From dells@voicenet.com Fri Jul 1 06:23:21 2005 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific Bx 93 CLOSED Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 06:22:28 -0400 Packages should go out after the weekend. Enjoy, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Fri Jul 1 07:08:26 2005 Message-Id: <000501c57e2d$23967c20$42145351@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: Pacific Bx 93 CLOSED Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:07:58 +0200 Thank You,Mr.Sherk Have a nice weekend. Regards, Marie-Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: ; ; ; ; ; ; "Cathy Craig" ; ; Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 12:22 PM Subject: [pbs] Pacific Bx 93 CLOSED > Packages should go out after the weekend. > > Enjoy, > Dell > > --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From merrill@gamblegarden.org Fri Jul 1 14:58:30 2005 Message-Id: <20050701185829.66F4B32C01F@smtpauth01.csee.siteprotect.com> From: "Merrill Jensen" Subject: New Cypella photo on the wiki Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:58:27 -0700 Greetings all, My new planting of Cypella coelestis peaked this past week and I had to share a photo of them. These were planted last fall from 4" pots. http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Cypella In addition, I've been harvesting seed off of our Freesia laxa. Is there any special protocol for getting these going? They have spread well on their own but would like to try starting them in the greenhouse to transplant to other areas of the Garden. Thanks for any information you can share, Merrill Jensen Director of Horticulture Elizabeth F. Gamble Garden 1431 Waverley Street Palo Alto, CA 94301 www.gamblegarden.org 650.329.1356 ext33 From msittner@mcn.org Fri Jul 1 19:52:00 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050701163339.05158bc0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Scilla maderensis Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:51:00 -0700 Hi everyone, Arnold, Susan, and I get a lot of emails to our list from nonmembers.Some is just spam and we discard it. Sometimes people have questions and need help and we encourage those people to join and ask their questions to the group rather than trying to answer them ourselves. Some do, most do not. Other messages are replies to the archives, but meant for the person who wrote the email they are responding to. If we can figure out who they wanted we forward the message, and if not , we invite them to join the list and ask their question hoping the right person will respond. The other mail we get comes from people who are responding to a thread in the archives and wanting to provide information about the thread even if the discussion took place a long time ago. We got one of those today about Scilla maderensis. I am passing it on to the group. One question from me has to do with Autonoe which is one of the genera in the Scilla split. I see that Catarina spelled it Autonoë. Should we be spelling it that way on the wiki? When you look in IPNI they don't seem to use symbols. I'm sure there are members of our group who can explain about this. Mary Sue Hello, This species is endemic from the Madeira archipelago. It is in extinction and so it is not easy to find it in the Island, BUT it is preserved in the Botanical garden of Funchal, Madeira, Portugal, in the faculty of Pharmacy of Lisbon, Portugal, and in the Garcia da Orta garden, a garden made for the EXPO 98 in Lisbon. I have made the phytochemical and pharmacological study of the bulbs (my PhD Thesis). The species proved to have substances with pharmacological action on the heart and on vas deferens, and, if you want, you can see some of this information if you search by: Scilla maderensis Autonoë madeirensis (the new synonymy) C Dias Dias C Catarina Dias I hope you find some of the information you wanted Have a good day Catarina Dias From jimmckenney@starpower.net Fri Jul 1 22:17:44 2005 Message-Id: <3u3f9p$1joit5@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: dieresis: was RE: Scilla maderensis Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 22:17:40 -0400 The two little dots on the e of Autonoë are an example of what is known as dieresis. Don't confuse them with the umlaut. A dieresis is typically used to separate (in pronunciation) the two vowels which make up what under ordinary circumstances would be a diphthong. (For the curious, an umlaut changes the sound of the vowel it governs.) During my lifetime, the preferred spelling has shifted from the older diaeresis to dieresis. The word literally means "to divide" or "to tear apart". In textbook Latin, the letter combination oe is a diphthong and represents the English sound oi as in oink. When it is written oë, the o and the e are to be pronounced separately. Thus, Autonoë is (or should be) a four syllable word, not a three syllable word. I think, but I'm not sure and will check, that the use of the dieresis is optional in formal botanical nomenclature. Europeans are more apt to use it, probably because the underlying sound changes it signifies agree with the way their languages work. Not so English. Note that the letter combination oi is not a diphthong in Latin. If you are coining a new Latin word and want to indicate the English sound oi, you write oe. Also, in Latin and latinized words with this letter combination, the oi is not pronounced oi as in oink, but rather as the o sound followed by the i sound. This is almost universally ignored in spoken English, with the curious exception of the word coitus, learning the "proper" pronunciation of which is an adolescent rite of passage. To have had the temerity to use the word in the first place, only to be humiliated by being told that you are mispronouncing it, leaves such a bad taste for most of us that it no doubt is one reason that the f word is now all but ubiquitous. The other related pitfall centers on scientific names ending -oides and related words. The o and i in these words properly are pronounced separately, i.e. not as oi in oink. About a decade ago, the editor of a nationally known gardening magazine printed botanical names with this -oides ending with the dieresis. For instance, the word abrotanoides would have been written abrotanoïdes. This is poor form. Why? Because oi is not a diphthong in Latin; the use of the dieresis in that case is redundant. Had that editor used the dieresis in the cognate English words, he would, in my opinion, have been dead right - and hopelessly quixotic. As you know, there are loads words in English with the oid ending. Here again, the battle was lost long ago; most native speakers of English are clueless about this. Ideally, these words should have been written, for instance, androïd and pronounced as a three syllable word. An additional complication is that words like android are adjectival in spirit but are used as nouns. Remember Alberto's bulboid? Caffeine and cocaine are similar: they should have been written caffeïne and cocaïne (i.e. caffe + ine and coca + ine). I wrote "should", meaning that to do so might have caused them to be pronounced in a way which made their meaning more obvious - or at any rate nod courteously to tradition. Those horses have been out of the barn for a long time, too long a time. In the English speaking world, the use of the dieresis is obsolescent, both in everyday English words derived from Latin and Greek and in scientific terminology. In the English speaking world, the battle has probably been lost for Aloë, Kalenchoë, Daboëcia, Cloë, Danaë and others. When I made a wiki entry for Hymenocallis 'Sulfur Queen', I mentioned one of its parents: Hymenocallis amancaës. On the other hand, its use persists in words of French origin such as naïve. That's presumably because if we English speaking people omit it, the French are there to remind us that we can't spell. Cicero and Homer, on the other hand, have not had much to say for a few thousand years. But I do remember hearing about a Monty Python routine which suggested that if the Romans were still around it might be different. This obsolescence is presumably why IPNI ignores them. Most botanists and professional horticulturists I've known have pronounced botanical names as if they were some weird sort of English. We English-speaking people are very ethnocentric about these things, and we have a long tradition of being bamboozled and scammed by things decked out in phony Latin and Greek. We seem to like it. Incidentally, what say our Spanish-speaking members about the word amancaës. Do you pronounce it as a four syllable word as I do, or do you pronounce it as a three syllable word the way most (I assume) speakers of English do? The above gives you an idea of why I think spelling contests are silly. English orthography is a bag of tricks. This could go on and on. Jim McKenney From ajbroome@xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 2 01:54:42 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20050702174827.03288290@pop3.xtra.co.nz> From: Andrew Broome Subject: Oxalis Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 17:54:37 +1200 Andras said... > I am a horticulturist from Hungary. my friend and I collect Oxalis plants, > and we would like to get in touch with other professionalists of this > topic. I only just saw this but, there's a YAHOO group specifically aimed at these plants, you (or anyone else for that matter) can sign up via my page at: http://freewebtown.com/oxalis/ > Is there an Oxalis monograph available? Salter did an extensive monograph on the South African species back in the '40s and not a lot has been published since then. Some people (Bellstedt, Dreyer et al) are doing some work on the genus there at the moment though and hopefully some good new information will come out of that. Andrew, in NZ. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.5/32 - Release Date: 27/06/2005 From jshields104@insightbb.com Sat Jul 2 08:43:41 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050702074302.01f06e10@mail.insightbb.com> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: New List for Crinum Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:43:47 -0500 Hi all, Someone has started a new group on Yahoo for crinums. You can find it at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crinum/ It is brand new, and there are not many members just yet. I joined up. Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From dells@voicenet.com Sun Jul 3 14:11:06 2005 Message-Id: <20050703181105.CBF154C008@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Keep the Pacific Bulb Society BX Going!! Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 14:10:59 -0400 Dear Gardeners, Since, for many of us, this is the season of plenty - plenty of heat, plenty of bugs, and plenty of growth and procreation in summer geophytes - please take the time to save seed and baby bulbs when you are struggling to keep your gardens from looking like something from "The Giant Man-eating Tomatoes from Mars." Your donations to the BX mean a great deal (literally) to all of us. Send donations to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA 18928, USA. Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk. Director, PBS BX From xerics@cox.net Sun Jul 3 15:40:21 2005 Message-Id: <001301c58007$05ee8010$63cb6f44@richard> From: "Richard" Subject: Drimia? Drimiopsis Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:40:10 -0700 I have some bulbs purchased as Ledebouria sp., which seem to be something else. They look somewhat like some others I have called Drimiopsis kirkii which may be an obsolete name. They are, however, much larger with very dark green and spotted leaves. The bulbs form near the surface and are reddish but only half buried. They offset well. I have pictures but I can't figure out the wiki thing and the login has me stumped as well. I would be happy to send someone an offset if they can identify it! Richard Wagner Vista, CA From myke@new.co.za Sun Jul 3 16:02:02 2005 Message-Id: <006701c5800a$20c61d50$fc7bfea9@mykecbcb148b69> From: "Myke Ashley-Cooper" Subject: Keep the Pacific Bulb Society BX Going!! Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:48:58 +0200 Do I have to become a member of the society in order to be eligible for these? As a cartoonist, I am not very rich . . . . . . . but, if you insist . . . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: Dell Sherk To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 8:10 PM Subject: [pbs] Keep the Pacific Bulb Society BX Going!! Dear Gardeners, Since, for many of us, this is the season of plenty - plenty of heat, plenty of bugs, and plenty of growth and procreation in summer geophytes - please take the time to save seed and baby bulbs when you are struggling to keep your gardens from looking like something from "The Giant Man-eating Tomatoes from Mars." Your donations to the BX mean a great deal (literally) to all of us. Send donations to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA 18928, USA. Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk. Director, PBS BX _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From pekasky@earthlink.net Sun Jul 3 15:58:36 2005 Message-Id: <18055478.1120420716366.JavaMail.root@wamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: Drimia? Drimiopsis Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:58:36 -0400 (EDT) From jshields104@insightbb.com Mon Jul 4 18:44:54 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050704174049.01eefa20@mail.insightbb.com> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: New Group for Haemanthus and Scadoxus Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:45:02 -0500 Hi all, I have started a new group on Yahoo, the Haemanthus and Scadoxus Species Interest Group. You can find it at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/haemanthus/ I intend this new Yahoo group to replace the Haemanthus - Scadoxus cc: mailing list I started a year or two ago. It is brand new, and there are not many members just yet. I invite all interested persons to join us there for detailed discussions of these two African amaryllid genera. Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Tue Jul 5 11:44:50 2005 Message-Id: <000801c58178$696e92c0$08155351@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: Help Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:44:21 +0200 Hello everyone, I have a problem with a white lelie(it is a hardy one) of which I do not know the name, on the stems(in the armpits) hanging small bulbs of seed. I think that for this reason none or few flowers come to flower,can't I better throw away these bulbs? Sorry if words are wrongly speld. Regards, Marie-Paule From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 5 13:17:50 2005 Message-Id: <42CABD85.736B1713@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: Help Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:04:05 -0700 Dear Marie-Paule: I would not throw away the lily until you know exactly what is happening. If it by chance has Lilium lancifolium (syn.. L. tigrinum) blood in the parentage, i.e. an Asiatic upright, or pendant, the 'seed' you describe could be bulbils, what do they look like? Miniature bulbs, dark in color? How does the foliage look? Is there any sign of mottling? Under what name was it bought? With such information it might be easier to help you. Cheers, John E. Bryan Marie-Paule wrote: > > Hello everyone, > I have a problem with a white lelie(it is a hardy one) of which I do not know the name, on the stems(in the armpits) hanging small bulbs of seed. I think that for this reason none or few flowers come to flower,can't I better throw away these bulbs? > > Sorry if words are wrongly speld. > > Regards, > > Marie-Paule > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From arnold@nj.rr.com Tue Jul 5 15:05:52 2005 Message-Id: <77feb8781f9e.781f9e77feb8@rdc-nyc.rr.com> From: arnold@nj.rr.com Subject: Help Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:05:49 -0500 Marie-Paule: They are stem bulbils and can be planted now or over wintered in the refrigerator in coir or peat and planted in the spring. A good way t increase your lily collection. Arnold From khixson@nu-world.com Tue Jul 5 15:36:34 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050705120427.028baab0@mail.nu-world.com> From: Kenneth Hixson Subject: Help Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:36:15 -0700 Dear Marie-Paule >I have a problem with a white lelie(it is a hardy one) of which I do not >know the name, on the stems(in the armpits) hanging small bulbs of seed. I >think that for this reason none or few flowers come to flower,can't I >better throw away these bulbs? It is really hard to give meaningful advice when we don't know if your lily is really a lily, and not a calla lily or lily-of-peru, or something else. We can only guess if the plant is/should be flowering now, or some other time. In other words, what follows may be completely wrong, but it is probably the best I can do without further information. Assuming it actually is a lily, the small bulbs in the leaf axils are called bulbils. They are vegetative reproductions, like divisions. Seeds come only from flowers, so they can't be seeds. At the end of the season, the bulbils can be planted, and will produce small copies of the mother, which will probably not flower for a couple years. Many lilies will produce bulbils, most often asiatics such as L. lancifolium, as John B. mentioned. Trumpet lilies do so occasionally, especially if they have L. sulfureum or L. sargentianum in their ancestry. Bulbils are particularly likely to form if the mother bulb is too small to flower this year, but growing vigorously. Thus, throwing away your lily is probably (yes, probably) the wrong thing to do, it is growing vigorously but too small to flower this year, next year it should flower normally. It might be worthwhile to go to an internet search engine such as www.images.google.com and search for "white lilies" or the like, and see if anything is similiar to your lily. The PBS Wiki is another place to look at images of lilies, and perhaps you could tell us it resembles some particular image. If you type in bulbils instead of "white Lily", you will find images of lilies with bulbils, and can make a guess if that is what your lily has. Ken From robertwerra@pacific.net Tue Jul 5 16:39:43 2005 Message-Id: <001601c581a1$807f20a0$82fefea9@popbob> From: robertwerra@pacific.net Subject: more moraea pictures Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:38:29 -0700 Hello, Replying to Mary Sue's request for info on my moraea pictures. I'm hesitant. My wife says there aren't 20 people in the world who care about moraeas and she is always right. Most are fugacious, many are small blossomed, and they aren't easy to get. But for reasons obscure, I love them all along with calochorti. M. neopavonia is a stunner with large blossoms lasting several days, repeats for several weeks, and hand pollinates easily. M. papillionacea is 5-6 in. tall with fugacious attractive variable yellow, orange, or pink blossoms which repeat for 2 weeks. I find it difficult but worth it. M. unguiculata is 10 -12 in. with small, interesting, white with green blossoms lasting several days, repeats for 3 wks.and pollinates + -. M. serpentina comes from the drier, hotter, sandier area and adapts with narrow coiled leaves. It is 4-6 in. with large for its size very attractive yellow and white fugacious blossoms, that can repeat every 3-6 days for 2 mo. I can't pollinate it, but I think it can be ?stoloniferous. It lives long. I have one that has lasted 14 yrs. M. tortillis is my favorite for its absolute pluckiness. It too comes from the drier sandy area and its leaves are like coiled watch springs. It is dimunitive, 2-5 in. tall, scrawny, and appears attractive solely for its coiled leaf on the ground. Then one day behold- a bud appears and after several days turns into a relatively huge blue blossom that weighs the plant almost to the ground. Fortunately, it is fugacious because the plant could not hold it up for more than a day. You say well done plant, but it isn't done. In 5-7 days out of nowhere it repeats and sometimes does so for over 2 months. Absolutely amazing. However, you can't miss lunch when it performs or you will miss it. It is difficult to pollinate, doesn't spread, but is longlived. Mine have bloomed for 7 yrs. From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Tue Jul 5 17:15:50 2005 Message-Id: <000f01c581a6$a6b0dc50$a633a551@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: re;help Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 23:15:20 +0200 Hello John, The bulbils are black, approximately 3mm. The foliage is green and elips, and the plant is well healthy,no sickness to see. I go in search,and hope of finding the tiket with the name on it. Regards, Marie-Paule Belgium usda 7= -17celsius From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Tue Jul 5 17:29:45 2005 Message-Id: <002701c581a8$98ad9a10$a633a551@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: Thank You Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 23:29:16 +0200 Hello all, Thank You very much,for the good information,in a few days I hope that one of the(very few) blooms go open,I take a foto and trey to put it on wiki.I think and hope that it is because the bulbs are not fat enough.The bulbils from the year before grow like hell,now,with all of Your good information, I wait a few years before I take them off. Thank You all, Regards, Marie-Paule From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 5 17:32:30 2005 Message-Id: <3u3f9p$1kmpdc@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: spiraled leaves; was RE: more moraea pictures Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:32:27 -0400 After reading Bob's account, I had to take a look at the wiki images of Moraea tortillis (Microsoft Word corrected tortillis to tortillas; I had to laugh - it's not even a South Amarican species). Beautiful as the flowers are, it was the spiraled leaves which really got my attention. These of course reminded me of the images of Gethyllis on the wiki. Until I joined this list, I had never seen pictures of Gethyllis (much less live plants) or most Moraea. Keep them coming! These are fascinating and beautiful. With respect to the spiraled foliage: has anyone proposed a plausible explanation for the adaptive significance of spiraled foliage? And do the Moraea and Gethyllis with spiraled foliage come from the same general areas? Jim McKenney From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Tue Jul 5 18:01:07 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050705235916.01eb9848@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Keep the Pacific Bulb Society BX Going!! Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:00:50 +0200 At 20:10 03-07-2005, Dell Sherk wrote: >Dear Gardeners, > >Since, for many of us, this is the season of plenty - plenty of heat, plenty >of bugs, and plenty of growth and procreation in summer geophytes - please >take the time to save seed and baby bulbs when you are struggling to keep >your gardens from looking like something from "The Giant Man-eating Tomatoes >from Mars." Your donations to the BX mean a great deal (literally) to all of >us. I assume that no one is interested in run-of-the-mill large amaryllis? I get untold number of seeds and bulbils every year. Carol From dells@voicenet.com Tue Jul 5 18:46:00 2005 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 94 Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:45:01 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 94" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: . Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER.. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Arnold Trachtenberg: 1. Bulbs of Hyacinthoides hispanica (syn. Scilla hispanica, Scilla campanulata, and a multitude of other syns); mixed blue, pink, and white. From Dell Sherk: 2. Seed of Hippeastrum vittatum (actually called: "H. vittatum x H. vittatum hybrid") x Sprekelia formosissima. I was less than meticulous when I did this pollen sharing, so the progeny could also be "H. vittatum x H. vittatum hybrid - selfed" - which wouldn't be bad either. From Pat Colville: 3. Small bulbs of Crinum cv. "Parent variegated, likes shade." SEED: 4. Hippeastrum 'Fairytale'; nice mini 5. Hippeastrum papilio x H. 'Royal Velvet' 6. H. mini papilio; not much different from regular H. papilio 7. H. 'Gold Medal' 8. Hippeastrum; white, trumpet-shaped with red stripes from an old clump 9. Veltheimia bracteata; "very fresh, plant immediately" 10. Melasphaerula ramosa 11. Synnotia villosa (syn Sparaxis villosa) Thank you, Arnold and Pat !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 19:48:10 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Keep the Pacific Bulb Society BX Going!! Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:48:09 +0000 >From: Carol Jensen >Reply-To: Pacific Bulb Society >To: Pacific Bulb Society ,"'Pacific Bulb Society'" > >Subject: Re: [pbs] Keep the Pacific Bulb Society BX Going!! >Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:00:50 +0200 > > >I assume that no one is interested in run-of-the-mill large amaryllis? I >get untold number of seeds and bulbils every year. > >Carol Hi Carol: Are they amaryllis or hippeastrums? Either case, they are ideal plants to learn how to grow amaryllids from seed for newcomers. There will be lots of people interested in them. Anything that can be a weed for some of us can be a welcome addition to others' collections. All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ From pekasky@earthlink.net Tue Jul 5 19:50:59 2005 Message-Id: <7274871.1120607458870.JavaMail.root@wamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: Keep the Pacific Bulb Society BX Going!! Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:50:58 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From msittner@mcn.org Wed Jul 6 10:15:06 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050706065112.02a6b870@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: more moraea pictures Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:14:35 -0700 Dear Bob, Thanks for the information about your Moraea pictures. I think Marlene may underestimate the interest in Moraea. Quite a few years ago when I was doing the Topic of the Week for IBS and asked people what they wanted to talk about, Moraea got more votes than any other genus. And the Moraea wiki page is one of our more popular wiki pages. Now that we have split it up the count is underestimated and it still is right up there. It is the 2nd most popular genus page that includes South African bulbs on the wiki. Oxalis is the first which amuses me since Oxalis wasn't included in the Color Encyclopedia of Cape Bulbs and isn't grown by many of the South African bulb enthusiasts. The other two genera that are from South Africa that are popular on the wiki are Gladiolus followed by Nerine. If the Moraea flowers were open longer and not when some people are at work and were hardier, more people would share your enthusiasm. Certainly discovering the flowers in the wild is a treat as many of them are so intricate and lovely. Seeing a flower even if only for a day on plants over a long period of time every now and then is a nice treat. I think with delight when I see a bud, "Oh, my Moraea is going to bloom today and I need to look for it later." A couple of them make up for having flowers that only last part of a day to a couple of days by blooming for such a long time. Moraea polystachya is like that and since it blooms so early when those of us in Mediterranean climates are eager for flowers, it is especially nice. And despite all the negative things people say about them, the Homeria subgroup continues to be a great favorite of mine as it is in bloom for months in my garden and always attracts positive comments from visitors and is so easy. Mary Sue From btankers@cbgnt.chicagobotanic.org Wed Jul 6 10:19:56 2005 Message-Id: <52857FDB394B7E45BA1F2E60D7313E2A71C694@cbgmail.chicagobotanic.org> From: "Boyce Tankersley" Subject: Recommended new reference (Off topic) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:23:21 -0500 Dear List: Received yesterday a long awaited reference entitled "Ornamental Plants of Russia and Surrounding States" by Dr. Tatyana Shulkina of the Missouri Botanical Garden, formerly of the Komarov Institute in St. Petersburg, Russia. Very well written with excellent photographs and a wealth of information about geophytes (as well as a number of other plant habits) of the former Soviet Union. This book reflects the cumulative knowledge gained over decades spent studying plants in their natural habitats and evaluating their ability to grow under garden conditions at one of the worlds finest botanic gardens (Komarov). A 'must read' for anyone interested in growing geophytes from eastern Europe, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Tien Shan, Siberia, the Russian Far East. An amazing breadth and depth of knowledge condensed into this single volume. In appreciation for my encouragement for the publication of this book I received a complimentary copy. I am not sure where it is can be purchased, but is is well worth searching out. Boyce Tankersley Manager of Living Plant Documentation Chicago Botanic Garden 1000 Lake Cook Road Glencoe, IL 60022 btankers@chicagobotanic.org From GardenPT@aol.com Wed Jul 6 10:39:54 2005 Message-Id: <15.481ba2d0.2ffd4733@aol.com> From: GardenPT@aol.com Subject: Recommended new reference (Off topic) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:39:47 EDT Re: "Ornamental Plants of Russia and Surrounding States" Can you give us the ISBN, please? From merrill@gamblegarden.org Wed Jul 6 10:49:50 2005 Message-Id: <20050706144950.25EC732C00D@smtpauth00.csee.siteprotect.com> From: "Merrill Jensen" Subject: Recommended new reference (Off topic) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 07:51:43 -0700 Thanks for the information on this. I'll certainly search for it. This was my major geographical focus while in Oregon and Idaho... Warm enough for you this year? Merrill in Palo Alto with A.M. fog -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Boyce Tankersley Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 7:23 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Recommended new reference (Off topic) Dear List: Received yesterday a long awaited reference entitled "Ornamental Plants of Russia and Surrounding States" by Dr. Tatyana Shulkina of the Missouri Botanical Garden, formerly of the Komarov Institute in St. Petersburg, Russia. Very well written with excellent photographs and a wealth of information about geophytes (as well as a number of other plant habits) of the former Soviet Union. This book reflects the cumulative knowledge gained over decades spent studying plants in their natural habitats and evaluating their ability to grow under garden conditions at one of the worlds finest botanic gardens (Komarov). A 'must read' for anyone interested in growing geophytes from eastern Europe, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Tien Shan, Siberia, the Russian Far East. An amazing breadth and depth of knowledge condensed into this single volume. In appreciation for my encouragement for the publication of this book I received a complimentary copy. I am not sure where it is can be purchased, but is is well worth searching out. Boyce Tankersley Manager of Living Plant Documentation Chicago Botanic Garden 1000 Lake Cook Road Glencoe, IL 60022 btankers@chicagobotanic.org _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From btankers@cbgnt.chicagobotanic.org Wed Jul 6 10:48:41 2005 Message-Id: <52857FDB394B7E45BA1F2E60D7313E2A71C695@cbgmail.chicagobotanic.org> From: "Boyce Tankersley" Subject: Recommended new reference (Off topic) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:52:06 -0500 I left the book on the reading table at home. I just received an email from Tatyana that indicated the book was for sale at the MBGPress (webpage and Gift Shop). Some books are also available through IBC in Vienna. Boyce Tankersley btankers@chicagobotanic.org -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of GardenPT@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 9:40 AM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [pbs] Recommended new reference (Off topic) Re: "Ornamental Plants of Russia and Surrounding States" Can you give us the ISBN, please? _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From crinum@libero.it Wed Jul 6 10:52:20 2005 Message-Id: From: "crinum@libero.it" Subject: Recommended new reference (Off topic) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:52:17 +0200 Look at this: http://www.mbgpress.org/index.php?task=id&id=00502 Alberto Italy ---------- Initial Header ----------- From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org To : "Pacific Bulb Society" pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Cc : Date : Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:23:21 -0500 Subject : [pbs] Recommended new reference (Off topic) > Dear List: > > Received yesterday a long awaited reference entitled "Ornamental Plants of Russia and Surrounding States" by Dr. Tatyana Shulkina of the Missouri Botanical Garden, formerly of the Komarov Institute in St. Petersburg, Russia. > > Very well written with excellent photographs and a wealth of information about geophytes (as well as a number of other plant habits) of the former Soviet Union. > > This book reflects the cumulative knowledge gained over decades spent studying plants in their natural habitats and evaluating their ability to grow under garden conditions at one of the worlds finest botanic gardens (Komarov). > > A 'must read' for anyone interested in growing geophytes from eastern Europe, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Tien Shan, Siberia, the Russian Far East. An amazing breadth and depth of knowledge condensed into this single volume. > > In appreciation for my encouragement for the publication of this book I received a complimentary copy. I am not sure where it is can be purchased, but is is well worth searching out. > > Boyce Tankersley > Manager of Living Plant Documentation > Chicago Botanic Garden > 1000 Lake Cook Road > Glencoe, IL 60022 > btankers@chicagobotanic.org > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > Alberto Grossi Italy ____________________________________________________________ Navighi a 4 MEGA e i primi 3 mesi sono GRATIS. Scegli Libero Adsl Flat senza limiti su http://www.libero.it From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Wed Jul 6 12:12:06 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050706181039.01f05e10@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Keep the Pacific Bulb Society BX Going!! Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 18:11:45 +0200 At 01:48 06-07-2005, Alberto Castillo wrote: >>From: Carol Jensen >>Reply-To: Pacific Bulb Society >>To: Pacific Bulb Society ,"'Pacific Bulb Society'" >> >>Subject: Re: [pbs] Keep the Pacific Bulb Society BX Going!! >>Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:00:50 +0200 >> >Hi Carol: > Are they amaryllis or hippeastrums? Either case, they are ideal >plants to learn how to grow amaryllids from seed for newcomers. There will >be lots of people interested in them. Anything that can be a weed for some >of us can be a welcome addition to others' collections. >All the best > >Alberto Fine. Around New Years and from then on, I can have both sidebulbs and seeds. They are sold as amaryllis. Carol From xerics@cox.net Wed Jul 6 18:09:49 2005 Message-Id: <000901c58277$6c5695a0$63cb6f44@richard> From: "Richard" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:09:47 -0700 I have placed a couple of photos of my "Ledebouria" on the mystery page. Thanks to those people who took the time to offer help. Richard From pekasky@earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 18:14:15 2005 Message-Id: <6880845.1120688055373.JavaMail.root@wamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Are the leaves of this plant extremely succulent? If so, it's an unknown Ledebouria. I have had conversations with two people here in Southern California about it, Tom Glavich and Fred Baker, and neither one knows where it came from or what exactly it is. However, it has been known to exist for a good number of years. Tom is on this list. If you're there, Tom, what do you remember about this bulb? Marilyn -----Original Message----- From: Richard Sent: Jul 6, 2005 6:09 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] New mystery bulb I have placed a couple of photos of my "Ledebouria" on the mystery page. Thanks to those people who took the time to offer help. Richard _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From boutin@goldrush.com Wed Jul 6 18:40:00 2005 Message-Id: <001c01c5827b$b8e01a50$563d7143@homecomputer> From: "boutin" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:40:32 -0700 It looks like what was Drimiopsis kirkii and recently transferred to Ledebouria ??, but not L. kirkii, which is a different plant named earlier. Fred Boutin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marilyn Pekasky" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > Are the leaves of this plant extremely succulent? If so, it's an unknown Ledebouria. I have had conversations with two people here in Southern California about it, Tom Glavich and Fred Baker, and neither one knows where it came from or what exactly it is. However, it has been known to exist for a good number of years. Tom is on this list. If you're there, Tom, what do you remember about this bulb? > > Marilyn > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard > Sent: Jul 6, 2005 6:09 PM > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Subject: [pbs] New mystery bulb > > I have placed a couple of photos of my "Ledebouria" on the mystery page. > Thanks to those people who took the time to offer help. > > Richard > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From xerics@cox.net Wed Jul 6 18:44:33 2005 Message-Id: <001301c5827c$408b8c50$63cb6f44@richard> From: "Richard" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:44:17 -0700 Yes, the leaves are very succulent but the flower doesn't look like any Ledebouria that I know. Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > Are the leaves of this plant extremely succulent? If so, it's an unknown > Ledebouria. I have had conversations with two people here in Southern > California about it, Tom Glavich and Fred Baker, and neither one knows > where it came from or what exactly it is. However, it has been known to > exist for a good number of years. Tom is on this list. If you're there, > Tom, what do you remember about this bulb? From boutin@goldrush.com Wed Jul 6 19:44:03 2005 Message-Id: <005101c58284$b7ba9700$563d7143@homecomputer> From: "boutin" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:44:57 -0700 Kent, The flowers are Drimiopsis like, but Drimiopsis has recently been submerged into Ledebouria by J. C. Manning and Goldblatt. The common Drimiopsis maculata is now Ledebouria petiolata J. C. Manning & Goldblatt, no relation to S. Venter's unpublished L. petiolata which is related to L. rupestris. I don't recall what Manning and Goldblatt renamed Drimiopsis kirkii when they transferred it to Ledebouria. It could not be called L. kirkii because that combination already existed. Interestingly Baker named a Scilla kirkii (which in 1995-96 Stedge and Thulin transferred to Ledebouria kirkii) and Baker also named a different plant Drimiopsis kirkii, which when transferred to Ledebouria in 2004 by Manning and Goldblatt needed a new specific name. Fred Boutin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "Marilyn Pekasky" ; "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > Yes, the leaves are very succulent but the flower doesn't look like any > Ledebouria that I know. > > Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > > > > Are the leaves of this plant extremely succulent? If so, it's an unknown > > Ledebouria. I have had conversations with two people here in Southern > > California about it, Tom Glavich and Fred Baker, and neither one knows > > where it came from or what exactly it is. However, it has been known to > > exist for a good number of years. Tom is on this list. If you're there, > > Tom, what do you remember about this bulb? > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From pekasky@earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 19:54:14 2005 Message-Id: <2469162.1120694054180.JavaMail.root@wamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:54:13 -0400 (EDT) From pekasky@earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 19:57:52 2005 Message-Id: <23780606.1120694271726.JavaMail.root@wamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:57:51 -0400 (EDT) Fred: In what publication did Manning and Goldblatt make these changes? I like to keep up-to-date on these things if I can. Thanks for any info. By the way: My previous email referring to "Fred Baker" was meant to say "Bill Baker." Marilyn Pekasky -----Original Message----- From: boutin Sent: Jul 6, 2005 7:44 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb Kent, The flowers are Drimiopsis like, but Drimiopsis has recently been submerged into Ledebouria by J. C. Manning and Goldblatt. The common Drimiopsis maculata is now Ledebouria petiolata J. C. Manning & Goldblatt, no relation to S. Venter's unpublished L. petiolata which is related to L. rupestris. I don't recall what Manning and Goldblatt renamed Drimiopsis kirkii when they transferred it to Ledebouria. It could not be called L. kirkii because that combination already existed. Interestingly Baker named a Scilla kirkii (which in 1995-96 Stedge and Thulin transferred to Ledebouria kirkii) and Baker also named a different plant Drimiopsis kirkii, which when transferred to Ledebouria in 2004 by Manning and Goldblatt needed a new specific name. Fred Boutin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "Marilyn Pekasky" ; "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > Yes, the leaves are very succulent but the flower doesn't look like any > Ledebouria that I know. > > Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > > > > Are the leaves of this plant extremely succulent? If so, it's an unknown > > Ledebouria. I have had conversations with two people here in Southern > > California about it, Tom Glavich and Fred Baker, and neither one knows > > where it came from or what exactly it is. However, it has been known to > > exist for a good number of years. Tom is on this list. If you're there, > > Tom, what do you remember about this bulb? > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From pekasky@earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 19:59:13 2005 Message-Id: <14377748.1120694352844.JavaMail.root@wamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: Bad Post - Ignore Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:59:12 -0400 (EDT) The below post was sent in the wrong format. Please ignore - I've reposted using the correct format. Marilyn Pekasky -----Original Message----- From: Marilyn Pekasky Sent: Jul 6, 2005 7:54 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Cc: msittner@mcn.org Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From boutin@goldrush.com Wed Jul 6 20:02:01 2005 Message-Id: <006301c58287$3cab9200$563d7143@homecomputer> From: "boutin" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:02:59 -0700 Drimiopsis kirkii is now Ledebouria botryoides J.C. Manning &Goldblatt Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "boutin" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > Kent, > > The flowers are Drimiopsis like, but Drimiopsis has recently been submerged > into Ledebouria by J. C. Manning and Goldblatt. The common Drimiopsis > maculata is now Ledebouria petiolata J. C. Manning & Goldblatt, no relation > to S. Venter's unpublished L. petiolata which is related to L. rupestris. > > I don't recall what Manning and Goldblatt renamed Drimiopsis kirkii when > they transferred it to Ledebouria. It could not be called L. kirkii because > that combination already existed. Interestingly Baker named a Scilla kirkii > (which in 1995-96 Stedge and Thulin transferred to Ledebouria kirkii) and > Baker also named a different plant Drimiopsis kirkii, which when transferred > to Ledebouria in 2004 by Manning and Goldblatt needed a new specific name. > > Fred Boutin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard" > To: "Marilyn Pekasky" ; "Pacific Bulb Society" > > Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > > > > Yes, the leaves are very succulent but the flower doesn't look like any > > Ledebouria that I know. > > > > Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > > > > > > > Are the leaves of this plant extremely succulent? If so, it's an > unknown > > > Ledebouria. I have had conversations with two people here in Southern > > > California about it, Tom Glavich and Fred Baker, and neither one knows > > > where it came from or what exactly it is. However, it has been known to > > > exist for a good number of years. Tom is on this list. If you're > there, > > > Tom, what do you remember about this bulb? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From boutin@goldrush.com Wed Jul 6 20:11:17 2005 Message-Id: <007301c58288$887db4f0$563d7143@homecomputer> From: "boutin" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:12:15 -0700 Marilyn, Manning and Goldblatt's revision is "A revised generic synopsis of Hyacinthaceae in sub-Saharan Africa based on molecular evidence, including new combinations,..." in Edinburgh Journal Botany, 60: 533-568. 2004. I guessed that it was Bill Baker. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marilyn Pekasky" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > Fred: > > In what publication did Manning and Goldblatt make these changes? I like to keep up-to-date on these things if I can. Thanks for any info. By the way: My previous email referring to "Fred Baker" was meant to say "Bill Baker." > > Marilyn Pekasky > > From boutin@goldrush.com Wed Jul 6 20:44:40 2005 Message-Id: <008801c5828d$390585b0$563d7143@homecomputer> From: "boutin" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:45:49 -0700 Ledebouria botryoides is based on Drimiopsis botryoides which was also named by Baker, so it is Ledebouria botryoides (Baker) J.C. Manning & Goldblatt. Drimiopsis botryoides and D. kirkii ,both erected by Baker as separate species, are now merged into one species and the genus Ledebouria. Baker published both D. botryoides and D. kirkii in 1874 in two separate publications, and it is not clear to me which species was published first. But since the combination L. kirkii (Baker) Stedge & Thulin predated Manning and Goldblatt's revision then L. botryoides becomes the clear choice if you agree that D. botryoides and D. kirkii are one species. Fred From boutin@goldrush.com Wed Jul 6 21:28:46 2005 Message-Id: <00aa01c58293$41cc0420$563d7143@homecomputer> From: "boutin" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:29:01 -0700 For further comments on Manning and Goldblatt's lumping together of genera and species based on molecular evidence I suggest referring back to Harold Koopowitz's comments in January of this year: [pbs] Scilla and taxonomic changes. Personally I feel that it is good to know that Drimiopsis is very close to Ledebouria based on molecular evidence, but should Drimiopsis be merged into Ledebouria, ignoring what seem to be visually very different flower forms. Should molecular evidence trump floral form? Fred > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From jglatt@ptd.net Thu Jul 7 09:46:53 2005 Message-Id: <42CD325B.6090809@ptd.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: orientation Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:47:07 -0400 I have two Arisaema fargesii flowering with their "backs" turned to the path they are near. Arisaema respond well to digging while in flower, so I could lift, turn 180 degrees, and pop them back into the same location. Or, I could try moving them across the path. This is something that has occasionally intrigued me: do arisaema present the same orientation from year to year? In other words, if I spin them 180 degrees will they flower as I wish next year, or will they stubbornly refuse to display their funny faces. What determines why their flowers face the way that they do? With tulips I know that the first leaf appears on the stem on the flatter side of the bulb. But that has nothing to do with the flower. Any observations, comments, suggestions? Judy in summertime New Jersey. Gray and rainy today, which means it may not reach steam bath conditions as it often does when the sun shines. From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Thu Jul 7 10:04:56 2005 Message-Id: <000a01c582fc$dbe4c6a0$f3de8156@2CVEVE1> From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: orientation Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:04:57 +0100 Judy In a friends garden there are 2 flowers of arisaema candidissima from one "clump". The larger faces the wall, away from the lawn, the much smaller flower faces the lawn. If they come from still linked tubers then that may be influencing the direction. I have a range of sizes of A. fargesii in leaf, although only 1 flower, and it is the different leaf shapes that appeal to me, from dinner plate sized entire leaves to divided leaves with separate lobes either side of the stem, and some in between. Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8, but cool and raining today. > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On > Behalf Of Judy Glattstein > Sent: 07 July 2005 14:47 > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: [pbs] orientation > > I have two Arisaema fargesii flowering with their "backs" turned to the > path they are near. Arisaema respond well to digging while in flower, so > I could lift, turn 180 degrees, and pop them back into the same > location. Or, I could try moving them across the path. > > This is something that has occasionally intrigued me: do arisaema > present the same orientation from year to year? In other words, if I > spin them 180 degrees will they flower as I wish next year, or will they > stubbornly refuse to display their funny faces. What determines why > their flowers face the way that they do? With tulips I know that the > first leaf appears on the stem on the flatter side of the bulb. But that > has nothing to do with the flower. > > Any observations, comments, suggestions? > > Judy in summertime New Jersey. Gray and rainy today, which means it may > not reach steam bath conditions as it often does when the sun shines. > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jglatt@ptd.net Thu Jul 7 11:44:44 2005 Message-Id: <42CD4DFA.9000808@ptd.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: Arisaema fargesii Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:44:58 -0400 In their book "The Genus Arisaema" and writing about section Franchetiana the Gusmans note that "The eophyll is a simple blade and further, leaves remain simple for many years, first developing some kind of lobes, often just outlined, eventually becoming fully separated as the tuber matures." They also note that the leaflets of A. franchetianum (they are referring to mature plants) "are completely separated while those of A. fargesii are often only tripartite, divided only in the upper part." So Brian, since your plants display such a variation in leaf form, are the tubers in your colony of A. fargesii of varying ages? Judy, in still overcast, still cooler, New Jersey From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Thu Jul 7 12:06:16 2005 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Mailed today Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:05:41 -0500 >Send donations to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA 18928, USA. > Dear Dell; Enclosed two bags of seed for the BX Crinum bulbispermum 'Jumbo' I obtained the original seed from Marcelle Sheppard a few years ago. They have grown into large hardy perennials here in Zone 5b. Plants have glaucous leaves over 6 ft long and scape to about 3 ft. I belive Ms. Sheppard named these 'Jumbo', but they are identical or close to the 'Sacremento' seed strain developed by Les Hannibal. They have wintered over here with very little protection. They make excellent garden specimens These tend to be solitary plants producing very few or no pups so must be propagated by seed which are very easy. These large seed will geminate quickly. My procedure is to press the seed into a loose soilless mixture in pots sitting in shallow water. Seeds will germinate quickly, but seedlings need some protection here their first winter. Flowers are near pure-white to deep pink/red. 1. Mixed flowered types of all colors 2. Selected red/pink, but these are open pollinated so no color assurance. Enjoy Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 7 12:27:47 2005 Message-Id: <42CD54CA.AB9FFD97@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:14:02 -0700 Dear Fred: For what it is worth, my opinion is that molecular differences should NOT trump floral form. Looking down the road, I can see problems if molecular differences rule. Such information is valuable, no doubt about it, but I feel such should be in a separate classification, or table or whatever, not mixed in with, and take the place of floral form. If such continues I can see difficulty in the identification of plants in the field. A new, separate classification is required, such to be used by those who can use and have need of it, but not for, or as the rule, for practical identification. Perhaps someone could make a name for him/herself by tackling this, you perhaps? Cheers, John e. Bryan boutin wrote: > > For further comments on Manning and Goldblatt's lumping together of genera > and species based on molecular evidence I suggest referring back to Harold > Koopowitz's comments in January of this year: [pbs] Scilla and taxonomic > changes. > > Personally I feel that it is good to know that Drimiopsis is very close to > Ledebouria based on molecular evidence, but should Drimiopsis be merged into > Ledebouria, ignoring what seem to be visually very different flower forms. > Should molecular evidence trump floral form? > > Fred > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From Antennaria@aol.com Thu Jul 7 13:19:00 2005 Message-Id: <8C7512F148224BC-758-4A81@mblk-d34.sysops.aol.com> From: antennaria@aol.com Subject: Ariseama flower direction Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:18:51 -0400 Judy Glattstein posed a most interesting question, and one that I wondered about myself. I do think that Ariseama must have, in general, a predilection to bloom facing a certain direction, based on the tuber's physical position in the soil. I only have a single-leaf non-flowering plant of A. fargesii, but my two flowering stems on A. heterophyllum always face the same direction... with their backs to a garden path and facing directly into a large Rhododendron growing next to it. On a side note, I'm still amazed about how a plant that first emerged on June 7th this year, can now be over 6' tall (2 meters) to the top of the upturned spadix. It emerges and grows so fast (just 3 weeks to reach 6') that it would almost be possible to watch it grow in real time! It has repeated this amazing growing feat reliably for the past 5 years. Arisaema triphyllum blooms generally always face the same direction too, and so does my A. kishidae and tashiroi, now that I think about it. However, on a single but impressive plant of A. ringens, the muscular fist-like spathe faced in a direction turned 90 degrees from the direction it faced last year. From alongside a garden path with limited view vantage points from which to snap a photo, I noticed that it turned this year making it more difficult to photograph! Last year the flower was in perfect profile, while this year it turned it's back on the garden path. It would be interesting to learn if there is some way of determining the direction of the flower when looking at the tuber shape, so one could determine the desired rotation when planting them. Mark McDonough Pepperell, Massachusetts, United States "New England", near New Hampshire USDA Zone 5 ======================================= antennaria@aol.com website: http://www.PlantBuzz.com alliums, bulbs, penstemons, hardy hibiscus, western american alpines, iris, plants of all types! From voltaire@islandnet.com Thu Jul 7 13:36:08 2005 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Ariseama flower direction Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:36:04 -0700 I have a clump of A.jacquemontii in bloom right now. From the sidewalk, the four blooms are facing 1 o'clock, 5 o'clock, and two at 9 o'clock. This seems a good way to ensure pollination, having them facing outwards around the clump. -- Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8 cool mediterranean climate (dry summer, rainy winter - 68 cm annually) sandy soil From totototo@pacificcoast.net Thu Jul 7 13:30:51 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:43:12 -0700 On 6 Jul 05 at 18:29, boutin wrote: > ...Should molecular evidence trump floral form? Give that man a prize for enunciating the $64,000 question. The whole point of taxonomy is to identify plants. If you can't make the identification without carrying DNA analysis equipment in your backpack, somehow it seems rather counterproductive. At issue is the opinion of some (many?) botanists that the taxonomic hierarchy should match the evolutionary hierarchy. However, this position leads to stupid anomalies when both a parent (ancestral) species and one of it's children (descendant species) are still with us, no matter how distinctive they may be. The thing to keep in mind is that taxonomic naming is *opinion*, that as long as a name was validly published, you are free to reject later shufflings and keep on using it. In this case, it sounds like it might not be a bad idea to keep using drimiopsis as well as ledebouria, with footnotes reminding the unwary that *some* botanists think the one should be submerged into the other. I wonder if it wouldn't be a more useful strategy in cases like this to leave the establish genera alone and erect a "super-genus." -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Thu Jul 7 15:03:21 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050707210210.01e9bf30@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: orientation Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:03:03 +0200 At 15:47 07-07-2005, Judy Glattstein wrote: >I have two Arisaema fargesii flowering with their "backs" turned to the >path they are near. Arisaema respond well to digging while in flower, so >I could lift, turn 180 degrees, and pop them back into the same >location. Or, I could try moving them across the path. > >This is something that has occasionally intrigued me: do arisaema >present the same orientation from year to year? In other words, if I >spin them 180 degrees will they flower as I wish next year, or will they >stubbornly refuse to display their funny faces. What determines why >their flowers face the way that they do? With tulips I know that the >first leaf appears on the stem on the flatter side of the bulb. But that >has nothing to do with the flower. > >Any observations, comments, suggestions? > >Judy in summertime New Jersey. Gray and rainy today, which means it may >not reach steam bath conditions as it often does when the sun shines. >_______________________________________________ Well, I would guess they are turning toward the sun, even though something might be in the way. Plants always know where the sun is! Carol From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 7 16:31:30 2005 Message-Id: <42CD8DE8.F202087B@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: orientation Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:17:44 -0700 Judy wrote, any comments, suggestions etc. Dear All: The question of orientation is quite fascinating. Anyone have any ideas why certain climbers twine in a clockwise direction while others twine in the opposite direction? Cheers, John E. Bryan > > From dells@voicenet.com Thu Jul 7 16:17:54 2005 Message-Id: <20050707201754.8D7E24C006@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Mailed today Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:17:50 -0400 Thank you, Jim. Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Thu Jul 7 16:44:36 2005 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:44:34 -0700 On Jul 7, 2005, at 10:43 AM, Rodger Whitlock wrote: > > I wonder if it wouldn't be a more useful strategy in cases like > this to leave the establish genera alone and erect a > "super-genus." This is precisely what I have suggested once or twice before. This way we would know that two genera are closely related--for possible breeding purposes or behavioral/cultivational similarities or whatever--and yet we would still be able to differentiate between two (or more) kinds of flowering plants (as gardeners or horticulturists). We could then keep referring to various Ledebourias as well as various Drimiopsises in our collections, and similarly to Polyxenas and Lachenalias, or to Galaxias, Gynandririses, Homerias, and Moraeas. (And Mary Sue could then accurately leave these genus names as genus names in the Genera table on the wiki!) :-) --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 From jimmckenney@starpower.net Thu Jul 7 17:57:09 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1lhgfg@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:57:07 -0400 Roger, I share your apparent sense of frustration over the instability of botanical names. But I don't respond to this the way you do. Speaking very broadly, natural classifications are based on purported relationships; artificial classifications are based on something else, typically some superficial aspect of appearance. There are important roles for both, but it's a big mistake to conflate them. There is nothing wrong with using artificial classifications: people who stage flower shows do it all the time. Some of the great botanical works of the recent past used artificial classifications (Engler's great Pflanzenreich is an example if I'm not mistaken; I'm taking that from memory and maybe I don't have the name right). The classifications for imperfect fungi are artificial - at least until the sexual forms are discovered. Roger, it seems that you want an artificial classification which is based on relationship. That does not make sense. You said: " The whole point of taxonomy is to identify plants. If you can't make the identification without carrying DNA analysis equipment in your backpack, somehow it seems rather counterproductive." Some would counter that if you have not taken into account all of the evidence, including DNA analysis, then you have not really identified "the plant". The reduction ad absurdum on that one might run something like this (in terms of progressively less refined technologies): if you can't make the identification without analyzing the DNA, if you can't make the identification without knowing the chromosome count, if you can't make the identification without a microscope, if you can't make the identification without reading a key, if you can't make the identification without seeing or tasting the plant... Also, I suspect that many will take exception to your assertion that the "whole" point of taxonomy is identification. Identification is certainly an important part, but is it the whole thing? You also said: " However, this position leads to stupid anomalies when both a parent (ancestral) species and one of it's children (descendant species) are still with us, no matter how distinctive they may be." Roger, can you cite an example of that? One final comment: this is an old issue. We are not the first generation to deal with the sometimes disparate goals of formal botany on the one hand and, on the other hand, the purely practical need to be able to name things in such a way that repeated iterations of the question "what is that" evoke the same answer. There are solutions which have been in use for centuries. The simplest one is to add the word auctorum (or hortorum, mercatorum or some similar term) to the botanical name. This indicates that the botanical name is being used not in its proper botanical sense but in the sense of, respectively, authors, gardens, or merchants. Thus, Drimiopsis kirkii hortorum until you know better. Once you know better, you can call it Ledebouria botryoides J.C. Manning & Goldblatt. And now you know why it is important to attach the author's name (or in this case, authors' names) to plant names. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I'm surrounded by bulb catalogs (and waiting for Jane's list) and determined to be a firm amicus mercatorum. From janemcgary@earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 18:30:38 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050707151611.01092450@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Fritillaria affinis at Point Reyes Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:25:45 -0700 A friend in the UK, David King, just phoned me to direct my attention to a short article in the new issue of "The Alpine Gardener," the journal of the AGS. The author is Frank Tindall and the subject is Fritillaria affinis 'Wayne Roderick' and F. affinis var. tristulis. Both are triploid forms found in a population at Point Reyes, California. The two photos with the article show var. tristulis and another plant captioned as 'Wayne Roderick', but both David and I think the latter is not the plant we grow as 'WR'. David got his plant from Wayne directly, and I got mine from a friend who got it from Wayne. Wayne told both of us that tristulis is a shorter-growing plant than 'WR'. The plant in the AGS photo looks like a substantial, typical F. affinis var. affinis of the medium green type, whereas we think of 'WR' as having big, blocky, "square-shouldered" flowers and longer tepals than "tristulis". David asked me if I knew the history of how these two sterile triploid clones were named. I don't, so I'm asking all of you, trusting that someone knows the full story. If you do, please comment? The Jepson Manual keeps var. tristulis as a valid name, distinguishing it by its more numerous scales (also a characteristic of 'WR') and its "scarcely mottled" flowers. Thanks, Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From xerics@cox.net Thu Jul 7 18:30:33 2005 Message-Id: <001501c58343$7bf74fa0$63cb6f44@richard> From: "Richard" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:30:28 -0700 My personal feeling is that alleles and genes be chosen so that they reflect some morphology. Otherwise, the whole taxonomic kingdom falls into utter confusion. RW ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bryan" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] New mystery bulb > Dear Fred: > > For what it is worth, my opinion is that molecular differences should > NOT trump floral form. Looking down the road, I can see problems if > molecular differences rule. Such information is valuable, no doubt about > it, but I feel such should be in a separate classification, or table or > whatever, not mixed in with, and take the place of floral form. If such > continues I can see difficulty in the identification of plants in the > field. A new, separate classification is required, such to be used by > those who can use and have need of it, but not for, or as the rule, for > practical identification. Perhaps someone could make a name for > him/herself by tackling this, you perhaps? Cheers, John e. Bryan > > boutin wrote: >> >> For further comments on Manning and Goldblatt's lumping together of >> genera >> and species based on molecular evidence I suggest referring back to >> Harold >> Koopowitz's comments in January of this year: [pbs] Scilla and taxonomic >> changes. >> >> Personally I feel that it is good to know that Drimiopsis is very close >> to >> Ledebouria based on molecular evidence, but should Drimiopsis be merged >> into >> Ledebouria, ignoring what seem to be visually very different flower >> forms. >> Should molecular evidence trump floral form? >> >> Fred >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > pbs mailing list >> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 7 19:30:05 2005 Message-Id: <42CDB7C3.B2266CA0@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: Identification Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:16:19 -0700 Dear Richard: With interest I read your comment, that alleles and genes be chosen so that they reflect some morphology. I would like to answer-comment on your point. My understanding of 'morphology' is the study of form, particularly external structure. For years it seems gardeners, horticulturists have been identifying plants by their external structure. A form in which a gene may appear and while 'allele' give rise to different expressions of a character, it has been the external structure (morphology), as seen by the observer, that has been used to identify a plant. In my opinion, such should continue, or else we will be in a state of confusion. The DNA of plants and the relationships, presently unknown without such studies, is of importance, one might ask to whom? Breeders, botanists, those who study genetics etc.. Certainly not the general public, gardeners or horticulturists as they strive to identify plants by their external structure (morphology). Such people (as a general rule) would, I suspect, be thrown into confusion. Such might well happen if, as an example, Drimiopsis be lumped into Ledebouria. How to take advantage of new and advanced studies is thus a good question. Such are essential for our understanding of plants, no question about that. But must such change the identification of plants by their morphology? I feel molecular differences should not trump floral and foliage form. It seems to me a new table, list or whatever it should be called, is needed to be devised. Mention was made recently about classifications used in flower shows. Such are Horticultural Classifications, which are changed almost on a regular basis. Viridiflora tulips, as an example, are now part of the horticultural classification as they have become much more popular than they were. Horticultural classifications are, in my opinion, very important, but they change according to the popularity of forms. Perhaps it is because I am getting to old to think about changes, one thing is certain, the more things change, the more they remain the same. Certainly this is true (one might add thank goodness) with the plants we love, they change not. Cheers and thanks for your comment. John E. Bryan From msittner@mcn.org Thu Jul 7 23:19:46 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050707192548.029fc3e0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Names on the wiki Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:17:19 -0700 Dear All, Although we try to stay on topic and do pretty well most of the time, I do want to extend my sympathy to all our UK members about the horrible events that occurred earlier in the day. The Internet creates global communities where you can come together over shared interests and become friends. I am sure that my concern is shared by many. It feels strange to go on to the next subject when that is on my mind without at least mentioning it. I am sure that we will continue to talk about the changing of names that seems to be occurring so fast that it is difficult to keep up with it. And I doubt that we will always agree. I share John Bryan's wishes that there will be a way to identify a plant by looking at it so I will know what it is. Many of us have had the experience of growing a plant from seed that we find out we already have because it was going by a different name than we expected and that is going to happen more and more I expect. Alberto Castillo suggested early on that we include the name of the person who named the plant on the wiki. I remember thinking that would take more time than I had to add that information. I have come to understand better why it might be a good idea, but since most of us gardeners do not associate our plant's names with the person who named that plant I expect that information wouldn't have much meaning except to those who have studied the particular plant in detail. When I go to IPNI and see the same plant name with a different names after it, I have no clue how those two plants are different and if I grow that plant which person's name to associate with my plant. And I suspect I am not alone. So the suggestion that we can call a plant what its original name was as long as we append the name of the person who named it doesn't really solve the problem of helping us associate a certain plant with a certain name. I've been advised that it is dangerous to throw a question like the next one to the list, but I am interested in learning what those of you who use the wiki find most helpful in dealing with the name changes. Susan, Arnold, and I will decide, but it is always good to have input to help make decisions. When Galaxia, Homeria, Gynandriris, etc. were lumped into Moraea, we called them Moraea and included the synonyms with their old names, but kept them segregated on the subgroup pages. With Leucojum and Acis we have listed the plant under the old name and the new name on both wiki pages and that insures the plant will be found either place but is very time consuming for us. Now that Polyxena has been lumped into Lachenalia, Albuca into Ornithogalum, etc. so need to decide whether to have information and images on one page or two. If you are looking for a specific plant and use the text search you'll find it no matter where we put it, but I don't know how many people look for a plant that way and how many people go straight to the genus page. If you go to the genus page and a plant has been renamed and is not there you might not realize it could be found some place else. This happened with Sheila Burrow's picture of Ismene xfestalis, syn. Hymenocallis xfestalis Our wiki was created to be a resource for the members of this group (and a way to share our pictures.) How would you like us to handle new names?. You can write me privately if you don't want to share with the group. After we have input we'll talk it over between the three of us and if we don't get input, we'll decide on the basis of what makes sense to us and how much time we have to work on the wiki. As a wiki administrator I have come to dread reading about all the changes. Thanks. Mary Sue From samclan@redshift.com Thu Jul 7 23:45:00 2005 Message-Id: <42CDF7B8.6060506@redshift.com> From: Shirley Meneice Subject: orientation Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:49:12 -0700 Great question Judy. I once believed it all had to do with the orientation toward their light source. I no longer believe that. I'll start observing a bit more carefully and report what I notice. Shirley Meneice Judy Glattstein wrote: >I have two Arisaema fargesii flowering with their "backs" turned to the >path they are near. Arisaema respond well to digging while in flower, so >I could lift, turn 180 degrees, and pop them back into the same >location. Or, I could try moving them across the path. > >This is something that has occasionally intrigued me: do arisaema >present the same orientation from year to year? In other words, if I >spin them 180 degrees will they flower as I wish next year, or will they >stubbornly refuse to display their funny faces. What determines why >their flowers face the way that they do? With tulips I know that the >first leaf appears on the stem on the flatter side of the bulb. But that >has nothing to do with the flower. > >Any observations, comments, suggestions? > >Judy in summertime New Jersey. Gray and rainy today, which means it may >not reach steam bath conditions as it often does when the sun shines. >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/05 From voltaire@islandnet.com Thu Jul 7 23:56:37 2005 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Names on the wiki Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:56:34 -0700 To minimize your work, I suggest one sentence per genus - something like this: Some former members of this genus are now considered to be G____ or H____. or If you don't find a species you are looking for, check on the G_____ page. Diane Whitehead From jglatt@ptd.net Fri Jul 8 00:24:33 2005 Message-Id: <42CDFFFD.1000005@ptd.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: arisaema orientation Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 00:24:29 -0400 Interesting point - could the arisaema be facing towards the sunnier direction. The Arisaema fargesii are facing towards a wooded slope. They'd do better working on their tan if they turned 180 degrees. (There's a picture on my web site in my July diary entry www.bellewood-gardens.com if you want to take a look at the plants.) The A. triphyllum that are native on the site face every which way. So I don't think sunlight is the determining factor. Perhaps I'll twiddle one of the A. fargesii (lift, spin, replant) and see what happens next year. Judy in NJ where the National Weather Service is predicting 100% chance of rain (don't remember ever seeing that before) tonight / tomorrow, and I've heard rumors of 3 to 6 inches of rain. From bonaventure@optonline.net Fri Jul 8 00:29:09 2005 Message-Id: <625912e625dfc5.625dfc5625912e@optonline.net> From: bonaventure@optonline.net Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 30, Issue 7 Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 00:27:59 -0400 Judy, all I can think of is that the hood of the spathe acts sort of as a "trap" for the pollenator. It presents translucent surfaces so that perhaps the insect flying up to the light hits the inside of the spathe and falls back in. These glowing windows or stripes can really be seen well in a backlit bloom of Arisaema costatum, giving a "stained-glass window" effect. Perhaps the emerging bloom senses brighter light coming from the path and turns the back of the spathe, the whole bloom therefore, towards the brighter area and away from the human veiwer. Or it could just be perverse spite... Bonaventure Magrys in muggy superhumid central New Jersey > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:47:07 -0400 > From: Judy Glattstein > Subject: [pbs] orientation > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <42CD325B.6090809@ptd.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I have two Arisaema fargesii flowering with their "backs" turned > to the > path they are near. Arisaema respond well to digging while in > flower, so > I could lift, turn 180 degrees, and pop them back into the same > location. Or, I could try moving them across the path. > > This is something that has occasionally intrigued me: do arisaema > present the same orientation from year to year? In other words, if > I > spin them 180 degrees will they flower as I wish next year, or > will they > stubbornly refuse to display their funny faces. What determines > why > their flowers face the way that they do? With tulips I know that > the > first leaf appears on the stem on the flatter side of the bulb. > But that > has nothing to do with the flower. > > Any observations, comments, suggestions? > > Judy in summertime New Jersey. Gray and rainy today, which means > it may > not reach steam bath conditions as it often does when the sun shines. > From doji@hawaii.rr.com Fri Jul 8 01:04:35 2005 Message-Id: <001001c5837a$851b6120$6401a8c0@gary> From: "Gary" Subject: Identification Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 19:04:28 -1000 Dear all, A brief observation on the question of identification. The names of plants and animals for that matter, are a tool of convenience for the user in order to communicate with others accurately as to what is being discussed. The level of accuracy can vary with the conversant's needs. I once new a man of limited formal education that described all animals as either critters or varmints. Critters were either good or benign, and varmints were "no dern good at all". This is a perfectly good system for identification suited to the user, but had limited usage outside of his immediate group of like thinkers. We need not classify plants that simply - all the red flowers lumped together- but need to use a lexicon that allows us to know what the other person is thinking about and describing. If we are unclear, others can ask for more detailed (and presumably more accurate) descriptions. The other extreme will always be with us as illustrated by a knowledgeable correspondent on another plant group who recently witnessed workers placing the same label on many different fern genera and species even after it was pointed out to the manager that this was in error. Dollars rule. Gary in Hilo, HI where I am constantly amused by the pronunciation of the Latinized binomials by those who's Latin teachers were from different countries or eras. From doji@hawaii.rr.com Fri Jul 8 01:17:52 2005 Message-Id: <001701c5837c$60101fe0$6401a8c0@gary> From: "Gary" Subject: Orientation Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 19:17:45 -1000 Dear all, In the description of plants that twine or twist in their upward growth, I think I once knew, but have forgotten, how are they described? The plants view from the ground up? Or are view looking down? And roots or rhizomes that tend to wander in circles, from the ground down? Or what? Are these plants subject to the Coreolis Effect? Do they change direction when grown in a different hemisphere? Sharks tend to swim clockwise in confinement in the northern hemisphere, but the same species of shark swims counterclockwise (anticlockwise for our British English speakers) in confinement in the southern hemisphere. And do they climb either way on the equator? I have a climbing Aroid that on the mainland (San Francisco, Calif.) grew more or less clockwise looking up, but goes straight up now that I am closer to the equator. One plant proves nothing, but it is of passing interest. Gary in Hilo, HI, going around in circles aimlessly, it sometimes seems. From leo1010@attglobal.net Fri Jul 8 02:58:37 2005 Message-Id: <42CE14D7.9060903@attglobal.net> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Don't change your labels - was New mystery bulb Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:53:27 -0600 First point If a name for a species was properly published at one time then that is a valid name for that species. Perhaps in the future after more study somebody may argue that there is a more proper name for the species. They may publish this proposed name, and if other people concur with the explanation for the new name (for the most part, other professional botanists are the only ones who matter here) people begin using the new name. But the previous name was properly given and may be used. Professional botanists working with a given portion of the plant kingdom are expected to understand the taxonomic history of their area of expertise. We hobbyists aren't. Second point Very little material in possession of us hobbyists is of value to professional botanists. We can't prove where it actually originated most of the time. If we can, we seldom take proper precautions for controlled pollination. Besides, the natural pollinator doesn't have a whole population to choose from, just our few plants, even if the pollinator occurs in our gardens or greenhouses, and unless the pollinator is native to our local area its behavior can't be assumed to be the same as it would be in the wild. Wild populations are what matter, not plants bred in captivity even if the original source material came from the wild. So don't think our efforts at cultivating species have any contribution to species preservation or taxonomy. For taxonomy and ecology, especially for species preservation, what counts is populations in the wild and habitat preservation. Third point We are hobbyists, not professional botanists. We aren't expected to keep up with name changes. Don't change your labels if they bear a properly given name and if you are sure your plant is actually what is on the label. Professional botanists are expected to know the taxonomic history of plants in their field of expertise. Leave the cutting edge to them. We don't have anything to contribute to taxonomy unless we are able to provide accurate observations on wild material (which usually will entail making proper herbarium specimens from wild material, not from our gardens.) Fourth point Recall that in the days of Linnaeus, it was believed by scientists that each species was created by God in the form in which it was encountered at the time, and that species did not change over time. A motivation for natural historians of the day in exploring terra incognita was the Biblical command to name every creature and plant upon the earth. It was thought there was a finite number of species of organisms on the Earth, some of which were extinct and represented only by fossils, and it was the duty of science to enumerate them all. The Linnean name can be thought of as a label to put on a file drawer in a super-museum containing a specimen each of all species of organism on the Earth. The concept of species was God-given and we were to figure it out. After Darwin and Wallace presented their results things became different. Nowadays evolutionary biologists and taxonomists are trying to show, with the Linnean binomial, evolutionary relationships between organisms. "Species" and "genus" and "family" are now the judgment call of a professional botanist or working group of botanists who (it is hoped) understand(s) the full range of variation of the natural population, not just the population existing dead and pressed in herbaria. In addition, we have lots more new problems: - What constitutes a species? Should the difference considered large enough between populations, to warrant cosideration that the populations constitute different species, be the same for all organisms on earth, or should this difference be allowed to vary from genus to genus (or kingdom, class, order...?) Does it take 1000 base pairs' difference to be a new species? 500? On which chromosome? Which intron? Should we use DNA coding for proteins? Ribosomes? Transcriptional regulatory DNA? Homeobox DNA? Who decides? What about post-translational peptide processing? - There are so many species on the earth, and so few people expert in any one area. So the decisions of only a few people, who don't really understand their field all that well - because the problem is so huge and they are so few - (ars longa, vida brevis etc) is accepted provisionally, with the understanding that in the future, with further study, if the organisms aren't extinct by then, we might have a fuller understanding. - DNA work is in its infancy. Many huge decisions are being based on tiny numbers of DNA base pairs chosen because they are easy to isolate, not because they are representative of the organism. The people proposing these taxonomic changes based on DNA have far too little data, in my opinion, to be proposing sweeping changes. Some have expressed the idea that those making big changes now are hoping they guess right so their names are the ones that go down in history. I heard this from one of the people proposing big changes in one particular plant family based on three introns (DNA sequences whose function is unknown) of less than 5000 base pairs chosen one intron each from nuclear, chloroplast, and mitochondrial chromomes. And these three specific introns were chosen only because they were the easiest ones to isolate in the lab. Speaking as a biologist who specializes in the biology of Homo sapiens, and who reads medical journals, the amount of DNA sequenced in the plant kingdom to propose big taxonomic changes is much smaller than the amount regularly sequenced by researchers in medicine trying to figure out genetic diseases in a single small kindred of humans. So while I anticipate DNA sequencing will be useful for taxonomic purposes as we learn more and more, I don't share the absolute certainty botanists working with it seem to have regarding their current conclusions. Fifth point The Linnean binomial was intended to bear one kind of information: it was to be the label on the curio cabinet drawer in the natural history museum for one easily-identifiable species. Mathematicians who study information storage (databases) will tell us that, for each type of data in a database, only one kind of information can be borne by each datum (this is the singular of the plural noun data.) In a smaller database it doesn't much matter if your serial number is composed to reflect not only a unique identifier, but also something else about your data. (Some people, in their home plant database, might assign numbers 0-10000 for bulbs, 10001-20000 for cacti, 20001-30000 for ferns, etc.) But for very large databases, this leads to serious problems. Each datum can bear only one kind of information. The current Linnean binomial is expected to signify many different things: it must be a unique identifier of a species; it also must reflect the evolutionary descent of that species; it must signify the intent of the botanist who proposed it; and others. So, database theory would tell us our current Linnean nomenclature is impossible to use precisely. In other words, our method of naming organisms can't work. This has been recognized by taxonomists. They are busy trying to figure out what to do next. After all, once everything is settled and agreed, there will be no need for new publications and nobody will attain tenure any more. Last point Note carefully: I am not criticizing botanists. I am pointing out that biology is an unimaginably huge field of research and we as humans are still just making tiny scratches on the surface. There may or may not be someday a final understanding of the evolutionary relationships between all organisms on earth. This may or may not be beyond our understanding. In the mean time we have to use some system of shared understanding. Conclusions As for us hobbyists, there is no point in changing labels at every whim. At least for now, a species is still whatever a competent biologist working in that field said/says it is. From this you can gather I think it would be an enormously bad idea to keep changing the Wiki to reflect whatever was last published. For one, it is impossible to do without subscribing to every publication in every language in the world; for another, who has the time? You would do us a better service by spending more time with your own plants and learning how to grow them better, and telling us. And lastly, the changes are all temporary, anyhow, until more is known and more changes proposed. So long as it is quite easy to tell apart at a glance Galaxia, Homeria, Gynandriris, Moraea, Leucojum, Acis, Polyxena, Lachenalia, Albuca, and Ornithogalum, leave them separate on the Wiki, perhaps with a comment as to what the current name might (or might not) be. In the animal kingdom the name of the first zoologist to name the species is always listed after the Linnean binomial, outside the parentheses, and the latest name changer is listed inside the parentheses. This is the reverse of the plant kingdom: the first namer is listed in the parentheses and the latest name changeer gets her/his name listed after the binomial in type big enough for her/his department chair to see. Some have observed there are far fewer name changes of animal species than plant species. Cause and effect, or chance occurrence? Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Fri Jul 8 05:56:16 2005 Message-Id: <002801c583a3$36af8e70$e05aa551@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: Mailed today Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:55:46 +0200 Hello Mr.Sherk, I've received today the seeds.Thank You. Regards, Marie-Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Mailed today > Thank you, Jim. > > Best wishes, > Dell > > Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From jglatt@ptd.net Fri Jul 8 07:20:21 2005 Message-Id: <42CE6172.2070303@ptd.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: another thought on arisaema orientation Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 07:20:18 -0400 Might there be a relationship between leaf orientation and the direction the arisaema "flower" faces? Staring at my pictures of Arisaema fargesii I noticed that for the two plants shown in the image the leaf faces away from the flower. I'm trying to recall the situation when arisaema have a pair of leaves: A. triphyllum and A. ringens for example. Does the flower face between the two, towards the lower leaf, toward the outer leaf? Cannot remember and it is still raining in a determined manner, 6/10ths in the last 6 hours. For what it is worth, when the rain stops (tomorrow?) I'll go out and take a look at the slumping flower remains on those two species. Judy From john@johnlonsdale.net Fri Jul 8 09:14:54 2005 Message-Id: <20050708131453.C17774C00B@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "John Lonsdale" Subject: New Trillium images added to Edgewood Gardens web site - cross posted to Alpine-L. Trillium-L and the PBS list Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:14:49 -0400 Hi, Whilst waiting for my new hip to cement into place I've been catching up with the thousand or so images I took this spring and yesterday added a couple of hundred new trillium images to my web site. I also took down some of the less interesting ones and completed the reorganization by species to make it easier to navigate. The new images can be found at http://tinyurl.com/8mcp9 (sessile species) and http://tinyurl.com/9tgnv (pedicellate species). Of particular interest are the Trillium discolor with red and green flares in the flower (must be sub-species at least....), the yellow cuneatum with a red flare and the lancifolium with most un-lanceolate leaves. The pictures of viride and viridescens are of plants that are correctly identified. Please let me have any comments or constructive criticisms. Thanks, J. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Fri Jul 8 11:37:08 2005 Message-Id: <000901c583d2$e5eb6fb0$fbe48156@2CVEVE1> From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: Arisaema fargesii Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:37:07 +0100 > In their book "The Genus Arisaema" and writing about section > Franchetiana the Gusmans note that "The eophyll is a simple blade and > further, leaves remain simple for many years, first developing some kind > of lobes, often just outlined, eventually becoming fully separated as > the tuber matures." They also note that the leaflets of A. franchetianum > (they are referring to mature plants) "are completely separated while > those of A. fargesii are often only tripartite, divided only in the > upper part." So Brian, since your plants display such a variation in > leaf form, are the tubers in your colony of A. fargesii of varying ages? Yes Judy My 12 or so tubers range from pea sized off-shoots to flowering sized plants. Only the actual flowering tuber has completely divided lobes, although 2 other partly lobed, and 1 still entire leaf, are in fact slightly larger in overall dimensions. Maybe the flower is taking its toll on the available nutrient levels. I find fargesii much more tolerant of pot growing than candidissima. The latter invariably rots off the main tuber and leaves me with just the off-shoots if it gets the slightest bit too damp too early. At least that is my theory. I am open to suggestions to improve my percentages with candidissima in pots. In the garden I don't have enough experience so cannot compare. A few years back there were a number of candidissima planted out and in flower at RHS Rosemoor in Devon, on a bank under an oak tree. There were few left the following year(s), unless I happened to miss them on my occasional visits. The rainfall is quite high there, but there are large numbers of other arisaema in more wooded areas within a 100yds or so. On the orientation issue, what happens when you plants them either side of a path? Do they ignore one another and pretend they are alone? :-) Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8 From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 8 12:36:53 2005 Message-Id: <42CEA86A.4E54438F@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: Identification Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 09:23:06 -0700 Dear Gary; The pronunciation may vary, but the spelling remains the same. A point to remember, Cheers, John E. Bryan Gary wrote: > > Dear all, > > A brief observation on the question of identification. The names of plants and animals for that matter, are a tool of convenience for the user in order to communicate with others accurately as to what is being discussed. The level of accuracy can vary with the conversant's needs. I once new a man of limited formal education that described all animals as either critters or varmints. Critters were either good or benign, and varmints were "no dern good at all". This is a perfectly good system for identification suited to the user, but had limited usage outside of his immediate group of like thinkers. > > We need not classify plants that simply - all the red flowers lumped together- but need to use a lexicon that allows us to know what the other person is thinking about and describing. If we are unclear, others can ask for more detailed (and presumably more accurate) descriptions. The other extreme will always be with us as illustrated by a knowledgeable correspondent on another plant group who recently witnessed workers placing the same label on many different fern genera and species even after it was pointed out to the manager that this was in error. Dollars rule. > > Gary in Hilo, HI where I am constantly amused by the pronunciation of the Latinized binomials by those who's Latin teachers were from different countries or eras. > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From btankers@cbgnt.chicagobotanic.org Fri Jul 8 12:50:49 2005 Message-Id: <52857FDB394B7E45BA1F2E60D7313E2A0182BDA0@cbgmail.chicagobotanic.org> From: "Boyce Tankersley" Subject: Don't change your labels - was New mystery bulb Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:54:15 -0500 Hi All: I've been reading this thread with some interest while trying to get the office in order prior to vacation. While I absolutely agree with Leo's conclusion, I disagree with his opinion of the importance of plant collections in possession of individuals as they relate to scientific value. I work in a botanic garden that is in the process of collecting significant plant collections of 19 pre-selected genera. Some of these collections (some day) will be nationally significant, others will be developed to a lesser extent and become regional resources. The sad fact is that botanic gardens have very limited resources devoted to collecting plants directly from the wild. Beyond the Convention on Biological Diversity, CITES, and other national and international protocols which regulate the movement of plants, it is a money issue. How then do we amass these significant collections? In some cases we can obtain taxa from the collections of other botanic gardens and arboreta. But I must pose the question - to what end? If they intend to deaccession the plants then our accepting them makes sense. Given limited resources however, does it really make sense to have the same germplasm conserved in many institutions when much of the genetics of the wild populations are not conserved? Some vendors have very good collection data, and of course we will obtain plants from them whenever possible - provided they agree to share the collection data - a significant number do not want to share. Private collections that are well documented will be the source of some of our taxa. There simply are no other sources in many cases - particularly for cultivars that may not be featured in current nursery inventories. Of special importance are the 'standards' specimens obtained directly from the originator of the cultivar. These are equivalent to 'type' speciemens from naturally occurring populations and are the gold standard for documentation of cultivated taxa. On a limited basis, we can afford to sponsor plant collecting trips. Typically one every other year. The regions we collect in are influenced by the ability to reach an agreement with the host country on the export and future use of the germplasm, the presence of trained field botanists to assist us 'in-country', the relative cost of doing business in the country, and the presence within the country of a number of taxa of interest to our horticulturist, plant breeder and curators. Once back in the States, assuming everything meets with USDA inspections, the seeds may or may not germinate; may or may not survive in the production greenhouses; may or maynot survive transplantation to the gardens; may or may not be 'collected' by the visiting public; may or may not be deaccessioned to make room for a new exhibit. Long-term survival of plants in botanic gardens is closely tied to the presence of a staff member 'advocate' - typically a curator. Once they retire that protection typically is no longer there. In contrast, private individuals that are passionate about the collections they have amassed are typically more closely involved in the process of translating seeds into living specimens and can frequently provide a little extra TLC at critical stages. Recently the North American Plant Collections Consortium (botanic garden members) recognized the significance of plant collections held outside botanic gardens by amending the rules to permit a botanic garden to partner with a non-botanic garden collection holder to submit a proposal to become a national collection (apologies for syntax). This is a significant step towards recognizing the existance of genetically significant collections outside of the botanic garden community. No proposals have been submitted yet, but I am hopeful that this will bring national collection status to some very significant collections that should be preserved beyond the life of the originator. Are 'in-situ' collections ideal when compared against the diversity found in the wild? Of course not. But we live in a less-than-ideal world. The importance of genetic diversity often does not compete favorably with other uses of the land and its resources in many cases. The diversity in collections, unfortunately, is all that exists of some taxa and in other cases provides the foundation for research to study reintroduction protocols. Why collect rare taxa out of the wild (possibly edging it closer to extinction) when the germplasm has already been collected and is represented in living collections? On to the main topic of this thread: Name changes. We've got a DNA researcher on staff and in conversations with him as well as Alan Meerow have developed an appreciation for what these analyses can suggest and what some of the weaknesses are. In the Living Plant Documentation department at Chicago Botanic Garden we have adopted a 'wait and see' approach to some of the recent taxonomic revisions. If they are adopted by a significant reference that we use (Flora of North America, USDA Plants Database, RHS Plant Finder, RHS Dictionary of Gardening), we adopt them and reference the new name to the old name in our database. I'll never forget as an intern for the National Trust for Scotland the 'out-of-favor' names on many of the plant labels. Thirty years later these same names are 'currently-in-favor'. The only guarantee, is that names will continue to change as we begin to understand more about plant diversity. Off the soapbox :) Boyce Tankersley Manager of Living Plant Documentation Chicago Botanic Garden 1000 Lake Cook Road Glencoe, IL 60022 btankers@chicagobotanic.org From totototo@pacificcoast.net Fri Jul 8 18:18:35 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:30:58 -0700 On 7 Jul 05 at 9:14, John Bryan wrote: > For what it is worth, my opinion is that molecular differences > should NOT trump floral form. On further reflection: The real problem occurs if two species, say /Veriolitsis glomulama/ and /V. sphærioideastrum/ can only be distinguished via molecular characteristics. It then becomes impossible for anyone outside a properly equipped laboratory to distinguish these species. Rearranging the taxonomic hierarchy on the basis of molecular evidence does not present the same problem as long as some chemistry-maddened botanist doesn't write a key that depends on the chemistry. It would still be possible to slot a given plant into the hierarchy on the basis of macroscopic features, since keys don't necessarily follow the taxonomic hierarchy. On yet more reflection: already chemistry must be used to identify some plants. Fungi present an example. The famous book on hallucinogenic and poisonous mushrooms makes certain distinctions on the basis of chemistry, though it's simple chemistry that can be done in the field if you carry along a few reagents -- color reaction stuff. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 8 19:43:24 2005 Message-Id: <42CF0C60.99401F3C@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: New mystery bulb Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:29:36 -0700 Dear Rodger; You got me! I do not know Veriolitsis and thus neither of the species. What is this genus? It is not listed in the new RHS Dictionary, or Grays Manual of Botany but I must admit I did not check any other of my books. I would be interested to know. What "chemistry-maddened" botanist, your expression and an expression that deserves wider distribution, identified it, if it is a plant? Such identification, i.e. only by molecular characteristics, might well come into play with many "known" plants if we desert morphology, perish the thought. Cheers, John E. Bryan Rodger Whitlock wrote: > > On 7 Jul 05 at 9:14, John Bryan wrote: > > > For what it is worth, my opinion is that molecular differences > > should NOT trump floral form. > > On further reflection: > > The real problem occurs if two species, say /Veriolitsis > glomulama/ and /V. sphćrioideastrum/ can only be distinguished > via molecular characteristics. It then becomes impossible for > anyone outside a properly equipped laboratory to distinguish > these species. > > Rearranging the taxonomic hierarchy on the basis of molecular > evidence does not present the same problem as long as some > chemistry-maddened botanist doesn't write a key that depends on > the chemistry. It would still be possible to slot a given plant > into the hierarchy on the basis of macroscopic features, since > keys don't necessarily follow the taxonomic hierarchy. > > On yet more reflection: already chemistry must be used to > identify some plants. Fungi present an example. The famous > book on hallucinogenic and poisonous mushrooms makes certain > distinctions on the basis of chemistry, though it's simple > chemistry that can be done in the field if you carry along a > few reagents -- color reaction stuff. > > -- > Rodger Whitlock > Victoria, British Columbia, Canada > Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate > > on beautiful Vancouver Island > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From vikingdoc@earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 19:41:35 2005 Message-Id: <410-22005758234240820@earthlink.net> From: "Kathy Stokmanis" Subject: Don't change your labels... Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:42:40 -0700 Fascinating, informative and thought provoking, the very reasons I joined this list. zone 8/9, Mediterranean, finally entering our very hot summer pattern next week when temperatures are expected to get to 106 F. It's been very pleasant so far, only in the 90's. Oriental, O/T Lilies are underway, as is Galtonia. No rain likely for the next four months. From dells@voicenet.com Sat Jul 9 07:43:38 2005 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: About Pacific BX 94 Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 07:42:42 -0400 Dear All, I am going to send out the packages from BX 94 after the weekend, but most of the items on offer (see below) are still available, if anyone is still interested. Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From totototo@pacificcoast.net Sat Jul 9 10:06:59 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Names on the wiki Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:19:02 -0700 On 7 Jul 05 at 20:56, Diane Whitehead wrote: > To minimize your work, I suggest one sentence per genus - > something like this: > > Some former members of this genus are now considered to be > G____ or H____. That mis-states the situation. "Are now considered" more or less implies universal agreement, which may not be the case. More careful language: "Botanists X and Y have transferred some members of this genus to G___ and others to H___. We have used X & Y's names in this wiki." > If you don't find a species you are looking for, check on the > G_____ page. That's okay. Pedantically yours, -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From totototo@pacificcoast.net Sat Jul 9 10:06:59 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Don't change your labels - was New mystery bulb Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:19:02 -0700 On 7 Jul 05 at 23:53, Leo A. Martin wrote: [a great deal of good sense] I have two comments. First, You fail to take into account that the concept of genus and species are found in many different cultures including very "primitive" ones. (Note parentheses.) Second, you overlook the fact that the botany of cultivated plants, including ornamentals, is a worthy field of study in its own right. Botany needn't be restricted to plants of known wild origin. Edgar Anderson's famous "Plants, Life, and Man" gives some examples. To return to the first point: In the northern hemisphere, for example, virtually every culture recognized the genus "oak" and knew there were X kinds of oaks that were distinct. Thus, the genus-species binomial is partly rooted in basic human psychology. Alberto Castillo has mentioned on occasion the taxonomic mess that some South American bulbs present, with (for example) some species wandering from Beauverdia to Ipheion to Nothoscordum, perhaps with some extra stops on the way. It's clear that where a group of plants is actively evolving (amaryllids in Argentina, the genus Narcissus in the Iberian peninsula), the binomial system is much harder to apply because the genera and species aren't so clearly delineated. So I ask that the binomials be viewed as more significant than a nearly arbitrary two-level grouping of "plants that are alike in some way." Footnote: Quercus is maybe not a good example because it contains some very distinct subgenera. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From msittner@mcn.org Sat Jul 9 10:25:35 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050709072454.02a7ae60@mail.mcn.org> From: John Bryan (by way of Mary Sue Ittner ) Subject: Names Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 07:25:03 -0700 Dear Mary Sue: I agree with you 100%. Lets keep the names we know, not the new names, would it be possible to have a page with the syn's listed? I am much concerned with the changing of names based on DNA. Were geographic variations also examined for their DNA? how many plants were used to fix the DNA, if only one or two, is this a true representation of the genus or species in question? What law is there that says such changes have to be accepted? Who checks on their work? As science progresses (?) other means of examining the genus and species will no doubt occur. Are we in for a plethora of changes over the years? possibly, and if this is so we will never keep up with the changes and chaos will result. What do we do if others examine the DNA of a plant and find and form a different opinion, as might happen with the examination of the same species, but from a different geographical area, with different soil components, climate etc. In my opinion, many botanists live in a world of their own, much involved with the anatomy of plants and not the morphology, which in my mind is a completely different field, and MUST be preserved. Who checks on the botanists when they change plant's names, based on their DNA studies? I often wonder about this, and is there a panel or system of checks they have to conduct to assure the correctness of their changes? I think not, and they seem to act as if they were correct in every case, and this might not be so. The morphology does not change, and surely it is better to base identification on unchanging characteristics that can be seen, rather on changes that might, or might not be correct, and certainly can not be readily seen. Those who change the names seem to assume, and take the attitude they are the judge and jury, and their work not challenged, and those who challenge their work are regarded as morons. I wanted to post this to all, but this message may raise some hackles. If you feel it has merit, I have no problem at all with your forwarding it to all members. And I hope you do! Cheers, John E. Bryan From dells@voicenet.com Sat Jul 9 12:26:20 2005 Message-Id: <20050709162620.48A3D4C00B@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific BX 94 Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 12:26:14 -0400 Sorry, here is the list. From Arnold Trachtenberg: 1. Bulbs of Hyacinthoides hispanica (syn. Scilla hispanica, Scilla campanulata, and a multitude of other syns); mixed blue, pink, and white. From Dell Sherk: 2. Seed of Hippeastrum vittatum (actually called: "H. vittatum x H. vittatum hybrid") x Sprekelia formosissima. I was less than meticulous when I did this pollen sharing, so the progeny could also be "H. vittatum x H. vittatum hybrid - selfed" - which wouldn't be bad either. From Pat Colville: 3. Small bulbs of Crinum cv. "Parent variegated, likes shade." SEED: 4. Hippeastrum 'Fairytale'; nice mini 5. Hippeastrum papilio x H. 'Royal Velvet' 6. H. mini papilio; not much different from regular H. papilio 7. H. 'Gold Medal' 8. Hippeastrum; white, trumpet-shaped with red stripes from an old clump 9. Veltheimia bracteata; "very fresh, plant immediately" 10. Melasphaerula ramosa 11. Synnotia villosa (syn Sparaxis villosa) Thank you, Arnold and Pat !! From myke@new.co.za Sat Jul 9 15:23:53 2005 Message-Id: <003901c584bb$cc3e4170$fc7bfea9@mykecbcb148b69> From: "Myke Ashley-Cooper" Subject: About Pacific BX 94 Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:24:14 +0200 Can I send real folding dollars to join please? Address? Regards Myke From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Sat Jul 9 17:33:38 2005 Message-Id: <000801c584cd$cc6636a0$c6085351@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: right mix? Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:33:08 +0200 Hallo All, I have a gethyllis,it stands in a 20cm pot,with 80% sand and peat at the bottom,is this the right mix for the gethyllis? Bey and thanks in advance Marie-Paule Usda 7 for Belgium From msittner@mcn.org Sun Jul 10 11:01:40 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050710074047.02ea1850@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: right mix for Gethyllis? Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:48:54 -0700 Dear Marie-Paule, Gethyllis was the topic of the week in July 2004. You can learn about it by reading the posts: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/old.php/2004-July/subject.html Also helpful would be Rachel Saunders' introduction: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/old.php/2004-July/018620.html Her last paragraph says: "The best way to grow Gethyllis is in a large deep pot in a well-drained sandy potting mix. They need to be kept dry in summer and damp in winter, and they are simple to grow from seed." Since I killed the only ones I tried to grown from seed I'm not sure I'd agree with simple to grow from seed but then I was trying to grow them at the wrong time of the year since the seed needs to be planted immediately and mine was from South Africa. I bought some bulbs from Gordon Summerfield in South Africa and am anxiously waiting to see if they have turned themselves around and will reappear in the late fall. They grew very well when I planted them, but were on the wrong cycle, but have been dormant for awhile now. I hope this helps. Mary Sue From JFlintoff@aol.com Sun Jul 10 14:18:21 2005 Message-Id: <1d6.4032c0d7.3002c06a@aol.com> From: JFlintoff@aol.com Subject: Fritillaria affinis at Point Reyes Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:18:18 EDT The clone of Fritillaria affinis named ' Wayne Roderick' does NOT grow at Pt Reyes. I visited Nicasio Reservoir, which is east of Pt Reyes, in March 1995 with Wayne and Ron Ratko. While Ron and I were looking for F liliacea in the grass Wayne came up carrying a little bit of clay with several bulblets of his namesake. He commented that a " Dutchman " had taken some of these back to the Netherlands and named it for Wayne. I think the Dutchman was Wim de Goodie. This clone, which covered a large clay bank, has the large stocky brownish flowers as the photo which have been posted in the Wiki shows. As the Latin epithet tristulis indicates the color of the flower is mournful and the Flower wears black or widow weeds Jerry John Flintoff Vashon Island,Washington,USA Zone 8. From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sun Jul 10 15:56:02 2005 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Hipp X johnsonii -flowers Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:16:21 -0500 Dear all; Time to report on latest developments on my attempt to grow this 'hardy' Hippeastrum. I planted a half dozen small bulbs near the south side of my unheated garage foundation in spring of 2003. They came up slowly each year and bit stronger. This spring they are the huskiest yet. Now there is the first bloom stalk. A single stalk on one bulb with two very typical looking flowers. Other reports seem to suggest this blooms in mid spring, May or so making this early July bloom very late. It has had two blossoms open for a week in light shade in 90 degree + heat. So this certainly suggests it is worth trying in more open situations in Zone 6 although it is mostly rated as a Zone 7 bulb. I am in Zone 5b. Actually it seems quite out of place (but a striking beauty) in this prairie garden this time of year. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Sun Jul 10 15:20:03 2005 Message-Id: <000501c58584$4da89bc0$505ba551@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: right mix for Gethyllis? Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:19:33 +0200 Thank You Marie Sue. Marie-Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Sue Ittner" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] right mix for Gethyllis? > Dear Marie-Paule, > > Gethyllis was the topic of the week in July 2004. You can learn about it by > reading the posts: > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/old.php/2004-July/subject.html > > Also helpful would be Rachel Saunders' introduction: > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/old.php/2004-July/018620.html > > Her last paragraph says: > "The best way to grow Gethyllis is in a large deep pot in a well-drained > sandy potting mix. They need to be kept dry in summer and damp in winter, > and they are simple to grow from seed." > > Since I killed the only ones I tried to grown from seed I'm not sure I'd > agree with simple to grow from seed but then I was trying to grow them at > the wrong time of the year since the seed needs to be planted immediately > and mine was from South Africa. I bought some bulbs from Gordon Summerfield > in South Africa and am anxiously waiting to see if they have turned > themselves around and will reappear in the late fall. They grew very well > when I planted them, but were on the wrong cycle, but have been dormant for > awhile now. > > I hope this helps. > > Mary Sue > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From jimmckenney@starpower.net Sun Jul 10 15:44:58 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1pjkdr@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Oxalis adenophylla, O. enneaphylla on the east coast Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:44:56 -0400 Has anyone out there who gardens on the east coast of North America had long term success with either Oxalis adenophylla or O. enneaphylla as garden plants? I've tried O. adenophylla, and it does not seem to be very heat tolerant. If you are growing these plants successfully, please post some advice. I've sent this post also to Alpine-L. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where some of the Mexican Oxalis are right at home. From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 16:27:10 2005 Message-Id: <001d01c5858d$bb9738e0$cdaa79a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: Oxalis adenophylla, O. enneaphylla on the east coast Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:27:01 -0700 I am not on the east coast, but I do grow several of the species from Patagonia and the Falkland Islands. They are very heat intolerant, and also need to be grown dry and kept very dry during the winter. O. adenophylla is the most adaptable, but still doesn't like heat. Diana Telos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim McKenney" To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:44 PM Subject: [pbs] Oxalis adenophylla, O. enneaphylla on the east coast > Has anyone out there who gardens on the east coast of North America had long > term success with either Oxalis adenophylla or O. enneaphylla as garden > plants? > > I've tried O. adenophylla, and it does not seem to be very heat tolerant. > > If you are growing these plants successfully, please post some advice. > > I've sent this post also to Alpine-L. > > Jim McKenney > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where some of the Mexican > Oxalis are right at home. > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From john@johnlonsdale.net Sun Jul 10 16:32:46 2005 Message-Id: <20050710203246.7065A4C00B@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "John Lonsdale" Subject: Oxalis adenophylla, O. enneaphylla on the east coast Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:32:44 -0400 Jim, I've tried various forms of O. enneaphylla, laciniata and adenophylla without success. A surprise is in the form of O. rhombifolia (about which I remember very little without looking it up, maybe the name is spelt wrong) which has lovely rich pink flowers over a long period in summer. It creeps around slowly in a sand bed and has been outside for 3 years. Best, J. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From voltaire@islandnet.com Sun Jul 10 16:58:24 2005 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Oxalis in gloom Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:58:21 -0700 I've been reading the oxalis descriptions and enjoying the pictures on the Telos site. Diana comments that the winter-flowering ones require sun to open. We don't get much sun in winter, and winter-flowering crocus are often a disappointment unless they have interesting designs on the outside of their buds. One oxalis opens in the evening, and that sounds like it might not need sunshine. Are there more? I wonder if "winter-flowering" is too broad a category. Are there are some that might open in early winter or early spring when we have a better chance of sunshine? -- Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8 cool mediterranean climate (dry summer, rainy winter - 68 cm annually) sandy soil From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 17:02:23 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050710135924.01106800@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Oxalis adenophylla, O. enneaphylla on the east coast Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:02:17 -0700 Jim McKenney asked, >Has anyone out there who gardens on the east coast of North America had long >term success with either Oxalis adenophylla or O. enneaphylla as garden >plants? > >I've tried O. adenophylla, and it does not seem to be very heat tolerant. O. adenophylla is a standard rock garden plant here in the Pacific Northwest, but it may not tolerate the hot, humid east coast summers. In nature, both are alpine species, growing in scree just above the timberline in the southern Andes. O. enneaphylla is usually regarded as the more difficult to cultivate; I grow it in pots. Perhaps the inexpensive O. adenophylla would do better for Jim if planted in a scree bed on the north side of a rock, or in a wall; I have a number of them in walls that have grown there for more than 15 years. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 17:45:02 2005 Message-Id: <001201c58598$9c5904d0$86dcf7a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: Oxalis in gloom Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:44:52 -0700 This is interesting, since I noticed this last winter distinct differences with different species as to their ability to open their flowers when the sun was not shining. Within the 'tribe' O. obtusa, there are several large-flowered ones that seem to need less sun. In our catalogue these are: O. obtusa tangerine, amber and coral. We have others that aren't listed. They open their flowers in the early morning before the sun has reached its full intensity, and stay open longer too, and also open on dull days. My business associate and I wondered last winter if this is a distinct group different from the others. The flower structure and bulb seems very similar to the other obtusa species, although the petals do not overlap in these species and they are much larger than most others in the group. We think they are a different species, but without much to go on in the literature we still lump them all together. I have to say that the species we list as O. comosa falls in this category also. It came to me from Michael Vassar labeled as O. comosa, and I have left it with that moniker since I don't know what else to call it, but, honestly, I don't think it is correct. It opens on dull days and also stays open late in the day. O. fragrans is the one that opens in the evening and stays open late. I brought a pot into the house, but the scent was so overwhelming I had to put it outside on the porch. O. livida grows and looks much better in some shade, so I think that would qualify also. Maybe next winter I will try to note which species are open on dull days so that I don't have to rely on my inadequate memory. The early blooming species are O. commutata and O. lobtata (highly recommended) - both are also strongly scented and bloom as early as August to September. Late blooming ones are O. incarnata (can be a pest in the ground), O. inaequalis and O. bowiei. There are probably others that I am not remembering. Diana Telos Rare Bulbs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diane Whitehead" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Oxalis in gloom > I've been reading the oxalis descriptions and enjoying the pictures > on the Telos site. Diana comments that the winter-flowering ones > require sun to open. We don't get much sun in winter, and > winter-flowering crocus are often a disappointment unless they have > interesting designs on the outside of their buds. > > One oxalis opens in the evening, and that sounds like it might not > need sunshine. Are there more? I wonder if "winter-flowering" is too > broad a category. Are there are some that might open in early winter > or early spring when we have a better chance of sunshine? > > -- > Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada > maritime zone 8 > cool mediterranean climate (dry summer, rainy winter - 68 cm annually) > sandy soil > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jimmckenney@starpower.net Sun Jul 10 17:49:48 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1pkfmv@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: scented oxalis; was RE: Oxalis in gloom Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:49:46 -0400 Scented Oxalis? I'm interested, very interested: what is the scent like? Jim McKenney From msittner@mcn.org Sun Jul 10 18:15:47 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050710145350.02da1b10@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Oxalis in gloom Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:03:26 -0700 Dear Diane, A lot of the Oxalis I grow bloom in the fall when we have sunshine before the winter storms hit and I bet you'd have success with them. I have been growing many of the winter flowering plants in my cold frame as it isn't just sun they want, its warmth. Just a little extra warmth may do it. In fact on a gloomy day they can be brought inside and they often will open up. I enjoy them and take them back out later. They may get a bit elongated and not be the tight plants seen in the wild or those people who live in Southern California can grow, since they want bright light, but I can live with that if I still enjoy the flowers and the leaves. We ended up with about 60 inches of rain this past wet season so have a fair amount of days when it is not sunny. I have to warn you however, that it is very easy to become hooked on them and then you'll find the Telos catalog very hard to resist. Even though they have the weed reputation, the fact that Oxalis is one of our most popular wiki pages speaks to all those people who love them. Mary Sue From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 18:50:22 2005 Message-Id: <001001c585a1$bcf3cb90$0bd2f7a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: scented oxalis; was RE: Oxalis in gloom Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:50:13 -0700 Many Oxalis are scented, Jim. O. commutata has a sort of talcum powder scent, O. lobata a honey-like scent (both are very strongly scented). O. fragrans is freesia-like. O. pocockiae is scented like fresh coconut (really!). I have many different clones of O. pocockiae and all are scented, although the scent varies from one clone to another. The scented O. obtusa that we list I think is like violets. Michael Vassar thought that at least half of the oxalis in his collection were scented in varying degrees. I don't think I have a sensitive nose, but I would say a third of mine are scented, although some are faint. Diana Telos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim McKenney" To: "'diana chapman'" ; "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: [pbs] scented oxalis; was RE: Oxalis in gloom > Scented Oxalis? > > I'm interested, very interested: what is the scent like? > > Jim McKenney > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jul 10 18:54:06 2005 Message-Id: <42D1A70C.3020504@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: allium macranthum Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:54:04 -0400 Flowered a bit earlier in a pot than in the ground. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Misc%20Onions Arnold New Jersey From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jul 10 19:05:16 2005 Message-Id: <42D1A9AA.7060906@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: bletilla Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:05:14 -0400 A seed pod formed on a potted bletilla from the Manhattan Chapter of NARGS plant sale, now what? Arnold New Jersey http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Bletilla From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jul 10 19:12:07 2005 Message-Id: <42D1AB44.10809@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Cardiocrinum Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:12:04 -0400 Formation of seed pods. The flowers never fully opened and wilted in our east coast heat. Arnold New Jersey http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Cardiocrinum From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 20:06:42 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: scented oxalis; was RE: Oxalis in gloom Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:06:41 +0000 Hi Jim and Diana: Among those scented Oxalises, there is an Argentinian species, possibly a form of articulata that produces both in fall and in spring big lilac white centred flowers with the sweetest powerful scent of violets. Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From jimmckenney@starpower.net Sun Jul 10 20:14:20 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1meh6d@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: scented oxalis; was RE: Oxalis in gloom Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:14:18 -0400 Alberto, that sounds wonderful! Why not send a few to Diana so she can propagate them and offer them on her list in the future? Aren't violet scented flowers amazing? This year my plants of Sarracenia rubra produced lots of flowers with a very strong violet scent. Unlike the evanescent scent produced by Viola odorata, the scent of the Sarracenia keeps coming. Is that true of your Oxalis? Is the violet scent of your Oxalis the sort of which you can only get a quick whiff, or is it a scent which you can enjoy over and over without losing it? Jim McKenney -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Alberto Castillo Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 8:07 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [pbs] scented oxalis; was RE: Oxalis in gloom Hi Jim and Diana: Among those scented Oxalises, there is an Argentinian species, possibly a form of articulata that produces both in fall and in spring big lilac white centred flowers with the sweetest powerful scent of violets. Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From mmattus@charter.net Sun Jul 10 21:25:38 2005 Message-Id: From: Matt Mattus Subject: Oxalis in gloom Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:25:36 -0400 I grow about 35 species of winter blooming Oxalis and what I have found is that sometimes it is the heat that triggers the blossoms to open, or at least here in New England, where I grow mine in a glass house kept at 45 D (at night mostly) and on sunny days it may rise to about 90 F. in January. I like to photograph them, and it seems that it is a combination of both heat and sun, since I bring some pots into the house into a north window and they open, but on cold cloudy days, they never open. In the morning (like I have time to watch this, but somehow I make time on Saturdays!) - I notice that ven though the bright winter sun is hitting the plants, they don't seem to open until the air temperatures reach about 70F. Matt Mattus Worcester, Massachusetts USA Zone 5b On 7/10/05 5:44 PM, "diana chapman" wrote: > This is interesting, since I noticed this last winter distinct differences > with different species as to their ability to open their flowers when the > sun was not shining. Within the 'tribe' O. obtusa, there are several > large-flowered ones that seem to need less sun. In our catalogue these are: > O. obtusa tangerine, amber and coral. We have others that aren't listed. > They open their flowers in the early morning before the sun has reached its > full intensity, and stay open longer too, and also open on dull days. My > business associate and I wondered last winter if this is a distinct group > different from the others. The flower structure and bulb seems very similar > to the other obtusa species, although the petals do not overlap in these > species and they are much larger than most others in the group. We think > they are a different species, but without much to go on in the literature we > still lump them all together. I have to say that the species we list as O. > comosa falls in this category also. It came to me from Michael Vassar > labeled as O. comosa, and I have left it with that moniker since I don't > know what else to call it, but, honestly, I don't think it is correct. It > opens on dull days and also stays open late in the day. O. fragrans is the > one that opens in the evening and stays open late. I brought a pot into the > house, but the scent was so overwhelming I had to put it outside on the > porch. O. livida grows and looks much better in some shade, so I think that > would qualify also. Maybe next winter I will try to note which species are > open on dull days so that I don't have to rely on my inadequate memory. > > The early blooming species are O. commutata and O. lobtata (highly > recommended) - both are also strongly scented and bloom as early as August > to September. Late blooming ones are O. incarnata (can be a pest in the > ground), O. inaequalis and O. bowiei. There are probably others that I am > not remembering. > > Diana > Telos Rare Bulbs > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Diane Whitehead" > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: [pbs] Oxalis in gloom > > >> I've been reading the oxalis descriptions and enjoying the pictures >> on the Telos site. Diana comments that the winter-flowering ones >> require sun to open. We don't get much sun in winter, and >> winter-flowering crocus are often a disappointment unless they have >> interesting designs on the outside of their buds. >> >> One oxalis opens in the evening, and that sounds like it might not >> need sunshine. Are there more? I wonder if "winter-flowering" is too >> broad a category. Are there are some that might open in early winter >> or early spring when we have a better chance of sunshine? >> >> -- >> Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada >> maritime zone 8 >> cool mediterranean climate (dry summer, rainy winter - 68 cm annually) >> sandy soil >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From mmattus@charter.net Sun Jul 10 21:27:33 2005 Message-Id: From: Matt Mattus Subject: scented oxalis; was RE: Oxalis in gloom Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:27:32 -0400 Oh gosh! I HAVE TO HAVE this O. fragrans! Matt Mattus On 7/10/05 5:49 PM, "Jim McKenney" wrote: > Scented Oxalis? > > I'm interested, very interested: what is the scent like? > > Jim McKenney > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From irisman@ameritech.net Sun Jul 10 21:28:57 2005 Message-Id: <003401c585b7$d0aee780$5ad8fea9@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: Fw: vaguely in the area of Hippeastrum x johnsonii Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:28:17 -0500 ----- Subject: Fw: vaguely in the area of Hippeastrum x johnsonii > > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 7:15 PM > Subject: vaguely in the area of Hippeastrum x johnsonii > > >> Hello All: I'm new in this group, but this can be considered relevant. >> (Hello Jim Waddick) >> >> I had three bulbs of Sprekelia formosissima x Hippeastrum x johnsonii >> (grown outdoors and wintered over) >> which spontaneously selfed this late spring, and set 2 seed capsules. I >> understand that these seeds are viable. >> >> Will send a sample of ten seeds to anyone who posts to me untill I run >> out of them. Cordially, >> Adam Fikso. USDA Zone 5a in Glenview, IL > From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 22:12:48 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: scented oxalis; was RE: Oxalis in gloom Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:12:46 +0000 Hi Jim: The violet scent in this Oxalis is very strong, that is why I used the word powerful. And it is also very persistent. But, it may be something to do with climate too for Viola odorata here has a very strong and lasting scent of... Viola odorata! Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From jimmckenney@starpower.net Sun Jul 10 22:47:01 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1mfnnt@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: scented oxalis; was RE: Oxalis in gloom Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:46:59 -0400 That's very interesting, Alberto, because traditionally the scent of Viola odorata has been thought to somehow numb the olfactory senses. In other words, you get a whiff, but you are not able to detect the odor for long. If you hand the same blossom to another person, they will immediately be able to detect the scent - but only briefly. Hand it immediately to a third person, and the same thing happens. On the other hand, some plants described as violet-scented do not have this property of numbing the senses. The Sarracenia I mentioned, for instance, can be enjoyed over and over without a noticeable lessening of the scent. Maybe if you can send up some of your scented Argentinian Oxalis, you can send up some of those violets, too. : ) Jim McKenney From bklehm@comcast.net Mon Jul 11 00:34:43 2005 Message-Id: <3f20377eb1e6f60da5b6f3ced6a8878b@comcast.net> From: Brook Klehm Subject: Fritillaria affinis at Point Reyes Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:34:39 -0700 Jerry, (or is it John?), Did you ever find the Fritillaria liliacea? I searched around back in the early '90s for that plant in the vicinity of the Nicasio Reservoir, but could find none. I'm a bit nervous about identifying the exact location of a rare plant, but I am curious if the species is still present in that location. I searched towards the northeast side of the reservoir to no avail. I have enjoyed it in its Santa Rosa, CA location (though the name of the state park is currently evading my memory). Thanks, Brook Klehm Sebastopol, cold side of USDA 9 On Jul 10, 2005, at 11:18 AM, JFlintoff@aol.com wrote: > While Ron and I were looking for F liliacea in the grass Wayne came up > carrying a little bit of clay with several bulblets of his namesake. From Zonneveld@rulbim.leidenuniv.nl Mon Jul 11 03:57:31 2005 Message-Id: <42D2427A.5803.31C25C@localhost> From: "zonneveld" Subject: Firtillaria affinis Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:57:14 +0200 THis is the info I have on Fritillaria affinis : Faffinis Limelight is triploid F affinis ssp tristulis is not a straight triploid , could be a hybrid. I have not measured F affinis Wayne Roderick but would like to do so. I only need a single fresh leaf or a bulb with a ''germ'' in it. Ben J.M.Zonneveld Institute of Biology,Leiden University, Clusius lab Wassenaarse weg 64, 2333 AL Leiden, The Netherlands Zonneveld@rulbim.Leidenuniv.NL Fax: +31-71-5274999. min temp -10C (15F) From ajbroome@xtra.co.nz Mon Jul 11 04:04:30 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20050711200047.05e58900@pop3.xtra.co.nz> From: Andrew Broome Subject: scented oxalis Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:04:24 +1200 Jim said... > Scented Oxalis? As others have said, several species of Oxalis are scented, the first one I found was Ox. polyphylla pentaphylla. Since then I sniff each new species as it comes into flower. Andrew, in NZ. http://freewebtown.com/oxalis/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/45 - Release Date: 9/07/2005 From ajbroome@xtra.co.nz Mon Jul 11 04:09:51 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20050711200441.05e58670@pop3.xtra.co.nz> From: Andrew Broome Subject: Oxalis adenophylla, O. enneaphylla on the east coast Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:09:45 +1200 Jim said... > Has anyone out there who gardens on the east coast of North > America had long term success with either Oxalis adenophylla > or O. enneaphylla as garden plants? I've had no long term success with any of the 'alpine' South American species even here in my part of NZ where it rarely gets near 30C in the summer and only a few frosts per winter. They certainly don't like the heat. You *might* try the hybrid, Ox. x 'Ione Hecker' since this *seems* a little more tolerant at least the one clone I've kept alive for nearly 2 years now after several attempts. They're such attractive plants, I wish I could keep them alive but I've pretty much given up on trying them here under my conditions. Andrew. http://freewebtown.com/oxalis/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/45 - Release Date: 9/07/2005 From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Mon Jul 11 09:38:43 2005 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Was BX 94 - Variegated Crinum Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:42:56 -0500 >3. Small bulbs of Crinum cv. "Parent variegated, likes shade." Dear All; I noticed this listed on the current BX and assumed it is a tender cv such as the variegated C. asiaticum types. It reminded me of my curiosity about a variegated AND hardy Crinum. Does anyone know or grow any variegated foliage C. x powellii or C. bulbispermum or any named cultivar of a crinum able to survive outdoors in Zone 6 with well variegated foliage including purple shades? Thanks Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From johngrimshaw@tiscali.co.uk Mon Jul 11 11:32:01 2005 Message-Id: <002e01c5862d$ac2e8f70$9bef403e@John> From: Subject: Variegated Crinum Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:31:18 +0100 There is a variegated Crinum moorei in the conservatory at Kirstenbosch BG, Cape Town, under the care of Graham Duncan. I will e-mail him & ask what its origin is. E.A. Bowles, in 'My Garden in Autumn and Winter' (1915) in discussing C. moorei, records: 'Mr Elwes has kindly given me a plant of of his variety with magnificently variegated foliage, a seedling of the original plant, which doubles its interest in showing that the variegation can be inherited.' A discourse on the heritability of variegation follows, but nothing more about the Crinum. When visiting Myddelton House (Bowles' home) earlier in the year I enquired specifically about the variegated Crinum, but nothing was known about it. Needless to say there is nothing here at Colesbourne, the only Crinum survivor being a few very scrappy bits of C. xpowellii and they may not have been Elwes originals. Some years ago, on the IBS forum, there was a discussion about variegation etc in C. moorei and several of us reported that achlorophyllous plants had arisen from seed, or intermediates with reduced chlorophyll. I still have one of these, but although pallid it couldn't really be called variegated 'without some risk of terminological inexactitude' (to quote Winston Churchill). John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Garden Manager, Colesbourne Gardens Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Waddick" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 2:42 PM Subject: [pbs] Was BX 94 - Variegated Crinum > >3. Small bulbs of Crinum cv. "Parent variegated, likes shade." > > Dear All; > I noticed this listed on the current BX and assumed it is a > tender cv such as the variegated C. asiaticum types. It reminded me > of my curiosity about a variegated AND hardy Crinum. Does anyone know > or grow any variegated foliage C. x powellii or C. bulbispermum or > any named cultivar of a crinum able to survive outdoors in Zone 6 > with well variegated foliage including purple shades? > > Thanks Jim W. > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick > From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Mon Jul 11 11:37:25 2005 Message-Id: <002d01c5862e$6bb09780$11d3f7a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: Nomenclature Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:37:16 -0700 Since we seem to have members on the PBS forum who are versed in Latin or linguistics, I would like some clarification of spelling, if possible. Calochortus westoni when first described was spelled thus. It has morphed into C. westonii, repeated in recent articles and even in the Jepson Manual. What gives? The same applies to C. gunnisoni, now spelled C. gunnisonii. I thought from my extremely distant memories of Latin that the "i" ending means "of" or "from" or "belonging to" or something of that sort, so why put two of them? Then what about C. leichtlinii, C. nuttallii, C. coxii, C. howellii, C. lyallii and C. weedii? And then there's Camassia cusckii etc., etc. Comments appreciated. Diana Telos Rare Bulbs From jshields@indy.net Mon Jul 11 12:03:07 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050711105506.01ef2990@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Nomenclature Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:03:16 -0500 Hi Diana, Under the IUB rules, persons' names when Latinized must have "-ius" (masculine) or "-ia" (feminine) appended unless the root name ends in "-r". Published mistakes in spelling have been changed routinely. E.g., Haemanthus barkerae is "(Miss) Barker's haemanthus," while in Calochortus westonii, "westonii" is the genitive (possessive) case of the (Latinized) name "Westonius". So it translates as "Weston's calochortus." Taxonomists are still trying to get the rest of us to refer to "Nerine masoniorum" instead of the N. "masonorum." Jim Shields At 08:37 AM 7/11/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Since we seem to have members on the PBS forum who are versed in Latin or >linguistics, I would like some clarification of spelling, if possible. > >Calochortus westoni when first described was spelled thus. It has morphed >into C. westonii, repeated in recent articles and even in the Jepson Manual. >What gives? The same applies to C. gunnisoni, now spelled C. gunnisonii. I >thought from my extremely distant memories of Latin that the "i" ending >means "of" or "from" or "belonging to" or something of that sort, so why put >two of them? Then what about C. leichtlinii, C. nuttallii, C. coxii, C. >howellii, C. lyallii and C. weedii? And then there's Camassia cusckii etc., >etc. > >Comments appreciated. > >Diana >Telos Rare Bulbs > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 11 12:34:44 2005 Message-Id: <42D29C62.D50F4FF5@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: Nomenclature Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:20:50 -0700 Dear Diana: You will note in the examples you gave, the species commemorate a person. In the International Code of botanical Nomenclature, the following is observed. When the name of the person ends in a vowel, the letter 'i' is added thus glazioui from Glaziou, baureaui from Burreau. The exception being when the name ends in 'a' when an e is added, thus balansae from Balansa. When the name ends in a consonant, the letters 'ii' are added. Thus from Ramond it becomes ramondii. When the name ends in 'er' then an 'i' is added, thus Kerner becomes kerneri. If a personal name is already Latin or Greek, the appropriate Latin genetive should be used. Alexander becomes alexandri, Linnaeus becomes linnaei, When the name is derived from the names of women, then these have a substantive form they are given the feminine termination, as for example Cypripedium hookerae, Rosa beatricis, Scabious olgae. These recommendations e-i were adapted from the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature in 1961. If you wish to know more I would suggest the book 'Botanical Latin' by William T. Stearn, published by David and Charles, in 1966, the 3rd edition revised in 1983, the 3rd impression 1986. It is a book well worth having. The International Code of botanical Nomenclature is well worth reading, if you have the patience! Cheers, John E. Bryan diana chapman wrote: > > Since we seem to have members on the PBS forum who are versed in Latin or > linguistics, I would like some clarification of spelling, if possible. > > Calochortus westoni when first described was spelled thus. It has morphed > into C. westonii, repeated in recent articles and even in the Jepson Manual. > What gives? The same applies to C. gunnisoni, now spelled C. gunnisonii. I > thought from my extremely distant memories of Latin that the "i" ending > means "of" or "from" or "belonging to" or something of that sort, so why put > two of them? Then what about C. leichtlinii, C. nuttallii, C. coxii, C. > howellii, C. lyallii and C. weedii? And then there's Camassia cusckii etc., > etc. > > Comments appreciated. > > Diana > Telos Rare Bulbs > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Jul 11 12:25:43 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1pssh8@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Nomenclature Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:25:40 -0400 This, as I understand it, is one of those situations where the more arcane aspects of grammar and linguistics intersect. First of all, let's tackle the ii endings. Why are there two i's? To answer that question you have to understand what is happening when Latin compounds are formed. And for purposes of this discussion, the combination of a foreign - i.e. not Latin - name with a Latin case ending is a compound. When Latin forms compound words, it generally uses the letter i as the connective vowel. (Greek on the other hand used the letter omicron (note that in both Latin and Greek, these connective vowels are short; i.e. the short omicron rather than the long omega, in the case of Latin, the short i. That is important to remember, because it can influence the position of the accent for those who follow the 'antepenult' rule for accent). So, back to Latin compounds. They use the short i to connect two word stems to form a new word. Thus, if you want to combine the word aesculus (horse chestnut) and the word for foliage, folius, you get aescul (the stem of aesculus) + the connective vowel i + folius to get aesculiflius. There are minor complications with words which have a different stem in the oblique cases, or words which use noun forms in the possessive (frowned upon), but the above is a good generalized picture of what happens. In the case of a word derived from a non-Latin personal name, you follow the same procedure: you "Latinize" it by adding an i to the "stem". In, for instance English personal names, which do not have stems different from the nominative form, you simply add an i to "Latinize" the name. For instance, with the name Smith, you write smithi- . The i- at the end of the this word indicates that there is more to come, depending on whether you want to combine it with another Latin stem (poor form to mix Latin words and non-Latin words in the same compound) or simply add a Latin case ending. What we want to do is add a Latin case ending. That takes care of the first of the two i's. Now on the that Latin case ending. If the word Smith refers to a masculine Smith, and you want to use the traditional form to commemorate Mr. Smith, you use the masculine singular genitive form which just happens to be another i. Thus, you have Smith + connective vowel i + masculine singular genitive i to give smithii. Note on pronunciation (Jane, be still): how you pronounce these words is your business. However, there is something to be said for consistency, and it irks me to hear people pronounce the first of those i's as e as in easy and the second of those i's as eye. Thus, smith-ee-eye. The two i's differ in length (the connective i remember is short, the genitive i is long), but they are both the same letter otherwise. I prefer to pronounce them both with the e sound (remember the Great English Vowel Shift), the first one short, the second long. It's curious that even people with no experience of linguistics instinctively seem to pronounce the first i as e in easy; I have no idea why they switch to the 'eye' sound for the second one. The other question you ask, Diana, has more to do with esthetics than grammar proper. Vowels which follow or precede other vowels are subject to change in Latin and other languages. Two together pose one sort of problem; three together are intolerable. When a non-Latin personal name ends in a vowel, it is usually Latinized without the stem vowel and, if the masculine singular genitive form is wanted, one i is added to the vowel which ends the non-Latin name. Thus Lilium grayi, not L. grayii. I would like to comment on one other thing you said. "I thought from my extremely distant memories of Latin that the "i" ending means "of" or "from" or "belonging to" or something of that sort," Yes, it does. Historically (in this case I mean pre-Linnean) usage was in a simple grammatical sense. Because scientific names were not standardized, each scholar tended to use his (were there any hers? ) own names. And when reading these old books, you have to keep in mind that although they sometimes look like modern binomials, they were intended simply as Latin. Because scholars used their own naming systems, commentators frequently found it necessary to write something like Caprimulgus rayi to indicate "the concept Caprimulgus as defined by Ray". In modern times this usage is obsolete; modern usage had degenerated into a vanity show. These modern genitive name forms are purely honorifics. There is more to this, but the above will get you started. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I wonder how many of you know about Roland Wilbur Brown. From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Jul 11 12:43:20 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1pt596@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Nomenclature Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:43:12 -0400 Jim Shields answers a question I asked on this forum early last year. How many of you remember the brief period when Tulipa fosteriana made the rounds as Tulipa fosterana? Or Tulipa bakeriana as Tulipa bakerana? There are others! The "if it ends in r" rule Jim cites was at play there. However, you should not expect universal application of this rule. Why? Because it is based on linguistic principles which are not apparent to most people. Because the symbol r represents many different phonemic phenomena in different languages ( or for that matter, within the same language), this rule has to be applied judiciously. In other words, don't apply the rule by rote. If past practice is any gauge, most people will not understand the rule and will apply it indiscriminately. Native speakers of English will be among the worst offenders because our language is so different from the romance languages whose esthetics the "after r" rule reflects. Thus, what started as an idea well grounded in linguistics will become a silly spelling witch- hunt. And isn't there a more basic problem: what sense does it make to establish such arcane rules, rules based on sound linguistic principles, if you then turn around and pronounce the words as if they were English (a language in which the rules in question do not apply)? Jim McKenney From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Jul 11 12:46:17 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1pt6vd@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Nomenclature Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:46:13 -0400 In my first response to this issue, please read aesculifolius for aesculiflius. From paige@hillkeep.ca Mon Jul 11 14:52:55 2005 Message-Id: <015501c58649$bd511770$5a8157d1@m6u3j5> From: "Pacific Rim" Subject: Fw: Nomenclature Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:36:44 -0700 > Calochortus westoni when first described was spelled thus. It has morphed > into C. westonii, repeated in recent articles and even in the Jepson > Manual. > What gives? The same applies to C. gunnisoni, now spelled C. gunnisonii. Hello, Diana and all. A copy of the latest (1999) version of the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature will be found at http://www.bgbm.fu-berlin.de/iapt/nomenclature/code/SaintLouis/0000St.Luistitle.htm Be sure to copy the complete getline into your browser. It ends at ".htm". Chapter VII covers spelling and gender. With best wishes Paige Woodward paige@hillkeep.ca www.hillkeep.ca From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Mon Jul 11 15:00:13 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050711205903.01eb6ec0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: bletilla Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:59:59 +0200 At 01:05 11-07-2005, Arnold Trachtenberg wrote: >A seed pod formed on a potted bletilla from the Manhattan Chapter of >NARGS plant sale, now what? > >Arnold >New Jersey > > >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Bletilla >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php You can see if they grow from seed! If you have too many, offer some to the rest of us. Aren't they supposed to make seed pods? Carol From arnold@nj.rr.com Mon Jul 11 15:09:00 2005 Message-Id: <42D2C365.2010809@nj.rr.com> From: arnold trachtenberg Subject: bletilla Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:07:17 -0400 Carol: I am always amazed when a plant produces seeds out of its native environment and especially an orchid. If anyone would like seed I would be gald to send it to Dell. Arnold From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Jul 11 15:09:57 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1pv6n5@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Fw: Nomenclature Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:09:55 -0400 Thanks, Paige. In my recent posting about the dieresis, I indicated that I thought the use of the dieresis was optional and that I would check. Here's what the Rules say: 60.6. Diacritical signs are not used in Latin plant names. In names (either new or old) drawn from words in which such signs appear, the signs are to be suppressed with the necessary transcription of the letters so modified; for example ä, ö, ü become, respectively, ae, oe, ue; é, è, ê become e, or sometimes ae; ñ becomes n; ø becomes oe; å becomes ao. The diaeresis, indicating that a vowel is to be pronounced separately from the preceding vowel (as in Cephaëlis, Isoëtes), is permissible; the ligatures -æ- and -œ-, indicating that the letters are pronounced together, are to be replaced by the separate letters -ae- and -oe-. I assume that "permissible" means that you can use it if you want to but are not obligated to use it. Jim McKenney From fbiasella@watertownsavings.com Mon Jul 11 15:49:40 2005 Message-Id: <002801c58651$a9f36220$55a7f10a@wsbmain.net> From: "fbiasella" Subject: bletilla Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:49:34 -0400 Hello All, My Bletilla have been doing this for a long time (20+ years) but as far as I know the seeds need to be germinated in a laboratory environment or similar to their native environment. If you want I too can send the (many) mature seed pods to Dell in the fall for anyone who's interested. Warm Regards, Fred Biasella Cambridge (Boston) MA USDA Zone 6b From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Jul 11 16:41:01 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1q0iu3@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Nomenclature Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:40:58 -0400 Jim S pointed out the change appropriate to the name derived from the English name Mason: older books show masonorum, the preferred form now is masoniorum. Here's another discrepancy between older usage and current usage. In an earlier post I made reference to words which have a different stem in the oblique cases. What does that mean? In Latin and Greek, there are words which have one stem for the nominative form and another stem for the other cases. Thus, the Greek word for mouth is, in its Latinized form, stoma. But the other cases (in the grammatical sense) of the word are based on the stem stomat- . Compounds should be formed from this oblique stem, not the nominative stem. Thus, in older books, you will see the family name Melastomaceae; the preferred modern form is Melastomataceae. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I'm wondering if some of you think it's time for me to shut my big stoma. From arnold@nj.rr.com Mon Jul 11 17:07:58 2005 Message-Id: <42D2DFAB.8050805@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: bletilla Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:07:55 -0400 Fred; As I thought. You may need a petri dish and some agar. Arnold From garrideb@well.com Mon Jul 11 17:28:51 2005 Message-Id: <42D2E453.4060102@well.com> From: "James R. Fisher" Subject: bletilla Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:27:47 -0400 Arnold Trachtenberg wrote: > Fred; > > As I thought. You may need a petri dish and some agar. > > Arnold ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If Bletilla seed are like other orchid seed, a sterile positive pressure transfer hood, Erlenmeyer flasks for the seedlings and a recipe for nutrient agar (Murashagi-Skoog, likely.) -jrf -- Jim Fisher Vienna, Virginia USA 38.9 N 77.2 W USDA Zone 7 Max. 105 F [40 C], Min. 5 F [-15 C] From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Jul 11 20:57:47 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1mrkmk@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Nomenclature: a long quibble Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:57:43 -0400 John Bryan said: "The exception being when the name ends in 'a' when an e is added, thus balansae from Balansa." Actually, what is being added in this instance is not an -e but rather the letter combination ae. And it's being added to the stem Balans- . The ae is the feminine singular genitive form. More about this below; it gets more and more curious. [In John's defense, it should be noted that the Rules express it the same way - they say add an -e). That advice obscures what is really happening.] John has quoted the rule as it applies to specific epithets; for generic names, one adds -ea to words which end in -a to form a generic name. The name John used, balansae, is (or can be) a specific epithet, but not properly a generic name. There are two aspects of this rule (actually it is Recommendation 60B) which are bizarre in my opinion. Let's get the easier one out of the way first. In the example used above, based on the name of the French botanist Benjamin (Benedict) Balansa, (do I need to say a male person?) the botanical names (both the generic name and the specific name) are feminine. In other words, the rules treat names ending in -a as feminine words. Never mind that in their language of origin there might not be any such gender implications. Since the name in question is a French name, and French does make such gender distinctions, enough said about this one. Now on to the second aspect of the bizarre nature of this recommendation. This is where doing things by rote leads us down the wrong path. The recommendation fails to distinguish between vowels and vowel sounds. The linguistic basis for the changes under consideration are based on the sounds involved, not the spelling. The spelling is irrelevant; but since the purpose of the rules is to codify spelling, things have gone awry. For instance, here's what the rules say Recommendation 60B 60B.1. When a new generic name, or subgeneric or sectional epithet, is taken from the name of a person, it should be formed as follows: (a) When the name of the person ends with a vowel, the letter -a is added (thus Ottoa after Otto; Sloanea after Sloane), except when the name ends with -a, when -ea is added (e.g. Collaea after Colla), or with -ea (as Correa), when no letter is added. Do you see the problem here? Say the name Sloane. As spelled, it does end in a vowel. But the vowel is silent. As pronounced, it ends in a consonant sound. In fact, it ends in the "n" sound. It should be treated as a word ending in a consonant. And how many syllables does this Sloanea have? Two? (say Sloane and add an a) Three? (say Slone + e + a ) Four? (slo-a-ne-a). (At this point it occurs to me that maybe I don't know how to pronounce Sloane. I assume it is pronounced as a one syllable word.) They are paying too much attention to the written form and are ignoring the underlying sounds. Nor is it hard to understand why: isn't the purpose of these names to stroke the vanity of the person honored? Wouldn't they complain if you re-spelled their name (misspelled their name)? Linnaeus wrestled with this problem, too. He coined the name Stranvaesia, based on the English name Strangeway, to honor a wealthy benefactor. My impression is that Linnaeus was making a good faith effort to latinize the name. No doubt the honoree complained, perhaps saying that his name was now unrecognizable or looked foreign. Whatever the case, Linnaeus soon dropped the practice of re-spelling names so that if pronounced as Latin they would approximate their sound in their language of origin. And for better or worse, that's the predominant way it's been done since. Spelling rules! So does doing things by rote! Jim McKenney From piabinha@yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 22:15:19 2005 Message-Id: <20050712021517.20201.qmail@web51908.mail.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: Bletilla; Indian Pipes Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:15:17 -0700 (PDT) sorry to burst your bubble, arnold, but Bletilla seedpods form easily. germinating the seed is another matter. i just saw some Bletilla in flower and seed this past week, in portland, oregon, at the chinese garden they have there in downtonw (Lan Su Yuan). incidentally, hiking around washington park i saw indian pipes (Monotropa uniflora). that was exciting, although i didn't know what they were until later. tsuh yang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From arnold@nj.rr.com Tue Jul 12 08:35:08 2005 Message-Id: <42D3B898.2090003@nj.rr.com> From: arnold trachtenberg Subject: eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:33:28 -0400 I have a number of different species of eucomis growing in pots and one which has survived a northeast winter in the ground. My question and dilemma involves the potted bulbs. It seems the larger ones like E. pole-evansii become too tall and flop over at this time of year and actually leaves have cracked and broken off. Question is how deep should the bulbs be planted and could shallow planting contribute to the weak foliage? I try not to use to much nitrogen in the fertilizer and generally use a low "N" compared to the "P" and "K". Should the bulb be planted deeper? The growth habit of eucomis makes it a poor candidate for use of with traditional plant supports Arnold New Jersey From janemcgary@earthlink.net Tue Jul 12 11:58:26 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050712085535.01153e48@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:58:25 -0700 Arnold asked, Question is how deep should the [Eucomis] bulbs be planted and could shallow >planting contribute to the weak foliage? I try not to use to much >nitrogen in the fertilizer and generally use a low "N" compared to the >"P" and "K". > >Should the bulb be planted deeper? The growth habit of eucomis makes it >a poor candidate for use of with traditional plant supports I live in an area with winter temperatures similar to Arnold's, and I've grown several species of Eucomis, including E. pole-evansii, in the open garden for years. They are summer-growing, so they survive the winters well while dormant. I plant them quite deep (with the top of the bulb 4-6 inches below the surface, and then cover them with a deep layer of bark mulch. They also like plenty of moisture in summer. They don't flop over, even the very large purple-leafed one (I don't know what species it is), which does flop in pots. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon From arnold@nj.rr.com Tue Jul 12 12:17:59 2005 Message-Id: <42D3ECD1.5020300@nj.rr.com> From: arnold trachtenberg Subject: eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:16:17 -0400 Jane; Thanks, that may be the problem. I have mine planted decidedly shallow. I recall that I saw a reference that suggested shallow planting for Eucomis. I may have to wait out the year and when I repot next year plunge then deeper. They do love a really wet soil. I also think they may need bigger pots. It seems they are very affected by air temperature and get a bit flaccid in very warm weather. Arnold New Jersey From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 13:22:11 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:22:10 +0000 Hi Arnold: Eucomis are very fine rather undemanding plants. It is true that they like plenty of watering during summer but a drained mix is better so you can keep them on the dryish side when they are dormant in winter. Bulbs are deep in the soil and seedlings will adjust themselves to depth with time. During really hot weather the foliage will flag so it is better t avoid afternoon sun in hot summer regions. Containers are 12 in in diameter and 16 in deep and they thrive with the extra root run. They do not like to be cold and wet and a rot set in at the base of the basal plate from these conditions. Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ From arnold@nj.rr.com Tue Jul 12 13:34:07 2005 Message-Id: <42D3FEAA.5080506@nj.rr.com> From: arnold trachtenberg Subject: eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:32:26 -0400 Alberto: You have also confirmed that what I was doing was totally wrong. I have them in shallow pots 4 to 6 inches and planted much to shallow. It is nice to know that we have a well of knowledge here that one can dip into on occassion and come out with a drink. Arnold From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue Jul 12 14:16:59 2005 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:40:57 -0500 Dear Arnold; 2 falls ago I planted E. bicolor outdoors and shallowly. I thought they had turned to mush that spring, but foliage slowly emerged. This spring foliage came up strongly so I suspect they have pulled themselves down and will hopefully bloom this fall. This in a raised bed with NO WINTER PROTECTION. So my suggestion for your mild climate is to try a few more outdoors and plant them deeply as Jane suggested. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 12 14:43:57 2005 Message-Id: <42D40C2A.2717A7A1@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:30:02 -0700 Dear All: In several postings lately, mention has been made of bulbs "pulling themselves down". Seedlings will drop a root deeper into the soil and a bulb is formed at this new depth. Contractile roots are another character of certain bulbs. But do all bulbs lower themselves with such methods? Apparently such is not always the case, as mention has been made of bulbs, (Eucomis as an example) being planted not deeply enough, and it would seem they stay at the depth planted. Comments would be welcome. Cheers, John E. Bryan. From arnold@nj.rr.com Tue Jul 12 14:46:40 2005 Message-Id: <42D40FA2.3080108@nj.rr.com> From: arnold trachtenberg Subject: eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:44:50 -0400 James: I also planted the E. bicolor outdoors and it came up very late. It may need more sunshine to thrive. The foliage looks strong, though. Arnold From arnold@nj.rr.com Tue Jul 12 14:49:53 2005 Message-Id: <42D4106C.7080702@nj.rr.com> From: arnold trachtenberg Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:48:12 -0400 John: I think that the movement of a bulb in the ground can be viewed very differently than a bulb potted . I can't say what the motivation (tropism) is behind the movement. It may be the bulbs desire to get away from the heat of the sun or pulling itself deeper to get more water. Arnold From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 12 15:08:22 2005 Message-Id: <42D411E2.8957C8BF@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:54:26 -0700 Thanks Arnold: As always from you, an interesting posting. The question is how do the bulbs get down to the lower depth, by what method, if in search of moisture, nutrients etc.. Cheers, John e. Bryan arnold trachtenberg wrote: > > John: > > I think that the movement of a bulb in the ground can be viewed very > differently than a bulb potted . I can't say what the motivation > (tropism) is behind the movement. It may be the bulbs desire to get > away from the heat of the sun or pulling itself deeper to get more water. > > Arnold > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From totototo@pacificcoast.net Tue Jul 12 14:52:30 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Nomenclature: a long quibble Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:04:41 -0700 On 11 Jul 05 at 20:57, Jim McKenney wrote: > John Bryan said: "The exception being when the name ends in > 'a' when an e is added, thus balansae from Balansa." > > > Actually, what is being added in this instance is not an -e > but rather the letter combination ae. And it's being added to > the stem Balans- . The ae is the feminine singular genitive > form. More about this below; it gets more and more curious. > John has quoted the rule as it applies to specific epithets; > for generic names, one adds -ea to words which end in -a to > form a generic name. The name John used, balansae, is (or can > be) a specific epithet, but not properly a generic name. > > There are two aspects of this rule (actually it is > Recommendation 60B) which are bizarre in my opinion. > > Let's get the easier one out of the way first. In the example > used above, based on the name of the French botanist Benjamin > (Benedict) Balansa, (do I need to say a male person?) the > botanical names (both the generic name and the specific name) > are feminine. In other words, the rules treat names ending in > -a as feminine words. Never mind that in their language of > origin there might not be any such gender implications. Since > the name in question is a French name, and French does make > such gender distinctions, enough said about this one. Not quite so fast there, Mr. McKenney! This rule treats names ending in -a as being in the first declension. Now it's certainly true that the vast majority of words in the first declension are feminine, but a few are not. [Unless, that is, my memory is even more like swiss cheese than I think it is and I'm confusing which declension has which aberration. Don't have a Latin grammar at hand to be absolutely sure. Must remember to order a copy of Bennett's New Latin Grammar via Alibris.] A pet beef of mine is that the code for horticultural nomenclature stipulates that multi-word cultivar names should end with a noun. Small problem: in many languages, the substantive precedes the adjectival material. In other languages, the definition of noun is extremely different from the usual Indo-European form that this recommendation becomes almost meaningless -- in some cases, I believe it's pretty hard to decide if it's a verb or a noun you're looking at because the Latin-Greek based nomenclature for parts of speech just doesn't fit the paradigms of languages in other families. Some PacNW coast aboriginal languages form single words out of many chunks with the result that the single word contains a great deal more meaning than the narrower form of the Indo-European verb. All this makes hash of the recommendation "noun last". And it also runs afoul of the English language feature that almost any part of speech can be used as a substantive. Does that make it a noun in the sense of the recommendation? If I name a new crocosmia "Hot Sweaty Run" is the name valid or not? -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From dells@voicenet.com Tue Jul 12 15:06:28 2005 Message-Id: <20050712190628.4512D4C006@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:06:26 -0400 For what it's worth, here in Zone 6, I have noticed, in keeping with Jim's Waddick's recommendations, that crinums, eg C. xpowellii and 'Carolina Beauty' survive our winters only if they are planted very deeply - 12-15 inches. I guess that they are not able to "pull themselves down" to avoid the cold. X powellii has seven scapes in bloom right now. Dell From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Tue Jul 12 15:16:07 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050712211520.01ea78c8@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Nomenclature Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:15:52 +0200 At 18:46 11-07-2005, Jim McKenney wrote: >In my first response to this issue, please read aesculifolius for >aesculiflius. Don't worry, I think we all knew what you meant! Carol From hornig@usadatanet.net Tue Jul 12 15:23:23 2005 Message-Id: <380-220057212192316801@M2W073.mail2web.com> From: "hornig@usadatanet.net" Subject: eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:23:16 -0400 I've had E. bicolor in the ground here for years - just barely under the surface - and not only does it grow and bloom, it has actually self-sown a little. I've had to dig out clumps of inferior forms of E. autumnalis because the bulbs multiply so fast (but have small inflorescences, and not many of those). Some of these are pretty tough plants! Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials Oswego NY USA Zone 5, with excellent snow cover Original Message: ----------------- From: James Waddick jwaddick@kc.rr.com Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:40:57 -0500 To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [pbs] eucomis Dear Arnold; 2 falls ago I planted E. bicolor outdoors and shallowly. I thought they had turned to mush that spring, but foliage slowly emerged. This spring foliage came up strongly so I suspect they have pulled themselves down and will hopefully bloom this fall. This in a raised bed with NO WINTER PROTECTION. So my suggestion for your mild climate is to try a few more outdoors and plant them deeply as Jane suggested. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From john@johnlonsdale.net Tue Jul 12 15:24:31 2005 Message-Id: <20050712192431.52A704C00B@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "John Lonsdale" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:24:28 -0400 Generally it is seedling bulbs that make contractile roots (or use other mechanisms) to pull themselves down to some predefined correct depth whilst they mature. They expend considerable energy doing this, hence the now proven hypothesis that sowing seeds like crocus at a couple of inches deep gets them to flowering size a year earlier than if surface sown. If you plant a mature bulb at the wrong depth then it is pretty well stuck - no amount of grunting and groaning is going to get it down to its desired level. Seedling bulbs do this whether potted or in the ground, as long as they have the capability to start with. John John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Tue Jul 12 15:36:44 2005 Message-Id: <002d01c58718$f49f1b80$96095351@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: usda Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:36:10 +0200 Hello, The Usda are they the same as in Europe?I live in usda 7, that can be -17dgr. Bey Marie-Paule From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 12 15:56:15 2005 Message-Id: <42D41D1B.7E1C8AA1@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: usda Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:42:19 -0700 Dear Marie-Paule: The answer is yes. In the back of Timber Press Pocket Guide to Bulbs, there is an European Hardiness Zone map which uses the USDA ranges for the zones. I am now aware of an European Zone Map published by an European country, but presume there must be one. Cheers, John E. Bryan Marie-Paule wrote: > > Hello, > The Usda are they the same as in Europe?I live in usda 7, that can be -17dgr. > Bey Marie-Paule > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Tue Jul 12 15:47:03 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050712214323.01e98ec0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Oxalis adenophylla, O. enneaphylla on the east coast Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:46:42 +0200 At 10:09 11-07-2005, Andrew Broome wrote: >Jim said... > > > Has anyone out there who gardens on the east coast of North > > America had long term success with either Oxalis adenophylla > > or O. enneaphylla as garden plants? > >I've had no long term success with any of the 'alpine' South American >species even here in my part of NZ where it rarely gets near 30C in the >summer and only a few frosts per winter. They certainly don't like the heat. > >You *might* try the hybrid, Ox. x 'Ione Hecker' since this *seems* a >little more tolerant at least the one clone I've kept alive for nearly 2 >years now after several attempts. > >They're such attractive plants, I wish I could keep them alive but I've >pretty much given up on trying them here under my conditions. > >Andrew. http://freewebtown.com/oxalis/ > I wonder if people with too hot summers might not grow such plants indoors, just as people with too cold winters grow other plants indoors (me, for instance.) I say this, and yet my livingroom has a horrible temperature these days, now over 29C! It's because the house is built of limestone bricks which accumulate heat and don't release it very readily. When I wake up in the morning or in the middle of the night, the temperature is over 27C. However most Americans have air conditioning and these heat-abhorring plants might do very well inside. Carol From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 12 15:51:38 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1qdm0v@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: usda Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:51:36 -0400 Minus seventeen degrees C corresponds approximately to 0 degrees F; that would put you in USDA zone 7, generally cited as minimum temperature 0 degrees F to +10 degrees F. If your winter temperatures regularly drop to minus seventeen degrees, it makes better sense to consider your site a zone 6 site. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where temperatures as low as 0 F or minus seventeen C are fortunately experienced only once in many years. From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 12 15:56:07 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1qdoj4@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Oxalis adenophylla, O. enneaphylla on the east coast Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:56:05 -0400 Carol, you know how we gardeners are: our houses are already stuffed with plants. During the winter especially, my bedroom is thick with plants, our refrigerators periodically get pulled into service for plant storage, the basement floor is covered with plants, the living room has extra plants hanging off all the tables. I'm trying to get them outside so I can have room for my other interests inside! Only two weeks ago I brought inside the pots of seedling western American lilies in hopes of keeping them alive through the summer. I need another house just for plants! Jim McKenney From ang.por@alice.it Tue Jul 12 16:18:47 2005 Message-Id: <004901c5871e$fddfd300$e6283352@t7t2y7> From: "Angelo Porcelli" Subject: Eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:19:21 +0200 I have had also the same problem as Arnold mentioned, that is floppy leaves on pole evansii grown in rather small pots. Now they are in the ground and bigger pots and have all upright huge leaves. BTW anyone know (Tony Avent are you there??) if Eucomis 'Burgundy Sparkling' come true from seed? Angelo Porcelli Italy From johngrimshaw@tiscali.co.uk Tue Jul 12 16:38:24 2005 Message-Id: <000001c58721$a3beace0$64d8403e@John> From: Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:23:12 +0100 John Lonsdale wrote: If you plant a mature bulb at the wrong depth then it is pretty well stuck - no > amount of grunting and groaning is going to get it down to its desired > level. This is not universally true: snowdrops sometimes produce a 'dropper' and form their new bulb at a lower level than the old one, and tulips often do so. Mature Crocus can also form contractile roots that pull the corm deeper into the (loose) soil. But I agree that most mature bulbs can only stay where they are put. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Garden Manager, Colesbourne Gardens Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk > From dells@voicenet.com Tue Jul 12 16:34:16 2005 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific Bx 95 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:34:13 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 95" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: . Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER.. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Jim Waddick: Seed of Crinum bulbispermum 'Jumbo' " I obtained the original seed from Marcelle Sheppard a few years ago. They have grown into large hardy perennials here in Zone 5b. Plants have glaucous leaves over 6 ft long and scape to about 3 ft. I believe Ms. Sheppard named these 'Jumbo', but they are identical or close to the 'Sacremento' seed strain developed by Les Hannibal. They have wintered over here with very little protection. They make excellent garden specimens These tend to be solitary plants producing very few or no pups so must be propagated by seed which are very easy. These large seed will geminate quickly. My procedure is to press the seed into a loose soilless mixture in pots sitting in shallow water. Seeds will germinate quickly, but seedlings need some protection here their first winter. Flowers are near pure-white to deep pink/red. 1. Mixed flowered types of all colors 2. Selected red/pink, but these are open pollinated so no color assurance. From Shirley Meneice: 3. Bulbils of Ixia, dark red or white (mixed) From Brook Klehm: SEED: 4. Anomatheca laxa, white and red 5. Anomatheca laxa, blue 6. Anomatheca laxa, carmine and red 7. Allium dichlamydium From Phyllis Ferguson and Cathy Craig: BULBS/CORMS: 8. Watsonia glabbra? 9. Watsonia mixed 10. Watsonia humilis 11. Ixia mixed 12. Crocus 'Ruby Giant' 13. Crocus cv ? 14. Crocus 'Garden of Hope' (this seems to be a great increaser and may be a selection of C. tommasinianus) 15. Tulipa cv? 16. Tulipa 'Golden Parade' 17. Tulipa 'Little Princess' 18. Tulipa 'Bright Gem' 19. miniature Dutch Iris (dark purple, very pretty) 20. Mystery bulbs, hyacinth or muscari 21. Mystery bulbs/corms - who knows what!? Thank you, Jim, Shirley, Brook, Phyllis, and Cathy !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 12 16:41:40 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1qeara@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Nomenclature: a long quibble Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:41:39 -0400 Roger is right about those words being treated as first declension words, almost all of which (but not all) are feminine in gender. Whereas a betting man might profit by assuming that all first declension words are feminine, I obviously lost that bet! Latin, of course, by and large observes a system of "natural" gender: boys are boys and girls are girls regardless of declension assignment. Mons Balansa's gender is no longer in question. I set myself up for that one because although I've known the word balansae (from Crocus balansae) for decades, I had always assumed it referred to a woman. It was only when I composed that post that I took the time to look the name up - and I was momentarily disconcerted to discover that it was the name of a man! I was like the tourist who, seeing the names on the restrooms (Damen and Herren) came to an unfortunate conclusion in deciphering them as Damen=Da Men=the men and Herren= Hers and barged right in. Luckily for me, email does not convey the squeals of outrage over my oversight. Jim McKenney From toadlily@olywa.net Tue Jul 12 16:35:24 2005 Message-Id: <42D42C79.9070206@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:47:53 -0700 There is another mechanism that is much more apparent in ground planted bulbs than potted ones, although the longer the bulb is in the pot, the more it becomes a factor. This is simply the breakdown and disappearance of the oldest organic components of the soil, usually at the bottom of the organic layer(s). The bulb naturally settles, and is buried deeper by the seasonal leaf and litter drop (or mulch). I've noticed this in action here in the northwest in Trillium, Erythronium, Lilium and many others. I would suspect this to be the major factor in most of those cases where the bulb is found sitting on the top of the first layer of soil devoid of organic matter. Of course there are short cuts that the plants take; just as John described, I've had Camassia seedlings form a new bulb three inches below the old one. Dave Brastow From tony@plantdelights.com Tue Jul 12 18:09:23 2005 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20050712180920.0143bfd0@66.39.59.108> From: Tony Avent Subject: Eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:09:20 -0400 Angelo: If you grow Eucomis 'Sparkling Burgundy' from seed you will get purple offspring, but since we introduced it 24 years ago, we have never had any seedlings as dark as the original. I'll add to the note about floppiness, I attribute most of this to a lack of air movement. Without good air movement, the cell walls of the plant become weak and cause the leaves to flop. It's a very common practice in commercial greenhouses to increase the air flow to increase turgidity of the stems. At 10:19 PM 7/12/2005 +0200, you wrote: >I have had also the same problem as Arnold mentioned, that is floppy leaves on pole evansii grown in rather small pots. Now they are in the ground and bigger pots and have all upright huge leaves. >BTW anyone know (Tony Avent are you there??) if Eucomis 'Burgundy Sparkling' come true from seed? > >Angelo Porcelli >Italy > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, NC 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdel.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent From kellyo@wetrock.com Tue Jul 12 18:24:47 2005 Message-Id: <42D3E226.15684.36ABC11@localhost> From: "Kelly O'Neill" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:30:46 -0700 >If you plant a mature bulb at the wrong depth then > it is pretty well stuck I bet that is true for the mature bulb itself. I think, however, they may be able to use their energy to "get" where they need to be without moving. Yes, I was at the Oregon Country Fair (a place where hallucinagenic drugs are supposedly common) all weekend. But no, I'm not talking about warping time and space for an "out of body" experience. I think some bulb "movements" are made using processes other than contractile roots. It may not be correct to call some of these "pulling down". As usual, I am speculating. I think some bulbs can fatten a root at a lower level to "create" a bulb deeper. Freeze damage at the surface might necessitate (or at least encourage) this. I know Glad's form on top of old bulbs and "rise" to the surface. I'd guess some kinds of bulbs form at the bottom of the old bulb and tend to sink lower each generation? I bet there are other ways to "get down" also :-). Why they sink lower has interested me as well. Camassia seem to dive down in pots aggressively. Since they are a wetlander, I was thinking they were trying to get wetter (rather than protect themselves from freezing)? Kelly O'Neill Wet Rock Gardens Flower Farm U-Pick and more at the farm (open 9 to 6, Sun, Wed and Fri - from March thru Halloween): 2877 N 19th Street Springfield, Oregon 97477 To contact us: * Business Office for mail or by appointment only: gardens@wetrock.com * 1950 Yolanda AVE http://www.wetrock.com * Springfield, Oregon 97477 (541) 746-4444 * From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 20:05:35 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:05:33 +0000 Hi: What an interesting topic. Some comments. Let's assume we are all speaking of a well drained mix, otherwise our respective results will be disparate. What adult bulbs seek by going deeper is the right soil temperature to incubate the flower buds, hence some are programmed to go very deep and others do quite shallowly (IN THE WILD). Inmature bulbs will go deep looking for protection and "maturity" is thus obtained (we can speed it up by replanting them deeper every year). The absurd advice of sowing seed very deep will not doubt dispatch scores of seed packets except in the hands of the experts. You do not need to be Norm Deno to know that the main ingredient for seed "resurrection" is oxygen. Sow deep and when the soil gets really wet the seed is rotten for good. Here there is a clear confusion between the fact that seedlings become more and more robust as they go deeper and depth of sowing. Step one, sow shallowly in a porous mix, step two, repot seedlings deeper every year. Much as my respect and admiration for Peter reaches the heavens, another absurd advice is given in "The Color Encyclopedia.....". In it you can read that if you have no idea of how deep a bulb or corm must be planted you must do it shallowly and count with the plant going deeper by itself. It will probably do but plants can not walk, the amount of effort and the waste of energy will be tremendous. In fact, when one repots one's bulbs I have found they resent very much being brought shallower: by using a twig or better a ruler one can be certain they are at the same level or deeper. This is obvious when you do not repot frequently: all will eventually be found deeper. Again,a porous mix will allow for an easier vertical movement. Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From john@floralarchitecture.com Tue Jul 12 20:10:31 2005 Message-Id: <20050713001027.93534.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> From: Floral Architecture Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:10:26 -0700 (PDT) There are cases of other plants that will pull themselves down. I know the Australian cycad Macrozamia will reach maturity with 4' long leaves and never produce a stem because it is growing deeper and deeper into the ground each year. I have been to to prevent this and to get a tall stem on the plant to place a piece of flagstone, concrete or other large solid object under the plant before planting. I have noticed quite large roots (contractile as describd by Alberto) on seedlings of Herbertia and Gelasine spp. I have just transplanted these seedlings (2 years old now) and those roots are gone in the pots. I planted the same spp. in the open ground and will do a little digging around to see if they are still at the 2" depth I planted them (with contractile roots) or if they are much deeper now. John Ingram in L.A., CA. www.floralarchitecture.com "Your Clivia Connection" john@floralarchitecture.com 310.709.1613 (cell, west coast time, please call accordingly. Thank you) From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 20:11:16 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Global warming? No way! Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:11:14 +0000 Maximum temperature for Oslo 30 C/ 86 F _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From john@floralarchitecture.com Tue Jul 12 20:25:19 2005 Message-Id: <20050713002518.99535.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> From: Floral Architecture Subject: Eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT) I have a two pots of E. 'First Red' that I got from Dave Fenwick. They are still small bulbs from leaf cuttings. I can never give them enough water in the summer. They usually are forced into an early dormancy each summer. I wish I would get them to some size as I love them. I have tried Eucomis once in Ohio as a garden subject but I think I put it in an area with too much competition from the ground cover. I would love to be able to get large bulbs that can over winter there. How do they do with shade? John Ingram in L.A., CA. www.floralarchitecture.com "Your Clivia Connection" john@floralarchitecture.com 310.709.1613 (cell, west coast time, please call accordingly. Thank you) From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 12 20:39:29 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1n9m8b@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:39:28 -0400 I'll join the fray on this one. Put me solidly on the team which is very skeptical about adult bulbs pulling themselves down. Anyone who has raised a pot of crocus seedlings has probably seen the one, long, thick, wrinkled root which sometimes forms right under the new corm. In this case, the pulling down is plausible because the root is as thick (wide) as the corm itself: as the root contracts, the corm is drawn into the space left by the shriveling root. With mature bulbs I don't see how this can happen. For one thing, there are multiple roots pulling in different directions. For another, none of the roots is large enough to form a cavity to receive the adult bulb. I doubt that I could push a mature bulb down into the ground without mashing it. The physics of the purported event is against it. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the only pulling down of bulbs which occurs regularly here is that done by voles! From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Tue Jul 12 20:53:18 2005 Message-Id: <001201c58745$41c63890$8da879a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:53:15 -0700 I too will join the fray. I planted my first mature Veltheimia capensis bulbs with half of the bulb exposed when I lived in a very hot climate with summer temps over 100F for three months. By the end of the summer you couldn't see any of the bulbs. How? I don't know, but I don't think the physics is against it. If you tried to punch through asphalt with a shoot of a plant you couldn't do it, but plants frequently are able to do this amazing feat. Taking a bulb and pushing it into soil is very different from a bulb pulling itself deeper. I am sure there's someone who knows all about the physics of hydrostatic pressure, which has something to do with this. Diana Telos From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 12 21:04:16 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1n9ui8@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:04:14 -0400 I'm fascinated by all of these Eucomis stories. I've never been able to keep Eucomis alive outside for more than a few years. Even in relatively protected sites here the spring comes when they do not reappear. I'm convinced that when I was younger the winters were colder. You young 'ins don't remember the blizzard of '59 when I had to trudge through six foot snow banks to get to school and the creek froze... Oops! That's another story. Maybe I should try again. That Ellen in Oswego of all places is able to grow these outside just baffles me. Here, even against a wall they eventually disappear. I wish someone would post a photo of a mature blooming Eucomis pole-evansii to the wiki. I have grown this plant for years as a pot plant and it has yet to bloom. How tall is it when it blooms? Old accounts say six feet (Col. Grey: "over seventy inches"). That I would like to see! And the stories of the floppy inflorescence sometimes seen in these plants: years ago I received some huge bulbs which were supposed to be Eu. Pole-evansii; when they bloomed, they had purple-pink flowers. They were enormous: each inflorescence must have weighed a pound or two and was as big as a base-ball bat. They were so big that they could not support themselves and flopped badly. They reminded me of huge corn-dogs (for those of you not deeply into the more refined aspects of American cuisine, corn-dogs are hot dogs - frankfurter sausages - coated in corn meal batter, fried, and served on a stick). Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the spiffy hair-do plant has so far refused to persist in my garden in any of its several forms. From paige@hillkeep.ca Tue Jul 12 21:22:03 2005 Message-Id: <01cf01c58749$472c5fe0$1f8157d1@m6u3j5> From: "Pacific Rim" Subject: Fw: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:21:52 -0700 I'm with Diana here. I tuned in late, went back and am amazed to find that some astute growers don't think bulbs can pull themselves down. Maybe our conditions are very different! What's needed here, perhaps, is a very, very slow-motion video showing how contractile roots and next-year corms can move ever downward. I have no idea how they do it. But it's easier to observe in pots than in the ground. I have repeatedly planted bulbs at midpoint in a deep pot, only to find them clinging to the very bottom when I turn them out. I don't say it happens with every bulb. But there are many examples in Lilium. Take, from three very different groups, L. columbianum. L. canadense and L. nepalense. Then there is Calochortus. No matter where I plant it, or sow it, if it lives, after a couple of years it is at the bottom of the pot. It can also survive in a shallow pot, if mulched, but it always goes to the bottom, no matter where that is. The same is true of Fritillaria, bulbous Iris, dryland Allium, and many Crocus. Paige Woodward paige@hillkeep.ca www.hillkeep.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "diana chapman" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Pulling down to correct level >I too will join the fray. > > I planted my first mature Veltheimia capensis bulbs with half of the bulb > exposed when I lived in a very hot climate with summer temps over 100F for > three months. By the end of the summer you couldn't see any of the bulbs. > How? I don't know, but I don't think the physics is against it. If you > tried to punch through asphalt with a shoot of a plant you couldn't do it, > but plants frequently are able to do this amazing feat. Taking a bulb and > pushing it into soil is very different from a bulb pulling itself deeper. > I > am sure there's someone who knows all about the physics of hydrostatic > pressure, which has something to do with this. > > Diana > Telos > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 21:23:51 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 01:22:22 +0000 Hi: Wow! This is gathering momentum. Jim, you are right that it is against common sense that a bulb or corm could bury itself deeper yet they do, did and will probably keep on doing until they become extinct. MOIST soil is soft enough to let a powerful contractile root drag the bulb down. Contractile roots are broad, tapering, wrinkled looking and very distinct of the rather cylindrical fine absorbent roots and are capable of incredible effort. Almost every one in the forum will let you know of cases in which a bulb was thought to be gone only to find that the plant sprouts happily in due course. Eyrthroniums, Rhodophialas, Sternbergias and scores of others are capable of reaching depths incredible to bulb survival (in our opinion, the bulb thinks otherwise!). Best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 12 21:27:38 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1na774@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: depth of seed planting Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:27:35 -0400 Evidently there is a wide range of opinion within the group on this topic - well, on consideration, maybe I should say all of these topics. Surface sowing has been mentioned; no one has suggested how deep is too deep. I now routinely sow bulb seeds about an inch deep. With seeds which germinate in hypogeal fashion, this definitely seems to be the way to go. Even with seeds which germinate in epigeal fashion, one inch causes no problems which I can detect as long as the medium is not hard and compact. Surface sowing on the other hand sometimes results in roots which seem unable to get a grip on the soil: they push the seed coat along as the root lengthens, but take a long time to enter the soil. Since our concept of bulb covers a lot of ground, I guess I should say that I certainly don't recommend sowing seed of bulbs such as gesneriads one inch deep. But seeds of lilies, crocus, tulips, frits, irises, tigridias, hyacinths and so on seem to do just fine when sown one inch deep. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where seed of petunias, begonias, gloxinias, poppies and tobacco sown one inch deep don't have a chance. From internalchanges@yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 21:30:20 2005 Message-Id: <20050713013019.63818.qmail@web33613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Brian Charles Subject: Seed Exchange Request Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Dear Members of the Pacific Bulb Exchange, July 12, 2005 My name is Brian Charles, and I am very interested in attempting to make interspecific hybridizations between the Amaryllis, Hippeastrum, and Crinum genera in order to breed new flower varieties. I am interested in both the tropical and xerophytic forms of these flowers. What other genera do you think that could also be hybridized with the above listed three? Do you think that they could they be hybridized with Hymenocallis, Hesperantha, and Hesperocallis? I am requesting that anyone with extra seed please send me some packets of any varieties, species, and hybrids of Amaryllis, Hippeastrum, and Crinum. In exchange, if you want (please specify species desired) I can send to you in return seeds of these available flowering bulbs: Lilium amabile var luteum, Lilium concolor var. strictum, Lilium formosanum, Lilium Martagon, Lilium Martagon album, Lilium pardalinum, Lilium pumilum, Lilium regale, and Lilium rubescens. Tulipa pulchella, Tulipa Sprengeri Colchicum autumnale Muscari caucasicum Thank you for your assistance with my request. Please send your seed to me at: Brian Charles General Delivery Kailua, HI 96734 --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 12 21:46:36 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1nadb0@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:46:35 -0400 Maybe we don't disagree as much as it seems on this issue. In Paige's post, she mentioned several bulbs which, in my experience, certainly do end up deeper year after year. But they are not pulling themselves down. They are growing deeper year by year. I think there is a difference to be observed here. The lilies which Paige mentioned do not pull themselves down. Their bulbs are on a short rhizome which can grow downward yearly. That is not pulling themselves down in my book. Many bulbs do grow downward. If you dig them at the right time of year, you will see the growth emerging form the existing bulb and heading downward. That is one thing, and yes, it happens all the time. Part of the answer here may be related to the fact that the structure we call a bulb is, in many taxa, of annual duration. The bulb that you dig in the summer is not the one you planted in the fall. So in the cases of taxa which have bulbs of annual duration, it makes no sense at all to speak of the bulbs pulling themselves down. You may find bulbs deeper than the ones you planted, but they are not the bulbs you planted! But are mature bulbs ever pulled downward by their roots? I'm still not convinced. What happens to the soil beneath the bulb? Does it squish out sideways to make room for the bulb? You are asking me to believe that, on the one had, the soil is moist enough to allow a broad object such as a bulb to be pulled downwards by root contraction as the moist soil is displaced, yet on the other hand, that that same soil is firm enough to allow the contracting roots to keep a grip on the soil? Why don't the roots themselves pull out? As Alberto said, it is against common sense. Of course, that does not mean that it does not happen. But I'm not yet convinced. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where this would not be the first time that common sense got me into trouble. From bklehm@comcast.net Tue Jul 12 22:04:20 2005 Message-Id: <6fba15751745a04f21b4d3a71cecbf64@comcast.net> From: Brook Klehm Subject: Eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:04:17 -0700 There are several intriguing aspects to the various posts on this subject. Leaf cuttings? I had no idea that Eucomis could be propagated this way and would love to hear more about the procedure and success rate. Sorry to hear about your trudging through snow six feet deep to get to the one room school house with its pot-bellied stove, Jim. I'm certain the schoolmarm appreciated your ernest study of latin, however. I, too, would love to see pictures of E. pole-evansii plant in bloom. I have a bulb which has faithfully produced healthy foliage for three seasons now, but never a spike. I presumed it got too dry in this Mediterranean climate and went dormant too soon to bloom. Eucomis bulbs are regularly available from garden centers here in northern California. I purchased one years ago and have enjoyed it blooming, first in a container for six years and then in the ground for the last two. I believe what I have is E. comosa, since its ovaries are purple tinged. It has never been as upright as the photo on the wiki shows, however. It flowers well each year and sets copious seed. Seedlings have begun to appear since it was planted into the open garden. I have capable horticultural friends who have never been able to keep a Eucomis alive, whether in a pot or in the ground, while the E. comosa here is a bit of a weed. And what about E. zambesiaca? Has anyone any experience with it? I have had a plant in the ground for two years now, after being in a pot for one season. It continues to produce foliage, but no blooms yet (over-fertilization can't be the problem, as it has received little). I look forward to hearing more personal experiences with Eucomis. Brook Klehm Sebastopol, California cool side of USDA 9 From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 22:13:49 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:13:48 +0000 Hi: But Jim, true bulbs are NOT renewed every year, in fact they are never renewed. Those in most families will only grow fatter each year until they die. It is corms that are renewed during each growing season (with very few exceptions, like Ferraria). All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 12 22:17:55 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1naou4@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Eucomis Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:17:55 -0400 Brook asked: " And what about E. zambesiaca?" I grew a plant under this name for many years as a pot plant. It was a small Eucomis, not more than a foot high and with proportionally short leaves. It gave no trouble here as a pot plant kept dry during the winter. I have no idea whether the plant was true to name, however. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the school marm, pot bellied stove and Latin were not the worst of it; it was those quill pens which kept cracking. From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Tue Jul 12 22:21:49 2005 Message-Id: <002401c58751$9f30e690$8da879a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:21:43 -0700 Maybe the focus is too much on the bulb. Soil, after all, is not a static uniform medium, but a dynamic entity full of microorganism and insects that is actually moving around. When you flood a pot with a bulb in it the soil particles sort of float, until the excess moisture flows through the medium and starts flowing out of the holes of the pot, when the soil medium settles down again. So maybe the soil in a pot is moving up, as well as the bulb moving down. Calochortus, as Paige pointed out always end up at the bottom of the pot no matter what. They are true bulbs and the bulb you see is the bulb you saw last year - sort of. Of course it has added mass, and, yes, I agree, it can grow downwards, but they also have thick roots that look like retractile roots when they are in full growth before flowering. It's too simplistic to think of a bulb as a globular object on a string that is being pulled through a dense uniform medium. The medium must play a role - after all we all know that rocks move up through soil and there isn't anything pulling or pushing them! Diana Telos From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 12 22:51:11 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1nb32e@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:51:10 -0400 Alberto, I respectfully and vigorously disagree with your statement that true bulbs are never renewed. Yes, there are many true bulbs (especially members of the Amaryllidaceae) which seem to persist indefinitely. Whether or not that is true or not depends on how one defines bulb. When I say bulb, I mean that structure which consists of a basal plate, an embryonic sprout/bud, and the attached storage scales (which are modified leaves) surrounding the bud. Of those three basic elements, only part of the basal plate persists from year to year. The sprout is always of annual duration in north temperate bulbs and its surrounding storage scales are generally of annual duration. That's why I said that the tulip bulb you plant in the fall is not the same one you dig in the summer: of the three basic elements described above, only some the basal plate persists from year to year. Most of the tissue which made up the bulb which you planted is gone at the end of the growing season. With amaryllids, it's not so obvious, but the bulb (bud + scales + basal plate) is not persistent. It is constantly being replaced by another bulb (or several bulbs). Because the new bulb forms inside the old one, it superficially looks as if the original bulb persists. The sprout on all bulbs I know sprouts only once. After that, it is replaced by another sprout on the same basal plate. That new sprout has its own surrounding storage scales, sometimes supplemented by scales surviving from the old bulb. But the sprout is always a new one. And as the old sprout dies, the axis of annual growth shifts to the axis of the new sprout. And around that axis are arrayed the elements which make up the new bulb. From the outside, it looks like the same old bulb. But on the inside, the old bulb has disappeared and been replaced by a new one. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I've been sitting here typing for so long that I'm beginning to think of my bottom as my basal plate. -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Alberto Castillo Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 10:14 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [pbs] Pulling down to correct level Hi: But Jim, true bulbs are NOT renewed every year, in fact they are never renewed. Those in most families will only grow fatter each year until they die. It is corms that are renewed during each growing season (with very few exceptions, like Ferraria). All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From kellyo@wetrock.com Tue Jul 12 23:40:09 2005 Message-Id: <42D42C19.20624.48B991A@localhost> From: "Kelly O'Neill" Subject: Pacific Bx 95 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:46:17 -0700 Hi Dell, I'd like: 3. Bulbils of Ixia, dark red or white (mixed) 5. Anomatheca laxa, blue 7. Allium dichlamydium 8. Watsonia glabbra? 9. Watsonia mixed 10. Watsonia humilis 11. Ixia mixed 14. Crocus 'Garden of Hope' 15. Tulipa cv? 16. Tulipa 'Golden Parade' 17. Tulipa 'Little Princess' 18. Tulipa 'Bright Gem' 19. miniature Dutch Iris (dark purple, very pretty) Thanks so much, KellyO Kelly O'Neill Wet Rock Gardens Flower Farm U-Pick and more at the farm (open 9 to 6, Sun, Wed and Fri - from March thru Halloween): 2877 N 19th Street Springfield, Oregon 97477 To contact us: * Business Office for mail or by appointment only: gardens@wetrock.com * 1950 Yolanda AVE http://www.wetrock.com * Springfield, Oregon 97477 (541) 746-4444 * From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Wed Jul 13 03:10:43 2005 Message-Id: <004a01c58779$e934ee80$96095351@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: Usda Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:10:12 +0200 Hello, No, the temperature not always drop to minus 17dgr.C.The temperature is mostly between -6 and -13.but it not always freezes. Thank You for the information, Marie-Paule From khixson@nu-world.com Wed Jul 13 03:32:19 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050713002750.026856b0@mail.nu-world.com> From: Kenneth Hixson Subject: USDA Hardiness Zones Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:32:02 -0700 Bey Marie-Paule If you want european (or asian, or south african, whatever) go to a search engine such as www.google.com, and type in something like european hardiness zone maps. You should come up with several references. One I just checked was www.aroid.org/horticulture/zonemap/europe.html Hope this helps Ken From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Wed Jul 13 03:43:22 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050713094117.01e9f9f0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: usda Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:42:57 +0200 At 21:36 12-07-2005, Marie-Paule wrote: >Hello, >The Usda are they the same as in Europe?I live in usda 7, that can be -17dgr. >Bey Marie-Paule >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ¨ I would imagine so. I have frozen ground in January and February - would that be USDA 5? Summer high is about 32C but 25C is more common. Carol, Denmark From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Wed Jul 13 03:46:16 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050713094441.01eb9b50@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Oxalis adenophylla, O. enneaphylla on the east coast Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:46:02 +0200 At 21:56 12-07-2005, Jim McKenney wrote: >Carol, you know how we gardeners are: our houses are already stuffed with >plants. During the winter especially, my bedroom is thick with plants, our >refrigerators periodically get pulled into service for plant storage, the >basement floor is covered with plants, the living room has extra plants >hanging off all the tables. > >I'm trying to get them outside so I can have room for my other interests >inside! > >Only two weeks ago I brought inside the pots of seedling western American >lilies in hopes of keeping them alive through the summer. > >I need another house just for plants! > >Jim McKenney I'm about the same, and that is bad news when moving to Copenhagen where an extra room costs more than I want to pay. Still, it's the only way to grow many plants when it freezes in winter. Carol From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Wed Jul 13 04:07:51 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050713100407.01f99ec0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:07:32 +0200 At 02:39 13-07-2005, Jim McKenney wrote: >I'll join the fray on this one. > >Put me solidly on the team which is very skeptical about adult bulbs pulling >themselves down. > >Jim McKenney >Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the only pulling down >of bulbs which occurs regularly here is that done by voles! I am forever disturbing tulips in early spring when I get rid of large weeds (including maple trees!). The bulbs may lie on their sides after I'm finished and I may be too lazy to push them down into the soil. The roots grow long and reach ground, the bulb gets pulled around upright and gets enough nourishment to blossom normally. Later in the summer I don't see it any more (but that could be because other flowers cover the tulips!). This one tulip action is one I have seen almost every year. Carol From john@crellin.org.uk Wed Jul 13 04:21:37 2005 Message-Id: From: "JohnCrellin" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:21:36 +0100 I hope I haven't missed someone else saying this but I think Diana is hinting at a view I have for many bulbs observed in the wild. Don't forget earthworms etc - if a bulb holds it self fast by it's roots and even pulls a bit - as some clearly do - then, as the burrowers works around, it will tend to collapse the tunnels under itself and soil will be moved in above as the various creatures go about their business. I am sure this is something the wildlife time-lapse experts could - maybe have - capture. Then, for woodland bulbs at least, and to some extent all, there is the continual renewal of the soil structure from above from leaf litter as it gradually rots below which will carry bulbs down over the seasons. Reply / forward from John Crellin Maybe the focus is too much on the bulb. From Zonneveld@rulbim.leidenuniv.nl Wed Jul 13 04:23:15 2005 Message-Id: <42D4EB85.26825.1DD684@localhost> From: "zonneveld" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:23:01 +0200 Dear Jim A large part of your problem with latinized names stems form the fact that you try to pronounce as if it was english That is not of great help:(<>). If the names are prounced as it should be as it now are latin names and no longer englisn names most of tyour problems dissappear. So dont pronounce jonesii as if it is still an english word It should be prounounced when latinized as jonEsii ending with two i like in pit Of course no one knows how the romans prounced it but the roman languages as they now exist are a far better approximation than the english language, that has forgotten to adapt the written words to the spoken words. Ben J.M.Zonneveld Institute of Biology,Leiden University, Clusius lab Wassenaarse weg 64, 2333 AL Leiden, The Netherlands Zonneveld@rulbim.Leidenuniv.NL Fax: +31-71-5274999. min temp -10C (15F) From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Wed Jul 13 04:46:39 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050713104402.01eb37d0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:46:19 +0200 At 04:51 13-07-2005, Jim McKenney wrote: >The sprout on all bulbs I know sprouts only once. After that, it is replaced >by another sprout on the same basal plate. That new sprout has its own >surrounding storage scales, sometimes supplemented by scales surviving from >the old bulb. But the sprout is always a new one. And as the old sprout >dies, the axis of annual growth shifts to the axis of the new sprout. And >around that axis are arrayed the elements which make up the new bulb. > >From the outside, it looks like the same old bulb. But on the inside, the >old bulb has disappeared and been replaced by a new one. > >Jim McKenney I know lots of people that grow amaryllis indoors and never hibernate them, so that they retain the same leaves for years. If they are cold for a couple of months they also blossom year after year. In about 10 years, I suppose, all the original leaves would be replaced by new growth, as leaves do grow old in time. Carol From kellyo@wetrock.com Wed Jul 13 05:12:35 2005 Message-Id: <42D47A02.31640.5BBEBE7@localhost> From: "Kelly O'Neill" Subject: Oops, ignore this message and kelly's Re: Pacific Bx 95 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:18:42 -0700 oops, sorry. delete this or whatever. From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Wed Jul 13 07:35:25 2005 Message-Id: <001101c5879e$e4259d20$4332a551@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: usda Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:34:55 +0200 Hello carol, In Belgium we have the last few jears a mild winter,from time to time we have temperatures for a week or 2 in febr.or april between -6 to -9dgr.C.,the last to jears we have summers with temperatures between 26 and 30dgr.C. Bey, Marie-Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Jensen" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" ; "pbs" Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] usda At 21:36 12-07-2005, Marie-Paule wrote: >Hello, >The Usda are they the same as in Europe?I live in usda 7, that can be -17dgr. >Bey Marie-Paule >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ¨ I would imagine so. I have frozen ground in January and February - would that be USDA 5? Summer high is about 32C but 25C is more common. Carol, Denmark _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 13 08:14:33 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1ne245@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:14:28 -0400 Thank you, Ben. Something seems to have gotten confused here. For the most part, I'm on your team, Ben. When you write " A large part of your problem with latinized names stems from the fact that you try to pronounce as if it was english That is not of great help." The problem is not, as you say, that I am trying to pronounce English names as if they were English names. They are English names. The "problem" is that I reject as ridiculous the notion that these names have been Latinized. You also say "Of course no one knows how the romans prounced it but the roman languages as they now exist are a far better approximation than the english language, that has forgotten to adapt the written words to the spoken words." (my bolding, and apologies to those whose e-mail does not support it) BRAVO! You have hit the nail squarely on the head! Look at the history of the modern European languages. Although there are exceptions, more so during our times, historically when these languages adopted a word from another language, the word which came into the borrowing language was spelled in such a way that the sounds of the original word in the other language were, in so far as the sound structure of the borrowing language would allow, preserved. If both the source language and the borrowing language used the Latin alphabet, the word would have been re-spelled to reproduce in the borrowing language the approximate sounds of the source language. In the modern world, there has been a shift to worship the written word. As a result, there has been a growing tendency (apt to be all but universal in the English-speaking world) to borrow words from other languages and while ignoring the pronunciation of those words preserving religiously the spelling as it exists in the source language. Not in my world does a pattern of ink on a piece of paper replace the living, breathing sound that is the true word. One result of this is that the average Joe of the English-speaking world (already notorious for his ethnocentricity and lack of interest in foreign languages) has a splendid vocabulary of mispronounced words of foreign origin. And he thinks the foreigners are being snotty when they correct his pronunciation. In this country we have had a huge and wonderfully invigorating influx of words of foreign origin brought by immigrants (and all of us are immigrants here because humans are not native to North America). Most of us learn about those words from print media. Print media, of course, carry no pronunciation guides as a rule. Thus, when I see in the newspaper a word with ll ( double l), I'm often stumped. If it is of Italian origin, it should be pronounced on way. If it is of Spanish origin, it should be pronounced another way. Just when I think I am getting the hang of distinguishing Italian and Spanish, someone will throw in a Portuguese word with the ll - and I feel like a dummy again. When the average Joe tries to read the label at a zoo for Przewalski's horse (or in the garden, tries to pronounce Ligularia przewalskii), things get very creative. All of this could have been avoided if we had stuck to the time-honored practice of re-spelling borrowed words to reflect their pronunciation. Or at least, in the news media, if we had stuck to the once prevalent practice of italicizing words of foreign origin. There seems to be a growing uncertainty in the print media about this. Now, to get back on a favorite hobby horse: botanical names which preserve the spelling of original, non-romance source language can, in my book, hardly be said to have been Latinized. Let's go back to the example used in the earlier post, the name Sloane. I'm assuming that this is an English-language name, pronounced as a one-syllable word. If you want to reproduce the sound of that name in Latin, you write simply slon. But of course at this point, your honoree Sloane squawks "my name is unrecognizable". So you give in and spell the botanical name Sloanea. Is that really any better? We have successfully stroked the vanity of one person, and in doing so have inconvenienced a great many other potential users of this name. Persons who do not speak English can be excused for wondering how to pronounce such a name (and as you can see in my earlier post, I was not all that sure myself). If you think the name is Latin, you will pronounce it with four syllables: slo-a-ne-a. And your honoree Sloan will be squawking again. If you are a non-English speaking botanist at a conference and pronounce it the way it looks (as a four syllable word), perhaps one of your English-speaking colleagues will nudge you gently and suggest that you drop a syllable. Or perhaps the less charitable ones will be snickering in the background as you try to figure out what is so funny. Furthermore, how do you apply the traditional rule for determining the position of the accent to such a word. The critical vowel, the vowel of the penultimate syllable, the e which ends the name Sloane, is SILENT! In the case of the word Sloane, a better solution would have been to recognize the silent vowel and treat the botanical name as one based on a word which ends in a consonant (as the spoken word Sloane does end with a consonant sound). To my way of thinking it would have made much better sense to spell the botanical name Sloaneia. That at least would have implied to users of the Rules that something funny was going on in the pronunciation of the word Sloane, that the final e was silent. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where there's nothing silent about me. From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 13 08:33:46 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1ne8i6@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:33:43 -0400 Since the bolding did not come through in my previous post, I want to be sure everyone understands what was bolded. I bolded Ben's phrase " that has forgotten to adapt the written words to the spoken words." That is the crux of the whole matter as far as I'm concerned. Ben got it exactly right. Jim McKenney From dells@voicenet.com Wed Jul 13 08:35:34 2005 Message-Id: <20050713123534.4534A4C008@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific Bx 95 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:35:32 -0400 I have received your order. Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX From jshields104@insightbb.com Wed Jul 13 09:43:59 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050713082239.01ef76e0@mail.insightbb.com> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Crinum lineare Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:44:09 -0500 Hi all, Does anyone grow Crinum lineare? I do, but mine do not flower very often. Out of three plants, I get at most one scape per year among the three of them. One, however, does make offsets, and later this year, I will divide the one lineare plant here that has made offsets. I would be interested at that time in swapping offsets for lineare from a different source. For those not familiar with it, C. lineare is a smaller, more delicate crinum than the more familiar bulbispermum, x-powellii, and milk-and-wine lilies of the Old South in the USA. I've seen it described as a desert plant as and a seashore plant in sand dunes. I can't find much information on it. Does anyone have a reference on Crinum lineare? Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From dkramb@badbear.com Wed Jul 13 10:20:11 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20050713095531.019fa318@pop.bizland.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:20:28 -0400 >tyour problems dissappear. So dont pronounce jonesii as if it is still >an english word It should be prounounced when latinized as jonEsii >ending with two i like in pit Of course no one knows how the >romans prounced it but the roman languages as they now exist are This is something I find very interesting! I had learned to speak modern Greek before I got into gardening. Consequently I pronounce the scientific plant names as though they are modern Greek words rather than modern English words. (I suspect most of them are Greek words rather than Latin. anyway.) Suffice it to say many plant experts have corrected my pronunciation over the years! But when I hear them speak it, they just sound like hillbillies to me, LOL. In truth, I don't care how things are pronounced. It's just not that important. As long as two people can understand what plant each other is talking about, that's all that matters. I think it adds a bit of spice & fun to plant collecting to have people pronounce them differently, anyway. Almost as much spice & fun as trying to keep up with the ever changing classifications! Dennis in Cincinnati From john@floralarchitecture.com Wed Jul 13 11:40:36 2005 Message-Id: <20050713154031.43334.qmail@web50101.mail.yahoo.com> From: Floral Architecture Subject: Bulbs in habitat Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:40:31 -0700 (PDT) This photo album was forwarded on another yahoo group I am on for succulents. But, while perusing, I found a folder with a few photos of bulbs in habitat. Thought some on this list might find it interesting. http://public.fotki.com/PanosS/bulb_plants_in_habitat/ John Ingram in L.A., CA. www.floralarchitecture.com "Your Clivia Connection" john@floralarchitecture.com 310.709.1613 (cell, west coast time, please call accordingly. Thank you) From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 13 11:45:25 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1qnd28@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Nomenclature: a long quibble Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:45:23 -0400 Just to be sure we all understand where the Rules stand on this issue of apparently feminine names, here's what the Rules say in Recommendation 20A: 20A.1. Authors forming generic names should comply with the following advice: (a-h omitted here) i) To give a feminine form to all personal generic names, whether they commemorate a man or a woman (see Rec. 60B). Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I'm wondering if maybe we should take up a collection to buy new calling cards for Mons. Balansa with the Mons. bolded. Jim McKenney From cathycraigea@hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:32:56 2005 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: Membership Directory Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:32:54 -0700 Hi all, The membership directory is in the mail! I think you will like it, we've improved upon it from last year. Thank you to Patty Colville for keeping track of current members and for keeping our data base up to date! This year our directory has a proper cover of cover-weight stock. The cover photo was taken specifically for our directory cover by Arnold Trachtenberg. It is a gorgeous photo of boophone disticha. Thank you, Arnold! We are using 24 lb stock with a brightness of 108 this year for the pages so it will be easier to read and the print won't show through the pages like it tends to do on 20 lb stock. Also the pages are numbered this year. This will make it easier for you to tell if any pages are missing. Since we designed, produced, printed, collated, stapled, stamped, sealed, labeled, and mailed the directories this year (last year we had a printer do it), there may be a variety of errors and/or omissions. The directories were checked and re-checked but there still may be some that go out awry. Please check YOUR listing and report any incorrect or obsolete information directly to Patty, our membership chair: Pat.Colville@JHResearchUSA.com. Also if you have mis-printed or missing pages, please let Patty know. We have spare copies and she will send you a replacement directory. Since I produced this directory, all errors and omissions are my doing and do not reflect on the input I received from other board members. US members: I expect you all to have your directory by the weekend. Int'l members: Directories went out this week air mail. I expect you to have your directories by about mid-week next week. If you have not received your copy by the end of July, please contact Patty and she will see you receive one. Any member who joins (or rejoins) yet this year; Patty will send you a member directory as soon as payment is received. Thanks to you all for being members of PBS. We really appreciate each and every one of you!! Contact Info: Patty Colville, Membership Chair - Pat.Colville@JHResearch.com Cathy Craig EA Pres PBS From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Wed Jul 13 15:03:25 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050713210100.01ea59a0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Usda Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:03:01 +0200 At 09:10 13-07-2005, Marie-Paule wrote: >Hello, >No, the temperature not always drop to minus 17dgr.C.The temperature is mostly between -6 and -13.but it not always freezes. >Thank You for the information, >Marie-Paule >_______________________________________________ It looks as though Marie-Paule and I are in the same zone (7). I would put us both in zone 8, since also in Denmark near the coast where I live, the winter temperatures are about 10C, enough to freeze the soil January and February and no more. Inland in Denmark is colder of course. Carol From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Wed Jul 13 15:15:37 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050713211237.01ea9630@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: need a book Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:15:19 +0200 Since I am a humanist and know nothing of botany, could you guys recommend a book about bulbs which could teach me about filaments and corona and some more advanced stuff like hypogeal and epigeal seeds? I'm just barely hanging on by the skin of my teeth with this massive ignorance! Carol From cathycraigea@hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 15:24:03 2005 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: Memb Directory Contact Info correction Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:24:01 -0700 Hi all, Our membership chair, Patty Colville's, email address midway through my posting regarding our new Membership Directories, is correct. The contact info at the bottom of my post is incorrect. Patty's correct email address is: Pat.Colville@JHResearchUSA.com Sorry for any inconvenience! Cathy Craig EA Taxation & Asset Management CathyCraigEA@hotmail.com (949) 369-8588 Ofc (949) 939-7801 Cell From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 13 15:58:21 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1qqtm5@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Usda Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:58:19 -0400 Carol and Marie-Paule, if your interest in the USDA zoning system is to find areas in the US with a climate comparable to that in Denmark or Belgium, you are in for a disappointment. The USDA system is excellent for the areas for which it was developed, especially the heavily populated parts of the eastern United States and Canada. The more you move from that area, the less relevant it becomes. From what I have observed, people on the west coast of the United States do not use it much - they have better zoning systems developed in response to their local conditions. For the same reasons, the European zoning systems are different, too. The focus of the USDA system is on minimum winter temperature. As every experienced gardener knows, that is only one of the factors which determine the success or failure of plants in a given area. For instance, the dogwood Cornus florida, one of the most beautiful of eastern North American trees, grows wild as far north as zone 4 southern Canada (roughly as low as minus 35 C where winters are really winters). Yet it is difficult to grow well in the much milder English climate (in general, zone 8 in terms of winter temps) and evidently frequently suffers winter die-back. Yet dogwood also grows wild and flourishes in zone 8 of the southeastern United States (and it grows in the highlands of Mexico, too). The west coast dogwood, Cornus nuttallii, is generally a failure (actually, I know of no exceptions) here on the east coast in zone 7. USDA Zone 8 London, England, UK and USDA zone 8 Charleston, South Carolina, USA don't have much in common climatically except the zone 8 assignment. The aroid Amorphophallus konjac provides another example. If you had asked anyone fifty years ago (and some of us are old enough to remember those days), this plant would have been described as "sub-tropical". Adventurous gardeners here in zone 7 have been growing and flowering it outside for decades, and the trials, successful trials, continue to move northward. On the Alpine-L list, Panayoti Kelaidis today reported the survival of Amorphophallus konjac in Denver, Colorado, USA, zone 5. To paraphrase another contributor to this list, know your local conditions and don't be satisfied until you have killed a plant yourself several times. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where three species of palm, Brugmansia, noisette roses but not Eucomis have grown outside for many years. essage----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carol Jensen Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:03 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society; pbs Subject: Re: [pbs] Usda At 09:10 13-07-2005, Marie-Paule wrote: >Hello, >No, the temperature not always drop to minus 17dgr.C.The temperature is mostly between -6 and -13.but it not always freezes. >Thank You for the information, >Marie-Paule >_______________________________________________ It looks as though Marie-Paule and I are in the same zone (7). I would put us both in zone 8, since also in Denmark near the coast where I live, the winter temperatures are about 10C, enough to freeze the soil January and February and no more. Inland in Denmark is colder of course. Carol _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Wed Jul 13 17:09:51 2005 Message-Id: <000501c587ef$356d5ba0$88e48156@2CVEVE1> From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:09:51 +0100 If we have to take notice of how the original names were spoken, I would be amused to know if there are any plants named after English persons called either Cholmondley or Featherstonehough. In the UK the former is pronounced Chumly and the second Fanshawe. :-) Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8 From jglatt@ptd.net Wed Jul 13 17:31:34 2005 Message-Id: <42D58840.1040005@ptd.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: botany book and pronunciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:31:44 -0400 A very nice little book is Botany for Gardeners, An Introduction and Guide, by Brian Capon. Hard cover, published by Timber Press in 1990. Nice glossary index, good line drawings, a few scattered color illustrations amidst its 200 or so pages. Another one is Longman Illustrated Dictionary of Botany, the elements of plant science illustrated and defined by Andrew Sugden. Hard cover, published by Longman, York Press in 1984.Color drawings. On the back cover it states: Useful for : * finding the meaning of a word * finding related words * revising a subject area * finding a word whose meaning you know * finding a word to fit a meaning More concise than Brian Capon's book. For example -. *pappus* (n) a group of fine hairs on a small dry fruit, which helps in dispersal (see next entry) by wind, e.g. in the family (p. 134) Compositae. Both of these small books cover more than Carol is looking for, but are easy to manuveur your way around. Chock full of interesting tidbits. The first time I was in Holland, back in 1973 I could not understand their pronunciation of Latin plant names. Fair enough, they couldn't understand mine. But when we wrote the names down on a piece of paper, we were able to understand each other. More recently, I was in Holland in 2002, and gave a small lecture at the ISU meeting. After which I was gently chided for pronouncing it Viola tri-color, when of course, I was told, it should have been Viola tree-color. O.K. My ego doesn't bruise quite that easily. Judy in humid and thunderstormy New Jersey From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Wed Jul 13 17:33:49 2005 Message-Id: <000601c587f2$8e599c80$88e48156@2CVEVE1> From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: Eucomis Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:33:48 +0100 I very good summary of growing Eucomis under UK conditions is given on David Fenwick's African Garden website at http://www.theafricangarden.com/page44.html and http://www.theafricangarden.com/page45.html and his gallery of photos on http://www.theafricangarden.com/page40.html I have seen Eucomis zambesiaca growing and flowering at RHS Rosemoor in north Devon on a woodland bank, and superficially it looked very similar to the dwarf form of E. autumnalis I grow here 25miles west of London. All of the bulbs of E. comosa (hyb?) or autumnalis I now have in pots or in the garden, or have passed on to friends, have come from seed. I have not knowingly lost any to frost or winter wet. I recall David telling me that deeper planting discouraged bulb splitting with some of his bulbs, and hence presumably more chance of flowering the less easy types. As regards greenhouse fans and air movement improving the turgidity of the leaves; could it not be similar to young trees where staking low down the stem to allow flexing, encourages the production of a stronger skeletal system? Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8 From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 13 17:43:16 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1nl8je@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: botany book and pronunciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:42:55 -0400 Judy, since you don't bruise easily, I'll take another poke, but this one is really directed to the person who told you to say tree-color. They should have told you to say something like TREH-co-lor: the i in tricolor is a sort i, not the long i which would have given the "tree" sound. I trust you also said WEE-o-la and made at least an attempt at an apico-dental sound for the r and not one of those back-of-the mouth, half-swallowed r sounds? And of course you reminded them that vi-O-la is a musical instrument, didn't you? This is a hoot! Jim McKenney From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 13 17:49:47 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1nlamm@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:49:44 -0400 Here in Maryland, we have two traditional pronounciations which almost match in unseemliness the ones Brian cited: Baltimore is pronounced something like Balmawr by most of its residents, and Talliafero is pronounced something like Tolliver. I've never encountered the name Featherstonehough, but who among us has not encountered some know-it-all (who also happened to know what he was talking about!) who was glad to tell us how to pronounce the name of Clematis Mrs. Cholmondley - and I'm not referring to the position of the accent on the word Clematis. Jim McKenney From ernestwells@mindspring.com Wed Jul 13 17:50:33 2005 Message-Id: <0541D416-54B3-4087-A68C-EF3B2D2A0782@mindspring.com> From: Tom Wells Subject: botany book and pronunciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:50:26 -0700 Dang, just when I was getting the hang of this, now I have to find out what a sort 'i' is ;>), I will never short this out. Tom Wells On Jul 13, 2005, at 2:42 PM, Jim McKenney wrote: > Judy, since you don't bruise easily, I'll take another poke, but > this one is > really directed to the person who told you to say tree-color. > > They should have told you to say something like TREH-co-lor: the i in > tricolor is a sort i, not the long i which would have given the "tree" > sound. I trust you also said WEE-o-la and made at least an attempt > at an > apico-dental sound for the r and not one of those back-of-the mouth, > half-swallowed r sounds? > > And of course you reminded them that vi-O-la is a musical > instrument, didn't > you? > > This is a hoot! > > Jim McKenney > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 13 17:55:55 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1nlcjs@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: botany book and pronunciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:55:53 -0400 Thanks, Tom. Those naughty fingers where shorted out because of all the energy going into the chuckling up above. Jim McKenney From leo1010@attglobal.net Wed Jul 13 19:06:04 2005 Message-Id: <42D58F12.8010801@attglobal.net> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:00:50 -0600 > When the average Joe tries to read the label at a zoo for Przewalski's horse > (or in the garden, tries to pronounce Ligularia przewalskii), things get > very creative. You big silly! In Polish, Przewalski is pronounced exactly as it's spelled. How about that Dioon from Oaxaca, Mexico: D. rzedowskii? Leo From arnold@nj.rr.com Wed Jul 13 18:03:56 2005 Message-Id: <42D58FC9.9020704@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Eucomis Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:03:53 -0400 I think the issue of fans and trees swaying in the breeze are further proof that a bit of stress will make us all stronger but too much will kill us. Arnold NJ ( Although driving through Manhattan everyday can be a bit stressful. Hans Selye where are you. From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Wed Jul 13 18:04:25 2005 Message-Id: <000701c587f6$d50e0ea0$88e48156@2CVEVE1> From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:04:25 +0100 I have often wondered how a bulb, or other bulbous plant, knows its depth in the soil, or what the effect of trying to move itself might achieve. Is it trying to get dryer, wetter, cooler, warmer, away from the light or oxygen rich air...? Trying to relate this to pot growing is even more complex as pots heat up quite differently, may have wetter tops or bottoms depending on your watering regime, and with nutrient poor growing mediums and ample nutrient rich water, tending to hydroculture, may produce unnatural root systems. I rarely find adult bulbs moving down much in pots when grown in gritty soil based composts, and bulbs that increase quickly vegetatively, or self seed readily, like some Habranthus, usually push themselves up to the surface or burst the pot, whichever is the easier for them. Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8 From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Wed Jul 13 18:08:59 2005 Message-Id: <000801c587f7$781fa9a0$88e48156@2CVEVE1> From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:08:58 +0100 I had forgotten about Clematis Mrs Cholmondley, and I have it in the garden. Brian Whyer From leo1010@attglobal.net Wed Jul 13 19:18:14 2005 Message-Id: <42D591EB.3040504@attglobal.net> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: More pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:12:59 -0600 > If we have to take notice of how the original names were spoken, I would > be amused to know if there are any plants named after English persons > called either Cholmondley or Featherstonehough. In the UK the former is > pronounced Chumly and the second Fanshawe. :-) A Scottish lady told me what is written Mingus is pronounced Menzies. Or was it the other way around? There is a Mingus Mountain here in Arizona (on which lies the town of Jerome, or Geronimo in Spanish, or Hieronymous to others...) and isn't there a fuzzy house plant in California (that makes new plantlets from the leaf sinus and in habitat grows under redwood trees) named Menzies' something-or-other? And how about those Welsh? Malagasy (the language of Madagascar) is very easy to pronounce, having not so many sounds. But most people who look at the written Malagasy word can't figure out how the sound comes out. The transcription into the Latin alphabet was invented by a Welshman. If only my keyboard had the phonemes used by linguists rather than the Latin alphabet. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From crocosmia@blueyonder.co.uk Wed Jul 13 18:22:39 2005 Message-Id: <000601c587f9$61c0d100$e589eb50@CROCOSMIA> From: "David Fenwick Snr." Subject: Eucomis Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:22:38 +0100 Dear All, Just a note to explain a little bit about planting depths of my Eucomis here. I plant very deeply because this affords frost protection in the winter. However this also has a beneficial effect in the summer, as planted deeper the soil temperature is cooler and the bulbs are more able to take up water as the soil surface quickly dies out. One of the problems though is that the bulbs don't divide very well at all, they just seem to get bigger. I once lifted my E. pole-evansii to find something similar in size to, and what could only be literally described as a cast iron man-hole cover. Never again, so don't ask for any. lol. Also by planting deeply warm spells in winter effect dormancy less and thus some of my Eucomis don't surface till July, and don't get frosted at all. This is quite a benefit though as it allows me to grow Gladiolus x colvillei and nanus hybrids around the bulbs, these die off as the Eucomis emerge. In my experience the closer the bulbs are to the surface the more frost they receive and the more they divide; and in a similar manner a hyacinth divides after being attacked by a slug. Last year I was sent a large 'very' damaged bulb of comosa 'Rubra', which only had about 1cm sq of basal plate left. It didn't die or divide it just kept on happily growing. It is producing a few shoots at the moment though. Flowering is not effected by planting deeply, infact the spikes are very strong and thick. Some still flop over as usual but I am happy with my method of growing them as it is undemanding, unless I plant in the wrong place. Bulb depth is relative to size. Small bulbs (eg. 5cm) of comosa and bicolour forms are usually grown on in clay pots and overwintered in a cold greenhouse for a season and to increase bulb size quickly, and I'll probably plant these out the following year at about a depth of 15cm. If I get larger bulbs or want to plant my own potted stock, these are often planted at a depth of 30cm from the top of the bulb. I have a very good deep soil, but not neccessarily well-drained, just a loam / clay loam. In the UK Eucomis are regarding as only half-hardy but some are obviously very tough indeed and would be ideal for a north facing situation. I experience leaf wilt here, but only when bulbs are containerised, or are at the front of a south facing border. Most of my plants are planted in between other plants, plants such as Crocosmia, Agapanthus, Tulbaghia and Kniphofia, and thus the leaves are partially shaded, and the ground cooler and probably moister. Thus Eucomis either suffer from sunstroke or a daily temporary lack of water on hot days. I suppose it might be that the bulbs have evolved this way, and it may not be 'water loss', the water might be sent from the leaves to the bulbs as a sort of defense mechanism against drought. Of the more tender species and species not mentioned, well these all survived -6 or -7C this winter, and in unprotected clay pots, filled with Irish Moss Peat compost. Best Wishes, Dave David Fenwick Snr. The African Garden 96 Wasdale Gardens, Estover, Plymouth, Devon. England. PL6 8TW Tel: 44 (0)1752 301402 NCCPG National Plant Reference Collections of Crocosmia with Chasmanthe, Tulbaghia, Eucomis with Galtonia, Freesia (Anomatheca Group) and Amaryllis Websites The African Garden www.theafricangarden.com Wildflowers of the Devon and Cornwall Peninsula www.aphotoflora.com Crocosmia Heritage www.crocosmiaheritage.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 12/07/2005 From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Wed Jul 13 18:24:00 2005 Message-Id: <000901c587f9$91a17050$88e48156@2CVEVE1> From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: Ponerorchis Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:24:00 +0100 Getting back to "bulbs", well bulbous anyway. Does anyone have experience with the orchid Ponerorchis. I am growing them for the first time and could not be more pleased, so far. 5 tubers at £3 each and all are in flower a few months later, all more or less different in colour and form, with ~5 to 15 flowers on each. They are very heat and light tolerant in my frost free greenhouse, often taking almost full afternoon sunshine and temperatures of 100F or more during recent very sunny weather, without any apparent ill effect. Are they going to let me down with a bump in a few weeks and die due to plant abuse? How long do I grow them on after flowering? A gardenweb enquiry has recommended bagging the tubers in polythene and refrigerating in winter. I prefer to leave in the pot if possible, especially as UK fridges are miniscule by American standards, and don't have spare plant space, although the tubers are very small. Any American or European growers have them in the garden? Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8 From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Wed Jul 13 18:33:08 2005 Message-Id: <000a01c587fa$d79cabf0$88e48156@2CVEVE1> From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: Ponerorchis Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:33:07 +0100 To ponerorchis add graminifolia, Sorry. > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On > Behalf Of Brian Whyer > Sent: 13 July 2005 23:24 > To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' > Subject: [pbs] Ponerorchis > > Getting back to "bulbs", well bulbous anyway. Does anyone have > experience with the orchid Ponerorchis. I am growing them for the first > time and could not be more pleased, so far. 5 tubers at £3 each and all > are in flower a few months later, all more or less different in colour > and form, with ~5 to 15 flowers on each. They are very heat and light > tolerant in my frost free greenhouse, often taking almost full afternoon > sunshine and temperatures of 100F or more during recent very sunny > weather, without any apparent ill effect. Are they going to let me down > with a bump in a few weeks and die due to plant abuse? How long do I > grow them on after flowering? A gardenweb enquiry has recommended > bagging the tubers in polythene and refrigerating in winter. I prefer to > leave in the pot if possible, especially as UK fridges are miniscule by > American standards, and don't have spare plant space, although the > tubers are very small. Any American or European growers have them in the > garden? > > Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8 > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 13 18:40:12 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1nlqfm@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:40:09 -0400 Diana wrote: " If you tried to punch through asphalt with a shoot of a plant you couldn't do it, but plants frequently are able to do this amazing feat." Yes, they do, and if they are bulbous plants, doesn't that suggest another question? What I mean is, why, when the shoot is pushing up against the asphalt does the bulb itself not get pushed deeper into the ground? Does this mean that the force exerted by the roots which are supposed to pull bulbs downward is greater than the force it takes to pierce asphalt? It's becoming more and more improbable to me. Jim McKenney From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 13 19:18:28 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1nm6i5@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:18:26 -0400 Well said, Leo. I know about the dioöns, members of the genus Dioon, but Mr. Rzedowski and I are not acquinted. How does he pronounce his name? Jim McKenney From john@johnlonsdale.net Wed Jul 13 19:28:50 2005 Message-Id: <20050713232850.4CADE4C008@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "John Lonsdale" Subject: Ponerorchis Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:28:47 -0400 Brian, P. graminifolia is reputed to be hardy here but I've never tried it. Mine are in pots and very easy to grow, the biggest danger is too much water and thence rot. After they've flowered they'll stay in growth for a long time then just go to sleep with the fall. At this point I put the pot in the greenhouse and don't give them a drop of water until spring rolls around again. They are happy bone dry in the pot. If you knock them out be prepared to play hunt the tuber - they are like many Orchis that gather a coating of whatever medium they are in that very effectively camouflages them. Treat them like a pot of Rhodohypoxis. Best, J. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From mmattus@charter.net Wed Jul 13 21:06:02 2005 Message-Id: From: Matt Mattus Subject: Ponerorchis Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:06:03 -0400 I am completely addicted to Orchis graminifolia. I first saw them in Tokyo at a few specialist nursery's, then acquired a few from some friends there. I travel to Japan frequently on business and June is when you see them at most of the Nurseries growing in small Neofinetia pots and elaborate orchid pots. You even see them in the Ginza district in fancy store windows, at temples and at the supermarket. I have not found them to be hardy here in New England, but they grow well in my cold greenhouse, yet mine do seem to loose their robustness over a few years, I still have not perfected growing them. In Japan, they are almost fanatical about them, much like the other Japanese orchids Neofinetia falcata and Dendrobium moniliforme. All grown since the Edo period by Samurai and the wealthy, all three of these orchids are grown in the manner of goten Engei, or Shogunbutsu -traditionally grown in small orchid pots and displayed with many fancy cultivars selling for outrageous sums of money. There are festivals for them much as they have festivals for other flowering plants like Chrysanthemums and Hydrangea. My friend Masashi's site is worth looking at to learn more about all of these plants and these orchids. http://homepage3.nifty.com/plantsandjapan/index.html In the states, I have found them at Barry Yinger's site Asiatica.com I buy my Poneorchis wholesale from another Japanese site and they are extremely reasonable if you buy them in large numbers, they are quite inexpensive and yes, culture is very similar to Rhodohypoxis, Mine also get the same treatment. Matt Mattus Worcester, MA Zone 5 On 7/13/05 7:28 PM, "John Lonsdale" wrote: > Brian, > > P. graminifolia is reputed to be hardy here but I've never tried it. Mine > are in pots and very easy to grow, the biggest danger is too much water and > thence rot. After they've flowered they'll stay in growth for a long time > then just go to sleep with the fall. At this point I put the pot in the > greenhouse and don't give them a drop of water until spring rolls around > again. They are happy bone dry in the pot. If you knock them out be > prepared to play hunt the tuber - they are like many Orchis that gather a > coating of whatever medium they are in that very effectively camouflages > them. Treat them like a pot of Rhodohypoxis. > > Best, > > J. > > John T Lonsdale PhD > 407 Edgewood Drive, > Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA > > Home: 610 594 9232 > Cell: 484 678 9856 > Fax: 801 327 1266 > > Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net > > USDA Zone 6b > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 13 21:22:46 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1que1q@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: More pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:22:45 -0400 Leo wrote : ") and isn't there a fuzzy house plant in California (that makes new plantlets from the leaf sinus and in habitat grows under redwood trees) named Menzies' something-or-other?" Yes, it's Tolmeia menziesii, a saxifragaceous plant. Jim McKenney From Theladygardens@aol.com Wed Jul 13 21:59:41 2005 Message-Id: <27.7615ec1a.3007210a@aol.com> From: Theladygardens@aol.com Subject: botany book and pronunciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:59:38 EDT Many years ago I took a lot of classes from Dr. Leonid Enari. When asked how to pronounce botanical names, he said it didn't matter as long as you could write it down or somehow make each other understand what plant you were talking about. He is a real gentleman and treated everyone with respect and courtesy. (No matter how stupid the question). Carolyn From msittner@mcn.org Wed Jul 13 23:09:03 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050713193203.02a9c600@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Eucomis Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:44:06 -0700 Dear All, It's been interesting reading all the Eucomis posts. Dave led us in the topic of the week on this subject a number of years ago. When Jim M. asked about pictures I looked at Cameron McMaster's CD to see if there were any pictures of those species there and there weren't, but there were some habitat pictures of Eucomis autumnalis and maybe Eucomis comosa so I added them to the wiki. The one of Eucomis autumnalis I found rather amazing since somehow I was under the impression that they would like shade and there they were growing in a very open grassland. We saw some Eucomis comosa in the Mendocino Coast Botanical Gardens last summer. It was a very broad patch with a lot of flowers and quite pretty. But also quite floppy. I've added a picture to the wiki. These plants were in the perennial garden so I'd think the air circulation would be just fine. http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Eucomis Look for the pictures from Cameron McMaster of Eucomis autumnalis and Eucomis comosa and the one from me of Eucomis comosa blooming last August at the Mendocino Coast Botanical Gardens. I'm not getting good blooms on the ones I've grown from seed and I suspect it's just too dry here in summer. I planted some out last year after seeing the ones at the MCBG and they look quite stressed. Agapanthus close by look much better so are obviously much more tolerant of dry conditions in summer. I thought it would be better to grow the Eucomis in deep containers so I could be sure they got more water, but they aren't blooming there either. It looks like I might get one flower spike. The plants look happier however. Mary Sue From johngrimshaw@tiscali.co.uk Thu Jul 14 02:36:26 2005 Message-Id: <006301c5883e$5aa6adf0$35d6403e@John> From: Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:05:02 +0100 If we have to take notice of how the original names were spoken, I would > be amused to know if there are any plants named after English persons > called either Cholmondley or Featherstonehough. In the UK the former is > pronounced Chumly and the second Fanshawe. :-) > Not that I've come acros, but there is Colquhounia (the Scots surname Colquhoun is pronounced Cahoon) and (Primula) cockburniana (Cockburn being pronounced Coburn). John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Garden Manager, Colesbourne Gardens Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk From totototo@pacificcoast.net Thu Jul 14 01:24:18 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:35:48 -0700 On 13 Jul 05 at 8:33, Jim McKenney wrote: > Since the bolding did not come through in my previous post, I > want to be sure everyone understands what was bolded. > > I bolded Ben's phrase " that has > > forgotten to adapt the written words to the spoken words." > > That is the crux of the whole matter as far as I'm concerned. > Ben got it exactly right. The matter is rather more complex. It's that English underwent a sea change in its pronunciation *after* the advent of printing had resulted in the stabilization of spellings. Thought, though, night, tough: those gh's all reflect that these words were once pronounced more or less as spelled, something like "ugh" with various other letters fore and aft. Some may say "well why don't we adjust the spelling to match the pronunciation now?" Two big reasons: first, it would render older literature much more difficult to read; and second, *which* of many English pronunciations would be selected? The rather effete, fluting tones of a British twit? The broad musical tones of an American black? The nasality of Rochester, New York? The r-less Noo Yawk accent? Or is that Nyew Yawk? -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From jimlykos@optusnet.com.au Thu Jul 14 01:51:29 2005 Message-Id: <006201c58838$56981240$b3d1eddc@AMARYLLIS> From: "Jim Lykos" Subject: Crinum lineare Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:53:19 +1000 Hi Jim S I am growing a few C. lineare - and have two mature plants purchased from Bruce Knights nursery about 18months ago when he sold his collection. Bruce grew a number of South African Crinum species to perfection. He grew the C. lineare in an oversized 10 inch pot - with a two inch saucer filled with water underneath during summer, and placed the pot under dry shelter during its winter dormancy. I found C. lineare to have the most tidy even patterned leaf growth habit of any of the Crinums I grow. Its leaves spread out in a similar fashion to Ammocharis coranica (star arrangement) - I grew it more conservatively than Bruce (without the saucer) and was initially disappointed that they didnt flower - thinking that the drought conditions we were experiencing could have influenced this - however there was some heavy mid autumn rainfall and to my surprise the C. lineare both flowered. The last Crinum of the season to flower with dark red stripes on the reverses of well shaped flowers. As a C. procerum was still in flower I made a cross to the procerum seed parent which was successful. Cheers Jim L Blue Mountains Australia From dkramb@badbear.com Thu Jul 14 10:15:35 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20050714101037.01a8a5d8@pop.bizland.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:15:56 -0400 My favorite tongue twister is Iris zaprjagajewii. Another Iris name that drives me nuts is Iris innominata. Why? Because it gets that muppets song stuck in my head for the rest of the day. "Muh nuh muh nuh... doo doo do dooo doooo. Muh nuh muh muh.... do do dooo dooo." From john@floralarchitecture.com Thu Jul 14 11:03:15 2005 Message-Id: <20050714150314.33862.qmail@web50103.mail.yahoo.com> From: Floral Architecture Subject: OT: Inch worms Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:03:14 -0700 (PDT) I just found some inch worms on some cut flower Tracheliums that I brought in from my landlady's garden (she's been out of town for a month). What I'd like to know is how much damage can these pests cause? I have a huge amount of holes on my Brugmansia cultivars but very little on my bulbs foliage. John Ingram in L.A., CA. www.floralarchitecture.com "Your Clivia Connection" john@floralarchitecture.com 310.709.1613 (cell, west coast time, please call accordingly. Thank you) From msittner@mcn.org Thu Jul 14 11:40:57 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050714083254.02b98d90@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Ponerorchis Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:40:15 -0700 Dear All, Susan Hayek has added one of John Lonsdale's pictures of this to the wiki in case some of you are curious as I was: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Ponerorchis Echoing the earlier thread about names on the wiki, I see that Matt is calling this Orchis graminifolia and in doing a bit of searching also came up with Habenaria graminifolia. IPNI has notes for a number of the Ponerorchis named plants of Orchis. Could some of you who are more knowledgeable than I am about orchids provide me with some information about the names people use so I can make a reference about this on the wiki. Thanks. Mary Sue From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Thu Jul 14 11:45:44 2005 Message-Id: <000801c5888b$0656f140$9c5aa451@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: a nice site for bulbs Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:45:13 +0200 Hello, this is perhaps interesting for one of you,a fine site with many bulbs. http://www.friesland-staudengarten.de/des10/ Regards, Marie-Paule From khixson@nu-world.com Thu Jul 14 13:03:46 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050714095502.02c69e30@mail.nu-world.com> From: Kenneth Hixson Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:03:22 -0700 Dennis >Another Iris name that drives me nuts is Iris innominata. How could you resent an iris named "the unnamed iris"? and then there is Hyacinthoides non-scripta, which no one has written about. and the Orchid, Dracula vampira 'Bela Lugosi'. Botanists make sense--sure they do. And I pronounce every name properly, because I understand what I am saying. Ken From john@johnlonsdale.net Thu Jul 14 13:28:16 2005 Message-Id: <20050714172815.A206E4C00B@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "John Lonsdale" Subject: Ponerorchis Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:28:07 -0400 Mary Sue, Whilst still seen frequently as Ponerorchis, there seems to be a trend to include them in Orchis now. I don't think there's right or wrong here. J. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From piabinha@yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 14:46:08 2005 Message-Id: <20050714184607.88064.qmail@web51906.mail.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: More pronounciation Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:46:07 -0700 (PDT) > And how about those Welsh? Malagasy (the language of > Madagascar) is very > easy to pronounce, having not so many sounds. But > most people who look > at the written Malagasy word can't figure out how > the sound comes out. Malagasy is not so easy to pronounce (to me). for example, malagasy (the people and language of the island) is pronounced as in the french spelling "malgache" (soft ch). then you try to pronounce their kings' names (often 15 or more syllables) and you run into a lot of trouble. tsuh yang ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From leo1010@attglobal.net Thu Jul 14 16:53:55 2005 Message-Id: <42D6C196.9030105@attglobal.net> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:48:38 -0600 > I know about the dioons, members of the genus Dioon, > but Mr. Rzedowski and I are not acquainted. > > How does he pronounce his name? He can't any more, but anybody in Poland would recognize it is to be pronounced just as spelled. He was a native of Poland who lived in Mexico. Remember, my keyboard lacks phoneme keys, but in Polish the combination rz is pronounced by making at the same time the sounds for R as in English and a voiced SH, which in English is usually written ZH. This particular W is pronounced like our English consonant F. There is another consonant in Polish pronounced the way we pronounce the W in English but it is written with a letter that looks to us like an L. So it should be pronounced (using letters as a United Statian speaker might understand them) -- |r-- |zh-DOFF-skee - I suspect the proper spelling in Polish should have been Rzdowski, but on entry to Mexico it was simplified. In Mexico and among cycad people it is pronounced ze-DOW-skee. It is kind of fun verbally to ask newbies to look it up in an alphabetized cycad book or list. Leo Martin (Grandson of Leo Marciniak and Regina Budzinski) Phoenix Arizona USA From leo1010@attglobal.net Thu Jul 14 16:59:02 2005 Message-Id: <42D6C2C5.7090804@attglobal.net> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:53:41 -0600 > Some may say "well why don't we adjust the spelling to match > the pronunciation now?" Two big reasons: first, it would render > older literature much more difficult to read; Uhhh... Who reads it now, since Burnam wood to Dunce in Nayn hath come? > and second, > *which* of many English pronunciations would be selected? Most people would say, "MINE, of course." Leo -- Leo A. Martin Phoenix, Arizona, USA Some must watch while some must sleep-so runs the world away. Shakespeare From johngrimshaw@tiscali.co.uk Thu Jul 14 16:23:10 2005 Message-Id: <003701c588b1$d41d5c10$6ade403e@John> From: Subject: Ponerorchis Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:21:29 +0100 Ponerorchis graminifolia is correct! Orchis is totally different but the name has been grossly and widely misused, especially in North America in the past! See Genera Orchidacearum Vol II , Orchidoideae , eds Pridgeon et al. 2001, Oxford University Press, for an authoritative account of the genera of most of the terrestrial tuberous orchids. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Garden Manager, Colesbourne Gardens Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 Mobile 07 919 840 063 Fax (Estate Office) 01242 870541 Website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lonsdale" To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Ponerorchis > Mary Sue, > > Whilst still seen frequently as Ponerorchis, there seems to be a trend to > include them in Orchis now. I don't think there's right or wrong here. > > J. > > > > John T Lonsdale PhD > 407 Edgewood Drive, > Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA > > Home: 610 594 9232 > Cell: 484 678 9856 > Fax: 801 327 1266 > > Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net > > USDA Zone 6b > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From jimmckenney@starpower.net Thu Jul 14 17:02:50 2005 Message-Id: <3u3gb7$1r8r9k@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Latin versus english pronounciation Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:02:49 -0400 Thanks a bunch, Leo. That's why I love this list! Jim McKenney From dszeszko@gmail.com Thu Jul 14 17:17:07 2005 Message-Id: <9912b0b6050714141712cf71ba@mail.gmail.com> From: Dennis Szeszko Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 30, Issue 21 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:17:07 -0500 Mary Sue: The Orchidaceae are one of the worst-offenders in the plant kingdom when it comes to changes in classification or taxonomy. The best reference with regards to nomenclature of orchidaceous plants is a website maintained by Kew Gardens. The World Checklist of Monocots: http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/monocotChecklist/default.jsp They are correct 99% of the time. However, it is already out-of-date with regards to a few species. -Dennis Dear All, Susan Hayek has added one of John Lonsdale's pictures of this to the wiki in case some of you are curious as I was: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Ponerorchis Echoing the earlier thread about names on the wiki, I see that Matt is calling this Orchis graminifolia and in doing a bit of searching also came up with Habenaria graminifolia. IPNI has notes for a number of the Ponerorchis named plants of Orchis. Could some of you who are more knowledgeable than I am about orchids provide me with some information about the names people use so I can make a reference about this on the wiki. Thanks. Mary Sue From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Thu Jul 14 18:10:00 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050715000727.01eedec0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: botany book and pronunciation Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:09:38 +0200 At 23:31 13-07-2005, Judy Glattstein wrote: >in 2002, and gave a small lecture at the ISU meeting. After which I was >gently chided for pronouncing it Viola tri-color, when of course, I was >told, it should have been Viola tree-color. O.K. My ego doesn't bruise >quite that easily. > >Judy in humid and thunderstormy New Jersey >_______________________________________________ I also have wondered about the "pin" pronunciation of "i". Europeans, at least, pronounce "i" as Italians do. I think my Latin teacher in high school did too - she was Italian. In Danish people say "tri-colores". Carol From dkramb@badbear.com Thu Jul 14 18:31:32 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20050714183044.01a859b8@pop.bizland.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: botany book and pronunciation Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:31:54 -0400 At 06:09 PM 7/14/2005, you wrote: >At 23:31 13-07-2005, Judy Glattstein wrote: > >in 2002, and gave a small lecture at the ISU meeting. After which I was > >gently chided for pronouncing it Viola tri-color, when of course, I was > >told, it should have been Viola tree-color. O.K. My ego doesn't bruise > >quite that easily. > > > >Judy in humid and thunderstormy New Jersey > >_______________________________________________ > >I also have wondered about the "pin" pronunciation of "i". Europeans, at >least, pronounce "i" as Italians do. I think my Latin teacher in high >school did too - she was Italian. > >In Danish people say "tri-colores". > >Carol Do you pronounce it Vee-ola or Vie-ola? :-) Dennis in Cincy (where he'd pronounce it Vie-ola tri-color). From writserv@nbnet.nb.ca Thu Jul 14 22:45:46 2005 Message-Id: From: Rand Nicholson Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:52:35 -0300 When you consider what the roots of even small, "fragile" plants can to to asphalt and concrete and natural rock, it is not in the least incredible that a large mature bulb in a porous medium can move itself to its desired level. Most of them have had millenia to work out various strategies to accomplish this. In my climate, any outdoor bulbs are left to fend for themselves and, often, I find that transplanting them involves a lot more digging than the original planting. Rand In The Great White North >I'm with Diana here. I tuned in late, went back and am amazed to find that >some astute growers don't think bulbs can pull themselves down. Maybe our >conditions are very different! From totototo@pacificcoast.net Thu Jul 14 23:23:41 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: More pronounciation Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:35:14 -0700 On 13 Jul 05 at 16:12, Leo A. Martin wrote: > If only my keyboard had the phonemes used by linguists rather > than the Latin alphabet. I am quite certain that you can remap your keyboard in conjunction with an IPA font and have your wish come true. Please, no complaints afterwards that no one can understand the text emanating from your computer. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From eagle85@flash.net Thu Jul 14 23:46:39 2005 Message-Id: From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Memb Directory Contact Info correction Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:45:08 -0700 Mine arrived today. It looks and is 1st. class!!! Doug Westfall From eagle85@flash.net Thu Jul 14 23:47:56 2005 Message-Id: From: Douglas Westfall Subject: New Group for Haemanthus and Scadoxus Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:46:25 -0700 J.E. ShieldsDoug Westfall jshields104@insightbb.com1111 Claiborne Dr. Long Beach, CA Jim Shields, Are you charging for "joining" this new group? Doug From Zonneveld@rulbim.leidenuniv.nl Fri Jul 15 03:56:20 2005 Message-Id: <42D78838.30404.191BE3@localhost> From: "zonneveld" Subject: pronounciation another approach Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:56:08 +0200 Some facts that might not be clear to all. European languages have about 25 letters and about 35 sounds Most languages have about 40 different ways to write these 35 sounds. English has more than thousand yes 1000! ways to write these same 35 sounds . That is why you dont know how to pronounce an english word you never have seen before. That is why you even dont know how to pronounce a simple word like Sloane.Even a word that has not be seen before is usually easy to pronounce for all the other european languages. Ben J.M.Zonneveld Institute of Biology,Leiden University, Clusius lab Wassenaarse weg 64, 2333 AL Leiden, The Netherlands Zonneveld@rulbim.Leidenuniv.NL Fax: +31-71-5274999. min temp -10C (15F) From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Fri Jul 15 04:14:38 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050715101315.01ee8940@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: botany book and pronunciation Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:14:19 +0200 At 00:31 15-07-2005, Dennis Kramb wrote: >Do you pronounce it Vee-ola or Vie-ola? :-) > >Dennis in Cincy (where he'd pronounce it Vie-ola tri-color). > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php "vee-ola". Always the Italian pronunciation, which most people believe to be the Latin pronunciation as well, I guess. Carol From julian_slade@bigpond.com Fri Jul 15 09:01:48 2005 Message-Id: <003901c5893d$5cfd6d50$fa898b90@Laptop> From: "Julian Slade" Subject: New species Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:25:53 +0930 Dear all The lastest edition of a major botanical journal, Novon volume 15 number 2, features three new species of popular genera. Abstracts of the articles follow. pp. 279-281: Calochortus mendozae Espejo, López-Ferrari & Ceja, a new species from the municipality of San Nicolás Tolentino in the state of San Luis Potosí, Mexico, is described and illustrated. The new species grows on gypseous soils in xerophytic scrub. Calochortus mendozae is placed in section Cyclobothra subsection Ghiesbreghtiani and is closely related to C. hintonii Bullock ex Ownbey, with which it is compared. pp. 324-326: A new species from Chile, Leucocoryne talinensis, is described and illustrated. It is known from Talinay and Fray Jorge in Limarí Province, from roadsides and adjacent fields. Its chromosome number and relationship to the most closely related species are discussed. pp. 354-357: Tigridia suarezii (Iridaceae, Tigridieae) is a new species from Mexico. Its distinguishing features are the dark purple, almost black color of the spreading tepal limbs and the white to cream floral cup with dark purple spots and stripes. It is morphologically similar to T. alpestris subsp. obtusa and T. venusta, from which it differs in the more robust habit of the plant, the shape, length, and width of the tepals, and the length of the anther, filament column, and style branches. Tigridia suarezii and T. venusta inhabit the understory in pine-oak forests in an altitudinal range from 2080 to 2800 m, whereas T. alpestris subsp. obtusa grows on exposed rocky slopes above 3000 m. Tigridia suarezii is known only from the state of Jalisco. And in Novon volume 15 number 1 pp. 168-172: Freesia marginata (Iridaceae: Crocoideae) is a new species from the Breede River valley near Worcester in Western Cape Province, South Africa. A local endemic of succulent karoo shrubland, it resembles F. caryophyllacea in its flowers and short, prostrate leaves, but it is distinguished from all other species of Freesia by the leathery, somewhat glaucous leaves with a prominent submarginal vein. The four species previously placed in the genus Anomatheca are recognized in Freesia as the new subgenus Anomatheca. Three of the species, F. grandiflora, F. laxa, and F. verrucosa, are segregated into section Anomatheca, and F. viridis is placed in the new section Alatae. Cheers Julian Slade From jshields@indy.net Fri Jul 15 08:56:13 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050715075016.00b019d8@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:56:17 -0500 Hi all, I agree with Rand. Many years of planting Ismene and Hymenocallis out in the garden in spring and digging them in the autumn demonstrated unequivocally to me that they do pull themselves down, in just one season of growth. Crinums planted 8 to 12 inches deep two years ago were dug up sitting at a depth of 18 to 20 inches (depths to base of bulbs). No big deal. Remember that wet earth is a viscous liquid. Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) At 11:52 PM 7/14/2005 -0300, Rand wrote: >When you consider what the roots of even small, "fragile" plants can to to >asphalt and concrete and natural rock, it is not in the least incredible >that a large mature bulb in a porous medium can move itself to its desired >level. Most of them have had millenia to work out various strategies to >accomplish this. > >In my climate, any outdoor bulbs are left to fend for themselves and, >often, I find that transplanting them involves a lot more digging than the >original planting. > >Rand In The Great White North ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jshields@indy.net Fri Jul 15 09:05:17 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050715080007.02c85cc0@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: New Group for Haemanthus and Scadoxus Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:05:26 -0500 At 08:46 PM 7/14/2005 -0700, you wrote: >J.E. ShieldsDoug Westfall jshields104@insightbb.com1111 Claiborne Dr. Long >Beach, CA > >Jim Shields, > >Are you charging for "joining" this new group? > >Doug Sure, Doug! As much as the market will bear: How about regular expert advice from you to the rest of us members? For less expert members, their dues are to occasionally ask leading questions. See us at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/haemanthus/ Jim Shields Haemanthus-Scadoxus moderator ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From dells@voicenet.com Fri Jul 15 15:15:26 2005 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: About Pacific BX 95 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:14:33 -0400 Dear All, I will be packing the parcels for BX 95 this weekend. They should go out on Monday. Please note a new address to which you should send your payment. Enjoy, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From toadlily@olywa.net Fri Jul 15 16:27:29 2005 Message-Id: <42D81F21.8010106@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:40:01 -0700 Hey, here's an idea! Why don't some of us plant some well marked, bulb sized and shaped rocks while we're planting various bulbs. In a year or two, we can check back to see where the rocks are in the soil. Perhaps one could glue some wire or cord to the bottoms of some to simulate non-contractile roots. Unless the rocks sprout real roots, this should give us a good baseline of the movement of objects in the soil, something to which to compare the bulbs' movement. Also, there is the as yet unmentioned effects of the plant stem itself, during the growing season. The stem can have a considerable percentage of the weight of the total plant, pressing downward on the bulb. Also, when the wind blows, there is a rocking action produced at the bulb, at least to some degree. Just some thoughts Dave 7A- Tumwater, Washington, where we have now had our summer ... yesterday (sigh) From kellyo@wetrock.com Fri Jul 15 16:53:31 2005 Message-Id: <42D7C12E.14751.1289F1F9@localhost> From: "Kelly O'Neill" Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:59:10 -0700 > The stem can have a considerable percentage of > the weight of the total plant, pressing downward on the bulb. Also, > when the wind blows, there is a rocking action produced at the bulb, > at least to some degree. OK, I am leaning towards the "bulbs do move" camp now. Another mechanism for movement could be bulb shape and size changes. Like a worm or snake in slow motion the shrinking and expanding of bulb parts due to moisture variation or "intentional" undulations could be very effective (especially under the weight of the plant). Kelly O'Neill Wet Rock Gardens Flower Farm U-Pick and more at the farm (open 9 to 6, Sun, Wed and Fri - from March thru Halloween): 2877 N 19th Street Springfield, Oregon 97477 To contact us: * Business Office for mail or by appointment only: gardens@wetrock.com * 1950 Yolanda AVE http://www.wetrock.com * Springfield, Oregon 97477 (541) 746-4444 * From leo1010@attglobal.net Fri Jul 15 22:05:35 2005 Message-Id: <42D85C20.3080207@attglobal.net> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: The Orchidaceae are Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:00:16 -0600 > The Orchidaceae are one of the worst-offenders > in the plant kingdom when it comes to > changes in classification or taxonomy. The orchids don't have any idea of what we are calling them and so far as I know no orchid plant has EVER been an author on a published recombination. It is the ORCHID BOTANISTS who are doing all the changing. For that matter, the plants don't think of themselves as species. The pollinators aren't careful to fly only to flowers humans would consider of the same species. "Species" is a concept we made up to try and name a concept we observed. By the way, at the upcoming Convention of the Cactus and Succulent Society of America in Scottsdale, one of the speakers will be Chuck Hanson of Arid Lands Greenhouses talking about succulent orchids from Madagascar. Of course, there will be an enormous plant sale, open to the public free with no need to register for the Convention. (The plants aren't free.) Some of these little Oeceoclades orchids grow in leaf litter with buried pseudobulbs and exposed leaves, so they might be considered bulbous or hypogaeal. http://www.cssainc.org/convent.html Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From eagle85@flash.net Fri Jul 15 23:42:14 2005 Message-Id: From: Douglas Westfall Subject: New Group for Haemanthus and Scadoxus Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:40:41 -0700 J.E. ShieldsDoug Westfall jshields@indy.net1111 Claiborne Dr. Long Beach, CA > > Jim Shields > Haemanthus-Scadoxus moderator > Jim, The thing wont let me in!! Doug From writserv@nbnet.nb.ca Sat Jul 16 01:34:09 2005 Message-Id: From: Rand Nicholson Subject: Pulling down to correct level Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:40:56 -0300 Dave: Rocks and stones tend to rise to the surface of most strata due to the constant settling and degradation of the medium. It is simple physics. Small stuff goes down (compacts) and large stuff goes up. Any dirt farmer knows this. Plants, on the other hand, are living motile organisms that respond to their environments. I am afraid that your rock idea would be, especially in frost or freezing prone climates, fairly predictable, whereas your bulbs may be doing something quite different. The plant stem concept is intriguing, however, especially the bit about the transference of motion from wind action. Never gave a lot of thought to that before in this particular context, but now that I do, it makes sense when one considers that most plants react to regular wind by making more and tougher roots and stronger stems. Vibrating a bulb that wants to remain stable (again, in a fluid medium, to paraphrase Jim Shields) may well encourage the bulb to craft its toughest roots and, also, drift downwards depending upon shifting soil densities. Any thoughts on this, anyone? Rand I.T.G.W. North >Hey, here's an idea! > Why don't some of us plant some well marked, bulb sized and shaped rocks >while we're planting various bulbs. In a year or two, we can check back to see >where the rocks are in the soil. Perhaps one could glue some wire or cord to >the bottoms of some to simulate non-contractile roots. Unless the rocks sprout >real roots, this should give us a good baseline of the movement of objects in >the soil, something to which to compare the bulbs' movement. > > Also, there is the as yet unmentioned effects of the plant stem itself, >during the growing season. The stem can have a considerable percentage of the >weight of the total plant, pressing downward on the bulb. Also, when the wind >blows, there is a rocking action produced at the bulb, at least to some degree. > >Just some thoughts > >Dave >7A- Tumwater, Washington, where we have now had our summer ... yesterday (sigh) > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From paige@hillkeep.ca Sat Jul 16 03:06:43 2005 Message-Id: <01d001c589d4$e4b38710$a28157d1@m6u3j5> From: "Pacific Rim" Subject: Experiment Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:06:20 -0700 Why not design an experiment, and publish the results? Identify and describe all hypotheses. Run trials where they can easily be monitored by members -- perhaps at Telos Rare Bulbs. Pay Diana or an assistant a pittance to keep records. Two outfits that might be willing to co-sponsor: IPPS (International Plant Propagators Society) and Kew, which runs trials on all kinds of things. Sorry if this seems to take you for granted, Diana. I mean on the contrary to indicate that you have a lot of bulbs! I have a lot, too -- a different range -- but I am less well organized (I sense) and I am in Canada. Paige Woodward paige@hillkeep.ca www.hillkeep.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rand Nicholson" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 10:40 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Pulling down to correct level > Dave: > > Rocks and stones tend to rise to the surface of most strata due to the > constant settling and degradation of the medium. It is simple physics. > Small stuff goes down (compacts) and large stuff goes up. Any dirt farmer > knows this. Plants, on the other hand, are living motile organisms that > respond to their environments. > > I am afraid that your rock idea would be, especially in frost or freezing > prone climates, fairly predictable, whereas your bulbs may be doing > something quite different. > > The plant stem concept is intriguing, however, especially the bit about > the transference of motion from wind action. Never gave a lot of thought > to that before in this particular context, but now that I do, it makes > sense when one considers that most plants react to regular wind by making > more and tougher roots and stronger stems. Vibrating a bulb that wants to > remain stable (again, in a fluid medium, to paraphrase Jim Shields) may > well encourage the bulb to craft its toughest roots and, also, drift > downwards depending upon shifting soil densities. > > Any thoughts on this, anyone? > > Rand I.T.G.W. North > > > >>Hey, here's an idea! >> Why don't some of us plant some well marked, bulb sized and shaped >> rocks >>while we're planting various bulbs. In a year or two, we can check back >>to see >>where the rocks are in the soil. Perhaps one could glue some wire or cord >>to >>the bottoms of some to simulate non-contractile roots. Unless the rocks >>sprout >>real roots, this should give us a good baseline of the movement of objects >>in >>the soil, something to which to compare the bulbs' movement. >> >> Also, there is the as yet unmentioned effects of the plant stem itself, >>during the growing season. The stem can have a considerable percentage of >>the >>weight of the total plant, pressing downward on the bulb. Also, when the >>wind >>blows, there is a rocking action produced at the bulb, at least to some >>degree. >> >>Just some thoughts >> >>Dave >>7A- Tumwater, Washington, where we have now had our summer ... yesterday >>(sigh) >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>pbs mailing list >>pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >>http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sun Jul 17 12:43:25 2005 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Lycoris season Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:47:37 -0500 Dear All; Just a note that Lycoris season has begun again with the appearance of a couple L. sanguinea in various parts of the garden. Not the biggest or showiest species, but its distinctly orange flowers are obvious at first appearance. Even in out heat (95 F again today) and no rain for about 2 weeks, these seemingly delicate flowers manage to make their way up and bloom quite normally. This is a Japanee species that is often available from mass marketing bulb sellers. Get the form kiusiana if possible since it has bigger flowers than typical. They are cheap and quite a boost in the heat of summer. Anyone else have Lycoris in bloom yet? More to come. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jul 17 13:44:54 2005 Message-Id: <42DA9913.8030003@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Lycoris season Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:44:51 -0400 Jim: No sign of any lycoris blooms here so far. I usually see L. chinensis first. Arnold New Jersey steamy today From buj.joschko@freenet.de Mon Jul 18 02:35:18 2005 Message-Id: From: "Hans und Babs Joschko" Subject: Zephyrantes unkown Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:35:16 +0200 Hello Rainlily friends , by the friendly assistance of Susan was to be presented it to me possible two pictures of me unknown a Zephyranthes kind on the Mystery side. I have these plants in the year 2003 of friends receive by Argentina traveled. These plants flowered now few days ago for the first time. Me is not clear which kind it concerns here, but perhaps someone has an idea here in this group - around letters I would be pleased. I could produce some seeds by pollinate and am gladly ready something to interested plant friends to deliver - please you write me down therefore personally. These plants were collected in the northern provinces by Argentina, in the border region between Salta and Tucuman on a high of 1100 m. http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/files/Mystery_Zeph_specRS1_HJ.jpg http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/files/Mystery_Zeph_specRS_HJ.jpg Many greetings Hans From ang.por@alice.it Mon Jul 18 14:16:16 2005 Message-Id: <003001c58b81$dfb12de0$ef47b650@t7t2y7> From: "Angelo Porcelli" Subject: Lycoris season Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:17:16 +0200 Jim, here I have squamigera coming up in two parts of the garden (sun and shade). We were blessed from a good rainfall ten days ago, but temps are on 100F regularly. No chinesis nor sanguinea yet. Angelo Porcelli south of Italy From hyline@tampabay.rr.com Mon Jul 18 06:51:31 2005 Message-Id: <000401c58b86$aa1e5400$6600a8c0@Hymenocallis> From: "Kevin D. Preuss" Subject: Zephyrantes unkown Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 06:51:33 -0400 Are there 3 different lenghts of stamens (not zephyranthes, but habranthus), or are all 6 equal as in Zephyranthes. Are the flowers completely erect (radial symmetry) or do they lean upwards (bilateral symmetry) ? Kevin Preuss From buj.joschko@freenet.de Mon Jul 18 07:08:38 2005 Message-Id: From: "Hans und Babs Joschko" Subject: Zephyrantes unkown Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:08:37 +0200 I'm not shure about the length of the stames -but I'm shure this is Zephyrantes . The flowers are complet erect . Hans -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]Im Auftrag von Kevin D. Preuss Gesendet: Montag, 18. Juli 2005 12:52 An: Pacific Bulb Society Betreff: Re: [pbs] Zephyrantes unkown Are there 3 different lenghts of stamens (not zephyranthes, but habranthus), or are all 6 equal as in Zephyranthes. Are the flowers completely erect (radial symmetry) or do they lean upwards (bilateral symmetry) ? Kevin Preuss _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From ggroiti@mail.agro.uba.ar Mon Jul 18 09:30:24 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20050718102812.01ed74d8@pop3.agro.uba.ar> From: German Roitman Subject: Zephyrantes unkown Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:30:17 -0300 Hi all: There are stamens of two different length of stamens, this species is Zephyranthes mesochloa, that can have white or pinkish flowers. Best wishes Germán At 08:08 18/07/2005, you wrote: >I'm not shure about the length of the stames -but I'm shure this is >Zephyrantes . The flowers are complet erect . >Hans > > >-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- >Von: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]Im >Auftrag von Kevin D. Preuss >Gesendet: Montag, 18. Juli 2005 12:52 >An: Pacific Bulb Society >Betreff: Re: [pbs] Zephyrantes unkown > >Are there 3 different lenghts of stamens (not zephyranthes, but habranthus), >or are all 6 equal as in Zephyranthes. Are the flowers completely erect >(radial symmetry) or do they lean upwards (bilateral symmetry) ? >Kevin Preuss > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: 16/07/2005 _________________________________________ Ing. Agr. MSc. Germán Roitman mailto:roitman@mail.agro.uba.ar Cátedra de Jardinería Director de la Carrera Técnica de Jardinería Facultad de Agronomia. Universidad de Buenos Aires _________________________________________ From jyourch@nc.rr.com Mon Jul 18 10:32:12 2005 Message-Id: <200c930200aba2.200aba2200c930@southeast.rr.com> From: jyourch@nc.rr.com Subject: New Crinum photos on wiki Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:32:10 -0400 Hi all, I added new Crinum photos to wiki. All of the new photos were taken by Alani Davis. If interested, please make use of the following links. Added Crinum zeylanicum to Crinum page. See http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Crinum Added hybrids '9 Stripes', 'Candy Ruffles', 'Claude Davis', and 'Spring Joy' to Crinum Hybrids page. See http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/CrinumHybrids Regards, Jay From msittner@mcn.org Mon Jul 18 10:48:43 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050718072435.033c35c0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Zephyranthes mesochloa Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:34:47 -0700 Dear Hans, A number of years ago when some of us in Mediterranean climates (especially those with cool summers) were trying to figure out how to get rain lilies to bloom Alberto wrote about what he referred to as "Pampas bulbs" including Z. mesochloa. I am including his quote as it may help you know how to grow them. This species is hardier than some he said which would fit with the higher elevation. From Alberto: "Those I dub "Pampas bulbs" lives in a region where winters are cooler (neither cotton not sugarcane could be grown here in the open) but subject all of them to the same rainfall pattern: year round with a dryish February. If you can give them a hot dryish period in late summer they can flower regularly (of course if you are not growing them in Anchorage!)." He included Zephyrantes candida in that list which is one I do well with since it is growing in a Meyer lemon tub with a lot of water. Some of the other in his list seem capable of flowering with a long drought for me (Herbertia lahue, Ipheion uniflorum, Nothoscordum dialystemon) and others just don't flower well at all (Habranthus tubispathus, Rhodophiala bifida). Some of themAt 10:30 AM 7/18/05 -0300, you wrote: >mesochloa From btankers@cbgnt.chicagobotanic.org Mon Jul 18 11:10:23 2005 Message-Id: <52857FDB394B7E45BA1F2E60D7313E2A0182BDB3@cbgmail.chicagobotanic.org> From: "Boyce Tankersley" Subject: Lycoris season Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:13:53 -0500 Hi Jim: Just returned from a vacation to visit relatives in New Mexico. Lycoris squamigera in full bloom in Las Cruces, New Mexico. USDA zone 7, about 4,000 feet elevation. They average about 8" of rainfall per year but these plants were growing in cultivated flower beds. Boyce Tankersley btankers@chicagobotanic.org -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of James Waddick Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 11:48 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Lycoris season Dear All; Just a note that Lycoris season has begun again with the appearance of a couple L. sanguinea in various parts of the garden. Not the biggest or showiest species, but its distinctly orange flowers are obvious at first appearance. Even in out heat (95 F again today) and no rain for about 2 weeks, these seemingly delicate flowers manage to make their way up and bloom quite normally. This is a Japanee species that is often available from mass marketing bulb sellers. Get the form kiusiana if possible since it has bigger flowers than typical. They are cheap and quite a boost in the heat of summer. Anyone else have Lycoris in bloom yet? More to come. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From buj.joschko@freenet.de Mon Jul 18 14:08:00 2005 Message-Id: From: "Hans und Babs Joschko" Subject: Zephyrantes unkown Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:07:56 +0200 Hola German , Thank you for determining this plant . Do you have maybe a picture of Z. mesochloa ? I have found in my papers only a description of Z. mesochloa in "Amaryllidaceae" from Arroyo/ Leuenberger - there is given : Argentina: Jujuy, San Lorenzo . This is some Km from this location who comes my plants. I also grow seedlings of Z. mesochloa from seed from AGS -they looks a little bit other ( the leaves are narrow by my plants ) -but this is maybe the natural variation . With best wishes Hans From totototo@pacificcoast.net Mon Jul 18 14:33:22 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: New Group for Haemanthus and Scadoxus Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:46:13 -0700 On 15 Jul 05 at 8:05, J.E. Shields wrote: > See us at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/haemanthus/ May I voice an objection to the creation of such specialized groups? They do no one any favor. Most of us already subscribe to enough yahoo groups and mailing lists that we're not about to subscribe to yet another. If your new group is successful it bleeds discussion off from more general groups, yet it may not actually attract the real experts and enthusiasts. It's an unnecessary balkanization of the internet, I think. Unquestionably a mistake. Sure, if the pbs list were overwhelmed with torrents of discussion of these two genera, a new yahoo group might be in order, but not as things stand. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From jshields@indy.net Mon Jul 18 15:16:34 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050718141027.01e1cff8@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: New Group for Haemanthus and Scadoxus Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:16:44 -0500 Hi all, It's obvious that other groups were not fulfilling the wishes of some Haemanthus and Scadoxus enthusiasts. The same applies to the new Crinum group as well. New groups are created all the time. Unneeded groups wither and die. That's life. New Haemanthus & Scadoxus group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/haemanthus/ New Crinum group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Crinum/ Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Mon Jul 18 16:21:38 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050718221930.01e5e618@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Crinum Zeylanicum Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:21:18 +0200 I wonder whether someone at some time bred this crinum with a white amaryllis to get the striped amaryllises? I know that if I had one of these crinums nothing would be able to stop me trying this! Carol From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Mon Jul 18 16:51:36 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050718224716.01e4dbf0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:51:16 +0200 I have just looked at all the amaryllis pictures uploaded by Michael Mace. In Europe there are no amaryllis with yellow centers. They are definitely green, unless the green has been bred out (I prefer the green centers to pure white or red). I don't believe I have seen a pink amaryllis here. A lady nearby once got an amaryllis with 10 blossoms and it got in the local paper, it was so unusual. Generally they get the usual four and the Danish name for amaryllis is four corners. Once I had one with four blossoms and then the flower stem continued and at the top it had four more! That was great! So my amaryllis are very different indeed! Carol From jimlykos@optusnet.com.au Mon Jul 18 19:14:06 2005 Message-Id: <006101c58bee$ab3f8030$b3d1eddc@AMARYLLIS> From: "Jim Lykos" Subject: Crinum Zeylanicum Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:16:03 +1000 Hi Carol, Nature has beaten us in making two of the most spectacular natural Crinum hybrids we know with C. zeylanicum as a pollen parent. Both of the tropical hybrids Crinum amabile (asiaticum x zeylanicum) and C. augustum (possibly C. douglasii (pedunculatum) x zeylanicum) were found in the Malay-Indonesian region. The main limitation in growing C. zeylanicum is that it is a tropical Crinum that is rare in collections. Cheers Jim Lykos Blue Mountains Australia From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Jul 18 20:03:31 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:03:30 +0000 >I have just looked at all the amaryllis pictures uploaded by Michael Mace. > >In Europe there are no amaryllis with yellow centers. They are definitely >green, unless the green has been bred out (I prefer the green centers to >pure white or red). > >I don't believe I have seen a pink amaryllis here. > >A lady nearby once got an amaryllis with 10 blossoms and it got in the >local paper, it was so unusual. Generally they get the usual four and the >Danish name for amaryllis is four corners. > >Once I had one with four blossoms and then the flower stem continued and at >the top it had four more! That was great! > >So my amaryllis are very different indeed! > >Carol Now look at the hybrid HIPPEASTRUM images! Best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Consigue aquí las mejores y mas recientes ofertas de trabajo en América Latina y USA: http://latam.msn.com/empleos/ From ggroiti@mail.agro.uba.ar Mon Jul 18 20:29:02 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20050718212539.01ed76f8@pop3.agro.uba.ar> From: German Roitman Subject: Zephyrantes unkown Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:29:02 -0300 Hello Hans: I will put some pics in the wiki tomorrow, anyway Z. mesochloa has been described for Jujuy but is very common from the north to the center of Argentina with a very big distribution, along this there are some variations that make some botanist described new species but they all belong to Z. mesochloa. Best wishes Germán At 15:07 18/07/2005, you wrote: >Hola German , >Thank you for determining this plant . >Do you have maybe a picture of Z. mesochloa ? >I have found in my papers only a description of Z. mesochloa in >"Amaryllidaceae" from Arroyo/ Leuenberger - there is given : Argentina: >Jujuy, San Lorenzo . >This is some Km from this location who comes my plants. >I also grow seedlings of Z. mesochloa from seed from AGS -they looks a >little bit other ( the leaves are narrow by my plants ) -but this is maybe >the natural variation . >With best wishes >Hans > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: 16/07/2005 _________________________________________ Ing. Agr. MSc. Prof. Germán Roitman mailto:roitman@mail.agro.uba.ar Cátedra de Jardinería Director de la Carrera Técnica de Jardinería Facultad de Agronomia. Universidad de Buenos Aires _________________________________________ From msittner@mcn.org Mon Jul 18 20:50:59 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050718172532.02c324f0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:38:46 -0700 Dear Carol, I keep wondering if when you refer to Amaryllis if what you are really meaning is Hippeastrum. Amaryllis is a common name often used for Hippeastrum. The Amaryllis Mike Mace put on the wiki were hybrids that Les Hanibal created from Amaryllis belladonna which is a South African plant. Amaryllis belladonna is a late summer early fall blooming plant that sends us a stalk before the leaves appear after a period of drought. This is why some people refer to it as a Naked Lady. When people used this name on our list there were some people questioning that term since it is a common name for other plants like Lycoris. On our list we generally refer to plants by their botanical names. Since we are a world wide group and common names are not always the same around the world, we hope to know what people are talking about by sticking for the most part to botanical names. Of course if the botanical names are changed all the time, that doesn't always work. I think Hippeastrum was once considered Amaryllis so that may be the source of the confusion. Look at our Hippeastrum wiki pages and see if the illustrations on those page are the plants you are talking about when you write about the Amaryllis you grow. Mary Sue From Antennaria@aol.com Mon Jul 18 21:27:54 2005 Message-Id: <1a6.3b604f60.300db112@aol.com> From: Antennaria@aol.com Subject: allium macranthum Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:27:46 EDT Sorry Arnold, but your Allium "macranthum" is a form of Allium cernuum. I can write more about the differences between the two species after my currunt bout with illness, as I'm on intravenous antibiotics after a flea bite at work last Wendesday; the severity of the inflamation and associated malaise if beyond belief. Mark McDonough Pepperell, Massachusetts, United States antennaria@aol.com "New England" USDA Zone 5 ============================================== >> web site under construction - http://www.PlantBuzz.com << alliums, bulbs, penstemons, hardy hibiscus, western american alpines, iris, plants of all types! From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Mon Jul 18 21:45:33 2005 Message-Id: <005201c58c03$88a62eb0$a1daf7a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: Telos catalogue Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:45:23 -0700 If anyone did not receive a Telos Rare Bulbs printed catalogue and would like one, please contact me privately. Diana Telos Rare Bulbs rarebulbs@earthlink.net From arnold@nj.rr.com Mon Jul 18 21:52:36 2005 Message-Id: <42DC5CDE.7040102@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: allium macranthum Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:52:30 -0400 Mark: First I hope your bout with the nasty bug resolves itself quickly. I have worked in acute care in a hospital as a physical therapist and have seen the effects of some of these antibiotics. They are necessary but can leave the patient extremely weakened. I was hoping that if I had the wrong species again you would comment. These I got form a bulb dealer. I have another batch from Pacific Rim that has yet to flower and looks very different. The leaves are a lighter green and keeled at the base. One can only hope. Hope you are up and around real soon. Arnold From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Jul 18 22:42:41 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1pcug0@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:42:31 -0400 Mary Sue wrote: " I think Hippeastrum was once considered Amaryllis so that may be the source of the confusion." That's my recollection, too, Mary Sue. I know a bit about the history of this particular nomenclatural fiasco, but would someone in the group with a precise knowledge of what happened please post a refresher? I've heard, for instance, that among other things someone purportedly switched or otherwise tampered with one of the Linnaean types. Everyone likes a good story; fill us in on the details, please. Jim McKenney From myke@new.co.za Tue Jul 19 01:09:16 2005 Message-Id: <006401c58c20$0fee8860$fc7bfea9@mykecbcb148b69> From: "Myke Ashley-Cooper" Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:09:25 +0200 Meerow, A. W., Van Scheepen, J. & Dutilh, J. H. A.: Transfers from Amaryllis to Hippeastrum (Amaryllidaceae). - Taxon 46: 15-19. 1997. - ISSN 0040-0262. 42 species transfers are made from Amaryllis to Hippeastrum in accord with the decision, at the Fourteenth International Botanical Congress in 1987, on the application of the former name to a South African genus. This completes the validation of combinations required in Hippeastrum, and will thus aid nomenclatural clarity and enable botanists and horticulturists to refer to these species by their correct names. And blah, blah, blah . . . . . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim McKenney To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:42 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Amaryllis images Mary Sue wrote: " I think Hippeastrum was once considered Amaryllis so that may be the source of the confusion." That's my recollection, too, Mary Sue. I know a bit about the history of this particular nomenclatural fiasco, but would someone in the group with a precise knowledge of what happened please post a refresher? I've heard, for instance, that among other things someone purportedly switched or otherwise tampered with one of the Linnaean types. Everyone likes a good story; fill us in on the details, please. Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From buj.joschko@freenet.de Tue Jul 19 04:22:37 2005 Message-Id: From: "Hans und Babs Joschko" Subject: Zephyranthes mesochloa Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:22:38 +0200 Dear Mary Sue , Thank you for your informations , I have not a problem with treatment this bulbs -they grow ( for me ) very easy - I give them the same treatment like my Cacti from the argentian and bolivian andes - because they grow on the same locations . This plants grow succsessfull and flowering quick raised from seed . A problem ( for me ) is more the treatment of the wintergrowing bulbs . I will send soon some pictures more from the Andes ( if Susan have time to help me ) . I try in this time to send a E- mail to John Bryan - but all my mails come back ( Mail delivery failed ) , has anybody a idea what is wrong ? Many greetings from Germany Hans From buj.joschko@freenet.de Tue Jul 19 04:22:38 2005 Message-Id: From: "Hans und Babs Joschko" Subject: Zephyrantes unkown Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:22:39 +0200 Hello Germán , Thank you for sending the pics . Do you think that is Zeph. saltensis ( I send earlier a pic of them ), is also a synonym of Z. mesochloa ? Here comes some questions more concerning Zephyranthes : I have received in this year some bulbs of a ( Zephyranthes maybe ) also from Argentina - collected for many years in Cordoba ( Sierra Grande ) - this plants has flowered early in this year and it was not possibly to make a picture for me ( maybe next year ) - this plants flowering yellow . Any idea ? Further I have some bulbs from a other friend w.c. from Venezuela ( 1750 m) , flower pink , 8 cm diameter , stems 20 cm high - Zephyranthes . Also ideas ? I have some bulbs ( bougth here in a gardencenter ) they looks very similar and these was labelled as Zeph. robustus - I think this name must be wrong . The strange is all this plants from Venezuela and from the garencenter makes never seeds . I will send soon also some pics made from a friend of mine from Argenina and Bolivia . Many greetings from Germany Hans From dejager@bulbargence.com Tue Jul 19 03:38:14 2005 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: Lycoris season Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:40:50 +0200 Bonjour Jim, Just accidentally cut a L squamigera in two: the flower but has mmoved into the 'neck' of the bulb. Flowering in 10 days? Greetings Lauw le 18/07/05 17:13, Boyce Tankersley à btankers@chicagobotanic.org a écrit : > Just returned from a vacation to visit relatives in New Mexico. Lycoris > squamigera in full bloom in Las Cruces, New Mexico. USDA zone 7, about 4,000 > feet elevation. They average about 8" of rainfall per year but these plants > were growing in cultivated flower beds. > Anyone else have Lycoris in bloom yet? Lauw de Jager http://www.bulbargence.com South of France (zone 8 Olivier) From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Tue Jul 19 04:50:29 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050719104708.01e4cd88@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:50:03 +0200 At 02:38 19-07-2005, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: >Dear Carol, > >I keep wondering if when you refer to Amaryllis if what you are really >meaning is Hippeastrum.Look at our Hippeastrum wiki pages and see if the illustrations on those >page are the plants you are talking about when you write about the >Amaryllis you grow. > >Mary Sue Absolutely! Now how was I to know? The orange one, hippeastrum petiolatum was the first one to be sold in Denmark. Then came the red ones, and now there are rose and striped. However, they are all very large and very Dutch! I think the hippeastrum cybister is the most beautiful flower found! Carol From jshields@indy.net Tue Jul 19 09:27:38 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050719081823.00b02748@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:27:50 -0500 Carol, Mary Sue, and all, As Myke has pointed out, Hippeastrum is the accepted botanical name now for plants whose origins go to South America. The so-called "Dutch Amaryllis" hybrids are all Hippeastrum hybrids. In the vernacular around the world, many people refer to commercial Hippeastrum hybrids as "amaryllis," while the botanical name Amaryllis denotes a genus endemic to Africa. For clarity, most of us prefer the botanical names. Vernacular or common names vary not only from language to language, but (in English at least) from country to country; and within the USA, it can vary from region to region. For example, my "Naked Lady" is Lycoris squamigera here in the Midwest. In the UK it might be a Colchicum. In California, it would be an Amaryllis or a Brunsvigia. I have heard plants in Lycoris referred to in various parts of the USA as "Surprise Lily," as "Hurricane Lily" as well as "Naked Lady." Common names are ambiguous at best, misleading at worst. Botanical names are certainly not perfect, but they will always lead you eventually to a specific kind of plant. Best regards, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Tue Jul 19 12:14:33 2005 Message-Id: <7a285e02cb8308187d76f3a5cff35545@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Lycoris season Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:14:31 -0700 Yes, I was surprised a couple of weeks ago to see a scape poking out of the pots of two of my Lycoris. They are both now in full bloom. One is L. ×haywardii. This is the first time it has bloomed for me. It looks surprisingly similar to L. sprengeri, but doesn't have nearly as much of the electric blue color--mostly being at the tips of the petals. The other is that L. haywardii × Clivia miniata supposed hybrid. It finally bloomed for me for the first time as well. It looks like an almost red color, but not intense, and it has the barest touch of the electric blue at the petal tips. (This would make it look more like the one that Lauw has bloomed rather than the one that Bill Dijk has bloomed.) Both of these were also obtained in one of Jim W.'s Chinese Lycoris offerings. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 On Jul 17, 2005, at 9:47 AM, James Waddick wrote: > Anyone else have Lycoris in bloom yet? From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Tue Jul 19 12:27:45 2005 Message-Id: <000c01c58c7e$b615ff30$8a5aa451@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: (Geen onderwerp) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:27:09 +0200 Hello, I reseived today my membership directory. Thank You, Marie-Paule Belgium From steve.burger@choa.org Tue Jul 19 13:03:05 2005 Message-Id: <0BAB7B6F7D5A53418C3B75FA01DE2BED0938AD20@CHOAMAIL4.choa.org> From: "Burger, Steve" Subject: Cardiocrinum cordatum Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:02:29 -0400 > I purchased a C. cordatum this past winter. It was smallish but great > looking. I planted it out early this spring and both the main plant > and several pups grew. After only a few weeks of growth the pups all > disappeared and the main plant showed its true colors, it began to > push up an inflorescence. Now it is blooming. > > Is it typical for the pups to have disappeared that quickly? Is it > likely that they are dead, and that when this plant finishes blooming > and the main bulb dies that this plant is dead? I feel lucky in some > respects to have paid so little for a flowering Cardiocrinum, but if > the plant is done, I don't feel so lucky:) > > Thanks, > > Steve From totototo@pacificcoast.net Tue Jul 19 13:00:12 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Cyclamen purpurascens Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:07:37 -0700 I grow many cyclamen species and at one time or another have grown every species except C. somalense. Many of them thrive with very little care in our climate, e.g. Cycleman hederifolium, C. coum, C. repandum, C. libanoticum, and C. pseudibericum. Even some rather tenderish species do pretty well. Cyclamen purpurascens has, however, proved to be very difficult in this climate. I have read postings from Chicago-area pbs-listers describing how well it grows there and been very jealous. A year or two ago I got some C.p. seedlings going for the Nth time, but when it came time to plant them out, I got smart and put them on the north side of the house, in a spot heavily shaded by other plants. This is in one of the few beds I give regular summer water. [Irregular or sporadic would be a more accurate description of my watering habits.] Lo and behold! this year I have flowers on my C.p. Good heavens! Will wonders never cease? -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From totototo@pacificcoast.net Tue Jul 19 13:00:14 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:07:37 -0700 On 18 Jul 05 at 22:42, Jim McKenney wrote: > Mary Sue wrote: " I think Hippeastrum was once considered > Amaryllis so that may be the source of the confusion." > > That's my recollection, too, Mary Sue. > > I know a bit about the history of this particular > nomenclatural fiasco, but would someone in the group with a > precise knowledge of what happened please post a refresher? > > I've heard, for instance, that among other things someone > purportedly switched or otherwise tampered with one of the > Linnaean types. > > Everyone likes a good story; fill us in on the details, > please. The key issue was "exactly what plant did Linnaeus give the name 'Amaryllis belladonna' to?" The type specimen is extant in the Linnean herbarium, but it wasn't clear what it was because the characters that distinguish Hippeastrum from Amaryllis were not ascertainable -- details of the inner floral parts, I suspect. My understanding is that the Linnean Society finally took the plunge and allowed the specimen to be dissected. It turned out to be (surprise!) what we've been calling Amaryllis belladonna all along. It had long since become clear that what is now called Hippeastrum was not the same genus as that represented by the taxon we call "Amaryllis belladonna", but there had been speculation that Linnaeus may have given the name Amaryllis belladonna to a hippeastrum. If this were true, then Hippeastrum would properly be Amaryllis, and what we call Amaryllis would be without a proper name. The dissection answered this question and thus stabilized the nomenclature. The reference to Meerow et al given by Myke Ashley-Cooper in his reply represents a consequence of the dissection and the confirmation that Amaryllis belladonna is, indeed, Amaryllis belladonna. This is all from memory. Confirmations, refutations, corrections, amendments, Bronx cheers, hisses, abusive name-calling, catcalls from the peanut gallery, and wild, unrestrained applause are all equally welcome. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada "Without coffee, one has no personality." From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 19 13:18:40 2005 Message-Id: <48ph3g$1srd40@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:18:35 -0400 I vote for unrestrained applause. Thanks, Roger. Jim McKenney From janemcgary@earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 14:03:58 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050719110225.01154558@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Cyclamen purpurascens Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:03:53 -0700 Rodger wrote: >Cyclamen purpurascens has, however, proved to be very difficult >in this climate. ... A year or two ago I got some C.p. seedlings going for >the Nth >time, but when it came time to plant them out, I got smart and >put them on the north side of the house, in a spot heavily >shaded by other plants. This is in one of the few beds I give >regular summer water. I live in a similar climate to Rodger's and had the same experience with C. purpurascens. However, my plants have never flowered as well as those grown in climates with more decided winter dormant periods. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue Jul 19 14:02:56 2005 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Lycoris season Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:05:14 -0500 >Bonjour Jim, >Just accidentally cut a L squamigera in two: the flower but has mmoved >into the 'neck' of the bulb. Flowering in 10 days? > Dear Lauw; Sounds like they are pretty sturdy for you. Even when you try to chop them up, they still bloom. Best Jim -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From boutin@goldrush.com Tue Jul 19 14:09:42 2005 Message-Id: <005301c58c8d$1ec68050$713d7143@homecomputer> From: "boutin" Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:10:17 -0700 > The key issue was "exactly what plant did Linnaeus give the > name 'Amaryllis belladonna' to?" The type specimen is extant in > the Linnean herbarium, but it wasn't clear what it was because > the characters that distinguish Hippeastrum from Amaryllis were > not ascertainable -- details of the inner floral parts, I > suspect. > > My understanding is that the Linnean Society finally took the > plunge and allowed the specimen to be dissected. It turned out > to be (surprise!) what we've been calling Amaryllis belladonna > all along. American botanists were mostly of the opinion that the Linnean type specimen for Amaryllis belladonna was referable to an American amaryllid. So Amaryllis belladonna in American collections and nursery trade was usually the bulb which is now identified as Hippeastrum puniceum. The South African Amaryllis belladonna, what is now recognized as Amaryllis belladonna, was known as Brunsvigia rosea in American collections and called "naked ladies' in California. Fred Boutin > From myke@new.co.za Tue Jul 19 14:45:48 2005 Message-Id: <00fc01c58c92$217ed040$fc7bfea9@mykecbcb148b69> From: "Myke Ashley-Cooper" Subject: Amaryllis images Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:46:07 +0200 Being a dopey sort of cartoonist, I suffer from forgetting and have just received some seeds from Daniel Carbonneau in Canada but can't remember what they are - because he sent them nameless. Daniel, if you belong to this list, please take pity on a cartoonist and tell me what these are and if I owe you some money! From toadlily@olywa.net Tue Jul 19 16:11:29 2005 Message-Id: <42DD6176.1080001@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Cyclamen purpurascens Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:24:22 -0700 I too am having my first flowering of C purpurascens this summer. Mine are fourth year seedlings, growing in a spot that only gets direct sun at mid-morning. They don't actually ever go completely dormant, as long as I remember to give them a bit of water occasionally. I followed the thread of advice that said plant them deeply, so that the tubers are between 2 and 3 inches down. The fragrance from the flowers is strong and rich, reminiscent of lilacs. I am very pleased!! Dave Brastow 7A - Tumwater, Washington. From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Jul 19 22:08:29 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1pqh9j@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Cardiocrinum cordatum Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:08:26 -0400 Steve, my plant of Cardiocrinum cordatum has bloomed here twice so far. It took a four year break between blooming events. Unlike your plant, mine has never shown pups around the blooming plant. The pups appear the next year. In my experience (which is not based on much experience at all), the non-flowering rosettes ("pups") die down sooner than the blooming rosettes. For instance, my plant which bloomed last year at this time has no live growth above ground. It was there earlier this year and has already died down for the year. Your pups are probably fine and I would not worry about them. And next year, the plant now in flower will probably provide one or two more. So be patient and keep us posted on how they do. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where the best advice I can give Steve is to let sleeping pups lie. From eagle85@flash.net Tue Jul 19 23:20:48 2005 Message-Id: From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:18:49 -0700 Now that I am "floating" some seeds and they ar sending out a root, how do I take care of them? What planting medium is best? Doug Westfall From thisisnotgonnawork@yahoo.com Tue Jul 19 23:26:14 2005 Message-Id: <20050720032614.62548.qmail@web52902.mail.yahoo.com> From: James Frelichowski Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Doug: move them to vermiculite first is my suggestion. Regular soil may be too heavy and kill them. James Frelichowski. Douglas Westfall wrote: Now that I am "floating" some seeds and they ar sending out a root, how do I take care of them? What planting medium is best? Doug Westfall _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page From jimlykos@optusnet.com.au Tue Jul 19 23:47:03 2005 Message-Id: <001901c58cdd$f718dcf0$b3d1eddc@AMARYLLIS> From: "Jim Lykos" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:49:00 +1000 Doug, In my conditions on the east coast of Australia - I get excellent results by using a squat pot 4 to 5 inches in diameter , a potting mix of composed pine bark fines mixed with about 20% propagation sand. I place the seed on this potting mix and the seed is then covered with about a quarter of an inch of pure propagation sand. By propagation sand I mean coarse sand most of which is in the 1mm to 3mm (up to 1/5 inch) that is usually quarried from sandstone or granite rock. Dont use perlite - hippeastrums appear sensitive to the added fluoride. Water with a light spray every 3 days during summer. Cheers Jim Lykos Blue Mountains Australia From myke@new.co.za Wed Jul 20 00:59:52 2005 Message-Id: <009e01c58ce7$ea9a6c50$fc7bfea9@mykecbcb148b69> From: "Myke Ashley-Cooper" Subject: Help please Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:00:08 +0200 I have received some unnamed seeds from Daniel Carbonneau in Canada. Only problem is that I don't know who he is but suspect these may be seeds of Lilium Pumilum I bought through eBay. Anyone know him? Thanks Myke From Roth@ukzn.ac.za Wed Jul 20 03:21:14 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rogan Roth" Subject: Lycoris flowering Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:20:53 +0200 Dear Lycoriphiles! While we're on the subject of Lycoris, how on earth do you get the ruddy things to flower? I've had bulbs of two species (ex. Korea) for nearly 8 years now without even a hint of a flower - they grow and multiply well, but flowering - not a chance! I think they are L. radiata and L. chinensis (??). Thanks a lot for the help and great discussions. Rogan in sunny South Africa (Zone 9 or 10). -------------------------------------------------------------------- Please find our disclaimer at http://www.ukzn.ac.za/disclaimer -------------------------------------------------------------------- <<<>>> From semper76fi@yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 09:36:13 2005 Message-Id: <20050720133613.3259.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> From: James Smith Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Upon a recommendation, I began using "Coco Peat" exclusively for my hippeastrum bulbs and seedlings and have enjoyed excellent results. It was also suggested that I water from the bottom when using this planting medium. James Smith Douglas Westfall wrote: Now that I am "floating" some seeds and they ar sending out a root, how do I take care of them? What planting medium is best? Doug Westfall _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Jul 20 09:57:56 2005 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Lycoris flowering Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:57:32 -0500 >While we're on the subject of Lycoris, how on earth do you get the >ruddy things to flower? I've had bulbs of two species (ex. Korea) for >nearly 8 years now without even a hint of a flower - they grow and >multiply well, but flowering - not a chance! I think they are L. radiata >and L. chinensis (??). Dear Rogan et al; Lycoris are considered difficult in some climates, easy in others. The genus has two major sub-genera- those with foliage that appears in the fall and stays evergreen all winter, and those with spring foliage. Generally the latter group is hardier and more easily grown in northern climates. Most of the Chinese species are best in a continental climate with definite winter /summer seasonality - many of these are from the latter group. The Japanese species are mostly from the former group and will do best in milder climates. All do best in some shade and NONE prefer a summer baking, but want year round moisture. You might have trouble in S. Africa with L. chinensis which is easy(!) here in my mid-continent Zone 5. L. radiata should do fine for you. Keep it watered all year -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Jul 20 09:58:05 2005 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Bulb Tissue Culture Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:02:24 -0500 Dear All; I am looking for help. advise and especially experience with tissue culturing of bulbs*. Can you recommend a reliable TC lab? Name/web site/ etc Have you had experience trying to get a bulb of your own into TC? What are the pitfalls? Appreciate any first hand comments. Jim W. * in the broadest sense including both bulbous and rhizomateous iris -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jshields@indy.net Wed Jul 20 10:17:50 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050720090748.01f045b8@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:18:05 -0500 Hi Doug and all, I always start most of my Hippeastrum seeds (not reticulata seeds, however) by floating. It always works for me. Transferring the seedlings to potting mix is trickier. Here is how I do it: Plant the very small seedlings (one leaf, one or two roots) in a fairly fine mixture. I use something more water-retentive than my usual gritty, fast-draining mix used for larger bulbs. I'm currently using Promix BX - Sand ( 2 : 1 ). Once planted, the little seedlings need to be gradually acclimated to a lower humidity environment. I used to cover the pot with a loose sheet of Saran wrap or other clear plastic, and water from below. Now I just set the pots in my lath house under three times a week misting. Both approaches work just fine, with very little if any loss of plants on potting. Note that my climate is not in the least like Southern California or southern Australia! Right now we are having hot (30 - 32°C or 86 - 90°F) days and warm nights (21°C or 70°F) with high humidity. Regards, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From osmani_baullosa@yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 10:20:46 2005 Message-Id: <20050720142046.13709.qmail@web30511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Osmani Baullosa Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Hi Doug, When I soak seeds, I usually wait until the little root is about 2 or 3 cm. long. Then do a little hole -with a needle- on a porous and rich soil mix, and carefully push the root inside, leaving the seed above the soil. It's a naïve, but results for me are good. Regards, Osmani Douglas Westfall wrote: Now that I am "floating" some seeds and they ar sending out a root, how do I take care of them? What planting medium is best? Doug Westfall _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From crinum@libero.it Wed Jul 20 10:24:04 2005 Message-Id: From: "crinum@libero.it" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:26:53 +0200 About H. reticulatum: what to do? before I have lost all seeds... Alberto Italy ---------- Initial Header ----------- From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org To : "Pacific Bulb Society" pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Cc : Date : Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:18:05 -0500 Subject : Re: [pbs] Hippeastrum seeds > Hi Doug and all, > > I always start most of my Hippeastrum seeds (not reticulata seeds, however) > by floating. It always works for me. Transferring the seedlings to > potting mix is trickier. > > Here is how I do it: > > Plant the very small seedlings (one leaf, one or two roots) in a fairly > fine mixture. I use something more water-retentive than my usual gritty, > fast-draining mix used for larger bulbs. I'm currently using Promix BX - > Sand ( 2 : 1 ). Once planted, the little seedlings need to be gradually > acclimated to a lower humidity environment. I used to cover the pot with a > loose sheet of Saran wrap or other clear plastic, and water from > below. Now I just set the pots in my lath house under three times a week > misting. Both approaches work just fine, with very little if any loss of > plants on potting. > > Note that my climate is not in the least like Southern California or > southern Australia! Right now we are having hot (30 - 32°C or 86 - 90°F) > days and warm nights (21°C or 70°F) with high humidity. > > Regards, > Jim Shields > in central Indiana (USA) > > > ************************************************* > Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. > P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ > Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA > Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > Alberto Grossi Italy ____________________________________________________________ Libero Flat, sempre a 4 Mega a 19,95 euro al mese! Abbonati subito su http://www.libero.it From rmsachs@ucdavis.edu Wed Jul 20 12:08:26 2005 Message-Id: From: Roy Sachs Subject: Bulb Tissue Culture Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:07:47 -0700 >Dear All; > I am looking for help. advise and especially experience with >tissue culturing of bulbs*. > Can you recommend a reliable TC lab? Name/web site/ etc > > Have you had experience trying to get a bulb of your own into >TC? What are the pitfalls? > > Appreciate any first hand comments. Jim W. > >* in the broadest sense including both bulbous and rhizomateous iris Jim: If you mean commercial work I have been in contact with a lab in India (very infrequent e-mails so far and that's not encouraging) that seem to have an excellent program for callas and a few other species. I've spent months trying to clean up alstroemeria rhizomes to get them to increase in vitro (potentially much more rapid). The literature (viz. Mark Bridgen of U Conn and some Indian labs, and Googling), suggests that it should be relatively easy to get them free of bacteria and fungi, but I had zero success, even working with TC experts at Davis who succeeded with other species. I never understood what we were doing wrong nor how we differed in methodology from that in the publications we followed. Roy From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Wed Jul 20 12:26:29 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050720182426.01e975d0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:26:03 +0200 At 05:18 20-07-2005, Douglas Westfall wrote: >Now that I am "floating" some seeds and they ar sending out a root, how do I >take care of them? What planting medium is best? > >Doug Westfall You will get a million different answers to that question. A friend of mine in Ireland told me last year to use compost, so that is what I have used the past year, and it works fine. This is compost made in the summer of 2003 (last year) or 2004 (now). Carol From amburrell@ag.tamu.edu Wed Jul 20 13:13:17 2005 Message-Id: From: "Millie Burrell" Subject: Bulb Tissue Culture Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:12:38 -0500 I am curious to know what goal you have in mind by using tissue culture. Propagation? Virus clean-up? The reason I ask is that there are easier methods of propagation that you can use at home where you don't have to consider costs and loss of valuable propagules due to media contamination. You can accomplish quite a bit with premium rooting hormone, the proper rooting conditions and a knife. The project that was the subject of my Master's degree thesis was grounded in tissue culture. I worked with the genetic component of somatic embryogenesis in roses. Tissue culture can get very expensive and be very frustrating. Please clarify your goals a bit if you have a chance. Sincerely, Millie Burrell >>> jwaddick@kc.rr.com 07/20/05 9:02 AM >>> Dear All; I am looking for help. advise and especially experience with tissue culturing of bulbs*. Can you recommend a reliable TC lab? Name/web site/ etc Have you had experience trying to get a bulb of your own into TC? What are the pitfalls? Appreciate any first hand comments. Jim W. * in the broadest sense including both bulbous and rhizomateous iris -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From haweha@hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 13:22:19 2005 Message-Id: From: "Hans-Werner Hammen" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:22:18 +0000 I found many articles in the web which pretend that floating is THE common and practical method for sowing the papery-foiled seeds of amaryllid's plants. It seems that this numerously glorified method is becoming the amaryllid's cultivation myth of the new century. I disagree and oppose against this method, which involves a tedious/laborious/cumbersome procedure in the very moment when the seedlings have to be transplanted into a solid medium. I tried floatin' - once; (regardless to being already against my conviction, I ADMIT). The germination rate was good, but not better than in FRESHLY prepared coco peat substrate prepared from coco bricks. And the transplantation was terrible, exactly as I had expected. No, never again. No one who has to sow hundreds or even thousands of hippeastrum (gardener's amaryllis) seeds per anno can honestly recommend this method nor can he practice it- he will get crazy. I sow into freshly recontituted coco peat substrate, and I put every single seed, one beside another with blunt tweezers into slits formed with a ruler. This is the most accurate and yes, rather rapid method. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/haweha/1066.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/haweha/seedlings12weeks.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/haweha/seedl12weeks_detailed.jpg Now, as the kids have already fallen into the sink I recommend a very carefull transplantation of the floating kids - pardon: Seedlings - into freshly prepared coco peat substrate without any further additives. The box should preferably have numerous drainage holes and further include a THICK drainage layer of expanded clay bullets or something similar. When the seedlings are all into then the substrate should be thoroughly but carefully be watered with a fine hotspur. At least the surface of the substrate should completely dry out between the subsequent waterings, and watering - with lukewarm water and diluted fertilizer every time - should be very thorough again. I recommend a volume which is roughly equivalent to the total substrate volume including the drainage layer (!) Hans-Werner From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 14:13:09 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:13:07 +0000 "You will get a million different answers to that question. A friend of mine in Ireland told me last year to use compost, so that is what I have used the past year, and it works fine. This is compost made in the summer of 2003 (last year) or 2004 (now). > >Carol" Hi Carol and Doug: People is usually cooperative and well intentioned and eager to share what they find gives them good results. But, anything with a very high content of organic matter does necessarily not remain stable for long, including coir, bark, peat, compost, or leafmould. As bacteriae act on them, they gradually turn into dust that retain dangerously increasing amounts of water and ultimately becoming a sponge. Watering must be very cautious with such materials. It is also common that people forget to mention how the use of such materials turns out after a season of growth. Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Consigue aquí las mejores y mas recientes ofertas de trabajo en América Latina y USA: http://latam.msn.com/empleos/ From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 14:30:16 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:30:14 +0000 >From: "Hans-Werner Hammen" >I found many articles in the web which pretend that floating is THE common >and practical method for sowing the papery-foiled seeds of amaryllid's >plants. >It seems that this numerously glorified method is becoming the amaryllid's >cultivation myth of the new century. Hi Hans-Werner and Doug: Lots of information concerning plants is spread parrot fashion. Floatation is an obsolete method. If one grows two or three species it is alright to have something to do during spare time, otherwise it is a waste of time and labour. Far better, it is to sow thinly in a well drained mix and then place the pot in a tray with half an inch of water permanently. This methods has all the advantages of water germination but without the chore of potting up seedling by seedling. As seed germinates and seedling grow on it is possible to use the watering from below for months without any adverse effect. It is not true either that floatation or water germination is adequate for all flat black seed. Cyrtanthi dislike it very much and rot in a good proportion using it. By definition, clay balls do not improve drainage. As they create a permanent water table at the bottom of pots they are widely used in balconies and places where frequent watering of potted plants is not possible. GREAT when you go on vacations! Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From arnold@nj.rr.com Wed Jul 20 14:37:32 2005 Message-Id: <42DE997C.9000304@nj.rr.com> From: arnold trachtenberg Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:35:40 -0400 Hans: I haven't germinated any hippeastrum sees in coir but have begun to use it in larger and larger amount in my potting mixes for all sorts of bulbs. I repotted some boophone disticha this year into a mix of coir and gravel and so far it looks like it has done well. I am wondering if any of the clivia enthusiasts out there have tried coir in potting mixes for clivia. Arnold From jshields@indy.net Wed Jul 20 15:15:54 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050720134311.00b02eb0@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:14:14 -0500 Hi all, Alberto is quite correct -- floatation does not work for all papery seeds. Besides the cyrtanthi, floatation does not work for seeds of Hippeastrum psittacinum. I don't think it works for Worsleya seeds either, but haven't tried it there. Indeed I do use floatation only for small lots of a few species. We don't grow Hippeastrum commercially, just for fun. However, I am forced to say that IMHO any lack of success with planting floated seedlings is likely due to poor technique. It truly does work when done with a modicum of skill. Controlling the moisture and humidity around the newly planted seedlings is critical. Sticking a floatation seedling into potting mix takes about as much effort as sticking a seed into mix on edge. You do it the same way: make a hole or slit in the firmed mix, and insert seed or seedling. Firm up the mix again around the planted seed/seedling. It boils down, as so much in gardening and horticulture does, to what works for you. We do not have a source of coir here. We cannot get pumice here. We do use a lot of granite chicken grit in our potting mixes, but most people cannot get granite grit. If what you are doing works, don't change just because someone else gets some other method to work -- unless you like to experiment. Good luck with your Hippeastrum seeds! Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Wed Jul 20 15:39:11 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050720213443.01e57070@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:38:47 +0200 At 20:13 20-07-2005, Alberto Castillo wrote: >"You will get a million different answers to that question. A friend of mine >in Ireland told me last year to use compost, so that is what I have used the >past year, and it works fine. This is compost made in the summer of 2003 >(last year) or 2004 (now). >> >>Carol" > >Hi Carol and Doug: > People is usually cooperative and well intentioned >and eager to share what they find gives them good results. But, anything >with a very high content of organic matter does necessarily not remain >stable for long, including coir, bark, peat, compost, or leafmould. As >bacteriae act on them, they gradually turn into dust that retain dangerously >increasing amounts of water and ultimately becoming a sponge. Watering must >be very cautious with such materials. It is also common that people forget >to mention how the use of such materials turns out after a season of growth. >Regards >Alberto I might add, that both my Irish friend and I are amateurs and don't have to grow to sell! However, the method does work indoors. I add compost on top and/or repot after hibernation. My garden soil (sans compost) is dust - it is very nutrious clay silt left over from a few glaciers around 8000 B.C. Farther inland you get gravel pits, farther still you find large rocks. Anyway, I tend to underwater my hippeastrum. Carol From haweha@hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 17:15:11 2005 Message-Id: From: "Hans-Werner Hammen" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:15:10 +0000 >By definition, clay balls do not improve drainage. As they create a >permanent water table at the >bottom of pots they are widely used in >balconies and places where frequent watering of potted plants is not >possible. GREAT when you go on vacations! >From: "Alberto Castillo" >Reply-To: Pacific Bulb Society >To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: Re: [pbs] Hippeastrum seeds >Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:30:14 +0000 This definition is interesting and I can not verify the postulated consequences. My experiences with and without drainage layer consisting of clay balls revealed a significant difference in the necessary maximum time interval for water administering: 4 days WITH drainage and 6 days without using my 50 cm boxes demonstrated in my previous images. Thus I can not confirm the water table theory. I did not talk about seramis, volume related water binding capacity = 25% here, but about porous balls with an outer skin similar to these 8 mm balls which are used for hydroculture. I roughly estimate their surfacial water "up"take to be only between 5 and 10 vol% - while the water binding capacity of coco peat substrate is 40% or better (I evaluated this myself) which makes my differential observations above (6 vs. 4 days) plausible. The hippeastrum seedlings growing in coco peat "with" this drainage layer below simply grow much better (faster) which is plausible, too, because they get more air from below! My observations over the years indicate that Hippeastrum roots need a lot of oxygen! And therefore I strongly recommend and continue to recommend a THICK drainage layer of these 2-4 mm balls! Hans-Werner From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 17:24:27 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:22:57 +0000 "Anyway, I tend to underwater my hippeastrum. > >Carol" Hi Carol: Watering is the key to success (and failure) with bulbs. There is a method called "Cyrtanthus culture": you let the mix dry up a good deal between waterings. This way, you imitate the swift drainage of soils in the wild. Water weights and the pots become increasingly lighter as they dry out. One can rapidly learn when a plant needs watering by the weight of the pot. If the pot is too big, just by leaning it you can tell the weight. It is difficult to undewater a bulb plant, except if the pots are small. Best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 17:23:16 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:23:14 +0000 "Anyway, I tend to underwater my hippeastrum. > >Carol" Hi Carol: Watering is the key to success (and failure) with bulbs. There is a method called "Cyrtanthus culture": you let the mix dry up a good deal between waterings. This way, you imitate the swift drainage of soils in the wild. Water weights and the pots become increasingly lighter as they dry out. One can rapidly learn when a plant needs watering by the weight of the pot. If the pot is too big, just by leaning it you can tell the weight. It is difficult to undewater a bulb plant, except if the pots are small. Best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Wed Jul 20 17:37:35 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:37:34 +0000 >From: "Hans-Werner Hammen" "I do not talk about seramis, volume related water binding capacity = 25% >here, but about porous balls with an outer skin similar to these 8 mm balls >which are used for hydroculture. I roughly estimate their surfacial water! >Hans-Werner" Hi Hans-Werner: Not long ago, there was an interesting thread here at PBS on drainage dynamics, including a page in which there were the results of a number of experiments with very detailed information sent by one of our attendants. Among several other subjects the problem of water tables, container height, etc., were discussed. Very interesting. Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Las mejores tiendas, los precios mas bajos, entregas en todo el mundo, YupiMSN Compras: http://latam.msn.com/compras/ From dells@voicenet.com Wed Jul 20 17:41:07 2005 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 96 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:40:00 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 96" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: . Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER.. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From James Smith: 1. Seed of Hippeastrum 'Picotee' x H. 'Red Lion' From Ann Marie Rametta: 2. Seed of Watsonia mixed pink and white. From Alberto Grossi: SEED: 3. Crinum macowanii 4. Scilla peruviana 5. Colchicum autumnale 6. Canna indica 7. Alium neapolitanum 8. Allium ursinum 9. Allium triquetrum From Dell Sherk: 10. Seed (few) of Pucara leucantha; small South American amaryllid with small (2 cm dia) cream-colored trumpets; relatively uncommon in cultivation, but easy to grow 11. Seed (few) of Crinum 'Summer Nocturne' (open pollinated - C. macowanii in bloom at the same time) fragrant, white with pale pink blush. Thank you, James, Ann Marie, and Alberto !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From dells@voicenet.com Wed Jul 20 18:08:16 2005 Message-Id: <20050720220816.288144C00B@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:08:15 -0400 I must weigh in on this thread. I have germinated many seeds by flotation Hipps, Cyrtanthus, rainlilies, Rodophialas, pamianthe and other South Americans. Germination was always successful if the seed was fresh or properly preserved (refrigerated), but the problem came in many cases when I potted them and tried to grow them on. The losses were frequently great. Mary Sue convinced me to try another technique: on the surface of a well-drained, moist potting medium deposit a layer of coarse sand perhaps 0.5 cm deep. Moisten the sand and make slits in the surface (I use a butter knife). Into each slit I place one seed on edge leaving a little of the papery seed coat protruding above the surface. Next, I mist the surface with a dilute suspension of Captan fungicide to prevent damp-off and place the pot into a wrm, humid propagation chamber - a plastic bag or a sheet of glass or plastic on top will do. Germination is usually slower than with flotation, but especially with Hipps, it is often 100% and there is little or no loss with growing them on in the same pot where they germinated for a year or so. Give it a try, Dell From dells@voicenet.com Wed Jul 20 18:51:19 2005 Message-Id: <20050720225118.E8BC84C00B@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:51:18 -0400 Alberto reminds me: But, germination will be in a moist chamber. Gradual removal of the cover for "hardening" is importat. Sedlings suddenly exposed to normal atmosphere conditions will be at risk. Best Alberto From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 20 22:04:04 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1q8d0n@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Simple pleasures Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:04:02 -0400 It's about 10 P.M. here, and I just came in from the garden, a garden about to be flooded with light from the full moon. The moon has to clear the trees before it lights the garden. Several big clumps of Hymenocallis of the Ismene group are in full bloom and filling the garden with intense fragrance. These flowers are really beautiful in the light of the moon, especially Sulphur Queen. What a treat! In a friend's garden, Gladiolus callianthus (our old pal Acidanthera) is also in bloom and fragrant: another great moon flower! Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I feel agreeably loony tonight. From samclan@redshift.com Wed Jul 20 23:52:39 2005 Message-Id: <42DF1D13.7020006@redshift.com> From: Shirley Meneice Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:57:07 -0700 Thank you, Dell. I will be teaching some beginners in Sept. and will give them this technique which seems more likely to work for them and therefore encourage them to be seed growers. Shirley Meneice Dell Sherk wrote: >I must weigh in on this thread. I have germinated many seeds by flotation >Hipps, Cyrtanthus, rainlilies, Rodophialas, pamianthe and other South >Americans. Germination was always successful if the seed was fresh or >properly preserved (refrigerated), but the problem came in many cases when I >potted them and tried to grow them on. The losses were frequently great. >Mary Sue convinced me to try another technique: on the surface of a >well-drained, moist potting medium deposit a layer of coarse sand perhaps >0.5 cm deep. Moisten the sand and make slits in the surface (I use a butter >knife). Into each slit I place one seed on edge leaving a little of the >papery seed coat protruding above the surface. Next, I mist the surface with >a dilute suspension of Captan fungicide to prevent damp-off and place the >pot into a wrm, humid propagation chamber - a plastic bag or a sheet of >glass or plastic on top will do. Germination is usually slower than with >flotation, but especially with Hipps, it is often 100% and there is little >or no loss with growing them on in the same pot where they germinated for a >year or so. > >Give it a try, >Dell > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/53 - Release Date: 7/20/05 From crinum@libero.it Thu Jul 21 03:42:13 2005 Message-Id: From: "crinum@libero.it" Subject: Pacific BX 96 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:42:11 +0200 Dear Dell, I am interested in item n 10: pucara leucantha Grazie Ciao Alberto ---------- Initial Header ----------- From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org To : Antennaria@aol.com,floralartistry2000@yahoo.com,gatogordo@webtv.net,numida@aol.com,pbs@lists.ibiblio.org,Pat.Colville@JHResearchUSA.com,"Cathy Craig" CathyCraigEA@hotmail.com,mysticgardn@yahoo.com,masterson4@cox.net Cc : Date : Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:40:00 -0400 Subject : [pbs] Pacific BX 96 > Dear All, > > The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the > world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please > email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 96" in the subject > line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify > quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in > case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first > served system. > When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a > statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS > treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. > Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of > the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF > THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future > offers such as this. Go to our website: . Or > contact me at dells@voicenet.com > If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send > CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, > 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for > their donations. > > PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR > ORDER.. > IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! > > >From James Smith: > > 1. Seed of Hippeastrum 'Picotee' x H. 'Red Lion' > > >From Ann Marie Rametta: > > 2. Seed of Watsonia mixed pink and white. > > >From Alberto Grossi: > > SEED: > > 3. Crinum macowanii > 4. Scilla peruviana > 5. Colchicum autumnale > 6. Canna indica > 7. Alium neapolitanum > 8. Allium ursinum > 9. Allium triquetrum > > >From Dell Sherk: > > 10. Seed (few) of Pucara leucantha; small South American amaryllid with > small (2 cm dia) cream-colored trumpets; relatively uncommon in cultivation, > but easy to grow > > 11. Seed (few) of Crinum 'Summer Nocturne' (open pollinated - C. macowanii > in bloom at the same time) fragrant, white with pale pink blush. > > Thank you, James, Ann Marie, and Alberto !! > > Best wishes, > Dell > > --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > Alberto Grossi Italy ____________________________________________________________ 6X velocizzare la tua navigazione a 56k? 6X Web Accelerator di Libero! Scaricalo su INTERNET GRATIS 6X http://www.libero.it From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Thu Jul 21 05:58:49 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050721115655.01f9f250@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:58:20 +0200 Alberto, my pots are mostly very large (largest 29 cm diameter on top) and of red clay with glazed "saucers". No water ever runs out onto the saucer. Carol From steve.burger@choa.org Thu Jul 21 06:22:34 2005 Message-Id: <0BAB7B6F7D5A53418C3B75FA01DE2BED0938AD4B@CHOAMAIL4.choa.org> From: "Burger, Steve" Subject: Cardiocrinum cordatum Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:22:01 -0400 Thanks! I'll wait and see what I get. In the meantime I'll enjoy my flowers:) Steve -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Jim McKenney Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 10:08 PM To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Subject: Re: [pbs] Cardiocrinum cordatum Steve, my plant of Cardiocrinum cordatum has bloomed here twice so far. It took a four year break between blooming events. Unlike your plant, mine has never shown pups around the blooming plant. The pups appear the next year. In my experience (which is not based on much experience at all), the non-flowering rosettes ("pups") die down sooner than the blooming rosettes. For instance, my plant which bloomed last year at this time has no live growth above ground. It was there earlier this year and has already died down for the year. Your pups are probably fine and I would not worry about them. And next year, the plant now in flower will probably provide one or two more. So be patient and keep us posted on how they do. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where the best advice I can give Steve is to let sleeping pups lie. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From dells@voicenet.com Thu Jul 21 08:41:24 2005 Message-Id: <20050721124123.0B48A4C005@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific BX 96 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:41:24 -0400 I have received your order. Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, PBS BX From dells@voicenet.com Thu Jul 21 08:48:54 2005 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: About BX 96 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:48:02 -0400 Dear All, Numbers 10 & 11 are all gone! Dell From osmani_baullosa@yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 10:03:28 2005 Message-Id: <20050721140326.20430.qmail@web30512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Osmani Baullosa Subject: Simple pleasures Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Hi Jim, Yours is not a simple pleasure, in a planet like this...:-) Thanks a lot for your message!!, I enjoyed your walk too. This is perhaps what we expect from our "hobby": a recovered Eden raised by ourselves... Cheers, Osmani Jim McKenney wrote: It's about 10 P.M. here, and I just came in from the garden, a garden about to be flooded with light from the full moon. The moon has to clear the trees before it lights the garden. Several big clumps of Hymenocallis of the Ismene group are in full bloom and filling the garden with intense fragrance. These flowers are really beautiful in the light of the moon, especially Sulphur Queen. What a treat! In a friend's garden, Gladiolus callianthus (our old pal Acidanthera) is also in bloom and fragrant: another great moon flower! Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I feel agreeably loony tonight. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 11:01:58 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:01:57 +0000 "Alberto, my pots are mostly very large (largest 29 cm diameter on top) and of red clay with glazed "saucers". No water ever runs out onto the saucer. > >Carol" Dear Carol: Great if it means that you give them only the proper amount they can use. But, there are also many cases in which water just do not run through because the mix has degraded too fine and/or the drainage hole at the bottom is not working anymore. Surprisingly, most people would poke a finger and if the mix is dry in the upper layer keep on adding water without realizing that if the water is not going out, it must remain somewhere. All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From semper76fi@yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 11:55:17 2005 Message-Id: <20050721155512.75851.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> From: James Smith Subject: Hippeastrum Hybrid Parentage Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Greetings all, I was wondering if anyone knew of a reference that identifies the plants crossed to produce some of the named Hippeastrum hybrids available today? Thank you in advance for any information. Regards, James Smith Augusta, Georgia Zone 7b-8a Hot and Humid --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page From osmani_baullosa@yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 12:38:25 2005 Message-Id: <20050721163739.4256.qmail@web30504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Osmani Baullosa Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Hi Alberto, need your help again: I have a question about those cases in which the water never runs out of the pot: If the soil mix turns dry in the upper layer, and the drainage is not good -so the water remains for a longer time down in the pot... Will the roots finnally absorbe this water if you stop watering the plant? Or they will rot? I have a big pot with Alstroemeria (4 years old plants), with a saucer... and the same situation I am describing... It's the only case like this I found among my plants... Thanks in advance, Osmani Alberto Castillo wrote: "Alberto, my pots are mostly very large (largest 29 cm diameter on top) and of red clay with glazed "saucers". No water ever runs out onto the saucer. > >Carol" Dear Carol: Great if it means that you give them only the proper amount they can use. But, there are also many cases in which water just do not run through because the mix has degraded too fine and/or the drainage hole at the bottom is not working anymore. Surprisingly, most people would poke a finger and if the mix is dry in the upper layer keep on adding water without realizing that if the water is not going out, it must remain somewhere. All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour From decoy.farm@zetnet.co.uk Thu Jul 21 12:46:02 2005 Message-Id: <313030303635393942DFDFC389@zetnet.co.uk> From: Janet Galpin Subject: Cyclamen purpurascens Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:47:47 +0100 The message <42DD6176.1080001@olywa.net> from Laura & Dave contains these words: > I too am having my first flowering of C purpurascens this summer. Mine are > fourth year seedlings, growing in a spot that only gets direct sun at > mid-morning. They don't actually ever go completely dormant, as long as I > remember to give them a bit of water occasionally. I followed the > thread of > advice that said plant them deeply, so that the tubers are between 2 and 3 > inches down. The fragrance from the flowers is strong and rich, > reminiscent of > lilacs. I am very pleased!! > Dave Brastow > 7A - Tumwater, Washington. I had quite a nice patch for three years so and then one season they disappeared. I assumed it was too dry for them and that, compared with other Cyclamen, they do need a fair amount of water. I'm now growing some replacements in pots and will remember the advice to plant deeply. Janet Galpin S. Lincs, UK From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Thu Jul 21 15:16:32 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050721211341.01e80ad8@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:16:00 +0200 When I repot, I now and then sniff and can smell that there was mold in the pot. This is with other plants and especially my daughter's plants that I take care of. She uses something called pot hiders, rather nice ceramic bowls instead of "saucers". With that system, water can stay in the pot without one noticing. But my hippeastrum are dry and sweet. Carol From jimmckenney@starpower.net Thu Jul 21 15:39:55 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1qhabm@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Hymenocallis/Ismene culture Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:39:49 -0400 I've been asked to make some comments about how I grow my Hymenocallis/Ismene. For the most part, I grow these using what in the past was widely understood as "gladiolus culture". This means digging them at the end of the outdoor growing season, shaking off the soil, storing the big bulbs dry and room-temperature-warm throughout the winter and spring, and then planting them out into the ground about the time you would plant out tomatoes. After the bulbs are dry, any remaining soil is removed. The bulbs are then stored in the open air indoors for several weeks to allow them to dry out even more. The roots should remain plump and pliable during this storage. Sometime during the winter holidays I move the bulbs into plastic bags if I have not done it already. The bulbs are big and they come out of the ground with massive root systems; and since they are both easily grown in our climate and prolific, you soon have a real heap of them. This business of digging the bulbs yearly is a real nuisance, but it's worth it. I've tried growing them in pots and big tubs. The pot grown plants are obviously not at their best, and the tubs are too heavy. If planted right near the house wall, these plants will survive the winters outside here. But such plants do not bloom dependably. These plants are so easily grown in our climate that it came as a surprise to hear that that is not so in all areas. One other thing: as mentioned above, they are prolific and you soon accumulate lots of bulbs. Put this to advantage: they do not all have to be planted at once. Stagger the plantings. They come into bloom as soon as two to three weeks after being planted when planted late. This year, the space for the Hymenocallis/Ismene was tied up earlier in the year and I did not get around to planting them until early July. In some years I've planted them as early as mid April. I grow the usual ones here: 'Advance', x festalis, x festalis 'Zwanenberg' and 'Sulphur Queen'. In the past I had H. longipetala (Elisena): this is a lot like x festalis but with a smaller "cup" to the flower - and thus more spidery and perhaps a bit less showy. It responded well to the same treatment here. If I had a place in the country, I would have these by the hundreds, planted at intervals through the spring and early summer weeks. The inflorescence, although not long-lived, makes wonderful cut flowers. And the scent... Great plants, easily grown...more, please! Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where garden glads are in full bloom in many local gardens. From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 17:08:52 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:08:50 +0000 >From: Osmani Baullosa "::::::those cases in which the water never runs out of the pot: > >If the soil mix turns dry in the upper layer, and the drainage is not good >-so the water remains for a longer time down in the pot... Will the roots >finnally absorbe this water if you stop watering the plant? Or they will >rot? " Hi Osmani: How is the Chilean season going? Succulents, bulbs and cacti are very sensitive to soil or mix porosity. The existence of all important absorbing roots depends on the availability of oxygen in the mix and perhaps more crucial, that noxious gases (carbon dioxide, methane, sulphidric) leave the mix. A mix that would perform wonders for many kinds of vegetables (for instance) will kill most bulbs rapidly. So if water collects at the bottom of the pot it must leave it soon as the plant will “drink” only what it needs for cooling and for photosynthesis and has no way to get rid of the rest. It will just remain there whence by capillarity will ascend into the remaining healthier upper portion. Drainage must be fast and rapid TO LET gases come in and out of the mix with ease. Bulbs can cope very well with thirst and seldom suffer from it. More normally they die from suffocation. In dry climates dry air would help take water from the wet mix but in humid climates the problem will be a lot worse. In case of normal plants like say indoors type, they quickly give signals of being overwatered (random leaves yellowing) and have ways of surviving the danger, like producing superficial roots in the upper layers of the soil where the mix dries up more rapidly and there exists a certain exchange of gases. Bulbs can not do this, they are normally low in the container where water actually collects and have no mechanisms to send roots up. Their normal response is stunted growth and death as roots become asfixiated one after the other and and the rot crawls into the basal plate. It is by now that first signs of trouble show up and by then the poor thing is practically gone. So, do not take risks and make your side drainage holes before ti is too late. Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Thu Jul 21 17:23:55 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Boophane Directory Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:23:54 +0000 Hi Pat: Today I received my copy of the 2005 Membership Directory. Thanks a lot. Alberto Argentina _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Fri Jul 22 02:35:12 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050722083121.01e95328@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Dahlia culture Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:34:42 +0200 I grow dahlia as Jim grows hymenocallis and ismene. The difference is that I leave the soil on. I don't water, but they are plump in the spring and usually sprouting when I plant them out in May. I have them (the tubers, one dahlia) in a cardboard box in a cold room (down to 50F in winter). By the way, I grow lots of onions, and they are still viable in July the year after. I put them into a cardboard box and they are in the same cold room. Of course the room has been extremely hot in late summer and they dry well. Carol From osmani_baullosa@yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 15:28:37 2005 Message-Id: <20050722192835.19705.qmail@web30501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Osmani Baullosa Subject: Blooming in my garden Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Thanks Alberto, and everybody else for all the useful information and experience... In Santiago de Chile Narcissus "Tazzeta" are in full bloom, as well as the first Daffodils and Hyacinthus... About my Chilean species, Phycella scarlatina is flowering right now, bringing some red to my garden, a different color from all the white, yellow and blue of the dutch bulbs.... My Tropaeolum tricolor is starting to bloom (Very very early as they have said to me); buds are elongating and turning red. Also Nothoscordum striatellum. I wish for you all a very happy and fun week end... Regards, Osmani Alberto Castillo wrote: >From: Osmani Baullosa "::::::those cases in which the water never runs out of the pot: > >If the soil mix turns dry in the upper layer, and the drainage is not good >-so the water remains for a longer time down in the pot... Will the roots >finnally absorbe this water if you stop watering the plant? Or they will >rot? " Hi Osmani: How is the Chilean season going? Succulents, bulbs and cacti are very sensitive to soil or mix porosity. The existence of all important absorbing roots depends on the availability of oxygen in the mix and perhaps more crucial, that noxious gases (carbon dioxide, methane, sulphidric) leave the mix. A mix that would perform wonders for many kinds of vegetables (for instance) will kill most bulbs rapidly. So if water collects at the bottom of the pot it must leave it soon as the plant will “drink” only what it needs for cooling and for photosynthesis and has no way to get rid of the rest. It will just remain there whence by capillarity will ascend into the remaining healthier upper portion. Drainage must be fast and rapid TO LET gases come in and out of the mix with ease. Bulbs can cope very well with thirst and seldom suffer from it. More normally they die from suffocation. In dry climates dry air would help take water from the wet mix but in humid climates the problem will be a lot worse. In case of normal plants like say indoors type, they quickly give signals of being overwatered (random leaves yellowing) and have ways of surviving the danger, like producing superficial roots in the upper layers of the soil where the mix dries up more rapidly and there exists a certain exchange of gases. Bulbs can not do this, they are normally low in the container where water actually collects and have no mechanisms to send roots up. Their normal response is stunted growth and death as roots become asfixiated one after the other and and the rot crawls into the basal plate. It is by now that first signs of trouble show up and by then the poor thing is practically gone. So, do not take risks and make your side drainage holes before ti is too late. Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. From msittner@mcn.org Sat Jul 23 10:59:15 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050723070942.02bb20d0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Desert Wild Flowers Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:27:04 -0700 Dear All, This spring we added a temporary page to our wiki so people could share pictures they took of the incredible flower display this spring in the California desert when there was above average rainfall. Most of the pictures were taken by Lee Poulsen of Death Valley and I am sure it took him a lot of time to resize, name, and write about his pictures. I am sure that his pictures brought a number of people pleasure and we thank him for his efforts. Hesperocallis undulata pictures have been added to a permanent wiki page, but we will be removing the rest of the pictures and taking the Desert page off by the end of August. We never planned to have it be a permanent part of the wiki since most of the pictures do not illustrate our topic. Anyone who did not get a chance to look at them when Lee added them might want to check them out. And if there are any special pictures that others planned to add and didn't, there is a short window of opportunity still to do so. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/DesertWildFlowers Mary Sue From msittner@mcn.org Sat Jul 23 10:59:17 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050723072709.02bb6d90@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Brodiaea and Triteleia pictures Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:58:16 -0700 Dear All, We our late rains this year I have had great blooms in my garden from Brodiaea and Triteleia, both in the ground and in pots. There are a number of species I planted many years ago in a raised bed that I never replanted blooming this year that I thought had died. They are species like T. peduncularis that grow in wet places and the last few years that bed has been dry before they bloomed so I didn't realize they were still there. Some are still blooming now, especially some of the late blooming Brodiaeas like B. pallida, B. californica, and B. filifolia. Most of the Triteleias are done although there are still some Triteleia laxa in bloom as this is a species that is very variable in the wild, both in color, time of bloom, height, and size of flowers. One size does not fit all. Our local populations are late blooming. I have added some more pictures to the wiki of bulbs we saw blooming in the wild in April so you can see my point about the extended time for bloom. Although we didn't expect to see many Brodiaeas in bloom in April since most of them bloom much later in the year, in Merced County where we saw Calochortus luteus added to the wiki earlier, we saw Brodiaea californica. This was a lower growing one with smaller flowers like the variety leptandra which isn't thought to be found in this area. Georgie Robinett told me that she and Jim often found on their trips bulbs in areas not reported to be there. I've added a couple of pictures of it including one with Triteleia hyacinthina so you can see the size. This was drying grass and other vegetation as this was a very open area. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Brodiaea And I have added some Triteleia pictures as well. I added another picture of the Triteleia hyacinthina in Merced county. We also saw Triteleia montana growing on a rocky ledge at a higher elevation area of Kern County near Lake Isabella. Finally I added a number of Triteleia laxa pictures to show the variation. In Bear Valley in Colusa County where we saw some wonderful displays of many flowers there were a lot of them intermixed in the grasses and wild flowers. In Kern County we saw some stands of very large flowers. The Robinett's referred to some that they grew as 'Sierra Giant' so there are obviously bigger flowers in some of the Sierra populations. We found these flowers very beautiful with a sheen and some pink tones. Near Mariposa on our way home we saw a field of Triteleia laxa in the grass. As we got out to take pictures we walked down the road and came across a rocky bank where it was growing with other wild flowers. These flowers were very light blue with a wider umbel, not at all like the smaller dark blue flowers on shorter pedicels blooming right now in Mendocino County. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Triteleia Mary Sue From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 12:32:19 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Brodiaea and Triteleia pictures Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:32:18 +0000 Dear Mary Sue: The introduction you provided for Dichelostemma/Broadiaea/Triteleia is a masterpiece of information, practically a monograph. This group of plants remains largely unknown given their ease of cultivation, abundant late season flower production, and longevity. My problem with some of them is that I can not provide additional cold to them. It would be of use to eventually know which species are mostly alpine over most of their distribution and which ones grow in shade. Such information will be obvious to you people living in the West Coast but to us foreigners can make the difference between success and disaster. All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Sat Jul 23 16:44:51 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: The King is alive Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:44:50 +0000 Dear all: I have been asking people about the Ixia king, Bill Richardson, to no avail. Now he has reappeared in a hot new site. So good. Regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From theotherjen88@msn.com Sun Jul 24 14:11:05 2005 Message-Id: From: "JENNIFER HILDEBRAND" Subject: new treasurer Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:11:03 -0400 Hi all, Having just dropped a PBS deposit in the mail, I have now completed my two-year term as treasurer. Thanks for letting me serve in this position; it was a useful learning experience, and my first time in such a capacity. I'll now be serving as secretary, so thanks, too, for letting me continue to be an active board member. Arnold Trachtenberg will be working as our new treasurer, and I'm sure you all wish him well. To help ease him into his new post, may I ask that you be extra-careful with your BX payments? I thought it might be useful to provide one big tip: Hold on to those pink BX slips. Having lost my fair share, I know it's easy, but to keep accurate records, we need to record the member's name and the amount of of EACH BX payment. Many of you pay for multiple BXs with one check, and that's great (cuts down on paper, helps the environment). But if you choose to do so, please enclose ALL of the BX slips. Alternately, you can write, on the memo line, the BX number AND the amount paid towards that BX. Most of you have been great about writing the BX #, but if you don't also write in the amount of each BX, it still involves some backtracking and paper shuffling on the treasurer's part. Of course we have all of that information (Dell keeps great records) but to have to look it up several times can really slow down the process. For those of you who choose to pay by cash, the rules are basically the same - please make sure that we have your name, the BX # (or numbers) and the amount paid towards each BX. As for those who use PayPal: Arnold and I are working out the transition now. At present, continue to send your payments to theotherjen88@msn.com. That account is still linked to PBS's PayPal account, so your money will still go to PBS, and I can just forward a copy of the statement that I receive from PayPal to Arnold. Thanks again, and please join me in welcoming Arnold to the treasurer's post! Jennifer From doji@hawaii.rr.com Sun Jul 24 14:51:55 2005 Message-Id: <000601c59080$b9793830$6401a8c0@gary> From: "Gary" Subject: Photos Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:51:38 -1000 While searching for information on the many species of Cassia, I came across a vast photo archive that contains many geophytes on it's list. It is at: Universitat Karlsruhe Index of Foto Archiv at http://www.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de/~db50/FOTO_-_Archiv/ Gary in Hilo, HI From vikingdoc@earthlink.net Sun Jul 24 16:49:12 2005 Message-Id: <410-220057024205019500@earthlink.net> From: "Kathy Stokmanis" Subject: Photos Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:50:19 -0700 What a great site! Thank you. Kathy N. California, Sierra foothills, where the lilies Scheherazade, Black Beauty, Leslie Woodriffe, Silk Road and others are crisping in the heat. Long, hot, dry summers, wet mild winters. The lilies would be much happier in high shade. From butterflyamaryllis@yahoo.com Sun Jul 24 18:49:02 2005 Message-Id: <20050724224902.91996.qmail@web33912.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: James Frelichowski Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:49:02 -0700 (PDT) I've been gone a few days so here's my input The shorter and wider the pot, the more moisture that stays in the bottom and causes rot. The taller and narrow the pot, the faster it drains, but I don't know if moisture is more evenly distributed but it would seem that it would take longer for evaporation due to soil depth and that is beneficial to plants. Soil temperature in my experience is also very important so insulation of pot sides and long deep pots will help also. James Frelichowski Osmani Baullosa wrote: Hi Alberto, need your help again: I have a question about those cases in which the water never runs out of the pot: If the soil mix turns dry in the upper layer, and the drainage is not good -so the water remains for a longer time down in the pot... Will the roots finnally absorbe this water if you stop watering the plant? Or they will rot? I have a big pot with Alstroemeria (4 years old plants), with a saucer... and the same situation I am describing... It's the only case like this I found among my plants... Thanks in advance, Osmani Alberto Castillo wrote: "Alberto, my pots are mostly very large (largest 29 cm diameter on top) and of red clay with glazed "saucers". No water ever runs out onto the saucer. > >Carol" Dear Carol: Great if it means that you give them only the proper amount they can use. But, there are also many cases in which water just do not run through because the mix has degraded too fine and/or the drainage hole at the bottom is not working anymore. Surprisingly, most people would poke a finger and if the mix is dry in the upper layer keep on adding water without realizing that if the water is not going out, it must remain somewhere. All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page From pekasky@earthlink.net Sun Jul 24 22:53:08 2005 Message-Id: <8624693.1122259987700.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: new treasurer Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:53:07 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From amburrell@ag.tamu.edu Sun Jul 24 23:13:46 2005 Message-Id: From: "Millie Burrell" Subject: Calling all Plant Enthusiasts--Streptanthus and Caulanthus Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:13:30 -0500 Since it's been such a wonderful year for wildflowers, perhaps some of you (particularly the Californians) have seen populations of Streptanthus and Caulanthus (family: Brassicaceae). I was excited to see the Death Valley photos. The Streptanthoid group is the subject of my PhD work at Texas A&M. We made a collecting trip to the Figueroa Mountain area of the San Padres National Forest for Caulanthus amplexicaulis var. barbarae. No whole plant collecting, only 2 mm samples of cauline leaves, I promise. If you have seen any members of this incredibly special group, especially those that grow in serpentine environments (low N, Ca and high Mg, Ni and other nasty heavy metals), I would appreciate it if you would email me with locations. We are interested in conservation and also studying adaption to plant-hostile environments. Sincerely, Millie Burrell Millie Burrell Graduate Student Department of Biology Texas A&M University Norman Borlaug Center MS 2123 College Station, TX 77843-2123 (979) 845-2683 millieb@tamu.edu From jshields104@insightbb.com Mon Jul 25 09:08:36 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050725080254.00b02a90@mail.insightbb.com> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Great Lakes Bulbs Sources List Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:08:52 -0500 Hi all, This year, we have added several new suppliers to the Sources list at: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/GLOVBulbs/SOURCES.html If you find any errors or dead links in listings on this page, please let me know at once, at . In addition, it has been my unwritten policy that two serious complaints against a vendor result in the immediate removal from the listing. This is now being made explicit. If you have major problems with any vendor on the list, please notify me at once, giving all the particulars. I am always happy to add new suppliers to the list, so if your favorite source for seeds or bulbs is not already listed, please send me their details (same details as for the other listing). There is no charge to anyone for a listing on the Great Lakes sources page. Sincerely, Jim Shields Great Lakes Bulbs webmaster ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 10:18:46 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:18:45 +0000 >From: James Frelichowski "The shorter and wider the pot, the more moisture that stays in the bottom and causes rot. The taller and narrow the pot, the faster it drains, but I don't know if moisture is more evenly distributed but it would seem that it would take longer for evaporation due to soil depth ...." Pity the previous thread on this has not been read by most. In both cases, shallow or deep pots, most of the volume is useless as it is saturated with water. The problem, already discussed, is how to have this excess water leave the pots. "Soil temperature in my experience is also very important so insulation of pot sides and long deep pots will help also." Of paramount importance. That is why in Australia and S. California Cape bulbs can even flower within the first season of growth and under cooler conditions they linger on for years without reaching maturity or skip one season because of improper temperatures during dormancy (Ferrarias, rigth?). For insulation, styrofoam is superb but drainage holes must be huge. Best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Jul 25 10:47:31 2005 Message-Id: <48ph3g$1uvd08@smtp05.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: insulation; was RE: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:47:29 -0400 Alberto, when I read "insulation" my first thought was insulation against heat. But as I read on, I realize that you mean insulation to retain heat. I've cooked many a plant by trying to grow it in a black plastic pot in full sun. What are some good techniques for keeping pots in full sun from getting too hot? Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, which today means temperatures well up into the 90s F. From msittner@mcn.org Mon Jul 25 10:53:38 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050725074026.031dfa30@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Brodiaea and Triteleia pictures Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:52:54 -0700 Dear Alberto, I am puzzled by your request for more information about these three genera since I provided a lot of information about them in my introductions to the topic of the week when we discussed them and a lot of that information is integrated on the wiki or there are links to the complete information. Many of the species as I have noted have a wide distribution and grow in many different situations (shade, sun, soil differences, elevation differences.) Sometimes you can't determine how adaptable they are until you try them. I grow Triteleia ixioides ssp. anilina and it blooms fine for me even though it does not appear sometimes until February and it is a higher elevation species and probably spends a lot of time under snow each year. It obviously copes with different conditions that it would have normally. Any of my garden plants I picture on the wiki obviously don't need cold to grow. Many of them I've shared with John Lonsdale who lives in a colder climate and they have done fine there too so they may be tolerant of colder winters as well. And seed from different population may behave differently. I have different bloom times for some of the same species that originated in different areas and some increase rapidly and others do not. Ron Ratko's seed as I have mentioned in the past is a great resource since he describes the conditions where he collected which allows you to get some idea of how those populations grow. Mary Sue From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 11:24:48 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: insulation; was RE: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:24:47 +0000 Hi Jim: "Alberto, when I read "insulation" my first thought was insulation against >heat. But as I read on, I realize that you mean insulation to retain heat." It is because the thread is on Hippeastrums, that demand warm conditions for as long as possible. Their supposed or actual hardiness is something very different. They come from hot parts of the wiorld. Styrofoam boxes (widely used in the States for carrying living fish) are also excellent for insulating plants against sun. Using pot color to advantange is completely overlooked. I use both white and black containers depending on the plant and it is almost incredible the temperature difference in either when placed side to side in full sun. "I've cooked many a plant by trying to grow it in a black plastic pot in full >sun. >What are some good techniques for keeping pots in full sun from getting too >hot?" Mix in styrofoam containers in full sun does not get overheated. WHITE plastic pots or containers are also superb. BIGGER containers take longer to heat up. Plunging material is good to insulate pots. If it is clear if will disperse heat. If is dark (ideally BLACK) it will act as a heat trpa. Rock is also very good to retain heat. A greenhouse can be turned into a heat trap if part of the ground is replaced by a crushed rock bed. I have used a charcoal layer as a heat trap in frames with fantastic results. In your case, I would move to white containers. Many plants like Boophane, Brunsvigia, Tulbaghias, Amaryllis, Trimezias, Drimia, african "Scillas" and lots others need to be "roasted" to grow on and flower. All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From irisman@ameritech.net Mon Jul 25 11:44:12 2005 Message-Id: <000a01c5912f$1268ddc0$5ad8fea9@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29 malicious script detected Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:39:40 -0500 Accessing this page at the Miscellaneous boldface and then at the Accented characters site led my computer stropping and a "malicious script detected" message occurring. Notify webmaster? BE AWARE... I have Windows XP equipped with Norton Antivirus Regards to all --Adam Fikso ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 10:24 AM Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 30, Issue 29 > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org From jshields@indy.net Mon Jul 25 12:04:32 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050725105245.01f38640@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Brodiaea and Triteleia pictures Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:04:43 -0500 Hi all, Some of these plants grow well with "excessive" cold, too. I have growing and blooming in my rock garden both Brodiaea coronaria and B. elegans. Incidentally, both of these did lousy in my greenhouse before I tried them outdoors in the ground. We grow others in a regular bed in the ground, including Triteleia ixioides scabra, T. bridgesii, Dichelostemma congestum, and Brodiaea californica. We never tried these in the greenhouse. I'd be glad to try other species in this family outdoors in the ground or in the rock garden if anyone wants to supply a few bulbs. Test results would be returned in one year. Regards, Jim Shields in central Indiana ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From Pat.Colville@JHResearchUSA.com Mon Jul 25 13:51:33 2005 Message-Id: <0ED36EAA5B228C4CB9518A1ADFC33A240547B8@fnpmail.usa.hardie.win> From: "Pat Colville" Subject: About Pacific BX 94 Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:52:27 -0700 Sorry I missed your message. I have been on vacation To join the Pacific bulb society is $25. US for international members. Membership is required of those who wish to order anything from the BX. The answer is you can pay dues in cash, money orders or credit card by way of PAYPAL. Please also include one of our application forms found on our website. Pat Colville Pacific Bulb Society Membership Coordinator 1555 Washburn RD Pasadena, CA 91105 USA "THIS DOCUMENT IS INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE PARTY TO WHOM IT IS ADDRESSED AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION WHICH IS CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this document in error, please return it to the originator or notify the originator and ensure its destruction. Any dissemination or copying of this document and its attachments by anyone other than the addressees is strictly prohibited." -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Myke Ashley-Cooper Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:24 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] About Pacific BX 94 Can I send real folding dollars to join please? Address? Regards Myke _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From totototo@pacificcoast.net Mon Jul 25 14:02:30 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:15:25 -0700 On 25 Jul 05 at 14:18, Alberto Castillo wrote: > ...In both cases, shallow or deep pots, most of the volume is > useless as it is saturated with water. The problem, already > discussed, is how to have this excess water leave the pots. Alberto and I have disagreed somewhat on this point before, but I'll repeat: The solution to saturated pots is *very* simple[1]: make sure there is a capillary connection from the pot to the substrate (soil, sand, plunge bed, whatever). In The Good Old Days when (some) alpine houses had terra cotta pots in plunge benches, the pots were carefully "wrung" into place to ensure capillary contact between contents and the plunge material (usually sand). Also in this situation, crocking was not put in the pots as it would prevent capillary contact. In really desperate straits, as for example large hanging pots of fuchsias, I have even resorted to inserting a length of coarse jute string into the drainage holes. Similar to the ancient story of stealing a huge vat of wine by using a string... IIRC, Alberto pointed out that pot temperature remains an issue, that terra cotta provides evaporative cooling which may be undesirable. Hence plastic is preferable, at least for pots not plunged. I won't argue on this point. Some of you may have seen the dog-and-pony show put on by Phil Pearson and Steve Doonan of Grand Ridge Nursery, Issaquah, Washington. This talk (well worth attending if you have a chance) emphasizes the need to have lots of oxygen at the roots of alpines, and touches on the relation between water retention and pot geometry. I suspect our bulbs have the same issues. Footnote [1]: Of course, if you don't over-pot in the first place, the problem won't arise, but there's a natural desire to give the roots lots of room. And, barring saturated soil, many plants do much better in big pots than small. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From msittner@mcn.org Mon Jul 25 14:36:04 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050725112452.04c2d4f0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: malicious script detected not Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:33:14 -0700 Dear Adam, I'm not sure what you are saying. The Accented Characters doc and the Accented Characters html accessed from the Miscellaneous Wiki page are not virused and not malicious either. Perhaps Norton sees the different characters and assumes there is a problem? As Mark Wilcox introduces what he is doing with these words: "Windows incorporates a method to semi-logically be able to generate any of the accented characters without resorting to a reference chart, or, alternatively, type in a foreign language, typically western European, that uses our alphabet with accented characters, such as Spanish, French, German, Portuguese, and so forth without learning said language's non-QWERTY keyboard in order to access the characters." He has examples of the kinds of characters you can write. In order to protect the wiki we do not allow file extensions to be loaded that can have viruses attached. Mark uploaded the "doc" through ftp during the time when he was a wiki administrator and it is fine. Mary Sue >Accessing this page at the Miscellaneous boldface and then at the >Accented characters site led my computer stropping and a "malicious script >detected" message occurring. From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 16:22:05 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:22:04 +0000 >From: "Rodger Whitlock" "Footnote [1]: Of course, if you don't over-pot in the first >place, the problem won't arise, but there's a natural desire to >give the roots lots of room. And, barring saturated soil, many >plants do much better in big pots than small." Dear Rodger: Great to hear of you again. Perhaps we are saying the same thing altogether. Overpotting is not a problem, nor should if the mix and drainage is adequate. In the past, as these root processes were completely unknown small pots were used as underpotting was interpreted as the solution for obvious cultivation problems. Mix in small pots would dry off more rapidly. My current research for two years has been on using the largest possible containers. Many of you know about this as I have been mentioning the amazing results to most bulb friends. Lots of room to the roots make all the difference. But, since most of us can not grow our plants in the open ground, big pots is the best B option, AMARYLLIDS in particular. But, big pots even with perfect drainage holes take long to dry off. Of course this is a blessing in hto weather. All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Mon Jul 25 19:20:42 2005 Message-Id: <000a01c5916f$64cc38b0$43145351@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: brunsvigia Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:20:06 +0200 Hello, Is there anyone who have a few brunsvigia Josephinae for sale?And my second question is;can I put my amaryllis belladonna outside without protection for rain?our summery in Belgium can be rainy. Regards, Marie-Paule Usda 7 Belgium From myke@new.co.za Mon Jul 25 23:39:46 2005 Message-Id: <000501c59193$b7005700$e470ef9b@mykecbcb148b69> From: "Myke Ashley-Cooper" Subject: About Pacific BX 94 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:29:12 +0200 Thanks Pat Occasionally people send me dollars from the USA for my cartoons (www.cartoons4fun.com, etc) so I popped some into an envelope addressed to you. Hopefully they will reach you and not "fall out" on their way! ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Colville To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] About Pacific BX 94 Sorry I missed your message. I have been on vacation To join the Pacific bulb society is $25. US for international members. Membership is required of those who wish to order anything from the BX. The answer is you can pay dues in cash, money orders or credit card by way of PAYPAL. Please also include one of our application forms found on our website. Pat Colville Pacific Bulb Society Membership Coordinator 1555 Washburn RD Pasadena, CA 91105 USA "THIS DOCUMENT IS INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE PARTY TO WHOM IT IS ADDRESSED AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION WHICH IS CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this document in error, please return it to the originator or notify the originator and ensure its destruction. Any dissemination or copying of this document and its attachments by anyone other than the addressees is strictly prohibited." -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Myke Ashley-Cooper Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:24 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] About Pacific BX 94 Can I send real folding dollars to join please? Address? Regards Myke _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From vikingdoc@earthlink.net Mon Jul 25 21:35:12 2005 Message-Id: <410-22005722613619930@earthlink.net> From: "Kathy Stokmanis" Subject: Hydrogen peroxide aeration? Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:36:19 -0700 On another list it was recommended to add hydrogen peroxide when watering plants (Hoyas, in this instance) in order to directly supply oxygen to the roots and increase aeration. Being an uninformed neophyte, I don't know if this is plausible for bulbs, or even for hoyas, or is one of those myths perpetuated by mysterious internet forces. Any comments or jeers? Kathy Stokmanis Northern California, Crocosmia are in bloom! Spraying with insecticidal soap every other week since early spring appears to have stopped the thrips, mites or whatever that were ruining or killing them for the past two years. From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Jul 25 22:24:09 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Hydrogen peroxide aeration? Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:24:08 +0000 >From: "Kathy Stokmanis" >On another list it was recommended to add hydrogen peroxide when watering >plants (Hoyas, in this instance) in order to directly supply oxygen to the >roots and increase aeration. Being an uninformed neophyte, I don't know if >this is plausible for bulbs, or even for hoyas, or is one of those myths >perpetuated by mysterious internet forces. Any comments or jeers? Hi Kathy: Hydrogen peroxide solution has been used for long to make old seed "resurrect". After some time the outer coats of a number of type of seeds become hard and would not let oxygen in, most important to assist in the embryo germinating. By using peroxide you force the oxygen in by a chemical process with a reactive product. But, if your mix is not open and porous (and Hoyas come from well drained tropical soils) no amount of any chemical will make it so. It is all about physics of the soil not its chemical properties. Even if you add oxygen in a chemical product, with which other will you extract carbon dioxide or methane? Besides, the peroxide will react with the elements of the soil, blocking some and making other soluble that were not in the original plan of the plants' needs. The peroxide treatment of seeds is on a fixed period: you can not leave them there indefinitely or it will kill them All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ From crinum@libero.it Tue Jul 26 07:40:14 2005 Message-Id: <000801c591d7$950758d0$64fea8c0@6b6625a8caff485> From: "Alberto Grossi" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:45:54 +0200 Dear All, no one answered me how to sow the seeds of H. reticulatum. May anyone help me before I lose all seeds? Thank you Alberto Italy From hyline@tampabay.rr.com Tue Jul 26 09:24:13 2005 Message-Id: <000501c591e5$50d21250$6600a8c0@Hymenocallis> From: "Kevin D. Preuss" Subject: Hippeastrum reticulatum seeds Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:24:13 -0400 Alberto, Just set them on top of the soil and water in. Just like so many other amaryllids. If they are from the var. striatifolium, half will have the white midrib and half will not. Good luck! Kevin Preuss www.Amaryllis-Plus.com From crinum@libero.it Tue Jul 26 09:28:12 2005 Message-Id: From: "crinum@libero.it" Subject: Hippeastrum reticulatum seeds Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:28:11 +0200 thank to all. Alberto ---------- Initial Header ----------- From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org To : "Pacific Bulb Society" pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Cc : Date : Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:24:13 -0400 Subject : Re: [pbs] Hippeastrum reticulatum seeds > Alberto, > Just set them on top of the soil and water in. Just like so many other > amaryllids. If they are from the var. striatifolium, half will have the > white midrib and half will not. > Good luck! > Kevin Preuss > www.Amaryllis-Plus.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > Alberto Grossi Italy ____________________________________________________________ Libero Flat, sempre a 4 Mega a 19,95 euro al mese! Abbonati subito su http://www.libero.it From jshields@indy.net Tue Jul 26 10:01:29 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050726085400.01f0c8b8@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Hippeastrum reticulatum seeds Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:01:42 -0500 Hi Alberto & Kevin, I just planted my first seeds of Hippeastrum reticulatum this year. The seeds were planted on the surface of my usual gritty mix, then covered with ca 1/4 inch of sand. The pot was covered with plastic and placed in a saucer, and the whole thing was set under fluorescent lights, 16 hrs/day. I watered whenever the sauce was empty. The seeds were planted on 18 May 2005, and in the past week the first leaves have erupted. Out of ca 12 seeds planted, about 8 seedlings are showing a leaf. The seeds arrived looking somewhat squashed, in spite of having travelled in a padded envelope. I was quite discouraged, but planted them anyway. I'm sure glad I did! Of the 8 seedlings, it looks like one will be var. striatifolium. 8 seeds do not make a valid statistical sample, of course. Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From osmani_baullosa@yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 14:21:28 2005 Message-Id: <20050726182127.20537.qmail@web30511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Osmani Baullosa Subject: brunsvigia Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:21:27 -0700 (PDT) "And my second question is;can I put my amaryllis belladonna outside without protection for rain?our summery in Belgium can be rainy. Regards, Marie-Paule Usda 7 Belgium " Dear Marie-Paule, A neighbor of mine waters his Amaryllis belladonna plants all year round, 'cause they are planted among other species that could not stand drought. In central Chile it only rains from the end of Autumn to the beginning of Spring. However, my neighbor's "naked ladies" are totally indiferent to this extra watering he provides them in summertime. If your Amaryllis belladonna are planted on the ground, try not to move them so often. After trasplanting they might take several years to bloom again. Hope this helps you... Cheers, Osmani --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Tue Jul 26 14:45:50 2005 Message-Id: <000501c59212$283c3c30$770a5351@kieken> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: brunsvigia Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:45:13 +0200 Hello Osmani, Thank You for the information,my 'naked lady' stands in a pot and dry at this moment,I must see what my naked lady does ,I have them just 2 months.I am a real beginner.The pbs I gladly read, they have an enormous source of information of concerning the complete world.Thanks All. Marie-Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "Osmani Baullosa" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] brunsvigia > "And my second question is;can I put my amaryllis belladonna outside without protection for rain?our summery in Belgium can be rainy. > Regards, > Marie-Paule > Usda 7 Belgium " > > > Dear Marie-Paule, > > A neighbor of mine waters his Amaryllis belladonna plants all year round, 'cause they are planted among other species that could not stand drought. In central Chile it only rains from the end of Autumn to the beginning of Spring. > > However, my neighbor's "naked ladies" are totally indiferent to this extra watering he provides them in summertime. > > If your Amaryllis belladonna are planted on the ground, try not to move them so often. After trasplanting they might take several years to bloom again. > > Hope this helps you... > > Cheers, > > Osmani > > > > > --------------------------------- > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From dejager@bulbargence.com Tue Jul 26 16:11:41 2005 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: brunsvigia Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:13:48 +0200 Marie Paule, The problem is not in the summer because it does nnot lmmind some humidity. In the winter you need to protect the leaves against the frost, to allow the plant to grow and make up his reserves. Salutations Lauw le 26/07/05 1:20, Marie-Paule à marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be a écrit : > Is there anyone who have a few brunsvigia Josephinae for sale?And my second > question is;can I put my amaryllis belladonna outside without protection for > rain?our summery in Belgium can be rainy. Lauw de Jager Bulb'Argence Mas d'Argence 30300 Fourques France tel 31(0)466 016 519 fax 0466 011 245 http://www.bulbargence.com From totototo@pacificcoast.net Tue Jul 26 17:37:46 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Hydrogen peroxide aeration? Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:50:45 -0700 On 25 Jul 05 at 18:36, Kathy Stokmanis wrote: > On another list it was recommended to add hydrogen peroxide > when watering plants (Hoyas, in this instance) in order to > directly supply oxygen to the roots and increase aeration. > Being an uninformed neophyte, I don't know if this is > plausible for bulbs, or even for hoyas, or is one of those > myths perpetuated by mysterious internet forces. Any comments > or jeers? As a chemist, it sounds to me like a theory devised by someone who doesn't understand what's going on. It's not *oxygen* that plants need at their roots, but *air* *exchange*. Of course, that subsumes a good supply of oxygen, but I'm quite certain that oxygen is hardly the sole issue. If your plants are suffering because of lack of oxygen at the roots (ooops, what did I just say?), the solution is to use a potting mix with better aeration. Hydrogen peroxide has one valuable horticultural use: sterilizing seed before sowing. There are some seed-borne diseases that can be controlled that way. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From totototo@pacificcoast.net Tue Jul 26 17:37:47 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:50:45 -0700 On 25 Jul 05 at 20:22, Alberto Castillo wrote: > ...My current research for two years has been on using > the largest possible containers. Many of you know about this > as I have been mentioning the amazing results to most bulb > friends. Lots of room to the roots make all the difference. > But, since most of us can not grow our plants in the open > ground, big pots is the best B option, AMARYLLIDS in > particular. But, big pots even with perfect drainage holes > take long to dry off. Of course this is a blessing in hto > weather. Just this morning I was repotting my tecophilaeas, and haved moved them all from 2.5 liter pots to 8 liter ones, roughly 250mm high and diameter. I am looking forward to seeing how they do with more root room. But they'll still get overhead protection from our winter rains. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From john@johnlonsdale.net Tue Jul 26 17:52:42 2005 Message-Id: <20050726215242.292904C005@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "John Lonsdale" Subject: Tecophilea repot/ pot size Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:52:39 -0400 Flying in the face of expert advice I recommend under-potting bulbs, at least smaller bulbs of the 'alpine' persuasion. I don't grow anything bigger than Muscari macrocarpum in a pot. I standardize in 2 1/2", 3 1/2" or 4 1/2" square Kordlok pots, or bigger round pots if necessary, the latter adding extra width but not much extra depth. All are plastic. Everything goes into a mix of 50% perlite, 50% BioComp BC5. I have found the secret to be deep planting, in a 4 1/2" pot, for example, the corms/bulbs etc. get planted no more than 1 1/2-2" from the bottom of the pot, compost mix all the way to the bottom - the drainage is in the compost. They get fed with a dilute in-line feed with every watering. It works very well indeed. The year I got greedy and over-potted a bunch of Tecophilea was the year I lost most of them. These bulbs like company and minimal 'spare' room. I'm always mortified when I see the size of Jane's pots - so she can tell us how her system works so well for her. The bottom line, I think, is that there's no right way, just a need to be very familiar with what your tendencies are with respect to watering, and how you can best manage them. I would also suggest you group like plants together and standardize composts and pot sizes as much as possible. Best, J. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From IntarsiaCo@aol.com Tue Jul 26 18:51:02 2005 Message-Id: <6d.49fee44c.30181852@aol.com> From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Tecophilea repot/ pot size also aril/arilbred iris Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:50:58 EDT In a message dated 7/26/2005 5:52:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, john@johnlonsdale.net writes: Flying in the face of expert advice I recommend under-potting bulbs, at least smaller bulbs of the 'alpine' persuasion I thought that I underpotted the minor bulbs until Ian Young's recent lectures in the US. He crowds them in, cheek to jowl. But he repots every year and I tend to skip a season. How often do you repot, John? On another potting issue, I am forced to pot up a small collection of aril and arilbred iris for transfer to another garden next spring. I have started removing them from the outside sand bed and dividing and cleaning, dusting with sulphur and potting in a well drained soilless mix but with the rhizome or bulbous bits in coarse sand. I haven't quite figured out where to keep them, sunny frame, dry under a greenhouse bench, dry on the benches, plunged back into the sand bed. Any comments or advice would be welcome. Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, Connecticut 06755-0142 USA From dkramb@badbear.com Tue Jul 26 18:57:52 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20050726185649.01a9fc18@pop.bizland.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Tecophilea repot/ pot size also aril/arilbred iris Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:58:07 -0400 >On another potting issue, I am forced to pot up a small collection of aril >and arilbred iris for transfer to another garden next spring. I have started >removing them from the outside sand bed and dividing and cleaning, dusting >with >sulphur and potting in a well drained soilless mix but with the rhizome or >bulbous bits in coarse sand. I haven't quite figured out where to keep them, >sunny frame, dry under a greenhouse bench, dry on the benches, plunged >back into >the sand bed. Any comments or advice would be welcome. If you mean for the short term, then on the benches is fine. If you mean over winter, then definitely plunged back into the sand bed. Freeze/thaw cycles can be deadly for aril & arilbred irises. Dennis in Cincinnati From john@johnlonsdale.net Tue Jul 26 18:59:03 2005 Message-Id: <20050726225903.55B664C005@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "John Lonsdale" Subject: Tecophilea repot/ pot size also aril/arilbred iris Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:59:00 -0400 Mark, I don't generally touch pots of seedling bulbs at all until they have had 3 seasons of growth, 2 if they are very robust growers. Chasing around tiny bulbs is a nightmare, especially if your 3 1/2" pot of crocus seedlings has 50+ tiny corms in it which look not much different from the compost mix. Thereafter I completely repot everything every year. In some cases it isn't absolutely necessary but the bulbs generally do better. You can get away with every other year, in which case it is often recommended to replace the compost down to the level of the bulbs. I don't really know why and can't think of a logical reason! If I'm going to leave them for two years without repotting I just clean up the 'grass' and put them back in the greenhouse. I would recommend keeping your aril/arilbred divisions completely dry (but not desiccated) until mid-September, at which point you can give them moisture with minimal chance of rot. I'd keep them dry under the greenhouse bench. J. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From janemcgary@earthlink.net Tue Jul 26 20:12:17 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050726165954.0113b198@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Tecophilea repot/ pot size Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:12:14 -0700 John Lonsdale wrote >Flying in the face of expert advice I recommend under-potting bulbs, at >least smaller bulbs of the 'alpine' persuasion. I don't grow anything >bigger than Muscari macrocarpum in a pot. I standardize in 2 1/2", 3 1/2" >or 4 1/2" square Kordlok pots, or bigger round pots if necessary, the latter >adding extra width but not much extra depth. All are plastic. Everything >goes into a mix of 50% perlite, 50% BioComp BC5. ... I'm >always mortified when I see the size of Jane's pots - so she can tell us how >her system works so well for her. There are a lot of differences between John's style of growing and mine; as he notes, I use clay pots from 4 inches diameter up to 10 inches, and also some larger plastic mesh bins about 12 inches square and deep. These pots are plunged to the rim in plain sharp sand in frames, and I feel the mesh ones in particular offer an environment not very different from growing in the open ground. This is reinforced by the fact that my potting soil is totally different from John's: 50% sharp, coarse sand from a mountain river at some elevation, 25% ground horticultural pumice with fines, and 25% sieved forest loam. In other words, nearly a scree mix. I'm sure the pumice has a lot to do with it and apologize in advance to everybody who can't get it in the quantities we use it here (I just ordered 12 cubic yards to be delivered next week, which should last me at least 3 years). I think that John has to water more than I do, because my frames draw up groundwater in a normal winter and I may not take out the hose for 3 or 4 months, even though the plants are all covered. We both use liquid fertilizer delivered through an in-line tank system, but I believe I apply it less often. Also, I repot only every other year; the collection is so large that that's all I can manage. By the time I empty a pot, the humus content of the soil appears greatly diminished. As long as the nutrition is there, however, it shouldn't matter if the plants are restricted in space. One reason I use large pots is to get the depth, as John also suggests. Another is that I like to grow a lot of bulbs in one container to save space in the frames, and to produce an attractive flowering group. The English, with their plant shows, like to have very crowded pots--and so do I, but I also allow for increase because of the two-year cycle of potting. I'm just beginning to repot the current year's bulbs and have extracted some Tecophilaea for the surplus list already. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From arnold@nj.rr.com Tue Jul 26 20:56:46 2005 Message-Id: <42E6DBCB.5000108@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Hydrogen peroxide aeration? Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:56:43 -0400 The peroxide idea reminds me of the athletes who would inhale oxygen during athletic contests believing that it would help in performance. We only remove a small part of the oxygen in the air during each inhalation. So there is always surplus oxygen in each exhalation. Only comes into play when the oxygen composition of the air falls dangerously low like Mt. Everest. Arnold New Jersey Where there is plenty of oxygen in the air along with much moisture From dszeszko@gmail.com Wed Jul 27 00:48:36 2005 Message-Id: <9912b0b6050726214835f48272@mail.gmail.com> From: Dennis Szeszko Subject: New Photos on the Wiki Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:48:36 -0500 To all: A general message to let everyone know that I recently added some pictures and two new genus pages to the Wiki. 1. I added some pictures of Nothoscordum bivalve. Oddly, there was a description already present but no pictures so I took the liberty of uploading some. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Nothoscordum 2. I also added a genus page about Weldenia http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Weldenia 3. Lastly, I added a genus page about Govenia. There has been some debate in the past about including orchids, but since there are already other orchids on the wiki (eg Bletilla, Ponerorchis, and Calypso) I'm assuming that this is alright. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Govenia Comments, questions, or any feedback is welcome. -Dennnis From johngrimshaw@tiscali.co.uk Wed Jul 27 03:09:06 2005 Message-Id: <004301c5927a$0e6a9aa0$0cee403e@John> From: Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:30:52 +0100 Every year, about this time, I am vexed by the sight of bare soil where the spring bulbs have gone dormant. I hate bare soil as it seems such a wasted opportunity to be growing something, so I am looking for plants to form a low carpet over these areas. Ideally these should be perennial, need no care or supplementary water, form a mat over the area, but not offer any resistance to an emerging shoot, or any competition to the growing bulbs that are the most important occupants of the space. Certain Sedums are suitable, and in a rock garden setting there would be many options from the genus, but the areas I need to cover are in a 'woodland' garden with shade for part of the day. Yesterday, taking advantage of moistish ground and the forecast of two or three days of wet weather (yippee!) I put out some plants of Pratia pedunculata and Leptinella (Cotula) 'Platt's Black' over snowdrop patches. Last year I used a rather good bright green Leptinella that I had from Wayne Roderick (any suggestions for identification would be welcome!). It has tolerated the conditions quite well, but for some obscure reason I only planted it in areas where there is only a narrow fringe of 'bare' ground between thick herbaceous plants and the edge of the bed. In other areas there are several square feet of bare ground to cover in the case of the bigger patches of snowdrops, so some vigour is needed. I should be very interested to hear what other people use or could suggest. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Garden Manager, Colesbourne Gardens Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk From arnold@nj.rr.com Wed Jul 27 07:23:46 2005 Message-Id: <42E76E45.8030001@nj.rr.com> From: arnold trachtenberg Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:21:41 -0400 John: I have used Welsh Poppy ( meconopsis cambrica " Frances Perry") to cover a large area of bulbs to include lycoris, tulips and some dwarf narcissus. It doesn't seem to interfere with any early spring growth of these bulbs and the spikes of lycoris flowers punch right through without a problem. My question to the group is what to use with the early summer growing foliage of colchicum's once the foliage dies back leaving the bar ground that John references. Arnold > > > From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 27 08:23:37 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1sdb1u@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:23:35 -0400 One plant which works very well in our climate for this purpose is Begonia grandis (B. evansiana). There are many perennial plants which can be planted over bubls, but the particular advantage of this begonia is its late emergence. It makes little if any light competition for vernal ephemerals. It's very handsome in late summer/early autumn when it blooms, too. The flowers themselves are ornamental, and so too are the developing seed capsules. It's big: plants are easily thirty inches high, and individual leaves can be 5 inches by 8 inches or more. It's just about weedy here, but in a cooler climate is probably much more restrained. Another one to consider is Begonia sutherlandii. In this area this one is marginally hardy: some growers report it to be reliably perennial, others report occasional or frequent winter killing. This one is much smaller, only about eight inches at the most, and eventually has bright orange flowers. Another unseemly choice for this climate are the various Mexican Oxalis. These seem to survive the winter reliably, but do not begin to grow until very late in the year - sometimes not until June. The ones which work best here are O. regnellii, O. corymbosa 'aureoreticulata', O. deppei, and in sheltered places O. lasiandra. Another thing to consider: many annuals, especially those which take three or four months to mature from seed. Sometime around the middle of June self-sown Impatiens wallerana begin to bloom in this garden. By then, plants bought earlier in the year from suppliers of bedding plants have been in the ground for perhaps two months, and these self-sown plants are tiny in comparison. But in the heat and humidity of our summers, they grow rapidly. Cuphea ignea is another one I like. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I was out in the garden early this morning to take photos - only to have the camera lens fog up in the heat and humidity. -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of johngrimshaw@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:31 AM To: Alpine-L, the Electronic Rock Garden Society; postings copyright by authors. Cc: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Every year, about this time, I am vexed by the sight of bare soil where the spring bulbs have gone dormant. I hate bare soil as it seems such a wasted opportunity to be growing something, so I am looking for plants to form a low carpet over these areas. Ideally these should be perennial, need no care or supplementary water, form a mat over the area, but not offer any resistance to an emerging shoot, or any competition to the growing bulbs that are the most important occupants of the space. Certain Sedums are suitable, and in a rock garden setting there would be many options from the genus, but the areas I need to cover are in a 'woodland' garden with shade for part of the day. Yesterday, taking advantage of moistish ground and the forecast of two or three days of wet weather (yippee!) I put out some plants of Pratia pedunculata and Leptinella (Cotula) 'Platt's Black' over snowdrop patches. Last year I used a rather good bright green Leptinella that I had from Wayne Roderick (any suggestions for identification would be welcome!). It has tolerated the conditions quite well, but for some obscure reason I only planted it in areas where there is only a narrow fringe of 'bare' ground between thick herbaceous plants and the edge of the bed. In other areas there are several square feet of bare ground to cover in the case of the bigger patches of snowdrops, so some vigour is needed. I should be very interested to hear what other people use or could suggest. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Garden Manager, Colesbourne Gardens Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Jul 27 08:37:48 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1sdfbn@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:37:44 -0400 Arnold, I've pondered this question of what to grow with Colchicum for years. There really isn't much of a window available here: the Colchcium occupy the space from the time the flowers appear until the foliage dies. They are not above ground for perhaps two and a half months. Any cover for Colchicum has to be small enough to allow the Colchicum flowers to be seen. It also has to be able to survive amongst the Colchicum foliage. All things considered, my favorite has been Ceratostigma plumbaginoides. It gets off to a relatively late start and so does not provide much if any competition to the Colchicum. The color of the flowers compliments the Colchicum flower colors. The Ceratostigma forms a nice mat of foliage which keeps most weeds down and prevents mud splashing. This is a good choice for the big garden Colchicum. If you like sweet alyssum, and I do very much, the Colchicum patch is a good place for it. It's low enough compliment the Colchicum flowers, and its scent is a plus. For the smaller, late-winter bloomers, you're on your own. In my experience, these rot if they are moist enough to support the growth of companion plants during their summer dormancy. Go inorganic there: use attractive stone chips or pea gravel or bird grit. One more thing, Arnold: you mentioned using Meconopsis cambrica as a ground cover. Does it behave as an annual for your or as a perennial? I've had trouble keeping the orange-flowered forms of Meconopsis cambrica here. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the temperature got down to about 75 degrees F last night. From johngrimshaw@tiscali.co.uk Wed Jul 27 08:50:46 2005 Message-Id: <00a201c592a9$cbd3c970$0cee403e@John> From: Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:50:08 +0100 Walking through the garden this morning I realised that I had forgotten to mention Begonia grandis, which I spread around for the purpose last year, and is now, as Jim says, coming up to make a useful cover. B. sutherlandii does the same, and probably B. sinensis, although I've never got this one going, for some reason. Self-sown Impatiens of various species are also good, but without irrigation, however, they and the begonias don't reach maximum potential, so I grow the main plants of them in a watered area. What Begonia species do people find hardy? John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Garden Manager, Colesbourne Gardens Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk From arnold@nj.rr.com Wed Jul 27 08:55:49 2005 Message-Id: <42E783E0.3060304@nj.rr.com> From: arnold trachtenberg Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:53:52 -0400 > >One more thing, Arnold: you mentioned using Meconopsis cambrica as a ground >cover. Does it behave as an annual for your or as a perennial? I've had >trouble keeping the orange-flowered forms of Meconopsis cambrica here. > > > Jim: I picked up a couple of plants from Seneca Hill Perennials three or four years ago and is is now my ground cover of choice for areas below lilies. I have broadcast seed around an area under a chinese quince that has a number of lilies such as L. canadense and L. rubellum growing. The meconopsis slows down in the current weather I assume due to the heat and not the availability of moisture. It returns each year and doesn't get any special mulch other than leaving leaf litter in place during the winter. If there is an interest I can send some seed into the BX, although it is not a geophyte it seems to be a good companion for geophytes. Arnold From osmani_baullosa@yahoo.com Wed Jul 27 10:32:18 2005 Message-Id: <20050727143217.60754.qmail@web30515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Osmani Baullosa Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Though I like the Florid Desert look :-), I often suffer from the lack of space. Then, I place my pots (with summer flowering bulbs) on that bare soil; ovbiously on saucers, so the water never reaches the bulbs below the soil surface. As these bulbs need to "breath", I put saucers on stones forming a circle. An urban solution? Maybe... Osmani johngrimshaw@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Every year, about this time, I am vexed by the sight of bare soil where the spring bulbs have gone dormant. I hate bare soil as it seems such a wasted opportunity to be growing something, so I am looking for plants to form a low carpet over these areas. Ideally these should be perennial, need no care or supplementary water, form a mat over the area, but not offer any resistance to an emerging shoot, or any competition to the growing bulbs that are the most important occupants of the space. Certain Sedums are suitable, and in a rock garden setting there would be many options from the genus, but the areas I need to cover are in a 'woodland' garden with shade for part of the day. Yesterday, taking advantage of moistish ground and the forecast of two or three days of wet weather (yippee!) I put out some plants of Pratia pedunculata and Leptinella (Cotula) 'Platt's Black' over snowdrop patches. Last year I used a rather good bright green Leptinella that I had from Wayne Roderick (any suggestions for identification would be welcome!). It has tolerated the conditions quite well, but for some obscure reason I only planted it in areas where there is only a narrow fringe of 'bare' ground between thick herbaceous plants and the edge of the bed. In other areas there are several square feet of bare ground to cover in the case of the bigger patches of snowdrops, so some vigour is needed. I should be very interested to hear what other people use or could suggest. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Garden Manager, Colesbourne Gardens Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page From btankers@cbgnt.chicagobotanic.org Wed Jul 27 10:42:47 2005 Message-Id: <52857FDB394B7E45BA1F2E60D7313E2A0182BDF6@cbgmail.chicagobotanic.org> From: "Boyce Tankersley" Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:46:21 -0500 Tricyrtis make a nice companion plant for the woodland spring bulbs - it comes up relatively late. Ditto many of the Arisaemas. Hostas and the early Corydalis happily co-exist - to my surprise. I grow some dwarf conifers and prune them to keep them low enough to let the spring bulbs come through. Phlox subulata, the old standby, still serves well as does Cerastium tomentosum in the hotter, drier beds. Many of the midwestern prairie species come up relatively late and will be in flower from midsummer to fall. Liriope spicata is a bit too aggressive but Ophiopogon works well in slightly warmer climates. Boyce Tankersley btankers@chicagobotanic.org -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of johngrimshaw@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 1:31 AM To: Alpine-L, the Electronic Rock Garden Society; postings copyright by authors. Cc: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Every year, about this time, I am vexed by the sight of bare soil where the spring bulbs have gone dormant. I hate bare soil as it seems such a wasted opportunity to be growing something, so I am looking for plants to form a low carpet over these areas. Ideally these should be perennial, need no care or supplementary water, form a mat over the area, but not offer any resistance to an emerging shoot, or any competition to the growing bulbs that are the most important occupants of the space. Certain Sedums are suitable, and in a rock garden setting there would be many options from the genus, but the areas I need to cover are in a 'woodland' garden with shade for part of the day. Yesterday, taking advantage of moistish ground and the forecast of two or three days of wet weather (yippee!) I put out some plants of Pratia pedunculata and Leptinella (Cotula) 'Platt's Black' over snowdrop patches. Last year I used a rather good bright green Leptinella that I had from Wayne Roderick (any suggestions for identification would be welcome!). It has tolerated the conditions quite well, but for some obscure reason I only planted it in areas where there is only a narrow fringe of 'bare' ground between thick herbaceous plants and the edge of the bed. In other areas there are several square feet of bare ground to cover in the case of the bigger patches of snowdrops, so some vigour is needed. I should be very interested to hear what other people use or could suggest. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Garden Manager, Colesbourne Gardens Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 12:28:02 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050727092109.010afa10@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:27:56 -0700 Arnold wrote, I have used Welsh Poppy ( meconopsis cambrica " Frances Perry") to >cover a large area of bulbs to include lycoris, tulips and some dwarf >narcissus. It doesn't seem to interfere with any early spring growth of >these bulbs and the spikes of lycoris flowers punch right through >without a problem. My question to the group is what to use with the >early summer growing foliage of colchicum's once the foliage dies back >leaving the bar ground that John references. Apparently Welsh poppy is not the pest on the Atlantic coast that it can be on the Pacific. It got into my garden hitch-hiking on a nursery plant as seeds, and I let it go, not knowing what the result would be. It's one of the worst weeds in the garden now, coming up everywhere -- even in the dry bulb frame! Here it's perennial and very hard to pull out completely, like a dandelion. It forms large clumps that can interfere with spring bulbs, in my opinion. On a spring bulb bed here, I have the following at the moment: Shirley poppies which reseed (maybe too tall, and not a ground cover); tomatoes, which like similar conditions; the flat-growing biennial Campanula incurva; clumps of Nepeta mussinii. I've just added some of the newly marketed "Princess" alstroemeria hybrids, to see if any of them can survive our winters (I tend to doubt it, but even at up to $20 a large pot, they're worth a trial). Alstroemerias, if hardy, can be rampant growers, but their spreading rhizomes coexist with other plants. Prostrate shrubs such as Arctostaphylos uva-ursi can also be grown with bulbs, or perhaps the most prostrate of the heathers, such as Calluna 'White Lawn'. Some of the prostrate conifers are loose-growing enough to work in this regard; I have a prostrate pine through which bulbs and peonies emerge. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From arnold@nj.rr.com Wed Jul 27 12:51:30 2005 Message-Id: <42E7BB1D.4070009@nj.rr.com> From: arnold trachtenberg Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:49:33 -0400 Jane wrote: > >Apparently Welsh poppy is not the pest on the Atlantic coast that it can be >on the Pacific. It got into my garden hitch-hiking on a nursery plant as >seeds, and I let it go, not knowing what the result would be. It's one of >the worst weeds in the garden now, coming up everywhere -- even in the dry >bulb frame! Here it's perennial and very hard to pull out completely, like >a dandelion. It forms large clumps that can interfere with spring bulbs, in >my opinion. > > Jane: The Welsh poppy does not approach the pest category for me here at all. I am trying to encourage it on a bed beneath a quince tree and so far it's spreading slowly. I broadcast seeds in fall and in spring the plants pop up. Not sure if it returns from a root stock or just reseeds. Arnold From fossette@iol.ie Wed Jul 27 13:35:49 2005 Message-Id: <001c01c592d2$194d2200$59a8a5c2@oemcomputer> From: Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 30, Issue 31 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:39:10 +0100 Dear Arnold, if it is still you, please unsubscribe me from the list for the moment as I am up to my eyes on a project and am not getting time to read the mails. Very best wishes and many thanks, Margaret Connolly From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Wed Jul 27 18:32:03 2005 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Desert Wild Flowers Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:31:55 -0700 Okay, I didn't label the photos, but I have quickly uploaded some from our trips to the Antelope Valley California Poppy State Reserve (which had a lot more than just California poppies), and Joshua Tree National Park, from April of this year. Enjoy. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 On Jul 23, 2005, at 7:27 AM, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > Dear All, > > This spring we added a temporary page to our wiki so people could share > pictures they took of the incredible flower display this spring in the > California desert when there was above average rainfall. Most of the > pictures were taken by Lee Poulsen of Death Valley and I am sure it > took > him a lot of time to resize, name, and write about his pictures. I am > sure > that his pictures brought a number of people pleasure and we thank him > for > his efforts. > > Hesperocallis undulata pictures have been added to a permanent wiki > page, > but we will be removing the rest of the pictures and taking the Desert > page > off by the end of August. We never planned to have it be a permanent > part > of the wiki since most of the pictures do not illustrate our topic. > Anyone > who did not get a chance to look at them when Lee added them might > want to > check them out. And if there are any special pictures that others > planned > to add and didn't, there is a short window of opportunity still to do > so. > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/DesertWildFlowers > > Mary Sue > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From ixia@dcsi.net.au Wed Jul 27 21:08:35 2005 Message-Id: <001a01c59311$7a23a290$445bdccb@Ixia> From: "Bill Richardson" Subject: The King is alive Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:12:46 +1000 Alberto, I have been very ill and now recuperating from a serious illness and have not done much posting on line for ages. Still getting through the side effects of radiotherapy treatment as well. My apologies to all my friends and acquantances for not being able to participate in much. Also, my apologies for posting this here but thought it the best way to let everyone know. I hope to be back in action and well enough in a while. In the meantime yes, the King is alive: "Long Live the King." Alberto, I haven't changed my email address, so I don't know why you can't "find" me. regards, Bill Richardson Ixia King - ixia@dcsi.net.au Ixia Website: www.angelfire.com/ri/ixia Suite 101: http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/bulbs_and_plants Writers Suite: http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/strange_tales From bklehm@comcast.net Wed Jul 27 23:08:44 2005 Message-Id: From: Brook Klehm Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:08:39 -0700 Since I'm a gardener and plant collector rather than a bulb collector, per sae, bulbs have to fit into a broader scheme for the garden. Groundcovers function as a carpet to hold the garden/plant collection together in an attempt to make it look like a garden rather than a collection. On the subject of covering Colchicums, Acaena microphylla seems to function very well. It tends to die back a bit in the spring from crowding from the Colchicum foliage, but it returns with vigor after the foliage dies back. Acaenas have the annoying characteristic of spreading far and wide, though I have not (yet) been sorry I planted them. They seem to thrive in sun or light shade and thrive despite occasional dry soil. I've planted Vinca minor varieties as a floor for various parts of the garden. I am rather sorry to have planted it due to its rampant nature. Still, it covers Hyacinthella (Endymion or Scilla hispanica or whatever...) without much trouble to either. I use the California native strawberry, Fragaria californica, in the shady part of my front garden. While it appeared to be quite rambunctious the first season after planting, now, after 5 or 6 years it cohabitates well with Anomatheca laxa, Cyclamen coum and Cyclamen hederifolium, and Narcissus 'Thalia'. Another native, Whippleya modesta, a tiny relative of Philadelphus, seems to be loose enough to permit healthy bulb growth while competing with tree roots though it doesn't currently cover any bulbs. I have a "Hell Bed" outside the boundary fence which has several corms of Cyclamen trochopteranthum that are covered by Origanum microphyllum. They seem to cohabitate comfortably. The oregano is thin enough to permit the soil to dry out but is highly ornamental in the summer and fall. It self sows around a bit. I've always thought that a couple Midwestern natives, Oenothera macrocarpa (O. missouriensis) and Coreopsis verticillata selections would make excellent bulb companions since they start their growth later in the season. I've never tried them with bulbs, however. Brook Klehm Sebastopol, California, USA where we've barely gotten hot this season (so far...) From samclan@redshift.com Wed Jul 27 23:43:22 2005 Message-Id: <42E85577.5070004@redshift.com> From: Shirley Meneice Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:48:07 -0700 Maybe it's too mundane for you, but the various Thymes offer a variety of foliage colors and are very inoffensive. They require little care, can take some foot traffic and will cover your bare ground. At least they do mine in Zone 9. Shirley Meneice johngrimshaw@tiscali.co.uk wrote: >Every year, about this time, I am vexed by the sight of bare soil where the >spring bulbs have gone dormant. I hate bare soil as it seems such a wasted >opportunity to be growing something, so I am looking for plants to form a >low carpet over these areas. Ideally these should be perennial, need no care >or supplementary water, form a mat over the area, but not offer any >resistance to an emerging shoot, or any competition to the growing bulbs >that are the most important occupants of the space. > >Certain Sedums are suitable, and in a rock garden setting there would be >many options from the genus, but the areas I need to cover are in a >'woodland' garden with shade for part of the day. Yesterday, taking >advantage of moistish ground and the forecast of two or three days of wet >weather (yippee!) I put out some plants of Pratia pedunculata and Leptinella >(Cotula) 'Platt's Black' over snowdrop patches. Last year I used a rather >good bright green Leptinella that I had from Wayne Roderick (any suggestions >for identification would be welcome!). It has tolerated the conditions quite >well, but for some obscure reason I only planted it in areas where there is >only a narrow fringe of 'bare' ground between thick herbaceous plants and >the edge of the bed. In other areas there are several square feet of bare >ground to cover in the case of the bigger patches of snowdrops, so some >vigour is needed. > >I should be very interested to hear what other people use or could suggest. > >John Grimshaw > > > > >Dr John M. Grimshaw >Garden Manager, Colesbourne Gardens > >Sycamore Cottage >Colesbourne >Nr Cheltenham >Gloucestershire GL53 9NP > > >Website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 7/27/05 From msittner@mcn.org Thu Jul 28 01:45:51 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050727215637.02ac8ec0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Pot size Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:29:04 -0700 Dear All, I found the thread about pot size very interesting and certainly agree with John Lonsdale that there isn't a right way to grow bulbs. We all have slightly to very different conditions that will make what works for one person not work for someone else. I've had the experience of leaving a small bulb in a small pot and having it remain small. Once I started using deeper pots I found a lot of bulbs/corms got bigger and were more likely to bloom. Others stopped dividing into many tiny bulbs when they had greater room for roots. But then I don't really grow a lot of alpine bulbs since it is difficult for me to provide the cold conditions they might like in winter. Also I only have so much room to shelter my bulbs from the rain and those that get rained on many years don't need supplemental watering so it would be difficult for me to provide constant fertilization with each watering. Perhaps John can survive with smaller pots because he uses fresh soil every year and also fertilizes as much as he does. Like Jane I grow different plants in the same pot so I need more room. Sometimes the different bulbs are at different levels. Alberto C. pointed out to me that as long as what you put in the same pot needs the same conditions and the storage organ is different so you can tell them apart when you knock them out that planting in a community pot saves space and pots. It was the perfect solution for what to do with a batch of seedlings when you only end up with a couple of survivors. For a number of years I used to grow all my Oxalis in 4-5 inch pots and then I heard Michael Vassar speak and he mentioned that a number of the species needed really deep pots to bloom. What has amazed me was to see how giant some of these bulbs get when they are in a deep pot and how that can change in one or sometimes two seasons. I still haven't gotten some of the ones I grow to bloom so there are obviously many other factors involved. I agree with John too about repotting tiny bulbs too soon. I need to be more patient as sometimes when I dump them out I am sorry as they are so tiny it is hard to repot them. I believe Diana pointed out that you can move seedlings to a deeper pot when they are in growth if you are careful if it looks like they need it. I've now been growing Tecophilaea for a number of years and get a few blooms out of them, but nothing very spectacular so obviously I haven't figured out what they need. Leucocoryne on the other hand does quite well for me now that I give them summer warmth (which has been a bit of a challenge this summer as our upstairs hasn't gotten as hot as usual) and deep pots. Anyone grow Tecophilaea with cool summers and mild wet winters have any suggestions for me? Mary Sue From msittner@mcn.org Thu Jul 28 01:57:40 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050727222933.02ad1a80@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Desert Wild Flowers Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:40:22 -0700 Dear Lee, What a lot of work you have done to resize all those pictures. Since I have a slow connection I just started with Antelope Valley and really enjoyed looking at your pictures. That wasn't too far from some of the places we went several weeks later. Seeing those masses of color slowing come into focus was amazing. I found the Dichelostemma capitatum (CP 20, CP 21) and isn't that an Allium (CP 25, 27)? Did you figure out which one? I also enjoyed seeing Emma in the flowers again and there are a couple of you (C66, C77). Shall we copy one of those and rename it so it can be a permanent part of the wiki as a link to your wiki page? Thanks for adding those pictures so we can see Mother Nature in all her glory in an exceptional year. Mary Sue From buj.joschko@freenet.de Thu Jul 28 10:11:15 2005 Message-Id: From: "Hans und Babs Joschko" Subject: new pictures from the Andes Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:11:21 +0200 Hello, for all with interest in South American bulb-plant : On the Mystery Bulbs are some new pictures of bulb plants from the Andes. These pictures has I again from my friends received those there traveled. I know, the pictures are not perfect all, but one can win an impression like these plants there to grow - better a bad picture than no picture. Only few of us will see opportunity to have these plants locally to . If someone an idea have around which plants it act here I about an information would in such a way be pleased. To the pictures : Cara - Coch , Sama , Bolivia - these are from Bolivia Candado , Molinos, Caspala , St. Ana are from Argentina All the pictures was made in the months October - November If you are interested , please look http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/MysteryBulbs Also I would say a big "Thank You" to Susan for all her help and work with my pictures. Many greetings Hans From bonaventure@optonline.net Thu Jul 28 11:17:28 2005 Message-Id: From: bonaventure@optonline.net Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:17:15 -0400 Yes, the hardy begonias are great, but leave bare ground from the end of bulb season until mid-July when they start coming up for me here in central New Jersey. Have you tried interplanting late sprouting bulbs? Arisaema candidissimum, Arisaema consanguineum, and Amorphophallus konjac work well for me here, although the Amorph' has become somewhat of a pest. Watch out for "thuggish" groundcovers like silver Lamium or sweet woodruff, Gallium. They come up early in the year and stay low UNLESS they come up against a taller growing plant, in which case they try to compete in height, often by leaning against the growth of the victim for support. The sweet woodruff also I found is immune to slugs, but hosts them quite well. Perhaps they feed on the dead leaflets near the stem bases, but anything else coming up through them that is not rapidly sprouting and holding its leaves above the groundcover leaf level is quickly lost. By this I mean mature Arisaemas and Trilliums with leaves high up on the stem. Seedlings and low leafed plants are smothered and eaten. Bonaventure Magrys Cliffwood Beach, NJ USA zone 7 From jshields@indy.net Thu Jul 28 11:20:05 2005 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050728094246.00b02880@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Pot size Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:20:18 -0500 Hi all, My experience with South African bulbs is that many will not bloom in small pots. Now my interests in alpines are limited; other than Cyclamen, I just stick them in the ground in my one rock garden. If they grow, good; if they don't, then they don't. I take a different attitude towards my bulbs! Conditions here are central Indiana, USDA cold zone 5: 40° N latitude, 86° W longitude, elev. 700 ft (200 m.) above sea level. Greenhouse in winter, outdoors in summer. We definitely do NOT repot every year; we have too many pots to make that feasible. Scadoxus multiflorus katherinae will live for many years in a 5-in pot; but it will not bloom in so small a pot. Scadoxus puniceus will just barely bloom in a 1-gal. container (ca. 6 in X 6 in.) and even then they don't look "right." Gladiolus don't bloom in small pots (6 inches or less); they don't bloom well in 7-inch pots. They seem to need at least a 2-gal. (ca. 7 L.) container (ca. 8 inches X 8 inches) or larger. An exception is Haemanthus albiflos, which does well in 5-in to 6-in containers. Many large Crinum do not develop normally unless in at least a 5-gal. (19 L.) container; most eventually look a lot better in even larger containers. I use up to 7-gal containers. Dave Lehmiller, a leading student of Crinum in the USA, recommends using 24-inch pots for crinums. We pot Clivia seedlings up to the next size pot annually, up to 5 gal size; then we divide, because by then they have produced several offsets. Small bulbs like Freesia laxa and Albuca sp. seem to do as well in small pots as in large ones. Some Ornithogalum seem to do OK in small pots, including the large O. saundersii. I'm of several minds regarding the winter-growing Haemanthus. Most do not seem to bloom here at all, none bloom reliably except for H. barkerae. I can't sort out effects of pot size, weak winter sunshine, and other growing condition variables. Regards, Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jimmckenney@starpower.net Thu Jul 28 12:18:35 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1stq8i@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:18:31 -0400 Bonaventure Magreys wrote: "Yes, the hardy begonias are great, but leave bare ground from the end of bulb season until mid-July when they start coming up for me here in central New Jersey." By mid-July here in zone 7 Maryland, Begonia grandis is already eighteen inched to two feet high. It begins to emerge while daffodil foliage is still greenish, so in this climate it compliments some bulbs ideally. It does take awhile for them to provide total cover and become effective weed suppressors, but in the meantime nothing seems to perturb them. It's interesting to me that it seems to behave so differently only a few hundred miles north of here. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I recall reading that the sap of begonia leaves was once used to burn decorative designs into the skin of goldfish. From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Thu Jul 28 13:46:53 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: The King is alive Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:46:52 +0000 >From: "Bill Richardson" >In the meantime yes, the King is alive: "Long Live the King." >Alberto, I haven't changed my email address, so I don't know why you can't >"find" me. Because you would not reply to postings, Sire! _________________________________________________________________ Las mejores tiendas, los precios mas bajos, entregas en todo el mundo, YupiMSN Compras: http://latam.msn.com/compras/ From osmani_baullosa@yahoo.com Thu Jul 28 14:56:51 2005 Message-Id: <20050728185650.44693.qmail@web30506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Osmani Baullosa Subject: Dessert Botanical Garden (in USA) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Hi, I found this interesting link that some of you might already know... http://www.dbg.org/ Cheers, Osmani Baullosa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dells@voicenet.com Thu Jul 28 16:25:16 2005 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 97 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:25:13 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 97" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: .. Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER.. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Hans Joschko: SEED:(ONLY ABOUT TWO ORDERS OF EACH) (wc = wild collected) 1. Hermodactylus tuberosus (wc in May , Mt. Parnitha , Greece ) 2. Cyclamen balearicum wc Mallorca 3. Cyclamen cilicium wc Turkey 4. Cyclamen coum wc Nur Dag 5. Cyclamen coum wc Yayladagi 6. Cyclamen creticum wc Crete 7. Cyclamen cyprium wc Cyprus 8. Cyclamen hederifolium wc Peleponnes 9. Cyclamen hederifolium wc Samos 10.Cyclamen hederifolium wc Sicily 11.Cyclamen hederifolium v. confusum wc Crete 12. Cyclamen mirabile wc Turkey 13. Cyclamen persicum wc Rhodes 14. Cyclamen pseudibericum wc Turkey 15. Cyclamen purpurascens wc Alps 16. Cyclamen repandum 17. Cyclamen rhodium v. peleponnesiacum wc 18. Cyclamen rhodium v. vividum wc 19. Cyclamen rhodium wc Kos From Hamish Sloan: 20. Seed of Zephyranthes verecunda Thank you, Hans and Hamish !! Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX From rrgcjsg@bmts.com Fri Jul 29 08:43:11 2005 Message-Id: <012801c5943b$13c0c930$4790b7d8@Ronnalee> From: "Lee & Scott Gerow" Subject: Pacific BX 97 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:42:50 -0400 Good morning Dell, I would like to try "any" of these little lovelies for the first time so will leave the "choice" in your hands. I would like to start with about 4 please. Once again, don't waste the very rare ones on this newbie. ;-). Thank you Dell, Ronnalee, in Wiarton-23 degrees today and overcast 2. Cyclamen balearicum wc Mallorca > 3. Cyclamen cilicium wc Turkey > 4. Cyclamen coum wc Nur Dag > 5. Cyclamen coum wc Yayladagi > 6. Cyclamen creticum wc Crete > 7. Cyclamen cyprium wc Cyprus 12. Cyclamen mirabile wc Turkey > 13. Cyclamen persicum wc Rhodes > 14. Cyclamen pseudibericum wc Turkey > 15. Cyclamen purpurascens wc Alps > 16. Cyclamen repandum > 17. Cyclamen rhodium v. peleponnesiacum wc > 18. Cyclamen rhodium v. vividum wc > 19. Cyclamen rhodium wc Kos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: ; ; ; ; ; "Cathy Craig" ; ; Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 4:25 PM Subject: [pbs] Pacific BX 97 > Dear All, > > The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the > world, > to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please > email > me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 97" in the subject line. > Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify > quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in > case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, > first > served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included > with them, a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send > the > PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. > Some > of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the > Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE > PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future > offers such as this. Go to our website: .. > Or > contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or > bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: > Dell > Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on > the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. > > PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR > ORDER.. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! > >From Hans Joschko: > SEED:(ONLY ABOUT TWO ORDERS OF EACH) > (wc = wild collected) > > 1. Hermodactylus tuberosus (wc in May , Mt. Parnitha , Greece ) > 2. Cyclamen balearicum wc Mallorca > 3. Cyclamen cilicium wc Turkey > 4. Cyclamen coum wc Nur Dag > 5. Cyclamen coum wc Yayladagi > 6. Cyclamen creticum wc Crete > 7. Cyclamen cyprium wc Cyprus > 8. Cyclamen hederifolium wc Peleponnes > 9. Cyclamen hederifolium wc Samos > 10.Cyclamen hederifolium wc Sicily > 11.Cyclamen hederifolium v. confusum wc Crete > 12. Cyclamen mirabile wc Turkey > 13. Cyclamen persicum wc Rhodes > 14. Cyclamen pseudibericum wc Turkey > 15. Cyclamen purpurascens wc Alps > 16. Cyclamen repandum > 17. Cyclamen rhodium v. peleponnesiacum wc > 18. Cyclamen rhodium v. vividum wc > 19. Cyclamen rhodium wc Kos > >From Hamish Sloan: > > 20. Seed of Zephyranthes verecunda > > Thank you, Hans and Hamish !! > > Best wishes, > Dell > > Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Jul 29 09:44:29 2005 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Lycoris season - Part 2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:38:48 -0500 Dear all; Now that we have finally had a beak in the summer heat and rain, more Lycoris are popping up. L. longituba in a really shady spot is fully open and others in a more open site are sending up spikes. Rumors of a few L. squamigera in the neighborhood, but I have spotted them yet. Usually L. chinesis blooms with both of the above. This is a very slow time for bulbous bloom otherwise: Last of the tiger lilies, first of the L. formosanum; late Crinum 'Cecil Hudyshel', 'Super Ellen', 'Mrs. James Hendry' and some straggling x powellii. Awaiting cool weather blooms. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From c-mueller@tamu.edu Fri Jul 29 10:58:41 2005 Message-Id: From: "Cynthia Mueller" Subject: Lycoris season - Part 2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:58:00 -0500 >>> Jim Waddick wrote "Now that we have finally had a beak in the summer heat and rain, more Lycoris are popping up..." Jim....interesting to hear your description of Lycoris flowering season. I believe I remember from the past that you grow L. sprengeri. This week I've had something flowering, on a foot high stalk, six blooms, that is much like the one you sent to the wiki, but more in pink shades with blue only on the ends of the petals. Tried to pollinate this, but I'm wondering if any one knows if they are self-fertile? Cynthia W. Mueller College Station, Texas From jimmckenney@starpower.net Fri Jul 29 11:18:14 2005 Message-Id: <47qfdc$1t9to6@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Lycoris season - Part 2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:18:13 -0400 Cynthia, in my experience, Lycoris sprengeri sets viable seed. Is it self fertile? I can't say for sure, because I don't know if the stock I had was clonal or not. I suspect it was clonal because it came from a local nursery which propagated its own plants in a small way. I doubt that they were waiting six or seven years to get a blooming sized Lycoris from seed, so I suspect that they were dividing them and potting them up separately. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we have had the windows open for two days now and no air conditioning. From totototo@pacificcoast.net Fri Jul 29 11:22:06 2005 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Pot size Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:34:52 -0700 On 27 Jul 05 at 22:29, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > ...I only have so much room to shelter my bulbs from the rain > and those that get rained on many years don't need > supplemental watering so it would be difficult for me to > provide constant fertilization with each watering. Years and years ago, I heard a talk by a local commercial herb grower, Bob Chicken. (Long dead now.) He explained that he used a version of the John Innes mix for potting, instead of the peat-vermiculite or peat-perlite soilless mixes, notably the famous UC mix. His reasoning: the soilless mixes contain no clay fraction. Hence they do not retain nutrients very well - clay adsorbs nutrients like crazy. (N.B. adsorb, not absorb.) Soilless mixes were devised for the sunny California climate and demand regular liquid feeding. In the dark, dank northwest winters, things are already wet enough and if you give plant the regular liquid feeds UC mix demands, they'll stay way too wet. You need a mix that retains nutrients instead of letting them leach away, a mix that needn't be soggy from continuous liquid feeding. Ever since then, I've used a John-Innes type potting mix. Plants potted in it still need protection from the winter rains, but at least they don't need supplemental liquid feeding. > I've now been growing Tecophilaea for a number of years and > get a few blooms out of them, but nothing very spectacular so > obviously I haven't figured out what they need... > Anyone grow Tecophilaea with cool summers and mild wet winters > have any suggestions for me? Alberto told me in 1993 in San Mateo that tecophilaea prefers a circum-neutral soil and a *cool* dry summer rest, not a warm one like tulips want. IOW, when the foliage dies down, put them under cover in the *shade*. Is this still your recommendation, Alberto? Another suggestion derived from a web site you might be able to unearth again: a tecophilaea grower in the LA area swears by decomposed granite as a soil mix ingredient for tecophilaeas. His opinion is that the potassium it slowly releases is beneficial. These days, my own t's go into a 50-50 combination of my usual mix plus fine granite sand ("canary grit"). So far, so good. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From janemcgary@earthlink.net Fri Jul 29 11:46:06 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050729084259.010fb440@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Pot size Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:45:59 -0700 Rodger wrote,Another suggestion derived from a web site you might be able >to unearth again: a tecophilaea grower in the LA area swears by >decomposed granite as a soil mix ingredient for tecophilaeas. >His opinion is that the potassium it slowly releases is >beneficial. These days, my own t's go into a 50-50 combination >of my usual mix plus fine granite sand ("canary grit"). So far, >so good. Decomposed granite (the soil at my brother's place in the coastal hills of the Monterey Peninsula) has a great deal of fines in it; it sets up like concrete when dry, but immediately becomes friable when moist (it's famous for mudslides -- one went through his neighbor's living room). I'm sure there are plenty of available nutrients in it, and many native bulbs grow in it. This is why I like using "pit run" unwashed sand (mostly basaltic, here) and unwashed pumice -- I think the fines make the nutrients more available. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From osmani_baullosa@yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 13:10:07 2005 Message-Id: <20050729171006.76793.qmail@web30511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Osmani Baullosa Subject: new pictures from the Andes Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Hello Hans, About your pictures uploaded to Mystery Bulbs section: I guess the reddish (orange?) one, in the first two pictures, is an Amaryllid also found in Peruvian Andes: Crocopsis fulgens I thinks it's the same plant named as Zephyranthes pseudocolchicum, Stenomesson humile, Stenosmesson acaule, Clitanthes humilis, etc... About the other two, I just can't imagine what they are. Andes mountains are full of surprises...:-) Cheers, Osmani Baullosa uj.joschko@freenet.de> wrote: Hello, for all with interest in South American bulb-plant : On the Mystery Bulbs are some new pictures of bulb plants from the Andes. These pictures has I again from my friends received those there traveled. I know, the pictures are not perfect all, but one can win an impression like these plants there to grow - better a bad picture than no picture. Only few of us will see opportunity to have these plants locally to . If someone an idea have around which plants it act here I about an information would in such a way be pleased. To the pictures : Cara - Coch , Sama , Bolivia - these are from Bolivia Candado , Molinos, Caspala , St. Ana are from Argentina All the pictures was made in the months October - November If you are interested , please look http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/MysteryBulbs Also I would say a big "Thank You" to Susan for all her help and work with my pictures. Many greetings Hans _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Jul 29 14:04:29 2005 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Lycoris season - Part 2 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:08:51 -0500 >Jim....interesting to hear your description of Lycoris flowering >season. I believe I remember from the past that you grow L. >sprengeri. This week I've had something flowering, on a foot high >stalk, six blooms, that is much like the one you sent to the wiki, >but more in pink shades with blue only on the ends of the petals. >Tried to pollinate this, but I'm wondering if any one knows if they >are self-fertile? Dear Cynthia; 99% likely they are self fertile. Isolated flowers set seed readily, but haven't seen seedlings bloom to confirm. The species is fairly variable with some showing more pink/less blue and others vice/versa. I have seen some totally electric blue and they are fantastic. Glowing. (Re: my note about propagation techniques). Over night dozens of longituba are up and a few dozen squamigera just at the surface, but no sprengeri yet. Usually a bit behind and expect others soon in the main season. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From marque219@yahoo.com Fri Jul 29 14:17:29 2005 Message-Id: <20050729181728.17614.qmail@web60015.mail.yahoo.com> From: Mark Wilcox Subject: Hippeastrum X johnsonii in New Orleans Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Dear All, In April I had to go to New Orleans for a wedding and got to see Hippeastrum X johnsonii in full bloom all over the city and outlying areas. The locals call it Saint Joseph lily. They have the kind of climate where they can grow Hippeastrum in the ground without special protection. However, I found that their idea of St. Joseph lily had 3 variations. One was the H. X johnsonii as it's sold commerically, a red flower with a single thin white stripe on each tepal. There was much less of this kind in evidence than of the others. Another variation had completely red petals, while the third had much wider white stripes that shaded to green where the tepals come together. Are these all different forms of H. X johnsonii? Are the other 2 mistakenly called St. Joseph lily by the locals, while actually different hybrids? I'm curious to know if anyone in the group knows and will share with us how to identify the H. X johnsonii properly. Mark Wilcox Washington, DC From dkramb@badbear.com Fri Jul 29 14:31:44 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20050729142138.01a2aec0@pop.bizland.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: off-topic, Monarda mystery Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:31:46 -0400 Earlier this spring I dug up some Monarda from some woods that were going under the bulldozer here in Cincinnati. It has now bloomed and for the life of me I can't identify it. Is there another genus similar to Monarda? My plant has 3 tiers of small white flowers. Each tier is only about 3cm across. It is sortof like M. punctata but but without those triangular bracts that stick out. I've searched the web and can't find a matching photo. Anyone got any pointers? Dennis in Cincinnati (who loves this group to death but knows very little about the plants normally discussed here) :-) From dells@voicenet.com Fri Jul 29 15:12:05 2005 Message-Id: <20050729191204.EBD104C00B@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific BX 97 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:12:04 -0400 I have received your order. Best wishes, Dell From dells@voicenet.com Fri Jul 29 15:31:38 2005 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 97 CLOSED Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:30:40 -0400 Everything has been claimed twice over. Packages should go out after the weekend. Enjoy, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From c-mueller@tamu.edu Fri Jul 29 15:35:29 2005 Message-Id: From: "Cynthia Mueller" Subject: Hippeastrum X johnsonii in New Orleans Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:35:02 -0500 Mark recently wrote, "In April I had to go to New Orleans for a wedding and got to see Hippeastrum X johnsonii in full bloom all over the city.... However, I found that their idea of St. Joseph lily had 3 variations. One was the H. X johnsonii as it's sold commerically, a red flower with a single thin white stripe on each tepal. There was much less of this kind in evidence than of the others. Another variation had completely red petals, while the third had much wider white stripes that shaded to green where the tepals come together." Mark: I believe the variation that had almost completely red petals was probably "Amaryllis" or Hippeastrum Ackermanii, another old favorite hybrid. They are also found in Central Texas. There's a nice image of it on the Plant Delights website, where Tony says they are a hybrid between H. aulicum and H. x johnsonii. It's hard to say anything definitive about the variant with broader stripes without a picture. Cynthia Mueller College Station, TX From hornig@usadatanet.net Fri Jul 29 16:59:58 2005 Message-Id: <001101c5947d$0c468c20$660cda42@ellensoffice> From: "Ellen Hornig" Subject: off-topic, Monarda mystery Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:35:23 -0400 Dennis - sounds like it might be a blephilia (B. hirsuta or B. ciliata) - Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Kramb" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 2:31 PM Subject: [pbs] off-topic, Monarda mystery > Earlier this spring I dug up some Monarda from some woods that were going > under the bulldozer here in Cincinnati. It has now bloomed and for the > life of me I can't identify it. Is there another genus similar to Monarda? > > My plant has 3 tiers of small white flowers. Each tier is only about 3cm > across. It is sortof like M. punctata but but without those triangular > bracts that stick out. I've searched the web and can't find a matching > photo. Anyone got any pointers? > > Dennis in Cincinnati (who loves this group to death but knows very little > about the plants normally discussed here) :-) > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From bonaventure@optonline.net Fri Jul 29 16:41:10 2005 Message-Id: From: bonaventure@optonline.net Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:41:05 -0400 I grow mine in half-shade in the back yard over woodland ephemerals and summer moisure-sensitive plants. The Trilliums and Arisaemas there wither up and go dormant, triphyllums and summer moisture sensitive ones such as sikokianum, engleri, elephas, and other Himalayan monsoon belt ones. The area gets no extra water, and while the daffodil border in my sunny well watered front yard is just finishing dying down and being replaced by giant tropical foliage, the dry border in the very back of my back yard has been looking tattered (except for the final row or Oriental lilies) until recently starting to be covered by the B. grandis. Today I checked and the Begonia has rapidly nearly reached full size leaves on foot tall plants. They will get taller. The nice thing also is the wilting Asarums are now more sheltered and are reviving. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:18:31 -0400 From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: c To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Message-ID: <47qfdc$1stq8i@smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bonaventure Magreys wrote: "Yes, the hardy begonias are great, but leave bare ground from the end of bulb season until mid-July when they start coming up for me here in central New Jersey." By mid-July here in zone 7 Maryland, Begonia grandis is already eighteen inched to two feet high. It begins to emerge while daffodil foliage is still greenish, so in this climate it compliments some bulbs ideally. It does take awhile for them to provide total cover and become effective weed suppressors, but in the meantime nothing seems to perturb them. It's interesting to me that it seems to behave so differently only a few hundred miles north of here. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I recall reading that the sap of begonia leaves was once used to burn decorative designs into the skin of goldfish. From daffodil@xnet.co.nz Fri Jul 29 21:51:38 2005 Message-Id: <008401c594a9$365fa970$5d01a8c0@Dads> From: "Bill Dijk" Subject: Pot size and Tecophilaea in flower. Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:51:05 +1200 Dear All, When the subject turns to growing and repotting Tecophilaea's successfully, or any other bulbs for that matter, I like many, have my own growing style, and recommendations. As John Lonsdale and Mary Sue mentioned there are no hard or fast rules for growing bulbs: climate conditions, treatment required, feeding, watering, potting mixture, size of pot or container, they all have a bearing towards the final analyses: failure or success, It all boils down to a sensible well-balanced approach, the knowledge and growing requirements to interpret its needs and put it into practise. Personally I would not underpot or overcrowd the seedlings or mature bulbs when repotting or planting in containers. In our sheltered, at times high humidity climate, overcrowded planting could lead to mould, diseases, or weak drawn up plants, not to mention less increase in size, and not flowering as a consequent. Like many growers, I usually leave the young seedlings the first two seasons in the same pot or container and repot most of the mature bulbs every season for best results and quality bulbs. Our potting mixture is a simple basic 50% composted bark and 50% horticultural pumice and coarse sand, with a well balanced slow release bulb fertilizer and trace elements, that is low in nitrogen. The percentages of the media could vary depending on what each plant needs with the level of low or high ph. Like Jane, I have access to cheap, large quantities of pumice, which in mho makes all the difference in performance, well aerated and perfect drainage. Anyway, its that time of the season once more, to get me all excited, when one of my favourite treasures the Tecophilaea's start flowering again. I will post another couple of close-up images on the wiki for everyone to have a look at and enjoy. I wish I could have been more helpful with Mary Sue's Tecophilaea, but as you mentioned before, what works for one person, does not necessarily work for someone else. My apologies for the long winded rambling on. Best wishes, Bill Dijk +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ For the benefit of the new PBS members, or anyone interested, I will repeat and reintroduce a previous posting of a article I wrote about the beauty and cultivation of this charming little treasure. (my pet subject) Dear Bulbophiles, Without doubt, the most sought after of all the smaller (alpine) flowering bulbs/corms: the fabulous "Chilean blue crocus" Its supreme beauty and rarity makes it a must for in every connoisseur's collection I am of course talking about the 3 winter-flowering Tecophilaea cyanocrocus species and varieties TECOPHILAEA cyanocrocus. Another cold climate hardy bulb for the keen grower and collector This species is now believed to be critically endangered in the wild, mainly because of over-collecting and intensive grazing by cattle and sheep to the point of becoming extinct. Fortunately they are not difficult to grow, and although rare in cultivation, and given the right environment, will not be lost from the planet. They are usually grown in an alpine house or cold glasshouse. Because they are so unique and beautiful, these plants justify special attention and treatment. It starts growth early in the season, but appears to be hardy in all except very exposed areas. and need very good drainage. Young growth can be scorched with severe frost, but will soon harden. Plant in well drained fertile potting mix in full sun 5cm. deep (2inch.) Bulbs should remain cool until growth appears from mid to late winter. Water only when in growth, but be careful not to over-water in warm humid condition. When flowering is finished, gradually reduce water to allow bulbs to go dormant and dry in summer. In view of its small size and rarity T. cyanocrocus sp.are best cultivated in a container or some other "protected" situation where it can thrive and receive the special attention it deserves. As an Alpine house-plant it can more easily be grown and maintained, and a pot of it is always treasured by keen collectors. Bulbs multiply slowly; the best method of increase is to propagate from fresh seed, sown in autumn in a gritty seed mix. Seed will develop more readily when hand pollinated, which required a deft, delicate touch with a very fine camel-hair brush, if it's going to be successful. Sow seeds in a well-drained seed-medium, with plenty of course sand and or pumice for good drainage (May-July) Seedlings will reach flowering size, when grown on for another 3-4 years. Tecophilaea cyanocrocus: one, often two flowers are produced per stem, of intense vivid gentian blue with a white throat. Flowers 2 inches across when fully open. T.cyanocrocus var.leichtlinii: the same beautiful plant with 2 inch. Sky-blue flowers and large white centres. T.cyanocrocus var.violaea: another member of this attractive but rare species, the bright violet blue colour of this form has great charm. Tecophilaea's are always much admired when flowering en masse, a sight never to be forgotten. I think Mary Sue, Lee Poulsen and Diane Whitehead, have already covered the germination of the Tecophilaea cyanocrocus seed quite adequate. Like Mary Sue, Lee Poulsen, and John Lonsdale I sow my fresh seed in April-May (Southern Hemisphere) in deep seed trays, in a well-draining sterile seed mix, topped off with ½ inch of finer mix or river sand. The seed normally germinate in 6-8 weeks if everything goes according to schedule. During that time I pay particular attention to watering, not to wet, and always start them in semi-shaded, covered open benches, (Mary Sue knows what I am talking about) in the coolest part of the nursery, to stop them damping off. As soon as the seeds are up, I usually take them outside to harden off and grow them on, and let nature do the rest. I will attach a picture of successful germinated Tecophilaea seedlings after 3 months, from last season's endeavour on the wiki, for everyone to have a look at. > I found the thread about pot size very interesting and certainly agree > with > John Lonsdale that there isn't a right way to grow bulbs. We all have > slightly to very different conditions that will make what works for one > person not work for someone else. From buj.joschko@freenet.de Sat Jul 30 05:29:28 2005 Message-Id: From: "Hans und Babs Joschko" Subject: new pictures from the Andes Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:29:40 +0200 Hello Osmani , Thank you for your interest for my pictures . I agree with you that this could be Crocopsis fulgens . I believe that the pictures shows : Cara. Coch. = Crocopsis Candado = Crocopsis C. Sama = Zeph. / Habr. P. Molinos Haylockia S.A. Caspala = Zeph. / Habr. S.Ana = Haylockia Spec. Bolivia = Zeph./ Habr. Many greetings to Chile Hans From msittner@mcn.org Sat Jul 30 10:45:00 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050730070134.02bccbc0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Tecophilaea/plant mixes/Amaryllis belladonna Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:43:58 -0700 Hi, Bill's descriptions of Tecophilaea and all the pictures on the wiki just make me frustrated I can't do better with them. I haven't found them difficult to grow from seed. Mine come up every year. I just don't get many flowers. Cool dry summers they have been getting so maybe I should put them in the greenhouse to see if they would like it warmer? Lee Poulsen can get his to flower and it is much dryer where he lives in Southern California than it is here, but it is also warmer in summer, especially at night. For instance I can grow hibiscus and Gloriosa in my greenhouse in summer and get both to flower nicely, but if I put them outside even on my deck which is probably the warmest part of my garden in summer they aren't happy at all. Anyone know what nighttime temperatures would be when they are dormant where they are/were found in nature? I've tried growing them exposed to the rain and when that didn't work, moved them to my structure which is covered and open on the sides and water them by hand. I suppose I've had a bit more luck with the latter as in a few days of bloom from selected bulbs. Many years ago I had my husband buy me some decomposed granite after everyone raved about it. He got the kind with fines. I think it weighed more than sand so using it made the pots very heavy and it kind of clumped together so it didn't seem to me that there would be much air in the mix at all. I didn't have any improved results in the cases I used it that I could tell and some things looked worse. I suppose not all decomposed granite is the same. So I never got more. In California Orchard Supply has a mix I like and then I add pumice and coarse sand to that and some coir. I recall one year our native plant society ordered soil for us all to use who were growing plants for the plant sale. It was a disaster for me with my sixty inches of rain as it just got too wet and didn't dry out. It was fine for some of the others who got much less rain. Last year I heard a talk from a man who grows carnivorous plants and he said coir was death to his plants because of the high salt content. He almost lost everything before he realized and repotted quickly. A number of people on this list are very keen about it. Has anyone found it was not a good idea for bulbs? One year I used mushroom compost in my mix when I ran out of other things and that was a disaster. And I haven't been happy with mixes containing some of the baked clay products that others have liked so much. So after a lot of experimenting like Bill I have an idea of what works for me and modify it a bit for certain plants and try to concentrate on the plants I grow that flower happily in what I can provide them. I'm not quite ready to give up on Tecophilaea yet however. Speaking of giving up I had a clump of Amaryllis belladonna that bloomed for many years and then stopped for about three or four. People on this list suggested I needed to add soil since the bulbs were pushing out of the ground (not pulling themselves down) and also suggested more light. I added soil and we cut down a lot of the pine trees since they were coming to the time in their lives they could come down in storms. Still no blooms. So this spring I told them if they didn't bloom in the fall they were coming out. You guessed it. The spikes are appearing now. The bulbs have pushed out of the soil I added, but there is more light in that area of the garden. There also was a lot more late rain this year which could be the difference. It will be interesting to see if others I have planted in the garden bloom well this year. It is very early for me to have blooms. They will probably bloom this year and then resume their no bloom cycle now that they have their reprieve. Mary Sue From dkramb@badbear.com Sat Jul 30 11:30:05 2005 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20050730112849.01a82040@pop.bizland.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: off-topic, Monarda mystery Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:30:06 -0400 At 04:35 PM 7/29/2005, you wrote: >Dennis - sounds like it might be a blephilia (B. hirsuta or B. ciliata) - > >Ellen Hornig >Seneca Hill Perennials That's it! You solved my mystery. :-) The flowers on mine are white, whereas most of the photos I found on the internet were pink, but otherwise it's a perfect match. Thank you so much! Dennis in Cincinnati From Blee811@aol.com Sat Jul 30 12:12:46 2005 Message-Id: From: Blee811@aol.com Subject: Mushroom compost Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:12:39 EDT Mary Sue referred to using mushroom compost one year with disastrous results. I used to build whole beds with it, mixing it with our native clay soil. It added wondrous tilth. About three years after the first bed, every daffodil planted in it was gone. Another year, the daffodils didn't even come up the first spring in a new bed with mushroom compost. The horticulture head at our huge Spring Grove Cemetery here in Cincinnati told me that when they add soil amendments, they always send samples to a lab for analysis first. He had a batch of mushroom compost that came back with the analysis that it was so full of salts it would not support plant life. Of course I no longer use mushroom compost. Bill Lee From amburrell@ag.tamu.edu Sat Jul 30 13:21:42 2005 Message-Id: From: "Millie Burrell" Subject: Mushroom compost Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:20:59 -0500 I have a friend who was doing his Master's thesis on mycorrhizal associations under various soil conditions. One of the conditions was to be in an organic soil--which included mushroom compost as the compost element. When he tested the soil, not only were the salts extremely high, the pH was around 10-11. That kind of pH makes most nutrients unavailable for plant uptake. While it may be cheap and in large supply, I have to agree with Mary Sue and Bill, especially after seeing my friend's data. Cheers, Millie Millie Burrell Graduate Student Department of Biology Texas A&M University Norman Borlaug Center MS 2123 College Station, TX 77843-2123 (979) 845-2683 millieb@tamu.edu >>> Blee811@aol.com 07/30/05 11:12 AM >>> Mary Sue referred to using mushroom compost one year with disastrous results. I used to build whole beds with it, mixing it with our native clay soil. It added wondrous tilth. About three years after the first bed, every daffodil planted in it was gone. Another year, the daffodils didn't even come up the first spring in a new bed with mushroom compost. The horticulture head at our huge Spring Grove Cemetery here in Cincinnati told me that when they add soil amendments, they always send samples to a lab for analysis first. He had a batch of mushroom compost that came back with the analysis that it was so full of salts it would not support plant life. Of course I no longer use mushroom compost. Bill Lee _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sat Jul 30 13:52:14 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050730104809.010a70f8@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Tecophilaea/plant mixes/Amaryllis belladonna Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:52:10 -0700 Mary Sue wrote asking about what kind of nighttime temperatures would be suitable to help Tecophilaea cyanocrocus to flower. Mine have flowered well in the bulb frames for many years now. I just repotted them and will have some on my surplus list. While dormant, they are probably fairly cool down in the soil (the pots and plunged to the rim in sand), and the nights here are almost always in the mid-50s F in summer. I think in nature (though it's hard to know from the single documented population that survives), the area where it grows has similarly cool nights. I've stayed in a village in the area and had to use a thick blanket even in midsummer. One think that I believe benefits these plants is ample water in their early growing season. They are apparently snowmelt lovers in nature. Some of mine did not flower as well or set as much seed this year as they usually do, although the bulbs appear healthy. I think this was because I was gone in January when we had a long dry spell, when I would have watered them if I'd been here. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From msittner@mcn.org Sat Jul 30 14:12:07 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050730110615.02bed690@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Tecophilaea/plant mixes/Amaryllis belladonna Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:11:05 -0700 Dear Jane, Thanks for that suggestion about extra water in early growth for Tecophilaeas. I see Ian Young is suggesting not letting them get too dry in dormancy when others have said to keep them dry. They are corms and don't have perennial roots, but maybe yours in the plunge are surrounded by soil that still has some moisture in it when my soil be late fall when they reappear has been completely dry for a long time. Bill (Dijk) and Lee, during dormancy do you ever water your pots? I assume John Lonsdale would get some moisture from rain for his. Mary Sue From arnold@nj.rr.com Sat Jul 30 14:45:04 2005 Message-Id: <42EBCAAD.7000904@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: lilium rosthornii Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:45:01 -0400 A chinese lily with close resemblance to Lilium henryii http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Lilium Arnold New Jersey From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Sat Jul 30 15:32:31 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050730212956.01e5a350@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Hippeastrum seeds Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:32:12 +0200 At 13:45 26-07-2005, Alberto Grossi wrote: >Dear All, >no one answered me how to sow the seeds of H. reticulatum. May anyone help me before I lose all seeds? >Thank you >Alberto >Italy On this subject, too, there are varying opinions. My friend in Ireland sows her H. on compost and covers them lightly. She sprays and covers them with plastic wrap until they sprout. She simply covers the compost with seeds and says it doesn't bother them to touch at all. This is ordinary "amaryllis" seeds. Just been in the Midlands in England for some days visiting friend. Carol From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Sat Jul 30 15:38:21 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050730213530.01ea68c0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Different composts Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:38:13 +0200 I think you professionals probably buy compost and you report that it has a tendency to become dust and therefore plants can get waterlogged. We amateurs use our own homemade compost which definitely has a good open structure and never turns to dust. If it were a bad material, I would have given it up after one trial. There is wood in it, undigested. Half-digested plant rests. Completely digested stuff. It is not a standarized product. Carol From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Sat Jul 30 15:48:14 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050730214605.01eac008@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: ground cover for summer dormant bulbs Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:47:58 +0200 I use vinca minor which works well in a temperate climate. It may cover too well, but my bulbs grow through it very well. It spreads fast and in time fills up to an inch or two of pretty leaves and blue-violet flowers. Here all year round despite frost. Carol From hamish.sloan@virgin.net Sat Jul 30 16:15:51 2005 Message-Id: <01C5954B.74408B40.hamish.sloan@virgin.net> From: Hamish Sloan Subject: plant mixes/Amaryllis belladonna Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:09:54 +0100 -----Original Message----- From: Mary Sue Ittner "Many years ago I had my husband buy me some decomposed granite after everyone raved about it. He got the kind with fines. I think it weighed more than sand so using it made the pots very heavy and it kind of clumped together so it didn't seem to me that there would be much air in the mix at all." The clumping suggests that there is some surface active agent present in the granite that makes it "sticky". There are similar agents in any clay-based loam that have the effect of giving lumps when it gets wet that dry out with difficulty and when it is dry, wetting the soil/compost/whatever is difficult. It reminds me of the story about the planning for the first canals in the UK. There were fears that widespread flooding would occur. Someone had to demonstrate to the assembled members of Parliament that while dry clay allows water to pass unhindered, "puddled clay" would hold water and "puddling" was the way to line the canals so that there would be little or no water seepage. Dry peat is also difficult to wet, but once it is wet, no problem. As I have a clay-based loam, I have given up on adding grit for similar reasons. When compaction occurs, the clay particles sticking to the grit block any air flow by filling possible pores. Smaller amount of loam? - it just goes down to the bottom of the container, leaving the upper layer(s) nicely porous and a nice example of Alberto's poor drainage. I remember two examples of bulbs given to me that were doing badly for just this sludgy bottom problem - an ammocharis coranica and a crinum of species unknown. What is needed is porosity. This is why the baked clay granules idea has been tried. Perlite is another possibility. Some of you are fortunate to have access to pumice supplies. Organic agents for porosity often used, hence peat (though some environmental cost here), leafmold (I've now got into a routine to produce enough of my own leafmold for pot work so that I don't use peat), coir (There is a cost factor here. I have been able to shred two old coir doormats which produced as much coir as a ?5 - about $10 - block of coir at the local garden centres. The cost of the replacement doormats was less than the coir block! Someone is making big profits here on the back of people's environmental concerns. In addition, the coir block is dusty - too fine; my shredding gave fibres in the range half-an-inch to two inches.) "Last year I heard a talk from a man who grows carnivorous plants and he said coir was death to his plants because of the high salt content. ... One year I used mushroom compost in my mix when I ran out of other things and that was a disaster. And I haven't been happy with mixes containing some of the baked clay products that others have liked so much." Salts present can be another problem. I know nothing of salts in coir. The compost used for mushroom growing beds are usually covered in a layer of ground chalk or limestone - you will need a fairly acid soil to neutralise that lot! Mary Sue's comment suggests something more than just lime. Also, the mushroom compost will be treated to kill off the fungus gnats - nothing like a few wormy holes to put you off mushrooms - and various other bugs in the precursor horse manure often used to make the compost. I don't know what all these pest killers are, probably mainly organic compounds, but their residues in quantity probably don't do much good. Spreading the stuff around the garden gives opportunity for the weather to disperse them, an action much more restricted in pots. I have heard Perlite has high fluoride content but I've not noticed any deleterious effects using it at up to three sevenths parts (about 42%) in a mix otherwise largely leafmold. The usual recommendation for Perlite is not more than 20 or 25% volume. Peat is acid and we have got used to handling that. "Speaking of giving up I had a clump of Amaryllis belladonna that bloomed for many years and then stopped for about three or four." Amaryllis commonly grow in coastal areas, often not far above sea level. The water table must be close up to the bulbs and it must surely be sea-salty? The best display of Amaryllis belladonna that I have seen in the UK was on the southern coast of Cornwall - southerly aspect, slightly raised bed in front of the garden wall of a cottage, across the road was the beach, only a couple of feet above sea level. There were over 150 scapes spread along on the road and seaward side of the wall, a distance of about 20 yards. Yes, I counted them!! Breath-taking. Perhaps, Mary Sue, your bulbs are pining for some sea salt? Just a little, perhaps? Regards Hamish From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Sat Jul 30 18:04:52 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Tecophilaea/plant mixes, etc. Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:04:51 +0000 Dear all: Please note that we are all speaking of Tecophilaea cyanocrocus, the alpine species. Rodger, Jane and Mary Sue’s comments are self explanatory. There is a second species, the coastal T. violiflora that demand warm conditions much like a Cape bulb, but incomparably less attractive than cyanocrocus. As for mushroom compost it is normally made of a mix of FRESH horse manure and urine with chopped wheat straw (although may be local substitutes for these ingredients) corrected for a high pH with substantial quantities of lime. Here you have the salts (urine), the high pH (lime) and the deadly bacteriae (manure). Since the dawn of bulb growing time we have been warned to avoid using manure for bulbs, and only very old manure in cold climates is not fulminant to them. Fines are the reason for disaster in mixes, wether in perlite, granite, sands, gravel, pumice, you name it. Best results are obtained when mixes are sieved to exclude them. Plant roots have the chemical properties to obtain nutrients from ingredients (like granite) that may contain them and which ingredients could eventually assume a soluble form. And Hamish, now I am convinced that most people in this forum does not read all the postings, hence the endless repetition of threads and of questions that were made perhaps the previous week. This I mention in relation to the fact that not long ago I explained that the solution to drainage problems lies in making good sized drainage holes in the containers’ sides close to the bottom. Now that Rodger moved his T. cyanocrocus to an 8 litre container they will explode into growth but unless he makes better drainage holes, the drainage will be slower and the core of the mix will remain wetter for long. In other words, the bigger the containers the better the results but drainge must be gradually more substantial as the pot size grow bigger. Nothing beats growing in the soil like John Lonsdale does but there are many cases in which we just can not do it and have to make do with containers, in which case the bonsai effect can not be overlooked. As for Amaryllis belladonna it is normal that the upper half of the bulb protrudes as in so many S. African amaryllids, Mary Sue. Being exposed they get the good baking necessary to produce the flower buds. If covered they will stay cooler than desirable. And out of smoke perception if fire is produced. All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Sat Jul 30 19:53:49 2005 Message-Id: <003101c59561$ebc74a80$e7def7a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: plant mixes/Amaryllis belladonna Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:53:43 -0700 > From: Mary Sue Ittner > > "Many years ago I had my husband buy me some decomposed granite after > everyone raved about it. He got the kind with fines. I think it weighed > more than sand so using it made the pots very heavy and it kind of clumped > together so it didn't seem to me that there would be much air in the mix at > all." The decomposed granite that is sold by landscape materials suppliers is intended for paths and has a high content of clay. It is machine compacted, and the clay makes it bind together and form a hard surface. It isn't intended for horticultural use. Diana From susanann@sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 30 23:19:54 2005 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Amaryllis belladonna Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:12:30 -0700 **Aha! something is blooming that I actually planted and know what it is. My pink Amaryllis belladonna is blooming. I have others planted all over and they aren't showing a single spike. I also have two pots of Cypella aquatilis which have been blooming for quite some time. Other bulbs are sitting and waiting to see if I walk by and give them the kiss of death. Learning is a slow process for old people. :-) At 7:43 AM -0700 7/30/05, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: >this spring I told them if they didn't bloom in the fall they were coming >out. You guessed it. The spikes are appearing now. The bulbs have pushed >out of the soil I added, but there is more light in that area of the >garden. There also was a lot more late rain this year which could be the >difference. It will be interesting to see if others I have planted in the >garden bloom well this year. It is very early for me to have blooms. They >will probably bloom this year and then resume their no bloom cycle now that >they have their reprieve. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2005 From john@johnlonsdale.net Sun Jul 31 07:50:22 2005 Message-Id: <20050731115022.2E47C4C005@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "John Lonsdale" Subject: Tecophilea/plant mixes Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:50:21 -0400 My Tecophilea are all pot grown in the greenhouse, they are not hardy outdoors, unfortunately. So no rain on them. They get the same regimen as all my other winter growing bulbs and are therefore dry in summer. I should clarify that - water is withheld from mid-June onwards, after the foliage is clearly defunct, and no further water is given until September. They get repotted in late July or early August into just damp compost, not through choice, that's the way it comes out of the bag. I don't ever deliberately keep summer dormant bulbs damp during dormancy. In our climate it is a sure recipe for rot. Those that have been suggested to want some moisture during dormancy, like Tecophilea and the S. American Nothoscordum/Ipheion complex, do very well drying out naturally out of the full blast of the sun. Regarding watering Tecophilea, I water first in September then keep the pots moist until growth starts in earnest, at which point they will take plenty of moisture. This is usually sometime in late January. They want a lot in the spring when they are in active growth and are quick to show when they need more. The leaf color changes and they wilt a little. The time I have lost some is when I have watered too much, too early. Flowering ability seems to be just dependent upon corm size in my hands. Best, J. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From marque219@verizon.net Sun Jul 31 08:23:27 2005 Message-Id: <2808786.1122812604105.JavaMail.root@vms075.mailsrvcs.net> From: Mark Wilcox Subject: Hippeastrum X johnsonii in New Orleans Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:23:24 -0500 (CDT) Hi Cynthia, Having looked at the image on Plant Delights, I can tell you that the ones I saw were simply red, no white in them at all. I'll try to get pictures of both the plain red and the broad stripe plants up on the wiki soon. Mark >Mark: I believe the variation that had almost completely red petals was probably "Amaryllis" or Hippeastrum Ackermanii, another old favorite hybrid. They are also found in Central Texas. There's a nice image of it on the Plant Delights website, where Tony says they are a hybrid between H. aulicum and H. x johnsonii. It's hard to say anything definitive about the variant with broader stripes without a picture. From Jamievande@freenet.de Sun Jul 31 13:40:45 2005 Message-Id: <001401c595f7$556d62e0$6502a8c0@Jamie2> From: "Jamie" Subject: Scilla adlanii Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:43:16 +0200 Does anyone know of this plant, Scilla adlanii? (sp.) I have a small pot of it and cannot find any info. It is apparently tender. Any info would be appreciated. My plant has striated leaves of dark green and red-purple, stands about 10cm (4") high, is Spring blooming and has violet-purple flowers. Jamie V. Cologne From boutin@goldrush.com Sun Jul 31 14:34:51 2005 Message-Id: <004001c595fe$97c5ed90$863d7143@homecomputer> From: "boutin" Subject: Scilla adlanii Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:35:13 -0700 Jamie, Scilla adlamii of Baker was put into an extremely variable Ledebouria cooperi by Jessop in his treatment of Ledebouria. Several of the Scilla species lumped by Jessop into L. cooperi are considered by Venter in his unpublished monograph as separate Ledebouria species, for example L. galpinii, L. sandersonii, L. rupestris, and a few more. While still considered as L. cooperi , Scilla adlamii is not typical of that species, so in my opinion should be considered a form of L. cooperi. There appears to be at least two forms of S. adlamii in cultivation, one with broader leaves and darker colored flowers. Fred Tuolumne, California ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:43 AM Subject: [pbs] Scilla adlanii > Does anyone know of this plant, Scilla adlanii? (sp.) I have a small pot of it and cannot find any info. It is apparently tender. Any info would be appreciated. My plant has striated leaves of dark green and red-purple, stands about 10cm (4") high, is Spring blooming and has violet-purple flowers. > > Jamie V. > Cologne > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sun Jul 31 15:14:41 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050731120733.011527e8@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Tecophilea/plant mixes Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:14:29 -0700 Like John Lonsdale, I do not water Tecophilaea cyanocrocus in summer, when it's dormant. Mine are in the driest of my five ranges of frames. I just repotted them, and noticed that it seems to take seedlings about 4 years to reach flowering size here. This year, after a warm winter, many of the corms made good-sized offsets. They make few but large offsets. After growing them in both the bulb frame and in my frost-free solarium, or plant room, I learned that the ones in the frame, which experience much colder temperatures, invariably flower better. Indeed, I get generally better results with marginally hardy bulbs in the frames. Many are surprisingly resistant to frost as long as they're not very wet. I do lost a few things with this kind of experimentation, but the increased vigor and flowering of the ones that succeed makes up for it, I think. John mentioned that he repotted bulbs into slightly moist compost not because he thought it was a good idea, but because the purchased compost (in the British sense, not the American) comes that way. Some summers I'm forced to do the same because the sand pile and the forest topsoil I use are still moist from late rains. I don't like it either; however, one year when the mix was really damp, I noticed that the Calochortus repotted into it were unusually robust the following season. Jane McGary NOrthwestern Oregon, USA From jorna@mobilixnet.dk Sun Jul 31 16:18:47 2005 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.0.20050731221534.01e581f0@mail.mobilixnet.dk> From: Carol Jensen Subject: Tecophilaea/plant mixes/Amaryllis belladonna Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:18:32 +0200 At 16:43 30-07-2005, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: >Hi, > >Bill's descriptions of Tecophilaea and all the pictures on the wiki just >make me frustrated I can't do better with them. >Mary Sue Sometimes, what one buys, such as granite or compost, is actually contaminated with industrial byproducts. I do realize that if you are in the gardener business, you may feel that it is necessary to buy what you can get, but organic gardeners would never do it (and that is what I am.) Won't say this again, since I know what it sounds like, a non-smoker trying to get a smoker to give up those lovely cigarettes! Carol From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jul 31 17:11:31 2005 Message-Id: <42ED3E82.3080506@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: pots Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:11:30 -0400 Alberto: I have possible found a potter that will make some pots with side slits as you have described. Could you describe the details such as ideal height, circumference and how far up the side the slit should extend. Much appreciated, Arnold From blweintraub1@earthlink.net Sun Jul 31 17:32:00 2005 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050731152611.06238130@pop.earthlink.net> From: Barbara Weintraub Subject: pots Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:31:48 -0600 Arnold wrote: >I have possible found a potter that will make some pots with side slits ... I had a potter throw an orchid pot for me. It's beautiful and functional with series of round holes running up the sides and more drainage holes on the bottom. The orchid is happy. She also made a matching bamboo pot without drainage holes. This is a great way to get what you want, support an artisan, and treat your plants. Leaf and Stone Barbara Weintraub Santa Fe, New Mexico leafandstone@earthlink.net nominally USDA zone 5b/6a From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 21:56:26 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: pots Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 01:56:24 +0000 >From: Arnold Trachtenberg >Reply-To: Pacific Bulb Society >To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: [pbs] pots >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:11:30 -0400 > >Alberto: > >I have possible found a potter that will make some pots with side slits >as you have described. > >Could you describe the details such as ideal height, circumference and >how far up the side the slit should extend. > >Much appreciated, >Arnold Dear Arnold and Barbara et al: I garden in what could be described as zone 9 in winter and zone 10 in summer. Finding pot increasingly bigger was a problem and they were hard to obtain in quantity. Besides all big ones were soft black plastic (although of good quality and long lasting). With time and tired of finding a problem where a possible solution to cultivation difficulties (BONSAI EFFECT) I unexpectedly started gathering used paint plastic buckets. These are the same here and in the States. They are 20 litres (say 5 gallon) and measure 30 cm (12 in) in diameter and 40 cm (16 in) tall. They are obtained in several colors but I use white for those plants that need cooler conditions and black for those that like it warmer. As for the slits (here my technical English may fail me) you can add a cutting disk to your electric driller and with this you can cut slits in even the thickest plastic. For the 5 gallon buckets I cut three vertical slits one third up the bucket’s height, from the bottom up and at the same time cutting 1 in or so fo the bottom itself to avoid any watering collecting at the bottom. As you see I do not use clay at all, because it is not good for warmth lliking plants, fragile and pretty expensive. Plastic buckets are cheap, standard in size and last at least 8 years in full sun before becoming brittle. Besides, they come with a lid that can be put in place to keep the plants dry in due course. Changes that have taken place since I started growing in such big containers are well beyond my wildest dreams so to speak because I started using them because some bulbs or clumps had grown tto big for most normal pots. No tonly they have grown imcomparably happier and healthier but unexpected effects have taken place: offsetting for the first time, flowering for the first time, SEED SETTING in plants that were regarded as sterile and amazing duration fo the flowering season (for instance, three or more months non stop in Mexican spp. of Zephyranthes, just to name a few).. Bob has made very interesting modifications to this when repotting part of Mary Sue’s collection and there is a thorough account of it in a back IBSA Bulletin. I pity the poor potter but I am sure you can obtain these used paint buckets in the States very cheaply. Although I read with great interest posting by great experts like Jane and John L. it is not very easy to apply their findings literally because of our year round rains. We have to make special provision to avoid them killing many dormant bulbs. Hopefully this is clear enough. My pleasure to make any further explanation. All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Sun Jul 31 21:56:28 2005 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: pots Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 01:56:27 +0000 >From: Arnold Trachtenberg >Reply-To: Pacific Bulb Society >To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: [pbs] pots >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:11:30 -0400 > >Alberto: > >I have possible found a potter that will make some pots with side slits >as you have described. > >Could you describe the details such as ideal height, circumference and >how far up the side the slit should extend. > >Much appreciated, >Arnold Dear Arnold and Barbara et al: I garden in what could be described as zone 9 in winter and zone 10 in summer. Finding pot increasingly bigger was a problem and they were hard to obtain in quantity. Besides all big ones were soft black plastic (although of good quality and long lasting). With time and tired of finding a problem where a possible solution to cultivation difficulties (BONSAI EFFECT) I unexpectedly started gathering used paint plastic buckets. These are the same here and in the States. They are 20 litres (say 5 gallon) and measure 30 cm (12 in) in diameter and 40 cm (16 in) tall. They are obtained in several colors but I use white for those plants that need cooler conditions and black for those that like it warmer. As for the slits (here my technical English may fail me) you can add a cutting disk to your electric driller and with this you can cut slits in even the thickest plastic. For the 5 gallon buckets I cut three vertical slits one third up the bucket’s height, from the bottom up and at the same time cutting 1 in or so fo the bottom itself to avoid any watering collecting at the bottom. As you see I do not use clay at all, because it is not good for warmth lliking plants, fragile and pretty expensive. Plastic buckets are cheap, standard in size and last at least 8 years in full sun before becoming brittle. Besides, they come with a lid that can be put in place to keep the plants dry in due course. Changes that have taken place since I started growing in such big containers are well beyond my wildest dreams so to speak because I started using them because some bulbs or clumps had grown tto big for most normal pots. No tonly they have grown imcomparably happier and healthier but unexpected effects have taken place: offsetting for the first time, flowering for the first time, SEED SETTING in plants that were regarded as sterile and amazing duration fo the flowering season (for instance, three or more months non stop in Mexican spp. of Zephyranthes, just to name a few).. Bob has made very interesting modifications to this when repotting part of Mary Sue’s collection and there is a thorough account of it in a back IBSA Bulletin. I pity the poor potter but I am sure you can obtain these used paint buckets in the States very cheaply. Although I read with great interest posting by great experts like Jane and John L. it is not very easy to apply their findings literally because of our year round rains. We have to make special provision to avoid them killing many dormant bulbs. Hopefully this is clear enough. My pleasure to make any further explanation. All the best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From msittner@mcn.org Sun Jul 31 22:55:03 2005 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050731194321.029659f0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Eucomis Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:53:43 -0700 Dear All, Cameron McMaster has added some information to the wiki describing some widely different habitats for Eucomis autumnalis. There are photographs illustrating the plants, some in habitat. He also described the habitat for Eucomis comosa. Hmm. seepage areas and stream banks. No wonder mine in my dry summer garden is not thriving. Today Cameron sent some pictures of Eucomis regia which is the winter rainfall species. He saw plants blooming July 22 in the Nieuwoudtville reserve among dolertic boulders. My husband and I saw these in August 2001 in the same place I am sure. Cameron's pictures are better so I removed my picture from that time. This species seems to be thriving there and are very robust. When we saw them there weren't so many. There is also another photo from Cameron of the more usual smaller form. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Eucomis From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jul 31 22:56:28 2005 Message-Id: <42ED8F5A.3000704@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: pots Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:56:26 -0400 Alberto: Thanks for the insight. We have the same plastic buckets here which are used to transport laundry detergent and plaster for finishing walls after reconstruction. Arnold From susanann@sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 1 00:05:47 2005 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: pots Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:51:35 -0700 At 10:56 PM -0400 7/31/05, Arnold Trachtenberg wrote: >Alberto: > >Thanks for the insight. We have the same plastic buckets here which are >used to transport laundry detergent and plaster for finishing walls >after reconstruction. **I looked at my pot situation, too, and discovered some big black plastic buckets with no drainage holes. My husband bought them containing something he uses, but I haven't discovered what, yet. Good possibilities. -- susan hayek, North Coast of CA, USA, zone 9b