pbs Digest, Vol 43, Issue 12

Joe Shaw jshaw@opuntiads.com
Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:56:06 PDT
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Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 11:00 AM
Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 43, Issue 12


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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Crinum reblooming (Joe Shaw)
>   2. Flower Formation (cross posted on "that other list") (Joe Shaw)
>   3. Re: Crinum foetidum and water (Joe Shaw)
>   4.  Erythrina herbacea (Joe Shaw)
>   5. Aquatic Crinum (Joe Shaw)
>   6. Re: Aquatic Crinum (rdjenkins)
>   7. Re: Aquatic Crinum (Alberto Grossi)
>   8. Re: Aquatic Crinum (rdjenkins)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:54:38 -0500
> From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Crinum reblooming
> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <000901c6be30$012334f0$6401a8c0@Petunia>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> --------------------------------
> What I mean for reblooming is a plant which sends scapes i.e. in June and
> again in August or September. So far the only true reblooming crinum I 
> grow
> is Cecil Houdyshel.
> -------------------------------
>
> Hi Gang and Angelo,
>
> I agree with the proposed definition of reblooming.  For me, C. 
> bulbispermum
> Jumbo hybrids do the typical 2-4 scapes in Spring and then slow down for
> summer.  Mature plants, if well watered, will put up more blooms in late
> August and right up till frost.
>
> Therefore, I was happy to see 'Bradley' reblooming this summer.  'Eagle
> Rock' reblooms, irregularly but relalibly.  'Summer Nocturne' is late to
> start but if you keep it well watered a clump just keeps blooming till
> November (later if no frosts)--not every week but reliably often.
> 'Hannibals Dwarf' reblooms in late summer and sometimes tries to make a
> third performance before frost--it too needs lots of water to keep on 
> track.
>
> Some C. asiaticum-like plants (or hybrids) seem to bloom off and on till
> frost cuts them down.  They may bloom early in the season, or wait till 
> June
> to start, but then they can keep making flowers.  C. x augustum seems to
> bloom only in winter, and it is not suitable for me to grow becuase I 
> don't
> protect my plants from cold.  However, friends in Houston (a bit warmer)
> grow it in frost-free gardens where it reliably blooms several times from
> December till spring.  They may experience drop to 31-33 F once or twice a
> winter, but plants near the house never feel that cold.
>
> I've finally decided that one key for rebloom is water, water, water.  I
> think they need several years of good, regular irrigation (no month-long
> droughts) before Crinum give their best performances.  I can't be sure, 
> but
> that's my current "hypothesis of the week."
>
>
> Cordially,
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:55:26 -0500
> From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
> Subject: [pbs] Flower Formation (cross posted on "that other list")
> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <000a01c6be30$1d542800$6401a8c0@Petunia>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Flower Formation
>
>
>
>
>
> Irrigation for garden Crinum is great.  Sometimes languid clumps can
> suddenly bloom in the month following heavy rains.
>
>
>
> Many bulbs form flower buds a long time before they are stimulated to 
> bloom,
> perhaps during the prior growing season or even the one before that.  So,
> for me, the key to good blooming has been regular watering over a long
> season of growth, and every season.  This means that I water the plants if
> it hasn't rained in 5 days or a week (during hot weather); I water potted
> plants a lot, even if they are in 25-gallon containers.
>
>
>
> By nature, many bulbs don't perform their best in their natural
> environments, or they may not do so every year.  They have bad years and
> good years, and grow and flower accordingly.  Typically, if care is taken 
> to
> make sure they are not pushed too hard with fertilizer, many bulbs will
> perform best in gardens where conditions are better than they might ever
> experience in nature.
>
>
>
> There can be drawbacks sometimes plants that are grown "hard" have a 
> special
> look, a durability and presence that is often lacking in garden-grown
> plants.  Also, garden-grown plants may suffer from too much fertilizer, or
> exposure to insects and pathogens not encountered in the wild.
> Additionally, plants that are pushed to grow for months on end may have 
> lots
> of new growth that is sometimes fodder for nearly permanent pest
> infestations.
>
>
>
> For the most part, garden bulbs are a hardy lot, and are often hybrids 
> that
> might not even be able to survive or reproduce in "the wild."  So, I'm 
> happy
> to push my flowers with water, and Crinum types seem to appreciate it
> (during the growing season).
>
>
>
> Some plants need a down time, a stress- or environmentally-induced 
> (drought,
> short days, cold, heat, etc.) period when they shut down.  They may not 
> need
> such period to actually survive but may require it for flower bud 
> formation
> or maturation.
>
>
>
> Many Crinum like to slow down during the winter, but that can be a problem
> in many gardens; sprinklers or year-round rain don't permit the type of
> drought that is experiences by many bulb species in the wild.  For 
> instance,
> Amaryllis belladonna grows easily here in my yard, but it has never
> flowered; I'm pretty sure it needs a pronounced summer drought. 
> Similarly,
> Lycoris squamigera grows easily here; alas, it too never flowers.  The
> leaves pop up after January and die down by June; I think it must need a
> period of cold to flower.  The local rain lily (Z. chlorosolen) blooms
> reliably, but the flowers are unnaturally tall and can fall over-perhaps 
> too
> much fertilizer in the flowerbed.
>
>
>
> Anyway, getting back to flower formation, I take care to water Crinum for 
> at
> least six months of the year (March-September); they enjoy it.  C. 
> scabrum,
> C. delagoense (sthulmanii), something that seems like C. graminicola, and
> some others just deal with the rain as long as they have deep soils and 
> good
> drainage.  I try to remember to put pots of the latter 2 species on their
> sides for winter.
>
>
>
> Conceptually, I lump many bulbs (Crinum, Nerine, Lycoris, some Tulipia,
> etc.) into the same category I put succulents.  The bulbs are indeed 
> adapted
> for drought, but like succulents need water.  The amount of water, the
> timing, the drainage, and so on are all variables that might be  modified.
> For instance, I plant most cacti in pure scoria (lava rock for landscape).
> Then, I pour a little soil into the rock cracks (the soil is a mix of 
> sand,
> perlite, and 10% humus).  I never water cacti, they get far more rain than
> they need just by being here in the Greater Houston area.  Even with a 
> soil
> composed primarily of scoria, I still have to apply fungicides 2 or 3 
> times
> a year to be sure the roots don't acquire some infections.
>
>
>
> After thinking it over and getting some advice from Greg Pettit, I've
> decided I'll move the C. delagoense to a mixture that is composed of more
> sand and perlite, and far less humus.  Maybe that will make them happier
> with year-round rain, maybe not.
>
>
>
> Back to flower formation:  typical bulbs like water in the growing season;
> typical bulbs like good drainage.  Many bulbs seem to produce flower buds 
> a
> long time before we ever see the flowers and I try to help them along by
> giving them lots of water during the growing season.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cordially,
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> Conroe, TX
>
> Not too hot today, not a lot of rain this week.  I've watered the Crinum
> beds twice this week, and of course, have given no water to the cacti.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:38:30 -0500
> From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Crinum foetidum and water
> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <002801c6be36$21e75d00$6401a8c0@Petunia>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> -------------------
> I think it would be a mistake to water well all species of Crinum. The
> amount they need depends on the species. Crinum foetidum, as an example, I
> found growing at Victoria Falls, in very very dry soil which was also very
> compacted, being in a path from the station to the village.
> -----------------
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Gang,
>
>
>
> That sure sounds like one tough plant, compacted and shallow soil, and not
> much water.
>
>
>
> I can't comment directly on C. foetidum, but generally speaking, many 
> plants
> have 2 or 3 life phases.  Thus, as seeds and seedlings they need 
> conditions
> that they may not encounter often as adults.
>
>
>
> As a general rule, succulent plants (including bulbs from arid areas) need
> gentle conditions during the period when they are establishing.  In the
> American West, for certain cacti, such periods might be 2 or 3 wet years 
> in
> succession, with mild winters as well.  Some seem to require such 
> conditions
> and then 2 or 3 dry years (to kill competitors like grasses), followed by
> another few wet years in order to really get established.
>
>
>
> However, once established cacti can go 2-3 years without rain, and much
> longer with just a bit of rain.  Such plants may not flower, or they may
> flower and set seed poorly, but they are alive and ready to produce when a
> good year comes along.
>
>
>
> Many bulbs of dry lands can often be found in situations that are quite 
> wet
> sometimes, clay pans and local areas of water runoff.  Of course, in 
> really
> dry areas, the wet condition is not obvious most of the time and may not
> occur some years.  Bulbs are a storage device, storing food and water, or
> perhaps rare trace elements.  How much of which and in what proportions 
> will
> depend upon the bulb type and growing conditions.  Cacti (or succulent 
> leaf
> plants) similarly are storage devices, but they have evolved different
> storage organs.
>
>
>
> Many cacti don't mind water, per se, if they have good drainage.  In fact,
> they often achieve unnatural (and sometimes ugly) growth if they have too
> much water, such as here in my garden.  This area may receive 40-60 inches
> of rain per year; in contrast some species I grow come from areas with 
> 5-25
> inches of rain per year.  Also, precipitation is pretty much a year round
> thing here, whereas desert areas may go 5 months or 10 months between 
> rains.
>
>
>
> I think that many bulbs will tolerate water even if they don't require it,
> but prolonged soggy soil can lead to many problems.  Therefore, bulbs from
> dry areas will obviously benefit from excellent drainage if they are 
> getting
> too much water.  They may even benefit from other provisions such as more
> perlite and stones (and less humus) so that less water is held in soil 
> after
> gravity removes what it can.
>
>
>
> Even if a lot of care is taken with cacti, they can suffer from root rot
> when grown where rains occur year-round.  I combat this by doing several
> things:  1)  I never water mature plants (they get too much water as it 
> is),
> 2) I plant them in nearly pure scoria, sand, and perlite, with only a 
> trace
> of humus, and 3) I apply lawn fungicides to surface of the cactus pots 
> (just
> as I would apply to a lawn, but more heavily).  I like myclobutanil 
> because
> it has low toxicity for me, because it breaks down soon enough, and 
> because
> it is a systemic fungicide.
>
>
>
> Back to bulbs:  bulbs from very arid places may utilize more water than we
> can suppose.  However, extra irrigation can result in a garden "look" as
> opposed to a wild look.  Also, bulbs from arid areas can be predicted to
> require not-so-horrible conditions during their seedling stage.
>
>
>
> Bulbs may require a drought-induced dormancy to bloom.  So, extra water in
> summer may be fine but it may not be helpful for blooming.  I have looked
> but can find no literature out there (help me gang) where it has been
> determined if C. foetidum requires a drought, or cold, or something else 
> to
> bloom.   I'm under the impression that C. foetidum plants will bloom in
> South African gardens where conditions are not as it might find in the 
> wild.
>
>
>
> Finally, it needs to be mentioned, that lessons extrapolated from other
> succulents do not necessarily apply to Crinum (or other bulb plants).  I
> guess we all make our way in the garden or greenhouse, improvising as we 
> go.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cordially,
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:29:34 -0500
> From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
> Subject: [pbs]  Erythrina herbacea
> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <005801c6be56$69615850$6401a8c0@Petunia>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> I was reading old PBS files (the archives).  I noticed that a while back 
> (2-3 years ago) you were looking for 2-3 pounds of Erythrina herbacea 
> seeds.  It seems you had a colleage in Japan wishing to isolate 
> components.
>
> Anyway, I have 500-1000 seeds sitting here.  I was thinging to shell them 
> and give them away on the Texas Garden Web.  I have 2 large plants in my 
> yard from population in Central Texas.  Last year I collected and traded 
> about 2 cups of pure seed; I got a about $80 dollars in credit from Mesa 
> Garden (in New Mexico).
>
> I certainly don't have 2-3 pounds, but could get 4-5 cups of hulled seed 
> over a year's time if you still were interested in such things.  It goes 
> without saying that it would be easier for me to send seeds-in-the-pod to 
> you, and let you and your colleage sort out overseas shipping and 
> shelling, etc.  Perhaps it is far too late to help your friend.
>
>
> Cordially,
>
>
> Joe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:34:58 -0500
> From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
> Subject: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <001d01c6be5f$8c92f690$6401a8c0@Petunia>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> -------------------------->>I grow thaianum and calimistratum (a var. of
> natans). They are >>completely submerged all time. In summer I put them 
> into
> a >>little pond at full sun, in winter (I live in zone 8) I put>> them in 
> an
> aquarium with temperature at 18-20?C. I have not>> seen the flower till 
> now,
> but I hope to.  There is little in>> literature about these items and less
> in horticulture. >>I am experimenting!
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
> Hi Gang,
>
>
>
> Last winter I wrote about Crinum thainum and C. natans, and a couple of
> other apparently fully aquatic Crinum species.  Perhaps the plants are
> obligate aquatics, or perhaps they are facultative.  Or maybe they really
> want to be submerged most of the time, but don't require 100% underwater
> existence.
>
>
>
> Alberto (in Italy) provided a bit of information.  I'd like to try growing
> these plants, and looked for them in a couple of aquarium/fish stores, but
> did not find them.  No doubt, one or another will appear for sale in the
> future-fish stores seem to have erratic shipments of stock.
>
>
>
> Anyway, I wonder if Alberto's plants bloomed this year?
>
>
>
> Does anyone have a clue about hybrids between these plants and other 
> Crinum?
> As near as I can tell, the genus has specialized in many ways to exploit
> seriously arid environments, forests, savannahs and grasslands,
> sometimes-flooded regions and bog-like areas, and streams.  Such wondrous
> adaptation is not without precedent, but it is special and fun to learn
> about.
>
>
>
> So, if you grow the 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6) aquatic Crinum, I'd enjoy hearing
> about your experiences and observations, whether in aquaria or in the
> garden.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cordially,
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> Conroe TX
>
> No rain for a week or more, and so I've been watering the summer-growing
> bulbs.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:40:02 -0400
> From: "rdjenkins" <rdjenkins@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
> To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <007301c6be71$060d3ab0$6101a8c0@JenkinsMachine>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:34 PM
> Subject: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
>
>
>
>
>>Last winter I wrote about Crinum thainum and C. natans, and a couple of
>>other apparently fully aquatic Crinum >species.
>
>> I'd like to try growing these plants, and looked for them in a couple of
>> aquarium/fish stores, but
>>did not find them.
>>Joe
>
> I Googled and found many online sources starting at about $2.50 a plant 
> for
> thaianum and natans.
> Robert.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:10:37 +0200
> From: "Alberto Grossi" <crinum@libero.it>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
> To: "pbs" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <J3XITP$8851D1EBB7C593AFE15B5882F8B364BE@libero.it>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Hi Joe and all.
> My crinums (thaianum and calimistratum) are growing well, but they have 
> not flowered. I do not know how big have to be the bulbs before blooming. 
> It looks like it is worth to go on.
> Ciao
> Alberto
> Italy
>
> ---------- Initial Header -----------
>
>From      : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> To          : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
> Cc          :
> Date      : Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:34:58 -0500
> Subject : [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>  -------------------------->>I grow thaianum and calimistratum (a var. of
>> natans). They are >>completely submerged all time. In summer I put them 
>> into
>> a >>little pond at full sun, in winter (I live in zone 8) I put>> them in 
>> an
>> aquarium with temperature at 18-20?C. I have not>> seen the flower till 
>> now,
>> but I hope to.  There is little in>> literature about these items and 
>> less
>> in horticulture. >>I am experimenting!
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Gang,
>>
>>
>>
>> Last winter I wrote about Crinum thainum and C. natans, and a couple of
>> other apparently fully aquatic Crinum species.  Perhaps the plants are
>> obligate aquatics, or perhaps they are facultative.  Or maybe they really
>> want to be submerged most of the time, but don't require 100% underwater
>> existence.
>>
>>
>>
>> Alberto (in Italy) provided a bit of information.  I'd like to try 
>> growing
>> these plants, and looked for them in a couple of aquarium/fish stores, 
>> but
>> did not find them.  No doubt, one or another will appear for sale in the
>> future-fish stores seem to have erratic shipments of stock.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, I wonder if Alberto's plants bloomed this year?
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone have a clue about hybrids between these plants and other 
>> Crinum?
>> As near as I can tell, the genus has specialized in many ways to exploit
>> seriously arid environments, forests, savannahs and grasslands,
>> sometimes-flooded regions and bog-like areas, and streams.  Such wondrous
>> adaptation is not without precedent, but it is special and fun to learn
>> about.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, if you grow the 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6) aquatic Crinum, I'd enjoy hearing
>> about your experiences and observations, whether in aquaria or in the
>> garden.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cordially,
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Conroe TX
>>
>> No rain for a week or more, and so I've been watering the summer-growing
>> bulbs.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pbs mailing list
>> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php
>>
>
> Alberto Grossi
> Italy
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:21:56 -0400
> From: "rdjenkins" <rdjenkins@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
> To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <001e01c6beec$37c0f670$6101a8c0@JenkinsMachine>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Shaw" <jshaw@opuntiads.com>
> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:34 PM
> Subject: [pbs] Aquatic Crinum
>
>
>>Last winter I wrote about Crinum thainum and C. natans <snip> Or maybe 
>>they
>>really
>>want to be submerged most of the time, but don't require 100% underwater
>>existence.
>>Joe
>
> What an intriguing question which naturally begs for practical 
> exploration!
> That's on my list of to-dos now.
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> pbs mailing list
> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php
>
>
> End of pbs Digest, Vol 43, Issue 12
> ***********************************
>
> 


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