dilys Davies is a "she". Pat Bender From bearl@xnet.com Sat Apr 21 12:45:27 2007 Message-Id: <462A3F9F.3080808@xnet.com> From: B K Earl Subject: Allium zebdanense Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:45:19 -0500 I've been growing Allium zebdanense here in Zone 5 (30 miles west of Chicago) in the shade garden for more than 10 years now. I do not mulch the area. During this period we've experienced low temps ( -28 F) with no discernible damage to the ever expanding clumps. I have noticed a minute amount of self-seeding. However, a friend in the same general area, has hundreds of these bulbs in her very humus-rich 5 acre shade garden where they self-sow with wild abandonment. Wish I could get mine to self-sow as much! I have also seen them thriving at Boerner Botanical Gardens, in Hales Corners, WI near Milwaukee. Betty Earl Naperville, IL USA Zone 5 From cathycraigea@hotmail.com Sat Apr 21 13:17:06 2007 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: Bulb AUCTION Pot Luck & Presentation Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:17:00 -0700 PLEASE RSVP NOW. Hello all, See notice below. I need a nose count - PLEASE RSVP to me PRIVATELY (contact info at end) Pacific Bulb Society 7th Annual Spring BULB GATHERING This is your Invitation to PBS¡¦ 7th Annual Bulb Dinner, Slide Presentation, and Pot Luck Please join us for an afternoon and evening of BULBS: camaraderie, food, and enlightening fun! Bring any guests you like. WHEN Saturday May 5th 2007 WHERE Home of PBS prez: Cathy Craig 307 Calle Sonora San Clemente CA 92672 (949) 939-7801 or (714) 904-8531 TIME 4pm to 9pm WHAT ƒæ Afternoon of socializing with other bulbophiles ƒæ Pot Luck Dinner ƒæ slide presentation by Dr. Harold Koopowitz ƒæ Bulb Auction with auctioneer extraordinaire, Charles Hardman BRING Side dish, small. Please email me for particulars (see below) SPECIAL APPEARANCE by the entire PBS Board of Directors Please come meet the board, many are coming from the east coast and this is your chance to meet and speak with them: ƒæ President: Cathy Craig ƒæ Vice President: Shawn Pollard (Arizona) ƒæ Secretary: Jennifer Hildebrand (New York) ƒæ Treasurer: Arnold Trachtenberg (New Jersey) ƒæ Membership Chair: Patty Colville ƒæ Seed and Bulb Exchange Director: Dell Sherk (Pennsylvania) PLEASE RSVP (so we have enough food): CathyCraigEA@hotmail.com Cathy Craig EA Taxation & Asset Management CathyCraigEA@hotmail.com (949) 369-8588 Ofc and Fax (949) 939-7801 Cell and Home From xerics@cox.net Sat Apr 21 17:36:03 2007 Message-Id: <069201c7845d$031018c0$0ef8b546@richard> From: "Richard" Subject: Drosera From Chuck Powell Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 14:35:38 -0700 PBX 126 had offered seed of Drosera peltata, which I acquired. They have been growing for about 5 months now and I have no idea what these things are. They do not seem to be Drosera. They are a rather stiff leaved, small creeping groundcover with no dew glands. And, I dug one up today and they do not have a tuberous root. If anyone would like to venture a guess, I can send a picture. Richard Wagner Vista CA USA From Miller7398@comcast.net Sat Apr 21 21:20:10 2007 Message-Id: <20070422012010.C4BD94C014@lists.ibiblio.org> From: Joyce Miller Subject: Drosera From Chuck Powell Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:20:09 -0700 Hi Chuck, Send photo. I probably am growing the same thing and we can compare notes. I have a couple of books with pictures and my fail safe is to send photo on to a Savage friend in Ashland. Best wishes, Joyce Miller, Gresham, OR From Antennaria@aol.com Sat Apr 21 23:28:21 2007 Message-Id: <8C952A56415AE8D-ECC-147B9@webmail-md14.sysops.aol.com> From: antennaria@aol.com Subject: Allium zebdanense Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:28:12 -0400 I've grown Allium zebdanense for almost 30 years in New England, and it is perfectly hardy here, and one of the best species suitable for dry shade, although growable in more sunny locations too. There are 5 photos posted on the PBS wiki, at: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/AlliumSpeciesFour#zebdanense This species is from Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Israel. In Isreal, it grows at high elevation on Mt. Hermon close to the Lebanon border, along with a number of other desirable specialized Allium species. My plants aren't in bloom yet, but are in good leafage, in spite of the last week and a half of freezes and alternating snow and rain (yet today, it was like summer, at 75 degrees F. This species rarely reseeds, and instead seems to prefer building up into dense clumps with graceful arching foliage and a profusion of clear white flowers. Since talking about a mediterrannean/middle eastern plant, I thought I'd share a few links of other handsome alliums in the area. In fact, on Mt. Hermon in Israel, there are some very desirable species, such as the dwarf blue-flowered A. sannineum... I've only seen a drawing but not a photograph... but it sure looks good in the drawing. Here are a few Allium species from the area to dream about: Allium rothii - with red and black flowers (beware, some URLS might wrap): http://www.bulbsociety.org/GALLERY_OF_THE_WORLDS_BULBS/GRAPHICS/Allium/Allium_rothii/Allium_rothii.html http://flora.huji.ac.il/browse.asp?action=specie&specie=ALLROT&fileid=15710 http://flora.huji.ac.il/browse.asp?action=specie&specie=ALLROT&fileid=16397 Allium libani - for the past 30 years growing Allium, plants in cultivation always turn out to be the common rhizomatous Allium senescens. The true plant is utterly unrelated, and a picture tells all: http://flora.huji.ac.il/browse.asp?action=specie&specie=ALLLIB Allium hierochuntinum - a knob-headed true blue-flowered species. I've had seedling persist a couple years but invariably die out afterwards. It's a desert species, probably why it's so difficult to grow. http://flora.huji.ac.il/browse.asp?action=specie&specie=ALLHIE Allium carmeli - from Mt. Hermon, very pretty pink flowers, http://flora.huji.ac.il/browse.asp?action=specie&specie=ALLCAR It was said: "I've read that much, maybe all, of the material commonly sold as Allium neapolitanum is in fact A. subhirsutum or other species." I don't agree with that. Whenever I've grown Allium neapolitanum from purchased bulbs (in pots and afforded frost protection), it's been true. The species, like A. roseum, is not hardy in New England in USDA Zone 5. I have also grown A. subhirsutum, and find it a bit hardier but not much, but it is a very different smaller plant. It is probably a USDA Zone 6 plant, maybe zone 7. When will the horticultural industry finally give up on the silly misnomer A. "cowanii", which is really A. neapolitanum. It was just a horticultural "faux pas" which persists and persists. Mark McDonough northern Massachusetts, USA, USDA Zone 5a antennaria@charter.net http://www.plantbuzz.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. From jshaw@opuntiads.com Sun Apr 22 09:44:47 2007 Message-Id: <000a01c784e4$820abc20$6501a8c0@Petunia> From: "Joe Shaw" Subject: Herbertia lahue, cows, cameras, blue fuzzy bits Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:45:34 -0500 Hi Gang, Two years ago I planned to dig plants of Herbertia lahue that were in the path of a planned construction project. I finally drove out to the area this weekend to check on the population and those plants are long gone. But it was a great day for Herbertia, and the flowers were in bloom everywhere in Austin, Colorado, and Fayette Counties. Likely, these blue beauties are in high flower from central Texas to New Orleans this week. In shady situations the flowers are held 8-10 inches high, but are typically 3-6 high. The plants can be found in great colonies, sometimes half a mile in scope, or sometimes the plants are found singly. Maybe the single plants are not really singles because, if they are out of flower, it is difficult to locate plants among the other forbs. The foliage is grass-like. The photo opportunities were numerous and engaging. Too bad my little camera doesn't capture broad vistas well. The uncountable numbers of flowers become pale-blue, fuzzy bits in some images. Enjoy the photos but good luck with the phylogeny of this Texas and Louisiana species. The taxonomy is confused, but even identifying currently valid name will not solve the biological questions suggested by the literature on this genus. LINK 1: photo, H. lahue photo, close-up Colorado County, TX http://www.opuntiads.com/other/herbertia-lahue/Hlahuecolumbus.jpg LINK 2: photo, H. lahue pasture (steer is in focus, the thousands of Herbertia flowers comprise the fuzzy blue dots) http://www.opuntiads.com/other/herbertia-lahue/Hlahuepasture.jpg LINK 3: photo, H. lahue lawn (imagine having this lawn in front of your home) http://www.opuntiads.com/other/herbertia-lahue/hlahuehouse.jpg LINK 4: photo, H. lahue mini-colony http://www.opuntiads.com/other/herbertia-lahue/hlahuecolumbus2.jpg LINK 5: info, H. lahue in Flora of North America http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=242101654 Cordially, Joe Conroe TX Pleasantly warm for a few days now, recent rains have fueled large flower displays in the countryside From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sun Apr 22 10:44:01 2007 Message-Id: <000001c784ec$b8429cb0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Allium zebdanense Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:44:22 -0400 Mark McDonough wrote: "When will the horticultural industry finally give up on the silly misnomer A. "cowanii", which is really A. neapolitanum. It was just a horticultural "faux pas" which persists and persists." Mark, aren't there really at least two separate issues involved here? If, as you say, the plant known as Allium cownaii and A. neapolitanum are conspecific, that is one issue. Most sources I've used have acknowledged this for a long time. However, there is another aspect of this from our perspective as gardeners: over and over I've seen the statement that Allium cownaii is a taller plant than A. neapolitanum. If growers suddenly decide to be correct in nomenclature, then the distinction between the tall form and other shorter forms will be lost. The fact that growers have maintained this distinction for a long time suggests that many growers believe that, from a horticultural point of view, it's an important distinction. To tell the truth, I've never been sure what it is I've grown over the years. The plants I've received under the name Allium neapolitanum have varied enough to suggest that some sort of monkey business is going on. Some have been short, some have been taller, some have had smooth green leaves, some had had leaves with short hairs, some have smaller individual flowers than others ... With respect to the name Allium cownaii, maybe the reason this name persists is that it is not simply a horticultural faux pas, it is a validly published name. That circumstance is in itself no good reason to use it, but it will never go away and will always be part of the literature. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we're headed for the low 80s F today. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From Antennaria@aol.com Sun Apr 22 23:18:42 2007 Message-Id: <8C9536D34006F40-1E94-44A1@WEBMAIL-DC16.sysops.aol.com> From: antennaria@aol.com Subject: Allium zebdanense Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:18:31 -0400 Jim McKenney wrote: "Mark, aren't there really at least two separate issues involved here?" No, I don't think so. It is well established that the name "cowanii" or "cowani" as originally cited in 1823, is invalid and just a synonym for A. neapolitanum. This is just a blunder, where a mediterranean plant was imported to South America (Peru), then returned to Europe by someone named Cowan, then misinterpreted back in England as a new species. The description by John Lindley in 1823 was based on a specimen sent from Cowan cultivated in a garden in Chiswick, near London, England. In Dilys Davies' book 'Alliums, the Ornamental Onions', she confirms the long known synonymy diagnosis, and adds "the name [cowanii] has also been used to suggest that A. cowanii is a selected superior form of A. neapolitanum". However, the evidense clearly suggests the name is merely a provenance blunder, not a name based on a so-called superior selection. The very early date of this dubious taxonomic transaction should give further witness to the obvious error. >If growers suddenly decide to be correct in >nomenclature, then the distinction between >the tall form and other shorter forms will be lost. Suddenly??? It's been almost two centuries since the blunder was made. I have grown plants (in pots, because they are not hardy here) of A. neapolitaum, and those labelled as A. cowanii, and they've been more or less identical. If there are tall and short forms, maybe someone should separate and grow on such distinctions as named forms with proper current nomenclature. >The fact that growers have maintained this >distinction for a long time suggests that many >growers believe that, from a horticultural point >of view, it's an important distinction. One must realize just how entrenched the parroting of botanical misinformation is through decades, and centuries in some cases. I find the Allium neapolitanum - cowanii "thing" very similar to the Allium unifolium - "murrayanum" thing... the name "murrayanum never actually published, but after many many decades, it is still a widespread epithet used interchangeably with the true species Allium unifolium, particularly in England. Now, the question comes, do plants identified nearly 2 centuries ago as Allium "cowanii" represent a superior form of Allium neapolitanum that shouldn't be lost?... I think we're grapsing at straws on this. >The plants I've received under the name >Allium neapolitanum have varied enough >to suggest that some sort of monkey business >is going on. Some have been short, some have >been taller, some have had smooth green leaves, >some had had leaves with short hairs, some have >smaller individual flowers than others Wide variation in Allium species is well known. However, if your "neapoiltanum" plants are hairy and not perfectly glabrous, they are not Allium neapolitanum... probably one of the closely allied species such as A. subhirsutum, subvillosum, or trifoliatum. >With respect to the name Allium cownaii, maybe >the reason this name persists is that it is not >simply a horticultural faux pas, it is a validly published >name. Whether the name was validly published in the true sense is in question, because a true type specimen and collection data were never identified. In the voluminous work "A Revision of the Genus Allium L. (Liliaceae) in Africa" by Brigitta E. E. De Wilde -Duyfjes published in 1976, lists extensive collection data and exhaustive synonymy. Among the many synonyms cited for Allium neapolitanum, only one is listed with a question mark thusly: ? A. cowanii Lindley 1823: t.758 ('Cowani'): Sprengel 1825:36: G.Don 1827:85 ('Gouanii'). Type: cultivated in the botanical garden of Chiswick from specimens sent by Cowan from Peru. Now, back to the issue of superior forms. Allium neapolitanum falls within a similar catagory as another popularly grown species, Allium roseum. In cultivation, all forms of Allium roseum seem to be propagated from one original clone, so it might be surprising to learn of the true variability of the species in terms of height, size and aspect of the foliage, the disposition of the umbel (many flowered and dense versus few-flowered and open), the fact flowers are usually pink but often pale pink or pure white, stems tall or short, etc. For such a species as A. neapolitanum, found throughout the Mediterranean area, if someone wants to select obviously different and superior forms, then sure... that's fine, go ahead and do so. But in the case of "A. cowanii", I'm quite convinced it is just a centuries old blunder that gets passed on ad infinitum as a species, or at least justified as a superior form of A. neapolitanum, which I don't believe it is. Mark McDonough antennaria@aol.com http://www.PlantBuzz.com Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border) ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Mon Apr 23 10:11:41 2007 Message-Id: <000001c785b1$5927e1c0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Allium zebdanense Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:11:53 -0400 Thanks, Mark, for taking the time to lead us through that interesting history. As I read your well informed comments, I’m reminded that what we’re doing here is a lot like what happens when a taxonomist approaches naming a new entity. In this case, I’m not sure we have actually established that there is an “entity” to be named. Important as the nomenclatural history is, in itself it will not answer my question: is there an entity which corresponds to the nurseryman’s name “cowanii” and is this entity in fact somehow different than nurseryman’s “neapolitanum”. You seem to be convinced that there is not. You make a strong case for the point of view that “cowanii” and “neapolitanum” are the same thing. I have no quibbles with the point of view that at the rank species they are the same, and your lengthy and interesting citation of the nomenclatural history makes it clear that anyone taking another point of view on that issue doesn’t have much if any wiggle room. But as far as I’m concerned, we have yet to reach the point in this discussion where that nomenclatural history has much if any relevance. What I mean it this: we still need to determine if there is an entity which corresponds to the nurseryman’s name “cowanii” and if this entity is in fact somehow different than nurseryman’s “neapolitanum”. I’ve read that there is a plant grown as “cowanii” (and in so-calling it this, I don’t mean to imply that it deserves this name, or that it is the plant originally called cowanii) which is distinguished from nurseryman’s “neapolitanum” by having larger individual flowers and longer scapes. I’ve read further that this is the form preferred for the cut flower market. I would like now to hear from other growers on this matter, especially commercial growers: is there something out there being grown and distributed (rightly or wrongly) under the name Allium cowanii which is for horticultural purposes distinct from what is typically offered as Allium neapolitanum? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where a high of 87º F is predicted for today – and I’m predicting fried tulips. Crocus tournefortii has seed capsules up above ground already. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Mon Apr 23 10:19:47 2007 Message-Id: <000401c785b2$7db8bb80$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Peony season 2007 opens Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:20:04 -0400 Peony season 2007 opened today with, as usual, Paeonia mascula. If you look carefully, color can be seen on some tree peony buds. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the inflorescence of Dichelostemma volubile is already about eighteen inches high, and I can see flower buds on some arilate irises - and Arum korolkowii is in bloom. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Mon Apr 23 10:37:20 2007 Message-Id: <000501c785b4$f3b6f610$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Herbertia lahue, cows, cameras, blue fuzzy bits Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:37:41 -0400 Joe, you've done it again. First you show us acres of blooming Hymenocallis, and now it's acres of Herbertia lahue. What wonderful images! The bovines aren't bad, either. I was about to call them cows - I guess that tells you that I didn't grow up in cattle country. My one lonesome plant of Hymenocallis liriosme seems pathetic. Tell us more about the Herbertia, please. I have not yet grown this, although it's evidently doable outside here in a protected spot. I've read that the individual flowers are ephemeral. How long is the blooming season for a group of plants? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Iris sisyrinchium is about to bloom. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Apr 24 08:20:37 2007 Message-Id: <000001c7866b$052d8380$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Iris (Gynandriris) sisyrinchium et al. Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:20:57 -0400 Iris sisyrinchium bloomed here in Maryland yesterday. As soon as the flower bud appeared, it got regular soakings. Yesterday morning, when I checked it, the bud was still down in the spathe, but I could see color. I was very busy yesterday, and did not get back to check the plant in the afternoon. This morning when I examined it, I discovered the shriveled flower: it had bloomed late in the afternoon apparently, and I missed it! *^#$@#^%&^%&^%#@%^%$@#^%^% Hope blooms eternal: now I'm rooting for another bud down in the spathe. Iris stolonifera has surged into rapid growth, and has rapidly put up a scape. A plant received under the name 'Cythe' is matching it move for move - I'm wondering if they are in fact the same plant under different names. I might know in a few days: things are happening that quickly now. Rain is predicted for most of the rest of the week, and that should slow things down a bit. Little Iris lacustris is also blooming. No sign of buds yet on Iris minutoaurea. The Eremurus robustus I've been hovering over since its sprout appeared last November now has an enormous inflorescence on the way up. Calochortus tolmiei is blooming now, too. Arum korolkowii is blooming: in a hurry I might think it was just another Arum italicum variant. I've been waiting for several years to see this in bloom: it's a bit of a disappointment. Bellevalia longipes has put up two inflorescences this year; some of the individual flowers begin to bloom while the inflorescence is down at ground level, before the plant begins to put on its crazy act. Once the inflorescence is fully developed, this is one of the most bizarre plants in the garden. The earliest poppies are showing color, too. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we've entered the most beautiful part of the gardener's year. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue Apr 24 10:58:31 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:35:03 -0500 Dear PBSers - I was talking 'off-line' with a fellow group member about the bulb and seed program BX/ SX and how few people seem to donate and how many people seem to benefit from their offerings. Horticulture is not a big jump from Agriculture. Production and propagation are our life blood to an vibrant garden. Sharing this bounty is must or many reasons. I have no idea how many people make requests and benefit from the BX -Dell have any idea? I did wonder about the first sentence above so checked about dozen of the past BX offerings (but I don't keep all so this is hit-or-miss) Since 9/06 (PBX # 127 incomplete to PBX #142) - I found that 15 different people donated one time to the BX These 5 people donated twice: Dell S. Joyce M. Jim W, Robert W Tony A And these three donated three times Lee P Alberto C Alberto G Some of these are donations of one or two items, others have donated dozens of different and some quite rare and commercially unavailable materials. It surprised me that there are as many different donors as there are. I have great admiration and thanks to all donors, but also urge all consumers of these donations to do their share and contribute seeds and bulbs in the future. These donations of seed and their payment helps to keep the PBS financially alive. So this is 1) a reminder of the value of the BX to the group and individually 2) a big thanks to all donors 3) a reminder for others to donate seeds and bulbs 4) a gentle question to Dell asking how many people have received materials from the BX 5) and mostly a very big THANK YOU to Dell for his work on making this service work so well. And appreciate any comments and thoughts. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From msittner@mcn.org Tue Apr 24 10:02:58 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070424064103.0339ec10@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Moraea sisyrinchium, was Iris (Gynandriris) sisyrinchium et al. Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:02:01 -0700 Dear Jim, As we continue to discuss on this list the frustration with frequent name changes and our inability to know what we are talking about since different names are used, your post arrives entitled Iris sisyrinchium with a nod to Gynandriris. Here is a case where the "accepted" name of Moraea sisyrinchium would alert you to the possibility that the flowers could be fugacious (fleeting, brief) since many Moraea species are definitely for the retired or people who work nights. This species is very pretty if it happens to bloom when you are experiencing dry warm weather, but it still usually only opens in the afternoon and is gone by dark. And I think if the bud is set to unfurl that day and the weather isn't to its liking I don't think it opens at all. I can't swear by this, but the next day the flower bud seems to be gone. In the morning when you see the bud you have to remember to look later or you will miss it. It does however send up quite a few flowers over the course of its blooming period. Some years I have a nice display. It all depends on the weather. A number of years ago my friend Jana shared with me offsets of ones she had gotten from Fausto that bloom later and they have worked a little better for me most years as it is usually warmer and drier during the time they bloom. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Gynandriris#sisyrinchium Herbertia lahue discussed recently is another one with flowers blooming over a long time, but lasting only part of a day for me. Mary Sue From cathycraigea@hotmail.com Tue Apr 24 10:14:37 2007 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: May 5th BULB Auction, Pot Luck, Slide Presentation Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:14:31 -0700 PLEASE RSVP NOW. Hello all, See notice below. I need a nose count - PLEASE RSVP to me PRIVATELY (contact info at end) Pacific Bulb Society 7th Annual Spring BULB GATHERING This is your Invitation to PBS¡¦ 7th Annual Bulb Dinner, Slide Presentation, and Pot Luck Please join us for an afternoon and evening of BULBS: camaraderie, food, and enlightening fun! Bring any guests you like. WHEN Saturday May 5th 2007 WHERE Home of PBS prez: Cathy Craig 307 Calle Sonora San Clemente CA 92672 (949) 939-7801 or (714) 904-8531 TIME 4pm to 9pm WHAT ƒæ Afternoon of socializing with other bulbophiles ƒæ Pot Luck Dinner ƒæ slide presentation by Dr. Harold Koopowitz ƒæ Bulb Auction with auctioneer extraordinaire, Charles Hardman BRING Side dish, small. Please email me for particulars (see below) SPECIAL APPEARANCE by the entire PBS Board of Directors Please come meet the board, many are coming from the east coast and this is your chance to meet and speak with them: ƒæ President: Cathy Craig ƒæ Vice President: Shawn Pollard (Arizona) ƒæ Secretary: Jennifer Hildebrand (New York) ƒæ Treasurer: Arnold Trachtenberg (New Jersey) ƒæ Membership Chair: Patty Colville ƒæ Seed and Bulb Exchange Director: Dell Sherk (Pennsylvania) PLEASE RSVP (so we have enough food): CathyCraigEA@hotmail.com From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Apr 24 10:51:59 2007 Message-Id: <000601c78680$2a5507e0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Moraea sisyrinchium, was Iris (Gynandriris) sisyrinchium et al. Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:52:20 -0400 Thanks, Mary Sue, for bringing me up to speed on the name of Moraea sisyrinchium. Old habits die hard: the names I used are the ones I've used for nearly a half century now. In fact, I was aware of the Moraea connection, but I was not aware that it was the "accepted" name now. These fugacious irids are so lovely - but you have to be on your toes to enjoy them. That is, unless you are a Joe Shaw and have fields of them to enjoy. Later this year I hope to see flowers on Gelasine elongata and Calydorea xiphioides. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where tulips of the clusiana sort are blooming, including old time red and white Tulipa clusiana. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From dells@voicenet.com Tue Apr 24 11:18:29 2007 Message-Id: <2740.74.94.19.118.1177427899.squirrel@webmail.voicenet.com> From: dells@voicenet.com Subject: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:18:19 -0400 (EDT) Thank you, Jim, for the pep talk. I very much support everything you say. And let me add a mention of our most frequent donor over the years, Mary Sue Ittner; where would we be without her? And we must not forget the enormous donations of materials from Charles Hardman when we were just getting started. At last count, more than 150 people have participated in the BX as recipients over the years. Wow, if everyone of them donated something,imagine how much fun we'd have! Best wishes, Dell > Dear PBSers - > I was talking 'off-line' with a fellow group member about the > bulb and seed program BX/ SX and how few people seem to donate and > how many people seem to benefit from their offerings. > Horticulture is not a big jump from Agriculture. Production > and propagation are our life blood to an vibrant garden. Sharing this > bounty is must or many reasons. > > I have no idea how many people make requests and benefit from > the BX -Dell have any idea? > > I did wonder about the first sentence above so checked about > dozen of the past BX offerings (but I don't keep all so this is > hit-or-miss) > > Since 9/06 (PBX # 127 incomplete to PBX #142) - > I found that 15 different people donated one time to the BX > > These 5 people donated twice: > Dell S. > Joyce M. > Jim W, > Robert W > Tony A > > And these three donated three times > Lee P > Alberto C > Alberto G > > Some of these are donations of one or two items, others have > donated dozens of different and some quite rare and commercially > unavailable materials. It surprised me that there are as many > different donors as there are. I have great admiration and thanks to > all donors, but also urge all consumers of these donations to do > their share and contribute seeds and bulbs in the future. > These donations of seed and their payment helps to keep the > PBS financially alive. > > So this is 1) a reminder of the value of the BX to the group > and individually > 2) a big thanks to all donors > 3) a reminder for others to donate seeds and bulbs > 4) a gentle question to Dell asking how many people have > received materials from the BX > 5) and mostly a very big THANK YOU to Dell for his work on > making this service work so well. > > And appreciate any comments and thoughts. Jim W. > > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick > 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. > Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 > USA > Ph. 816-746-1949 > Zone 5 Record low -23F > Summer 100F + > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From piabinha@yahoo.com Tue Apr 24 13:35:19 2007 Message-Id: <861623.38476.qm@web51911.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: NOVA: the first flower Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:35:13 -0700 (PDT) hi paige and dr. waddick, a few follow-up questions. where is Hengduan exactly? i assume you guys have been mostly to Sichuan, Yunnan and maybe Qinghai? i assume Hengduan is not exactly tropical? what's the altitude there? have you come across any gingers or gesneriads in china? and did anyone read that short book that jamaica kinkaid wrote of the expedition dan hinkley led to nepal? what did you think? i was mostly annoyed by it... ========= tsuh yang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lmf@beautifulblooms.ab.ca Tue Apr 24 13:35:35 2007 Message-Id: From: "Linda Foulis" Subject: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:35:16 -0600 Hello All, I am one that has greatly benefited from the BX since joining about 2 years ago. A huge thank you for all that have donated, I'm having a lot of fun. I've donated a couple times, hippeastrum hybrid seed both times I believe. I have no shortage of seed in my house as I operate a small seed company. I don't think anyone would be interested in what I have though, only a small portion is seed of geophytes and those quite common. I would love to be able to unload some of this seed, somewhere! A lot of seed in my house gets composted! Linda Foulis Okotoks, AB Canada Zone 3 From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Tue Apr 24 14:57:35 2007 Message-Id: <9686d2e0b62c64edfc101c4ffeb42bcf@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:57:30 -0700 Jim W, Thank you for broaching this topic. First off, I have to second him on his praise of Dell. I have no idea how Dell keeps this up and does it so well. One time way back when (probably pre-PBS), I, along with a number of others volunteered to help sort seeds into little envelopes. I ended up working against the clock trying to get my small part done in time, and I was still late as I remember it. And recently I was involved in getting some seeds to him for a BX from overseas and it still took me a couple of weeks to finally get my small part of the task done, and all I had to do was re-package and get to a post office to forward the seeds to him. And he has kept this up without fail, non-stop, like clockwork for the entire time the PBS has been in existence and even before that in a previous incarnation ever since he took over from Cathy Craig after she started the first BX. And he's done it all for free on a shoe-string budget. Amazing. But secondly, I want to go out on a limb and expand on one of the things Jim W. talked about. Yes, I think more people should be donating excess seed to the BX, and as I well know, it is often very easy to procrastinate or have good intentions to collect some seeds, or collect them and send them on to Dell, and then just never get around to doing it. So I second Jim's exhortation for more people to get involved in doing this. (And I also want to mention my admiration of those who sell plants and seeds for a living who from time to time donate material to the BX that they could have sold for money themselves. That's so cool.) But my peeve is, sometimes it seems that some of these seeds disappear into a black hole of sorts, especially the rarer species. For some extremely hard-to-obtain species, seeds get offered, they're all scooped up, and other than sometimes getting a repeat donation from the same person in subsequent years' offerings, we almost never see anyone donate seeds they got from the plants they grew from those seeds they themselves got in an earlier BX. I know Mary Sue has passed-along seeds or bulbs from seeds or bulbs she obtained a few years earlier. I know Dell has done so and a few others. But the rest seem to disappear into a black hole never to be seen again. Now in some cases (and I know this well) the seedlings die or never flower or take ages to come into maturity. That I understand. But you would think with the number of people getting these that at least one or two would be successful and be able to pass-along these rare items onto more people. I guess I get annoyed about this because there are some very rare species that have been offered in the past even extending back into the pre-PBS days on the old IBS list, and even further back to when the IBS had their annual seed (-only) exchange. I've looked at some of the offerings they had from the 1990s. And I've never seen some of the rare species offered then or even more recently on the PBS, offered anywhere ever since then. Surely in all those years one or two people have successfully raised them to maturity and could have offered seeds again in turn. Let me just throw out a possible future example. Rob Hamilton and Jim Lykos spent their own money and vacation time away from their families to fly to the Australian desert after a rare set of rainstorms triggered the two native yellow-flowered Crinums into flowering, and drove over 2500 km in the late summer heat looking for these populations and collecting a substantial amount of seeds which they then shared with all of us via the BX. These are two very rare species (and I believe the only yellow-flowered Crinums). Dell told us they were all snapped up in an instant. Now, yes, a number of us will eventually be unsuccessful with them and possibly lose all of the ones we try to grow. Even if we manage to get them to maturity, we might not be able to get them to bloom. But surely a few of us scattered about the world will be able to get some to bloom in some future year and even get seeds, enough to share. I would be very disappointed if no one in the future ever shares seeds of these rare species in some future BX. So hopefully I haven't stepped over the line in my going out on a limb. Maybe I'm just being selfish in wanting some things that were offered in the past that someone else got and I didn't. But the whole venture depends on volunteers, and freely giving and receiving (what Dell charges barely covers postage and supplies plus a little extra for the organization, and is now the cheapest price for a package of seeds of any offered anywhere in the world), and if I made a few receivers feel just a tad bit guilty, then I think that's okay. (Besides Mary Sue will let me know not to ever do this again if I was wrong...) ;-) Anyway, that's my 2 additional cents to add to Jim's post. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a On Apr 24, 2007, at 6:35 AM, James Waddick wrote: > Dear PBSers - > I was talking 'off-line' with a fellow group member about the > bulb and seed program BX/ SX and how few people seem to donate and > how many people seem to benefit from their offerings. > Horticulture is not a big jump from Agriculture. Production > and propagation are our life blood to an vibrant garden. Sharing this > bounty is must or many reasons. > > I have no idea how many people make requests and benefit from > the BX -Dell have any idea? > > I did wonder about the first sentence above so checked about > dozen of the past BX offerings (but I don't keep all so this is > hit-or-miss) > > Since 9/06 (PBX # 127 incomplete to PBX #142) - > I found that 15 different people donated one time to the BX > > These 5 people donated twice: > Dell S. > Joyce M. > Jim W, > Robert W > Tony A > > And these three donated three times > Lee P > Alberto C > Alberto G > > Some of these are donations of one or two items, others have > donated dozens of different and some quite rare and commercially > unavailable materials. It surprised me that there are as many > different donors as there are. I have great admiration and thanks to > all donors, but also urge all consumers of these donations to do > their share and contribute seeds and bulbs in the future. > These donations of seed and their payment helps to keep the > PBS financially alive. > > So this is 1) a reminder of the value of the BX to the group > and individually > 2) a big thanks to all donors > 3) a reminder for others to donate seeds and bulbs > 4) a gentle question to Dell asking how many people have > received materials from the BX > 5) and mostly a very big THANK YOU to Dell for his work on > making this service work so well. > > And appreciate any comments and thoughts. Jim W. > From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Tue Apr 24 14:57:39 2007 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Imidacloprid and the Vanishing Bees Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:57:38 -0700 There is a good article in yesterday's New York Times about the scary bee colony collapse disorder that is happening not only in the U.S., but in parts of Europe and Central and South America. It discusses several of the suspicions including neonicotinoids such as Imidacloprid, which has been mentioned in posts here (and I have used myself). --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue Apr 24 15:07:42 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:06:53 -0500 > And let me add a mention of our most frequent donor over the years, >Mary Sue Ittner; where would we be without her? Dear Dell and all; Actually, in my random 6 month survey Mary Sue was a donor once (maybe more), but she donates far more than a few seeds and bulbs in keeping this forum going. Cyber hugs for all she does. > And we must not forget the enormous donations of materials from >Charles Hardman when we were just getting started. Yes another good point. Many people have been very generous. And the same in a big way for you. >Wow, if everyone of them donated something,imagine how much fun we'd have! Here here!! If only. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From voltaire@islandnet.com Tue Apr 24 16:24:40 2007 Message-Id: <89BC7146-0E03-4BD7-861B-6A4102E208F8@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: fugacious and otherwise Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:24:26 -0700 I find it very hard to understand fugacious flowers. All that effort for a couple of hours of show, and it is not as though they just did the minimum necessary. Often they are incredibly intricate in colour, shape, markings, scent. I guess they must grow in an area with a guaranteed sufficiency of pollinators. I much prefer flowers that hang around hopefully waiting. Like trilliums. John Gyer reports that the flower opens, then the pollen ripens and two weeks later the stigma is receptive. Then the flower remains open another week or so to receive pollen. Or snowdrops. I should keep track one year. It seems that I have had Galanthus woronowii in bloom from early January to late March. Those are the ones outside my kitchen window so I see them every day. I don't know how long the other species out in the garden last. Certainly they all give good garden value. Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8, cool Mediterranean climate mild rainy winters, mild dry summers From agoston.janos@citromail.hu Tue Apr 24 16:47:57 2007 Message-Id: <001401c786b1$ac888530$0d4afea9@gzw1jo1xwad0ctx> From: "Agoston Janos" Subject: fugacious and otherwise Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:46:46 +0200 Dear Diane, Than you should plant Paris quadrifolia. It blooms for about 21 weeks if have a good moist place in shade. The plant emerges, than 2 or 3 weeks later flowers open and never close, they turn yellow when the foliage withers. But it has got a creeping stolon, so can move about 20 cm (~8") per a good year. At the first year it bay be shy, can wither earyer or stay in soil for a year. (planting in Agust is the best I think.) Bye, Jani ----- Original Message ----- From: Diane Whitehead To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] fugacious and otherwise I find it very hard to understand fugacious flowers. All that effort for a couple of hours of show, and it is not as though they just did the minimum necessary. Often they are incredibly intricate in colour, shape, markings, scent. I guess they must grow in an area with a guaranteed sufficiency of pollinators. I much prefer flowers that hang around hopefully waiting. Like trilliums. John Gyer reports that the flower opens, then the pollen ripens and two weeks later the stigma is receptive. Then the flower remains open another week or so to receive pollen. Or snowdrops. I should keep track one year. It seems that I have had Galanthus woronowii in bloom from early January to late March. Those are the ones outside my kitchen window so I see them every day. I don't know how long the other species out in the garden last. Certainly they all give good garden value. Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8, cool Mediterranean climate mild rainy winters, mild dry summers _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From kelly@irvincentral.com Tue Apr 24 16:58:52 2007 Message-Id: <462E6F7C.6050100@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: fugacious and otherwise Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:58:36 -0500 I'm with you, Diane. If having to choose one thing over another, I am the type to choose perennial over annual, and long bloom time over short. I really like the Zephs and Habs, though, which breaks my simplistic mold. I guess I feel they make up for short bloom time with repeats throughout the season. I did not measure the time, but my Galanthus elwesii stayed in bloom a loooong time. I have a tulip which I planted this past fall (late), I'm pretty sure it is 'Coleur Cardinal', but I can't find the tag, which was in full bloom before the 18°F freeze we had, and is still in petal drop stage, all without even noticing the cold weather. Meanwhile, a clump of Tulipa clusiana 'Cynthia' was also in bloom and these blooms froze and the foliage "wavered", but it has put up some blooms since, individual blooms not lasting nearly as long as its neighbor's. Whatever the red tulip is, I find it very handsome, not too tall for me, but quite stout and easy to notice. I sure hope it doesn't dwindle over time... Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b mailto:kelly@irvincentral.com http://www.irvincentral.com/ Diane Whitehead wrote: > I find it very hard to understand fugacious flowers. All that effort > for a couple of hours of show, and it is not as though they just did > the minimum necessary. Often they are incredibly intricate in > colour, shape, markings, scent. I guess they must grow in an area > with a guaranteed sufficiency of pollinators. > > I much prefer flowers that hang around hopefully waiting. Like > trilliums. John Gyer reports that the flower opens, then the pollen > ripens and two weeks later the stigma is receptive. Then the flower > remains open another week or so to receive pollen. > > Or snowdrops. I should keep track one year. It seems that I have > had Galanthus woronowii in bloom from early January to late March. > Those are the ones outside my kitchen window so I see them every > day. I don't know how long the other species out in the garden > last. Certainly they all give good garden value. > > > Diane Whitehead > Victoria, British Columbia, Canada > maritime zone 8, cool Mediterranean climate > mild rainy winters, mild dry summers > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From leo@possi.org Tue Apr 24 17:26:13 2007 Message-Id: <43276.209.180.132.162.1177449970.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:26:10 -0700 (MST) I've been growing bulbs from seed only a few years now, in a somewhat difficult climate. Believe me, once I have some seeds/bulbs to send, they'll be on their way. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From dkramb@badbear.com Tue Apr 24 20:01:11 2007 Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20070424194801.035139a8@badbear.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:01:24 -0400 >And appreciate any comments and thoughts. Jim W. PBS is one of my favorite gardening organizations, but I don't grow much within their realm. It's hard for me to find things "worthy" of donating to the BX, although sometimes I come up with the goods such as Irises or Manfreda. At the moment I'm growing more irids such as North American Nemastylis species, so I should be able to contribute again. I suppose you could say I also contribute by trying to grow "warm climate" bulbs from the BX, such as Zephyranthes. But they never thrive here, so I haven't made any breakthrough discoveries, yet. Dennis in Cincinnati (who just received a shipment of Canna flaccida, Thalia dealbata, and Nemastylis geminiflora) From dkramb@badbear.com Tue Apr 24 20:07:01 2007 Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20070424200513.036c40b0@badbear.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:07:09 -0400 >PBS is one of my favorite gardening organizations, but I don't grow >much within their realm. It's hard for me to find things "worthy" of Okay, something I grow in abundance are cold-hardy Passiflora species. Are these geophytes? I asked this once (or twice) before but can't remember the answer! I just threw out hundreds of seeds (into a "wildflower" ditch at work). Dennis in Cincy From dkramb@badbear.com Tue Apr 24 20:09:17 2007 Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20070424200851.035213f8@badbear.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Moraea sisyrinchium, was Iris (Gynandriris) sisyrinchium et al. Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:09:30 -0400 >Later this year I hope to see flowers on Gelasine elongata and Calydorea >xiphioides. Did you grow yours outside? I did. I'm waiting impatiently for it to green up again. I'm not sure it survived the winter or not. Dennis in Cincinnati From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Apr 24 20:47:44 2007 Message-Id: <000001c786d3$61f90680$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Moraea sisyrinchium, was Iris (Gynandriris) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:48:02 -0400 Dennis Kramb asked about how I grow Gelasine elongata and Calydorea xiphioides. Both were kept outside during the winter in a well protected cold frame. The Gelasine kept green leaves throughout the winter and is not producing (slowly, it seems) new growth. The Calydorea xiphioides remained dormant until about two weeks ago, but now it seems to be growing vigorously. The Calydorea is new: it was obtained from Jane McGary last summer. My source for the Gelasine grows it outside year round here in the greater Washington, D.C. area, but he is in a much warmer area than here. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where lilacs and crab apples are in full bloom. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Apr 24 20:54:17 2007 Message-Id: <000b01c786d4$4e9cb4f0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: hardy Passiflora; was RE: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:54:39 -0400 Dennis Kramb mentioned hardy Passiflora. Dennis, are there hardy species other than Passiflora lutea and P. incarnata? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Passiflora incarnata, I'm convinced, gets its name passion flower from what it puts gardeners through. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Apr 24 20:58:41 2007 Message-Id: <000c01c786d4$ec1498b0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Moraea sisyrinchium, was Iris (Gynandriris) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:59:03 -0400 There is a potentially confusing typo in my posting about Gelasine elongata and Calydorea xiphioides. I meant to say that Gelasine elongata is now (rather than not) producing new growth. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From totototo@telus.net Tue Apr 24 21:02:20 2007 Message-Id: <20070425010218.74PHAWKEKQ@priv-edtnaa05.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:02:00 -0700 On 24 Apr 07, at 14:26, Leo A. Martin wrote: > I've been growing bulbs from seed only a few years now, in a somewhat > difficult climate. > > Believe me, once I have some seeds/bulbs to send, they'll be on their > way. > > Leo Martin > Phoenix Arizona USA Ah, but for some plants, Phoenix is probably the ideal climate. I'm thinking particularly of difficult middle eastern irises, oncocyclids in particular. It's one of the deeper wisdoms of gardening not to fight your climate and soil, but to find out what does well under your conditions and then grow lots of it. I suspect that every one of us can grow easily and well plants that others find difficult or impossible. Case in point: our east-coast-of-the-USA contingent bemourn their inability to keep tulips going for more than a couple of years. Around here, the gardens are currently masses of tulips that have clearly been there for a long time. Nothing too rare afaict, mostly big red & yellow affairs, but I did see a nice patch of Tulipa clusiana in front of one house. Even in my own ex-swamp, some tulips hang in there thanks to careful placement to avoid the worst of the wet. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Tue Apr 24 21:09:09 2007 Message-Id: <628956.95811.qm@web56113.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: PBS BX Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:09:05 -0700 (PDT) So, how does one donate? --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. From dszeszko@gmail.com Tue Apr 24 21:21:06 2007 Message-Id: <9912b0b60704241821n103baea7tf078a33b00cfa051@mail.gmail.com> From: "Dennis Szeszko" Subject: BX directions or address? Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:21:05 -0500 Could someone please post the address for the BX ? Do I send them directly to Dell or do they get sent somewhere else? I have some wild-collected Manfreda seeds from Mexico that I would like to donate. From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Tue Apr 24 21:26:55 2007 Message-Id: <594234.86210.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: BX directions or address? Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:26:55 -0700 (PDT) How many people are on the email list and not members of pbs? I know only paid members are eligible for BX. And what does BX mean? --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. From carlobal@netzero.net Tue Apr 24 22:00:31 2007 Message-Id: <20070424.185905.18186.1655290@webmail36.lax.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: BX directions or address? Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 01:58:39 GMT I'm on the list and not (sorry guys) a member of PBS. Bx undoubtedly stands for "bulb exchange". Carlo Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2049) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com From piabinha@yahoo.com Wed Apr 25 00:31:36 2007 Message-Id: <35697.16179.qm@web51903.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: people only want what they don't have Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:31:35 -0700 (PDT) --- totototo@telus.net wrote: > It's one of the deeper wisdoms of gardening not to > fight your climate > and soil, but to find out what does well under your > conditions and > then grow lots of it. I suspect that every one of us > can grow easily > and well plants that others find difficult or > impossible. a few years ago, i was at the Brooklyn Bot. Garden shop, when these brazilian tourists came in. they wanted to buy some tulip bulbs and were asking the clerk whether they would bloom in brazil! i mean, with all the rich flora of brazil, why would they want tulips? but people really want what they don't or can't have it... ========= tsuh yang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From agoston.janos@citromail.hu Wed Apr 25 04:30:02 2007 Message-Id: <002801c78713$c2c00140$0d4afea9@gzw1jo1xwad0ctx> From: "Agoston Janos" Subject: hardy Passiflora Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:28:54 +0200 Dear Jim, It is held here, that P. coerulea can be hardy in the feet of the South facing housewall. I did not tried it, but a woman planted it outside. I may report you later if I'll see the plant is alive. Bye, Jani ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim McKenney To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:54 AM Subject: [pbs] hardy Passiflora; was RE: PBS BX Dennis Kramb mentioned hardy Passiflora. Dennis, are there hardy species other than Passiflora lutea and P. incarnata? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Passiflora incarnata, I'm convinced, gets its name passion flower from what it puts gardeners through. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From dells@voicenet.com Wed Apr 25 07:07:18 2007 Message-Id: <20070425110718.CAC504C010@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: BX directions or address? Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:07:06 -0400 Dear Dennis, Susan, and all, "BX" stands for "bulb exchange," but we distribute seeds, corms, rhizomes, bulbils etc. as well, and do not limit ourselves to geophytes. If you have materials (such as passiflora) that grow in your gardens and you think that others in the PBS might like to try them, by all means, send them to us for distribution. If you have doubts about their suitability, email me and ask. I am not the Great Arbiter, but I do have some idea about what members like. Also, if you have been looking for a particular plant, post a note on the discussion forum and see if anyone has it to donate or trade. (Please do not post commercial advertisements.) As Lee said, there must be someone out there who is growing rare and unusual plants that many of us have been looking for. For instance,years ago, someone donated seed of Hippeastrum angustifolium to one of the seed exchanges. Alas, it has never been heard of since, and it is one of the rarer and more gorgeous Hipp species. I know that a number of us would love to try our hands at growing this beauty. If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS,(Members will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations.) please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk 6832 Phillips Mill Rd. New Hope, PA, 18938 USA Go team PBS! Rah, rah, rah! Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Szeszko Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:21 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] BX directions or address? Could someone please post the address for the BX ? Do I send them directly to Dell or do they get sent somewhere else? I have some wild-collected Manfreda seeds from Mexico that I would like to donate. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Apr 25 09:08:39 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: PBS BX - experience Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:02:42 -0500 Dear All; I won't belabor the comments so far, but do make one urging. I wish people who get seeds, bulbs etc, would relate their experience growing it in your climate. The rarer it is the more informative it would be to let others know what works (or not) and how things grew and flourished (or not). A while back ago I donated some bulbs and I had nice responses from list members in Hawaii (where they did so much better than here) and spots on the East Coast (where they helped infect a passion for more variety). Earlier this year Lee donated some Neomarica candida (BX 136) and I wrote Lee at least once - maybe twice about how these have done for me (GREAT!). It just takes a minute as you are checking your plants to share how PBX donations are doing. This is a definite value added to he whole effort. best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Apr 25 09:33:24 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Hardy Passiflora Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:20:47 -0500 Dear All; Now that Dennis has open this 'box', I'll add 2 cents. I grow P. incarnata here with little trouble and I know where it has been for years longer than mine. I have never tried P. lutea, but it is native not too far south of me in Missouri. I have tried and lost the hybrid 'Incense' ( a cross of P. incarnata x P. circinnatum( A South American species)). I have seen it grown successfully near here, but suspect it is very "on the edge". * I must note Elizabeth Peters of Grassy Knoll Exotic Plants (http://www.gkexoticplants.com/) She is very generous in sharing info and offers a number sibling crosses to 'Incense' such as 'Blue Velvet', ' Temptations' and others. She has also suggested other potentially hardy species such as P. gracilis (out of stock - does any one have seeds or plants to share?) P. incarnata has such intense and unique flowers it is well worth growing although it can be quite a pest in sending up shoots all over the place. Siting is important. I wish more people in colder climate would have some interest in developing hardier hybrids as obviously these are possible. Dennis this is a good new topic here. Thanks Jim W. * Incidentally Elizabeth thinks that all commercial stocks of 'Incense' are infected with a virus that cause it grow less vigorously and mean less hardiness without actually killing the plants. New hybrids are virus free and some tetraploids may be even MORE vigorous and hardy. My kind of plants. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From msittner@mcn.org Wed Apr 25 10:08:04 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20070425064645.0347a448@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: PBS BX - experience Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:06:40 -0700 Hi, Over the years I have donated many seeds and bulbs to the BX. It takes a lot of time to clean and sort and means that my house is not as tidy as I'd like with little cups of drying uncleaned seed everywhere. Every year I think that I'm not going to do it any more as it just takes too much time. It really makes my day if someone writes me a note of thanks when something does well for them so I think Jim's suggestion is a good one. My experience is that it is rare that people write me privately about what I have donated. Last year I donated quite a lot of "Mystery Bulbs", bulbs that appeared in pots and I did not want to go to the trouble to figure out. I grow three or four deep pots of these every year and have fun with them as there is always months of bloom with different things coming on at different times. I wonder how they did for others. Was it worth my time or did they all die in the wrong climate? At this point the main benefit I have from donating is that I have had such a large postage credit that it's been a long time since I had to pay for any of the items I've wanted from the BX. The majority of our list members are not members of the Pacific Bulb Society so that is probably the reason they are not donating material as they would assume that they could not participate in the BX. Also I suspect we all are members of other groups that have seed exchanges and many people share their donations with more than one group. Mary Sue From john@johnlonsdale.net Wed Apr 25 10:21:42 2007 Message-Id: <004701c78745$035f2a10$6601a8c0@XPS400> From: "John T Lonsdale" Subject: PBS BX - experience Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:21:27 -0400 Mary Sue said "Also I suspect we all are members of other groups that have seed exchanges and many people share their donations with more than one group". In my case this is certainly true. I donate lots of seed to several groups, mainly specialist societies, and also send a lot to individuals. Most of this seed would be equally suitable for the PBS exchange but I prefer not to send lots of smaller packets to too many exchanges. I always like to get plenty of seeds in a packet, it greatly increases chances of success and variability in the seedlings. I've pretty much stopped asking for seed from places, except Gothenburg BG, that include less than 5 seeds in a packet. I will make sure I send seed of my Cyclamen to Dell this summer, as well as anything else I get plenty of. Would folks be interested in eastern US trillium seed? Feedback - virtually all of the seed I received from the PBS distribution of the Robinett's material has germinated wonderfully. I am very excited to see what comes out of it in 2 or 3 years, and there'll certainly be lots of second generation seed and cormlets available down the road. Although I had no experience with Crinum seed whatsoever, I have bunches of great PBS 'Jumbo' seedlings that need moving on or planting out. J. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From voltaire@islandnet.com Wed Apr 25 12:12:19 2007 Message-Id: <9A047873-C3A7-4B5D-AFB5-8F13C215C347@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: hardy Passiflora Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:12:06 -0700 P. caerulea is not just hardy here but somewhat invasive. I don't grow it but my brother does, and new plants come up a metre or more from where the original plant was put, so I assume it is rhizomatous. Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8, cool Mediterranean climate mild rainy winters, mild dry summers From totototo@telus.net Wed Apr 25 14:32:49 2007 Message-Id: <20070425183248.08TWAPQ5JP@priv-edtnaa05.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: PBS BX - experience Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:32:29 -0700 On 25 Apr 07, at 7:06, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > Over the years I have donated many seeds and bulbs to the BX. It takes > a lot of time to clean and sort and means that my house is not as tidy > as I'd like with little cups of drying uncleaned seed everywhere. "A lot of time to clean" -- wow, did Mary Sue hit the nail on the head with that phrase. To those of you who haven't tried it, cleaning a few seeds may sound like duck soup, but to do it *well* takes time and demands you pay close attention. Many, many years ago, the NW of the then-ARGS held the Western Winter Study Weekend at Fort Worden (Port Townsend, Washington). One of the speakers was Faith Mackaness, a well-known advocate of perennial borders and a perennial donor of seeds to many exchanges. At breakfast one morning I found myself sitting across from Vera Peck who at that time was masterminding the seed exchange of the Alpine Garden Club of BC. (Vera died last year, btw.) We got to talking about Faith Mackaness, and Vera uttered a line that I have never forgotten about the Mackaness seed donations: "You should see them; each seed looks like it has been hand-polished." I figured that if Faith Mackaness could do that, so could I and ever thereafter, as long as I was an active seed donor, I strived to reach that high standard. What I discovered was interesting: while donors to exchanges have special privileges, some donors are more privileged than others. What makes the difference is the donation itself: choice of plants, quantity of seed, quality of seed. So even if pride in one's work isn't sufficient inspiration, greediness may be. The better your donation, the greater the likelihood of getting your first choices. (Dell Scherk may deny this, but you can't fool me!) To quote an old platitude, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well. And my point is....? It's that it takes time and attention to prepare good donations. A few dirty, chaffy seed capsules thrown willy-nilly into a leaky envelope just doesn't qualify. One final point: if your supply of rarity X is limited, it may be better to send it all to one exchange, rather than divvying it up among several. During Vera's tenure in Vancouver, I once hand- pollinated Iris winogradowii and got about a hundred good seeds. I sent fifty to Vancouver and fifty to the Scottish Rock Garden Club. Vera replied with thanks, but explained that their policy was to not list seed that they didn't have enough of to satisfy the anticipated demand, so my I.w. seeds had been packaged and included as a freebie sent out to known iris fanciers. Not all exchanges run that way, but it's a point worth keeping in mind. As John Lonsdale says, > I prefer not to send lots of smaller packets to too many exchanges. > I always like to get plenty of seeds in a packet, it greatly > increases chances of success and variability in the seedlings. > I've pretty much stopped asking for seed from places, except > Gothenburg BG, that include less than 5 seeds in a packet. Same point from the other side of the coin. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From Run007CB@aol.com Wed Apr 25 16:56:26 2007 Message-Id: From: Run007CB@aol.com Subject: Imidacloprid and the Vanishing Bees Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:55:20 EDT Hello, Just A note: I recently bought a 15 lb. bag of Bayer Lawn and Yard granules to use on Cannas, as one of the PBS members said it worked well on leaf rollers. The main chemical, Imidacloprid, is the ingredient used in Advantage Once-A-Month Flea treatment I use on my dog, and is also manufactured by Bayer Healthcare. Charles Edelman, South Texas ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Wed Apr 25 17:56:34 2007 Message-Id: <413137.50518.qm@web56110.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: BX directions or address? Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:56:34 -0700 (PDT) You must be a member to participate in the BX, correct? Susan --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. From jshaw@opuntiads.com Wed Apr 25 18:23:05 2007 Message-Id: <004401c78788$69fb08f0$6501a8c0@Petunia> From: "Joe Shaw" Subject: Imidacloprid and the Vanishing Bees Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:23:54 -0500 Hi Gang, The recent news about honey bee colony collapse disorder and imidacloprid is interesting. We know for sure that pesticides can have unintended effects, but imidacloprid is fairly new and maybe still an "unknown." It would be sad if it were causing problems worldwide. A colleague recently told me an interesting story about imidacloprid and its use in Brazil. Citrus greening disease is a serious economic problem in Brazil, Asia, and now the USA. The bacterium that causes the problem is spread by an insect (Asian citrus psyllid). The insects have spread around the world to many places where citrus trees are grown and they are spreading the bacterium (and hence the disease). My colleague reported (anecdotally) that one of the controls (in Brazil) that is keeping the disease under control is based upon the treatment of huge tracts of citrus trees with imidacloprid; repeated applications of the insecticide controls the psyllids and hence prevents them from spreading the bacterium from tree to tree. I don't know if the story about massive applications of imidacloprid to citrus groves in Brazil is true. However, in this country, nurseries are encouraged to produce clean nursery stock through the use of systemic insecticides (and by other means as well). Additionally, imidacloprid is widely used on many other crops. I did not find information about total imidacloprid use in the US, or worldwide; perhaps such information is pre-tabulated and easily obtained. I did find numbers for California in 2005. The report stated that 163, 618 lb of imidacloprid was used over 1,200,738 acres. The largest single use was for structural pest control (control of termites). Lettuce crops got the most imidacloprid, but grapes were high on the list as well as cotton and "general" vegetables as well as citrus crops. I think the data is for agricultural use and does not include home use, use on ornamentals around buildings, or turf use. I suspect total use was much greater than 1-2 million acres. Biology and nature are complicated; when you toss in agriculture and horticulture who knows what will result. Overall, you and I probably eat imidacloprid as a trace component of many vegetables and fruits. I hope colony collapse disorder is not caused by imidacloprid, and if so I hope humans don't acquire that particular problem. Cordially, Joe Conroe TX LINK: Asian Citrus Psyllid http://anrcatalog.ucdavis.edu/pdf/8205.pdf LINK: Citrus Greening (Huanglongbing disease) http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/CG086 LINK: California Pesticide Use (2005), Imidacloprid http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_ChemUse.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35730 From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Wed Apr 25 18:43:48 2007 Message-Id: <000a01c7878b$3ef33a80$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Imidacloprid and the Vanishing Bees Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:44:11 -0400 Joe Shaw wrote: "I hope colony collapse disorder is not caused by imidacloprid, and if so I hope humans don't acquire that particular problem." Actually, if humans were to acquire this problem, wouldn't that solve the problem rather quickly? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Acis nicaeensis is in bloom. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From extropian@optusnet.com.au Wed Apr 25 19:29:39 2007 Message-Id: <002e01c78791$9a6b00e0$0301a8c0@p4> From: "Warren Glover" Subject: BX directions or address? Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:29:42 +1000 Dell spiked my interest when he mentioned that years ago someone donated seed of Hipp.angustifolium to the APLS SX. I was one who received seed of this magnificent Hippeastrum. Most of the seed germinated and for two, maybe three seasons they thrived in their community pot. But the season that I was counting on potting the individual plants up, the community pot was stolen. I used to encourage anyone to come in and see what I had and if I had something they liked and I had some to spare I would either sell or swap. I'm a little more discriminaating now as to who I allow to visit. The person who has them now would be the only person in Australia who has. I hope they enjoy them. Warren Glover ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] BX directions or address? > Dear Dennis, Susan, and all, > > "BX" stands for "bulb exchange," but we distribute seeds, corms, > rhizomes, bulbils etc. as well, and do not limit ourselves to geophytes. > If > you have materials (such as passiflora) that grow in your gardens and you > think that others in the PBS might like to try them, by all means, send > them > to us for distribution. If you have doubts about their suitability, email > me > and ask. I am not the Great Arbiter, but I do have some idea about what > members like. Also, if you have been looking for a particular plant, post > a > note on the discussion forum and see if anyone has it to donate or trade. > (Please do not post commercial advertisements.) > As Lee said, there must be someone out there who is growing rare and > unusual plants that many of us have been looking for. For instance,years > ago, someone donated seed of Hippeastrum angustifolium to one of the seed > exchanges. Alas, it has never been heard of since, and it is one of the > rarer and more gorgeous Hipp species. I know that a number of us would > love > to try our hands at growing this beauty. > If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS,(Members > will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their > donations.) > please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: > > Dell Sherk > 6832 Phillips Mill Rd. > New Hope, PA, 18938 > USA > > Go team PBS! Rah, rah, rah! > > Dell > > Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] > On Behalf Of Dennis Szeszko > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:21 PM > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: [pbs] BX directions or address? > > Could someone please post the address for the BX ? Do I send them > directly > to Dell or do they get sent somewhere else? I have some wild-collected > Manfreda seeds from Mexico that I would like to donate. > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From angelasgarden2@bigpond.com Tue Apr 24 20:53:33 2007 Message-Id: <038801c787cc$3cf1b4a0$da62b47c@acer6fa91de09f> From: "Angela" Subject: Imidacloprid and the Vanishing Bees Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:29:23 +0800 Hello everyone, I use imidacloprid regularly, but only spray late in the evening and never spray on the flowers the bees are using. we have four thriving bee hives, all on 1 acre of land. the bees are more than happy, and producing mountains of honey. However, with overhead indiscriminate spraying, yes of course the bees won't be happy Angela from OZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Poulsen" To: "PBS Society" Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:57 AM Subject: [pbs] Imidacloprid and the Vanishing Bees > There is a good article in yesterday's New York Times about the scary > bee colony collapse disorder that is happening not only in the U.S., > but in parts of Europe and Central and South America. It discusses > several of the suspicions including neonicotinoids such as > Imidacloprid, which has been mentioned in posts here (and I have used > myself). > > em&ex=1177560000&en=f5ba22e773db984a&ei=5087%0A> > > > --Lee Poulsen > Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From angelasgarden2@bigpond.com Tue Apr 24 21:28:14 2007 Message-Id: <044f01c787d1$14ea9120$da62b47c@acer6fa91de09f> From: "Angela" Subject: Imidacloprid and the Vanishing Bees Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:04:04 +0800 Many thanks for the link to this article, I have read it totally, and as I have the scholarship through the Dept Agriculture, Forestreies and Fisheries in Australia, they will be getting a copy of the article and my observations. Also another recipient of the grant is doing bee studies of a very high calibre in Western Australia. I would say he is the most knowledgeable bee person in Australia. As far as I am aware we don't have these bee problems in Australia, and we don't have GM crops. We all have mobile phones, but not many mobile phone towers. It is certainly a huge concern. Angela from Oz From dells@voicenet.com Thu Apr 26 06:53:03 2007 Message-Id: <20070426105258.BCA484C010@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: BX directions or address? Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:52:46 -0400 Susan, Yes, that's correct. Dell -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Susan B Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 5:57 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] BX directions or address? You must be a member to participate in the BX, correct? Susan --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From Run007CB@aol.com Thu Apr 26 18:13:37 2007 Message-Id: <8C956673C62B41F-1248-FED@WEBMAIL-MC17.sysops.aol.com> From: run007cb@aol.com Subject: (no subject) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:13:21 -0400 Hello, Just A note: I recently bought a 15 lb. bag of Bayer Lawn and Yard granules to use on Cannas, as one of the PBS members said it worked well on leaf rollers. The main chemical, Imidacloprid, is the ingredient used in Advantage Once-A-Month Flea treatment I use on my dog, and is also manufactured by Bayer Healthcare. Charles Edelman, South Texas ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Apr 26 20:02:44 2007 Message-Id: <001601c7885f$70dcfcf0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Moraea sisyrinchium Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:03:08 -0400 Moraea sisyrinchium bloomed again today, and again I almost missed it. About twenty minutes ago I was about to quit garden work for the day, and before going in I took a look at the protected bulb frame. There it was, almost wide open. I had checked it early this morning, and there was no sign that it was about to bloom - there wasn't a bud in sight. I had looked at it several times during the day, and nothing seemed unusual. But it's in bloom right now. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Arisaema sikokianum is just about to bloom and Fritillaria affinis is in bloom. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From angelasgarden2@bigpond.com Wed Apr 25 21:37:27 2007 Message-Id: <065801c7889b$8773f360$da62b47c@acer6fa91de09f> From: "Angela" Subject: Imidacloprid and the Vanishing Bees Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:13:13 +0800 I agree! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim McKenney" To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Imidacloprid and the Vanishing Bees > Joe Shaw wrote: "I hope colony collapse disorder is not caused by > imidacloprid, and if so I hope humans don't acquire that particular > problem." > > Actually, if humans were to acquire this problem, wouldn't that solve the > problem rather quickly? > > > Jim McKenney > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Acis nicaeensis is in > bloom. > > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From jshaw@opuntiads.com Fri Apr 27 08:24:50 2007 Message-Id: <035d01c788c7$2602b6d0$6501a8c0@Petunia> From: "Joe Shaw" Subject: Off Topic, article Botanic Garden of Houston Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:25:29 -0500 Hi Gang, If you are interested in tropical forests I've put up an interesting article about gorillas and Ebola Virus. If you'd rather read about bulbs please ignore this message. LINK: Unseen Perils in the Forests http://botanicgardenofhouston.org/djs/unseen-perils-in-the-forest.html With luck and lots of hard work (and even more money), we'll have a real botanic garden in Houston, TX someday. Cordially, Joe Conre TX From eagle85@flash.net Fri Apr 27 18:34:20 2007 Message-Id: <8DEBC1D8-F517-11DB-8B0F-00050277B6E6@flash.net> From: Doug Westfall Subject: Bulb AUCTION Pot Luck & Presentation Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:32:25 -0700 On Saturday, April 21, 2007, at 10:17 AM, Cathy Craig wrote: > PLEASE RSVP NOW. Cathy, I plan to be there! Thanks for all of your work on this. Regards, Doug From dkramb@badbear.com Sat Apr 28 13:15:07 2007 Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20070428131431.03641d38@badbear.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: hardy Passiflora Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:15:08 -0400 At 12:12 PM 4/25/2007, you wrote: >P. caerulea is not just hardy here but somewhat invasive. I don't >grow it but my brother does, and new plants come up a metre or more >from where the original plant was put, so I assume it is rhizomatous. That sounds like P. incarnata, too. I grow it at the base of some trees and it pops up all around in the lawn. Dennis in Cincy From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Sat Apr 28 14:15:34 2007 Message-Id: <1F5F6020-A5F8-4192-9F2C-A7BBA7F17BDB@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Dionaea muscipula Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:15:31 -0700 I was just told that Venus Flytraps (Dionaea muscipula) grow from a bulb-like rhizome (and that they can be grown in southern California outside). Does anyone grow them? And if so, why haven't you added it to the wiki? ;-) Are they difficult? --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USA, USDA Zone 10a From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sat Apr 28 14:42:59 2007 Message-Id: <000001c789c5$1a3d8330$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Dionaea muscipula Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:43:22 -0400 Lee Poulsen asked about Dionaea muscipula. Yes, it's easily grown in wet, acidic sand in full sunlight. The more sun the better. It's winter hardy here in Maryland, but not at all competitive. So be careful what you plant near it. Mine were soon overwhelmed by sphagnum moss. If Witloof chicory is a bulb, then so is this. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where tree peonies are starting to bloom and Iris stolonifera is showing color. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From dryle@wi-net.com Sat Apr 28 18:52:54 2007 Message-Id: <000501c789e7$d8cf1850$0201a8c0@VALUED7B9600FA> From: "David Ryle" Subject: Gladiolus carneus Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 17:52:03 -0500 With refererence to the last two posts regarding winter hardiness the answer is yes and no. While I'm sure that winter hardy gladiolus cultivars would be willingly accepted by the North American gardening public, I'm not aware of species in the genus that would provide the hardiness rating 4/5. It should be borne in mind that this represents a large proportion of sales territory for dutch bulb exporters in particular. And as to the second comment, as someone who has been actively involved in the Netherlands bulb export industry for most of my career I can certainly confirm that while the dutch would not like to lose any more of their gladiolus sales than they have already,(bulb exports to the U.S. have been steadily declining for the last twelve years, gladiolus have been among the hardest hit) given the concentrated production on relatively little hectareage that the dutch work with, cross contamination of the field from one year to the next is a valid, and potentially costly concern. P.S. I've been told by my dutch colleague's that the orders for gladiolus in 2007 have been higher that at any tine since 1992!!!! regards David From Miller7398@comcast.net Sat Apr 28 22:25:48 2007 Message-Id: <20070429022547.C3DFB4C013@lists.ibiblio.org> From: Joyce Miller Subject: Dionaea muscipula Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 19:25:46 -0700 Hi Lee, For me they are. I have killed three. I do very well with Drosera sp. and my Sarracenia survives. I bought a marked down Dionaea at Lowes. Barely surviving. However, moved it to where it gets more sun. Maybe it will take off. Kind regards, Joyce Miller Gresham, Oregon Zone 7 From rherold@yahoo.com Sun Apr 29 14:34:40 2007 Message-Id: <4634E53B.5020000@yahoo.com> From: Roy Herold Subject: Digital Maps of South Africa Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:34:35 -0400 Hi, I'm copying a message from Derek Tribble that he posted to various succulent forums. I've tried them, and they work like a charm. I used a different viewer, however, called ExpressView that works as a plugin for IE or Firefox. It may be found at: http://www.lizardtech.com/download/dl_options.php?page=viewers Much easier than driving around the back roads of Cape Town to find the map office, and the digital versions take up a lot less room. As an aside, Google Earth seems to be getting better and better with regards to navigating South Africa. For most of the country, the satellite photos went to hi-res about a year ago (meaning you can see individual cars on the roads). Recently a group called Tracks4Africa has added extensive road (and off road) information, right down to notes about locked gates and whatnot. --Roy Still in mourning for dozens of choice corydalis that were eaten by deer. And tulips. And crocus. Sigh. _________________________________ Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 12:39:35 +0000 From: "derek tribble" To: cacti_etc@opus.scs.agilent.com Subject: Digital Maps of South Africa Message-ID: Hi Folks, I thought you might like to know that digital maps for South Africa are available for free via the Internet (thanks to the SA government's generous policy of easy access to spatial data). It is great fun to pan along known routes and re-live old memories! My thanks to Prof. Andy Young, who found that individual maps can be downloaded from: http://www.madmappers.com/ Visit Raster Maps in the top left and drill down to find free downloads for South Africa. [Other countries and other map types are not free, as far as I have explored]. However, the maps are in Mr Sid file format, so special software is needed to view them. You will need software that understands the associated metadata files, so that map images can be correctly "tiled" next to each other, or other layers added over the top. The most commonly used free viewer is ArcExplorer, but I use the free GIS (Geographic Info System) software, DIVA-GIS ( http://www.diva-gis.org/ ) (for Windows only). This powerful program can also plot species distribution maps and analyse them against downloaded datasets (biomes,climate, geology, topography, etc.). However, it does have a quirky user interface and is intended for use by professional scientists - it comes without online help, just a .pdf manual! The 1:250,000 maps (need 590Mb of free hard disk space) from the SA Chief Directorate of Survey and Mapping will probably give enough detail for most people. However, enthusiasts will be pleased to get access to the very detailed 1:50,000 maps (2.5Gb for about half of the maps), but they take a lot of downloading! If you are already using digital maps, perhaps then you can help me! Are any detailed digital maps available for Namibia? Anybody got SA geological overlays? Vegetation overlays are freely available from SANBI's BGIS web site: http://cpu.uwc.ac.za/ . I am happy to help with any queries about using DIVA or these fascinating digital maps. Best wishes, Derek Tribble, London, UK From Huegelc55@aol.com Sun Apr 29 21:45:13 2007 Message-Id: From: Huegelc55@aol.com Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 51, Issue 33 Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:44:55 EDT In a message dated 4/29/2007 12:01:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org writes: Lee Poulsen asked about Dionaea muscipula. Yes, it's easily grown in wet, acidic sand in full sunlight. The more sun the better. It's winter hardy here in Maryland, but not at all competitive. So be careful what you plant near it. Mine were soon overwhelmed by sphagnum moss. I am responding to the above discussion on Venus Fly Traps - I have seen them growing wild in the Appalachicola State Forest here in FL and they prefer open sunny locations with moist acidic soils, not too different than where you would find pitcher plants. They die back during the winter months and come back up in the spring. I don't know if they need a winter dormancy, like our pitcher plants seem to need in order to thrive long term or how much cold they can handle - but we get some solid freezes each winter that far north. Craig Huegel, Zone 9 (the new 10), west-central FL ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From talkingpoints@plantsoup.com Mon Apr 30 11:49:38 2007 Message-Id: <8A2B6A44-4DBB-4182-9C7B-69116DE2EA33@PlantSoup.Com> From: N Sterman Subject: Israeli tulips? Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:49:35 -0700 Anyone familiar with the tulips native to the Negev desert? From putman@pobox.upenn.edu Mon Apr 30 12:38:08 2007 Message-Id: <46361B5F.9020505@pobox.upenn.edu> From: Stephen Putman Subject: Hippeastrum species - low temperatures Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:37:51 -0400 It has been a really peculiar weather year. I had many bulbs flower with little or no stem. I have had this happen before, occasionally, but perhaps half a dozen or more individual plants bloomed that way this year, some of which had bloomed normally before. I'm still not sure I know the mechanism, but somebody has hinted at the difference between daytime and nighttime temperatures. Any other thoughts? I am wanting to get some of the bulb pots moved out of the greenhouse, but the weather still is too hot inside some days and too cold(?) outside some days. Does anyone have experience with Hippeastrum species and minimum night temperatures? I have always used 50 F as a nominal minimum. Anybody have experience with, say, 45? or 40? I will be repotting over the next month or so, and catching up with the bulb or two that I owe people from last year's trades. Our PBS list owners have asked that I not post here when bulbs become available for sale or trade. So, if you are interested in species Hippeastrum bulbs for trade or purchase, you should send me an e-mail address, and I'll try to compose a list to which I send when things become available. Good greening, no creamy buff yellow in the wrong place and wrong time. Steve Putman From agoston.janos@citromail.hu Mon Apr 30 13:09:02 2007 Message-Id: <001701c78b4a$1561f310$0d4afea9@gzw1jo1xwad0ctx> From: "Agoston Janos" Subject: Israeli tulips? Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:07:50 +0200 Of course! They may be more heat tolerant! ----- Original Message ----- From: N Sterman To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 5:49 PM Subject: [pbs] Israeli tulips? Anyone familiar with the tulips native to the Negev desert? _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From powell2@sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 30 13:57:43 2007 Message-Id: <1820E309-42FF-42D5-8154-155DC0D5EA19@sbcglobal.net> From: "Charles Powell, II" Subject: Dionaea Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:57:39 -0700 Venus fly traps are fairly easy to grow, if given their like - pure water, lots of sun, and winter dormancy - lost of any of these will kill them in the long run. Growing medium can be a sphagnum peat/ coarse sand mix at about 1:3 or 1:4, or a peat/sphagnum moss mix, at about the same ratio, with or without sand, or straight sphagnum moss. The traps will trigger 3-4 times before dying and if they don't get anything to eat (like your triggering the traps for fun) your slowly killing the plant. Their native to a small region in Virginia, not far from DC, and there are many, many different cultivars now days - check out some of the carnivorous plant discussion groups. Best, Chuck On Apr 30, 2007, at 9:00 AM, pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote: > I am responding to the above discussion on Venus Fly Traps - I have > seen > them growing wild in the Appalachicola State Forest here in FL and > they prefer > open sunny locations with moist acidic soils, not too different > than where you > would find pitcher plants. They die back during the winter months > and come > back up in the spring. I don't know if they need a winter > dormancy, like our > pitcher plants seem to need in order to thrive long term or how > much cold > they can handle - but we get some solid freezes each winter that > far north. From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Mon Apr 30 14:39:19 2007 Message-Id: <84ac622680ffc42f78fb3c35f8fad671@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Hippeastrum species - low temperatures Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:39:11 -0700 Yes, I have experience with Hipps and low temperatures (such as the ones you ask about). As you probably know, California, in particular southern California, had a fairly severe freeze for our climate. Many locations, even close to the ocean saw temperatures below freezing on one or more mornings in January. Several nurseries in northern San Diego County that were only about 3 miles away from the ocean measured lows of mid-20s F for four mornings in a row. I even saw frozen leaves on plants in beachside neighborhoods in San Diego, which is one of the few USDA zone 11 locations in mainland USA. It was a severe radiation freeze with zero air movement in many locations leading to very small microclimates (nanoclimates?) just about everywhere. I just heard from several growers of Plumeria in Orange County who had them killed on one side of their house and untouched on another side of their house. Even at my house, my main exposed outdoor thermometer read 26 deg F. on the coldest morning. Nevertheless, in my sizable side yard (where I grow a lot of things since it gets the cooler morning sun), I think the temperature only reached maybe 30 or 31 deg. F. Nothing I had there, including seedlings showed any indication of freezing weather at all. Clivias in my backyard (where my main thermometer is located) had considerable leaf damage, while 6-month-old Clivia seedlings in the sideyard acted as if nothing happened. That is also where I had all my mature Hippeastrums as well as some 2 year old Hipp. seedlings. Even though I tried to protect most of them from winter moisture, since we're having a record-breaking low-rainfall year (3 inches total for the year), the Hipps have been kept dry all winter. Even so, 2/3 of them never lost their leaves. And none of the leaves were frozen on any of the Hipps that had them. All of them appear to have survived the freeze without any signs that they even cared. And even the species that I worry about and keep in my unheated greenhouse experienced temperatures in the high 30s on a couple of the mornings. (Nothing in there was harmed or hurt. I have a few Episcias, but I've already learned that they act like they've been frozen whenever they experience temperatures in the low 40s F. So I always bring them inside before then.) So if this is helpful to you, then good. More likely this will confirm to some how foolish I and a number of other plant hobbyists in Southern California are in how and what we try to grow outside in this climate. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a On Apr 30, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Stephen Putman wrote: > It has been a really peculiar weather year. > > I am wanting to get some of the bulb pots moved out of the greenhouse, > but the weather still is too hot inside some days and too cold(?) > outside some days. Does anyone have experience with Hippeastrum > species > and minimum night temperatures? I have always used 50 F as a nominal > minimum. Anybody have experience with, say, 45? or 40? > From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Mon Apr 30 14:55:27 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Dionaea Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:55:12 -0500 Dear Friends; No one has yet mentioned the importance of substrate. I can grow these with minimal winter protection in 1/2 pure silica sand and 1/2 milled sphagnum with the pot sitting in distilled water. Sounds tricky, but they grow fine. And must mention that there is an assortment of interesting cultivars. The most exciting in 'Akai Ryu' or Red Dragon. Instead of a reddish center to just the trap, almost the entire plant is deep red in full sun. The cv. 'Dente' With has extra large 'teeth'. And there's more - for example : http://www.collectorscorner.com.au/plants/Venusvars.htm I think you could recognize around 10 distinct cvs. An obsession for every plant - eh? Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From BBCNURSERY@aol.com Mon Apr 30 16:45:24 2007 Message-Id: From: BBCNURSERY@aol.com Subject: Dionaea Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:45:02 EDT As a follow up to James comments I would say that water quality is of utmost importance. When I lived in Portland, OR with its soft mineral free municipal water I could grow any carnivore, and Disa orchids grew like weeds. Now, just over the Columbia River in Vancouver with its mineral laden well water all of these were ready to perish. If you are in the same situation the only way to grow Dionaea, etc is with distilled water or collected rain water. Greig Warner Zone 8 where the Indian arisaemas are making a beautiful show! ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From tony@plantdelights.com Mon Apr 30 17:09:04 2007 Message-Id: <46365AF5.1080606@plantdelights.com> From: Tony Avent Subject: Hippeastrum species - low temperatures Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:09:09 -0400 Lee: We had a devastating freeze of 22 degrees F after two weeks in the 80's and many trees in full leaf. I had several clumps of hippeastrum (including H. 'Voodoo') in full bud that were left unprotected in the freeze ( 5 nights in a row). All have since opened regularly showing no effect of the freeze. I'm impressed...wish I could say the same for many of our native trees. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent Lee Poulsen wrote: > Yes, I have experience with Hipps and low temperatures (such as the > ones you ask about). As you probably know, California, in particular > southern California, had a fairly severe freeze for our climate. Many > locations, even close to the ocean saw temperatures below freezing on > one or more mornings in January. Several nurseries in northern San > Diego County that were only about 3 miles away from the ocean measured > lows of mid-20s F for four mornings in a row. I even saw frozen leaves > on plants in beachside neighborhoods in San Diego, which is one of the > few USDA zone 11 locations in mainland USA. It was a severe radiation > freeze with zero air movement in many locations leading to very small > microclimates (nanoclimates?) just about everywhere. I just heard from > several growers of Plumeria in Orange County who had them killed on one > side of their house and untouched on another side of their house. Even > at my house, my main exposed outdoor thermometer read 26 deg F. on the > coldest morning. Nevertheless, in my sizable side yard (where I grow a > lot of things since it gets the cooler morning sun), I think the > temperature only reached maybe 30 or 31 deg. F. Nothing I had there, > including seedlings showed any indication of freezing weather at all. > Clivias in my backyard (where my main thermometer is located) had > considerable leaf damage, while 6-month-old Clivia seedlings in the > sideyard acted as if nothing happened. That is also where I had all my > mature Hippeastrums as well as some 2 year old Hipp. seedlings. Even > though I tried to protect most of them from winter moisture, since > we're having a record-breaking low-rainfall year (3 inches total for > the year), the Hipps have been kept dry all winter. Even so, 2/3 of > them never lost their leaves. And none of the leaves were frozen on any > of the Hipps that had them. All of them appear to have survived the > freeze without any signs that they even cared. And even the species > that I worry about and keep in my unheated greenhouse experienced > temperatures in the high 30s on a couple of the mornings. (Nothing in > there was harmed or hurt. I have a few Episcias, but I've already > learned that they act like they've been frozen whenever they experience > temperatures in the low 40s F. So I always bring them inside before > then.) > > So if this is helpful to you, then good. More likely this will confirm > to some how foolish I and a number of other plant hobbyists in Southern > California are in how and what we try to grow outside in this climate. > > --Lee Poulsen > Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a > > On Apr 30, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Stephen Putman wrote: > > >> It has been a really peculiar weather year. >> >> I am wanting to get some of the bulb pots moved out of the greenhouse, >> but the weather still is too hot inside some days and too cold(?) >> outside some days. Does anyone have experience with Hippeastrum >> species >> and minimum night temperatures? I have always used 50 F as a nominal >> minimum. Anybody have experience with, say, 45? or 40? >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From extropian@optusnet.com.au Mon Apr 30 20:44:07 2007 Message-Id: <002101c78b89$d99157f0$0401a8c0@p4> From: "Warren Glover" Subject: Hippeastrum species - low temperatures Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:44:16 +1000 Hi Steve, These days temps never approach freezing point so I can't offer any useful advice here except to say that desert/arid growing sp. Hips must suffer near freezing temps at night. I wonder if you have any Hip.sp. seed available that I could buy. Q charges are prohibitive so bulbs are out for me. Warren Glover Sydney Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Putman" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 2:37 AM Subject: [pbs] Hippeastrum species - low temperatures > It has been a really peculiar weather year. I had many bulbs flower > with little or no stem. I have had this happen before, occasionally, > but perhaps half a dozen or more individual plants bloomed that way this > year, some of which had bloomed normally before. I'm still not sure I > know the mechanism, but somebody has hinted at the difference between > daytime and nighttime temperatures. Any other thoughts? > > I am wanting to get some of the bulb pots moved out of the greenhouse, > but the weather still is too hot inside some days and too cold(?) > outside some days. Does anyone have experience with Hippeastrum species > and minimum night temperatures? I have always used 50 F as a nominal > minimum. Anybody have experience with, say, 45? or 40? > > I will be repotting over the next month or so, and catching up with the > bulb or two that I owe people from last year's trades. Our PBS list > owners have asked that I not post here when bulbs become available for > sale or trade. So, if you are interested in species Hippeastrum bulbs > for trade or purchase, you should send me an e-mail address, and I'll > try to compose a list to which I send when things become available. > > Good greening, no creamy buff yellow in the wrong place and wrong time. > > Steve Putman > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php